Screeching trollocs of the great forest

[jrizz]

Thanks Milty you hit it on the head. Very clear and easy to understand the challenge and the solutions.

[Makashi]

Like the Thunder Peaks?

Or is it that you want to have a more melee-oriented place that is solo-able by the non-caster set?

Thunder peaks was a great place to travel, and still is. I like the changes that were implemented to the areas (except for the fact a level 30 fighter has no place to go alone) as it does usually wind up with a varied class group travelling up there.

And the rift, again is a good set of areas.

I would prefer a place where a good group non casters roughly 25-30 can go, but also a place that is do-able, on your own (even if they are separate places). Basically the ability for an epic fighter to be able to fight something on their own, without feeling you have achieved nothing after.

Getting back to the Trollocs - My personal opinion on this, is that their AC/Concealment/DR all combined makes it very tough for a fighter to take down. If the DR could some how be lowered, or the AC bumped down maybe this could help?

[SteveMaurer]

As a player of a pure spellcaster (Darthirae) and a pure fighter (Rottie), I think I have a reasonably balanced perspective on the spellcaster vs fighter "debate".   And it's this: if you want to cry about unbalanced classes, the place where AD&D 3.5 completely falls down is in neither wizards nor fighters.  It's the "CODzilla" - the "Cleric or Druid" superbuilds: very high HP, good BAB, spellcasting in armor, along with death spells, and for druids, gross out transforms.  Order of the Stick has a number of cartoons making fun of the imbalance.

Insofar as complaints about wizards being able to solo where fighters can't, I simply do not see that being the case.  Darthi has been stuck ever since her creation buffing fighters.  She can temporarily disable an enemy, but can't finish anything off.    Originally, I wanted to make her a conjurer, but the absurd XP penalties for summons is simply too great, assuming her spawns can win at all.   I've had occasional wins, but largely, her soloing consists of invisible CNR collection - to the point where she is now simply in the habit of walking around invisible everywhere.

Rottie, on the other hand, is able to comfortably solo, getting 2,000 to 3,000 XP a pop cleaning out 2 1/2 levels of the Red Lights plus the topside (not to mention 300-500 True in profit each time he does so).   He is also making use of the alchemy rules to make stink bombs which are surprisingly effective at the low to mid levels, bull's strength potions, and has more dusts than he knows what to do with.

In fact, if you look at it from a neutral point of view, the real advantage a wizard like Darthi has, is in NON-soloing.  A 9th level fighter can contribute basically nothing to a team averaging level 20, but a 9th level wizard can still add a few welcome buffs, and tag along invisibly with a pocket full of heal-moderate potions.    It's not exactly "kiting", because she does contribute (and have saved more high level PCs's asses than I think even they realize), but it also lets her get all that XP that she missing out by being unable to solo.

(I would also say that one reason why wizards are more powerful in NwN than they are in PnP is because the spawns are so predictable: when you know exactly what to prepare for each specific area, it makes your spell selection choices far easier.)

But my final comment is this...   why exactly do you care what the balance is?   I don't.    This is a RP server.   My third PC is the model of broken inefficiency.  I've been trying to level him up to 4th before "introducing" him, but because he can't wear armor, he's already died 7 times, mostly in one-on-one duels against kobolds.   But that doesn't make any difference.  He's fun to play anyway.   And will be more so when he makes his big RP debut.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

*Taps Steve on the shoulder*  Mind your word usage...

(and have saved more high level PCs's BUTTS than I think even they realize)

[SteveMaurer]

*Taps Steve on the shoulder*  Mind your word usage...

I was referring to their "donkeys", which is what all those high-STR fighters really are to Darthi, at least in carrying weighty goods.


*rolls bluff check*

[jrizz]

@Steve what level is Darthi? I ask because the imbalance does not really show it self until higher levels (18+). And of course it is in the higher levels where your PC will spend the majority of its life, of course there are the few out there that have stayed a low to mid level for years and years, but I am really addressing the general population. Believe me when Darthi gets up to high levels she will be smoking areas and the fighters around her will be clean up crew (that is if her build is not broken).

[jadewillow]

As long as we are on the topic (and anybody cares) here is my take on the relative power of the classes in Layo at the higher levels.

1. Druid
2. Sorcerer
3. Wizard
4. Cleric
5. Monk
6. Paladin
7. Barbarian
8. Ranger
9. Rogue
10. Fighter
11. Bard

This of course is soloing and single class. Nothing beats a Fighter, Wizard team in my mind.

Now the list would be completely different if we ranked classes based on their relative fun to play.

However, don't flame me on the topic.

