The World of Layonara  Forums

Author Topic: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?  (Read 343 times)

lonnarin

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2008, 12:36:08 pm »
Honestly I've seen more rust monsters on quests than goblins, orcs and kobolds combined.  Perhaps on par with the number of humans, including all NPCs.  So much so that it appears that destroying gear seems to be an end within itself, vs the plot item defense which just didnt hold water.  If the rust monsters were so vital to the quests I was on, they wouldnt just appear out of nowhere, eat your gear and vanish for the rest of the quest.  There's be some follow-up, perhaps a nest of younglings to feel sorry for, or some evil druid who actually lures them there in your way.  But to just consistantly keep seeing the little buggers around every corner with about an 85% probability gets redundant.  

Bjorn always has a backup hammer and ranged weapon now not because he fears the rust monster, but because he cant go on a single bloody quest without one popping up out of nowhere.  That's not fear, that's just redundant fatalism.  It's like making a habit of taking a bee bee gun with you to the car because every time you leave the house the same blasted pidgeon poops on your head.  Then the one time your friend says "you're crazy man, there is no pidgeon out to get you, it was just that one time", you peer out, look both ways, see nothing, breathe a sigh of relief, look up, and it poops in your eye, cackling madly.

If the goal is just to eat gear then, why not do it in a less cliche manner?  Sunder a weapon, have your NPC boss and the target make their checks and potentially shatter their uberpwnage sword of plus1337ness in a way which furthers RP with animosity for the villain.  Or thieving drow buggers with disarm who sneak up and STEAL you items.  There just cant be a corrosive rustmonster for every single situation, can there?  If the party is rushing and bashing too much, why not add TRAPS?  Rogues like traps, it makes them feel like they didnt waste 3 skillpoints/level.

Also, what's with the rust monsters always making critical morale checks when "hunting" parties of adventurers who outnumber and outsize them many times over?  Will a rust monster REALLY be hungry enough that it will lunge into a suicidal frenzy trying to eat people bigger than its own head?  Seems more likely the poor little bugger will shriek and flee, or at the very least back up and snarl, vs 100% of the time flinging itself into the gaping jaws of death just so it can lick your mithral on last time before it dies.  This to me is just as ludicrous an interaction as a lone lvl 13 dark elf trying to raid Hempstead with a fireball spell.  I mean, yeah sure he could kill maybe one or two people, but his death is assured after that point. If suddenly your party's druid cant even make a check to try to calm a rust monster, the party backs up and it follows them, attempting to kill all 10+ adventurers in a bull rush of inevitable self-termination, then there's something fishy about its appearance.  A creature the size of a small dog that attempts to eat several beings many times its size and number would be flat out too stupid to survive extinction for more than a few generations.  Keep in mind, plenty of larger monsters out there dont even have armor for it to threaten!  To most of the ecosystem, the rust monster is just a wee feeder cricket in a pond of bullfrogs!

*walks around the corner* ARGH! AGAIN! *shakes his fist at the invisible air*  That's it, I'm making a monk!
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2008, 04:47:52 pm »
**tentavily raises his hand**

I've never used/inserted a rust monster in either my PnP or Layo campaigns (though I think one module I ran had a rust monster built-in). I prefer the old fashioned (and opposite) method of killing players: treasure on one side of the room, adventurers on the other, nigh-unkillable monster in the middle. Like taking candy from a baby. Adventurers can't resist their inherent lust for goodies.

*wicked grin*
 

jan

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2008, 06:14:17 pm »
I dunno about every one , but to me it seems a fighter/ front liner will only run from a rust-monster IF they have encountered one before .
Policy states we are not allowed to read the floaty texts above monsters , so If you never met one ( and lost equipment to it ) you wouldn't run .
This of-course results in front liners that meets a rust-monster , to lose ( or have a big chance to ) part of their gear .
Would be nice if this was the case for other characters as-well .
How to fill this in would be interesting to say the least ;)
 

merlin34baseball

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2008, 06:24:04 pm »
Termites of Destruction
Cloth Eating Moths of Doom
Leather Eating Swamp Slimes
Wood Warping Humidity Pixies
 

lonnarin

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2008, 06:30:16 pm »
Lasagna of ever-staining *nods*

Or maybe just a big fat dwarf with mithral teeth who eats all your gear just because he needed more iron in his diet.

Honestly, my favorite armor breakers in Fantasy gaming have to be the Warhammer Barfing Trolls.  They can walk right up to regiments of elite chaos champions and upchuck all their neigh invincible armor to sludge, then whallop them with double their strength.
 

vgn

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2008, 07:13:22 pm »
Quote from: Script Wrecked

Quote from: vgn

What good are rust monster?

1. Rust monsters are scary as was pointed out by the last post.
2. It can be quite amusing to a not so wholesome character to watch a big dumb fighter lose his sword or armor.

If its not your sword/armor thats just been lost. Schadenfreude is hardly something we should be encouraging.


This server allows evil characters. As someone who has an evil character with a very twisted sense of humor I can assure you he would find this quite funny. People need to remember the difference between player and character. I understand that can be hard sometimes when it involves something precious, but we have very few actually unique items in Layo. Just about everything is replaceable and in great quantities as is attested to by the failed economy.

Quote from: Script Wrecked

Quote from: vgn

3. The loss can lead to all kind of RP.
a. The guy in number 2 can make fun of the fighter and make a nice enemy or at lease get pummeled a bit.
b. The guy that lost X, now can go buy a new one or, perhaps through some persuasion get some friends to feel sorry and replace it.

Or not. The system is not set up for the easy replacement of lost items. These items were hard to get the first time, and will be hard again to replace.

Having to replace something you had is demoralising.


It may be demoralizing, but hardly that large of an issue. "Things" in the world of layonara are ridiculously easy to get. Perhaps you as the player or perhaps it is your character, do not have the "right" connections, but just about everything is attainable as far as I can tell. Other than a few very rare drop items, there are few things I have though I wish I could have and didn't just go out and buy or acquire.

Quote from: Script Wrecked

Quote from: vgn

Even if you "specialize" in a certain weapon, it really is not very bright to never have alternatives. Carry an extra wooden club. Improvise and whip out a fishing pole.

So, are you suggesting people carry around more equipment in their inventories?


Yes actually I am. Don't play the "inventory/server lag" card on being smart about equipping your character. There is a big difference between an extra wooden club in your pack and 5 boxes of random junk you've managed to collect.

Quote from: Script Wrecked

Quote from: vgn

If it's a GM related thing, don't get locked into mechanics. Just because you are in a barren stock "dungeon/cave" room, doesn't always mean it is empty. Make sure to ask if there is anything around. Maybe there is a table, break the leg off. Maybe there are some logs/sticks. I'm sure any GM would grant you a basic wooden club to act as that table leg or log. Can't hit anything with a plain old club?? Well, of course you brought along a mage or cleric right? Just whip up a GMW and it's a super club.

This sort of improv is hard to do in the middle of combat.


I don't believe anyone, especially not me, said that you would do this DURING combat. I fail to see why if you see a monster on a quest you need to run up and attack it without strategy first. Only a sick GM is going to just drop a rust monster on a party with no warning. If you claim you don't know it's there until practically on top of it and then it's too late, then I say why wasn't your rogue/ranger/scout out in front finding out what was down the road/tunnel/cavern. Seriously, I have been a GM in PnP and here on layo and *IF* I decided to put a rust monster somewhere and the party went blindly running through tunnels, got into a fight and lost some equipment, I would have little sympathy. Consider this a warning should I get elected to GM again, if you blindly run all over the place you likely won't like my quests.

Perhaps a lot of my views do come because I have a PnP background, even if I haven't played in over a decade. But, being a role play server, I think people need to remember, a quest should not be about the "race" and it should be more about the story. Granted once combat has started in the nwn engine it is very difficult to just "pause" for discussions. But leading up to combat, there is just as much time as there is in the world of PnP.
 

jan

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2008, 10:11:13 pm »
I don't care about all those well formulated responses .

Fact is : rust-monsters do exist and will turn up in the moments you cant use them .

Make them destroy jewelry and other items made with metals , just like they destroy weapons and shield .

" the bloody thing eat my ring / amulet "

I think that would make the monsters even less desirable to each and everyone encounter them .

putting those in the front-line up for main-victims is already been done too much ....perhaps it's time to build something that directly attacks the ones that are hiding behind the front-line with nothing better to do *shrugs*
 

lonnarin

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2008, 12:08:23 am »
Quote from: jan


putting those in the front-line up for main-victims is already been done too much ....perhaps it's time to build something that directly attacks the ones that are hiding behind the front-line with nothing better to do *shrugs*


Dark elven assassains with shadowdancer levels!  *insane grin*  Magekillers with SR!
 

lonnarin

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2008, 12:19:58 pm »
Just lost Bjorn's mithral hammer last night to yet another one.  Yet again, the bloody things RIGHT AFTER A DOOR.  So you open the door, bam, rust.  What exactly was I supposed to learn from this?  How does this increase ANYBODY'S enjoyment of the game?  It doesn't, at all.  Now I have to save up for months and months and waste time I could have spent RPing with the orphanage, exploring distant lands, etc... all because a Rust monster appears to like to play peek-a-boo.

Why the cheap placement?  How come every time I see a rust monster its right on the area transition, the doorway or around the corner?  Why this obsession with trapping people with no chance to spot them?

I call shennanigans.  And I want all these vile little fiends removed from the game entirely.  They serve no other purpose than to infuriorate gamers and make them feel like not playing anymore.  What's the point?  And now with the trickle-up economy, and adamantium sealed tighter than a drum for all but the lvl 25+ers who dont even play any more, odds arent very likely I'll ever get another hammer of even adamantium, let alone mithral.  Great.  At the very least there could have been a gap between the rust monster and the door... or maybe a family of rust monsters.  But no, this little bugger seems to live with air elementals and goblins who'd see it as food, and its habitat consists of the 5 sqft area directly in front of a door.  Behind the door is a long corridor that leads to mnonsters that would eat it.  what gives?


GGGAAAAAH I HATE RUST MONSTERS!!!!
 

ShiffDrgnhrt

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2008, 12:24:05 pm »
You know...  It wouldnt be so bad if Rust mOnsters gave you what they stole from you when you kill them...  Oh!  What a Novel Idea!  Kill it fast enough and you can get yer stuff back!
 

Hellblazer

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2008, 12:36:32 pm »
I have to agree, being on that trip yesterday where bjorn lost it, the rust monster was very ill placed, not to mention that that room is a death trap. Got killed by two arrows, in that very same room, while being stuck and unable to move.
 
 Edits: all in all though, I do love the new areas. Great work.
 

Chongo

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2008, 01:03:57 pm »
Okay, both a concession and a criticism on that one.
 
 First, the line of sight is funky in there and I'll fully admit that I didn't anticipate it being so darn hard to see around.  It feels like something changed in line of sight.  Also, those goblins somehow ended up a lot tougher then I'd wanted.  So, sorry.  There's a patch coming and I am responsible for not recognizing how difficult it would be to see in there.
 
 That said, your tone and assumption isn't exactly appreciated Lonn.  It's always humorous to read what you write but the constant undercurrent of divisive sentiment, if not direct comment, gets a bit old.  There are no rust monsters placed behind doors, no rust monsters placed 'right around the corner' or 'right at the transition'.  It was a funky line of sight I hadn't planned on.  I apologize - but if it weren't for a bunch of headless chickens scurrying about firing arrows at every creature down hallways then maybe the rust monsters a hallway away with no other creatures placed nearby wouldn't have come scurrying towards us.
 
 Furthermore, on deathtraps Hellblazer... let's remember we're talking about a cleric-less group of mostly sub 20's fighting level 26 creatures.  I'll take responsibility for leading folks into a place too difficult, but personal accountability...
 
 Lonn, as for the trickle-up economy, I kinda understand how you feel in some regards.  +3 is perhaps over-protected and Dorg and I were planning on having a conversation about that this week.  And yeah, we have a lot of guilds and high epics that have accumulated a *lot*.  So it's a bit off, sure.  Did I appreciate your snide remark when I offered you an immediate mithril replacement?  Not really.  It seemed like a mostly ooc temper tantrum.  Seriously - I get it.  Some things seem like they've been so retrograded to meet the highest common denominator that it seems that spirit has been lost in the face of economics.  All I can say is that I've been looking into the very same thing.  But as funny as your posts are, they are divisive.  And I'm not a fan.
 
 That said, I'd be a bit upset too if a rusty got my favorite item.  So sorry it happened.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2008, 01:14:31 pm »
Don`t get me wrong Chongo, the map is great, and yes we were without clerics. But when I got killed, a cleric wouldn`t have been able to do much. I was stuck against a well, undable to click to move due to not having a proper line of sight, and something was preventing me from moving away by driving her away. I was right in plain sight of the archer who downed me with two arrows. Granted Sil is only level 17, but had I been abel to move in between the 15 seconds at least (my estimation of the time frame) I would probably have been able to move away enough to get the archer to aim at someone else.
 

lonnarin

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2008, 01:27:13 pm »
"Constant undercurrent of divisive sentiment"?  Wow... I am truly sorry that you feel that way. I'm sorry if you don't like my tone.  From my side of things we open a door and a rust monster is there.  This is keeping with the theme of the thread.  I am not calling you any names or insulting you, just saying what I saw.  Maybe if it travelled to the door from many corridors down, I dont know.  I only saw what I did from my perspective.

I also apologize if thee were any snide comments last night when you offered me a free +3 weapon, though I do not remember any at the time.  I was mostly upset that I had lost my beloved hammer, and did not yell anything about any other topic than the loss of my hammer.  I rejected your offer of a free new weapon not out of spite or rage, just because it might be considered muling to just hand a person a +3 weapon, despite the situation.  There was no OOC temper tantrum and I am rather sorry that you saw it as such.  I strive to be IC at all times, and am rather insulted that you would accuse me of OOC temper tantrums.

That being said, my opinion and point of view still stands on rust monsters and their placement.  Every time I have ever encountered one, its either manually placed around a corner or appears behind a door.  This is no dig on you, just me expressing my disdain for rust monsters that pop up out of nowhere.  Maybe the trigger set one off nearby and it heard the death screams of the monsters we had just fought?  I dont know.  In any case, in that dungeon, you open a door and a rust monster is there.

I am entirely saddened that you view this as an attack on you or divisive or that any of my actions were OOC ranting in any way, or that I am a constant source of devisiveness.  Honestly if you had such personal opinions about me, it might rather have been better handled in a PM rather than here in the open, as the only thing I was talking about was rust monster placement and their function in game.  Again, I am sorry if my tone or comments seem a dig on you, but they were not.  And some of the stuff you just said I took very personally.  I just don't like rust monsters and how they pop up right behind the door.

Obviously something I did or said made you angry, so again I'm sorry.  It was not my intent to tick you off.  I don't hate you, I just hate rust monsters.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2008, 01:32:22 pm »
Don`t get me wrong Chongo, the map is great, and yes we were without clerics. But when I got killed, a cleric wouldn`t have been able to do much. I was stuck against a wall, unable to click to move due to not having a proper line of sight, and something was preventing me from moving away by driving her away. I was right in plain sight of the archer who downed me with two arrows. Granted Sil is only level 17, but had I been able to move in between the 15 seconds at least (my estimation of the time frame) I would probably have been able to move away enough to get the archer to aim at someone else.
 
 With Jennara (34), Abiorn (30), Wren(25), Bjorn (20); it only left, Aerimor (18 ), sil'via (17) and Timulty (15) under the 20`s. Felix (the lowest levels in all of us having died and respawned earlier in the mountains.). With that I`d say that the levels were pretty much on target, but the lack of a cleric probably squewed thigns up. Although, even with that, it`s really the fact that i was stuck and unable to get a good angle to see, that killed Sil'via.
 

Harlas Ravelkione

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2008, 01:53:38 pm »
Please keep it civil everyone. This thread has been constructive thus far and it would be great if it stayed that way.

Remember that this textual media is far from being perfect when it comes to describe how you feel about something. Things easily get twisted and understood in ways no one ever intended. Yes, we're back at the old perception-beast that pops up every now and then.
 

Dorganath

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2008, 02:14:45 pm »
Agreed with Harlas' sentiment.  

In addition, this only underscores how important it is, when unintended and unanticipated things go badly, to take a pause, talk and listen most importantly before going on a public rant.  Work with the people who can adjust things to be more reasonable rather than...well...*points up*

Having said all this:  

@lonnarin, this is now a confirmed and admitted bug/design flaw/whatever.  File for a replacement item.  Show proof, via screen shots or logs, of the lost item, and we'll refund it to you.
 

LordCove

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2008, 02:19:36 pm »
Jennara (34), Abiorn (30), Wren(25), Bjorn (20); it only left, Aerimor (18 ), sil'via (17) and Timulty (15) under the 20`s. Felix (the lowest levels in all of us having died and respawned earlier in the mountains.).


Umm... where was this?

Don't get me wrong.. .I just always thought there was a grey line on lvl 30+'s traveling with lvl 5's?

My party got pulled not so long back.. mainly because certain areas hadn't been balanced since V3.. which was no problem. We didn't know... nor did the team... so no biggie.

But it was highlighted that having a lvl 14 with us when our highest lvl was 19 was a "not" so good idea. Because they basically had access to high lvl drops which they wouldn't normally.

So. Er.

There was an exception here? Was it a quest?
Just curious is all folks.  :)
 

Hellblazer

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2008, 02:32:50 pm »
without giving out to much ooc info on the location.. it's on west. And it was to show the new area trip made by Abiorn with a gm present in gm mode. An area that is accessible to any one, but oh so dangerous *grins*
 

Dorganath

Re: Rust monsters, are they really necessary?
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2008, 02:32:53 pm »
I'll let Chongo comment on the rest, as there have been no level recommendations set for these new areas (yet), however...

Quote from: LordCove
But it was highlighted that having a lvl 14 with us when our highest lvl was 19 was a "not" so good idea. Because they basically had access to high lvl drops which they wouldn't normally.

The more accurate statement here has nothing to do with the 14-19 split and has everything to do with the level 14 characters getting access to creatures who drop from the "High" loot list. It wouldn't have mattered if they were all level 14.
 

 

anything