[SteveMaurer]

@Steve what level is Darthi? I ask because the imbalance does not really show it self until higher levels (18+). And of course it is in the higher levels where your PC will spend the majority of its life, of course there are the few out there that have stayed a low to mid level for years and years, but I am really addressing the general population. Believe me when Darthi gets up to high levels she will be smoking areas and the fighters around her will be clean up crew (that is if her build is not broken).

Admittedly, Darthi herself has not gotten up to the ability to cast 9th level spells, but as she works well in higher level groups, she's seen the power dynamics.   And honestly, I still don't see what you are talking about.

Take Vrebel and Tralek, a fighter/combat-spellcaster team.   They don't keep track of kills Legolas and Gimli style, but if I had to guess, they'd be about even.   Tralek makes use of his PWK, but as those are 9th level, his supply is limited.   So it falls to Vrebel to do a huge amount of the combat, while Tralek uses a sword as well, attacking from the sides.   He keeps his high power spells in reserve for safety.

A lot of the success is also a product of their partnership.    Vrebel will charge, try to arrange himself as the chief aggressor, until he is surrounded on all sides, which allows Tralek to use his PWK most efficiently.  And safely.  Soloing, Tralek would have to be both bait and executioner, which is dangerous even with Premonition up, since a single tag will abort a spell.

I guess what you are not seeing is the limited nature of the spells you get as a wizard.   Sure, you have a great weapon, but your ammo is extremely limited.   You have to be constantly concerned about when to use your highest power spells, because you don't get any more for a long time.    I've had situations where Darthi has run out, and times when she died because she was saving a spell for something -really- bad.   And the rest delays only go up as you gain in level.

And that doesn't even account for the Breach on Hit that the Screeching Keepers of the Broken Branch and the Earth Gensai, use.   Or the dispel golems in the Deep.  All which strip a mage of all their protection.    (The last time she died, Tralek died right alongside her, while Vrebel hadn't even been scratched.)   Or the No Magic Zones, like in the rift and Misted, the numerous No Rest zones, or the wild magic areas, one of which turned Darthi into a chicken.

But really, if you think playing an arcane spellcaster is a total cakewalk, I'd encourage you to try it out yourself.  It never hurts to see the other side of the fence.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Heh, part of J's argument is from seeing and playing with some folks that play high-level spellcasters very efficiently, from maximizing stats and feat builds, to figuring out that perfect spell combo to clean up a group of monsters. I have also played a pure spell-caster and a couple of fighters. My 20th level sorcerer could solo far more than either of my fighters when they hit 20th. I'm not going to divulge the spell-combos I used or what are currently some of the most useful combos available, but suffice it to say, there are only two things that held my sorcerer back from a full-magic area: Not having a high enough DC on her death spells, or SR/magic-immunity.

Of course, I whole-heartedly subscribe to the general axiom of combat RP: "He who has the most hit-points wins." And yeah, I've seen sorcerers (and of course clerics) with more HPs than fighters.

[jrizz]

Thank Milty once again very eloquent.

[ycleption]

@Steve
It's generally recognized that melee classes are better than casters at low-medium level... and that's really not the point of the thread. Beginning somewhere in the late teens early twenties, casters can solo groups that melee classes can't take one-on-one; I don't think anybody is really disputing that, the disagreement is whether that's a problem and what to do about it if it is.

And that doesn't even account for the Breach on Hit that the Screeching Keepers of the Broken Branch and the Earth Gensai, use. Or the dispel golems in the Deep. All which strip a mage of all their protection.

Sure, these things are deadly... but they're even more deadly to fighters than to casters. A caster can face dispell-on-hit creatures from a distance, and generally are much less affected by them than melee classes. An number of times I've seen parties get dispelled, and the fighters (who are up at the front), go down in seconds, but the casters hanging back have enough time to recast or use a scale, or a potion of invisibility, or just cast some spells and kill the things.

Or the No Magic Zones, like in the rift and Misted, the numerous No Rest zones, or the wild magic areas, one of which turned Darthi into a chicken.

And, playing Drexia, I've loved those places. Unfortunately, the few areas where melee classes can excell only go so far, and some of them (the new thunder peaks), would not be managable without casters.

I agree with you completely that trying to "balance" classes is a futile effort - making the world a little kinder to melee classes is another matter. I am not a fan of the "balanced party," or making most areas encourage them. I love fighting with whoever I happen to find through RP at that particular time, and it really bugs me that to get xp for Drexia I have to find people of certain classes to party with (and I count myself lucky I have a few people who are often on-line who are generous with their time to help my characters out). My favorite mode of adventuring is small groups - 2-3 people, and I really really wish that there were more areas of appropriate difficulty that also gives xp for level 20+ meleers to travel like that. I can think of plenty of spots that Drexia and a similar level caster could go to get xp (although in general the caster has to be level 25 for Drexia to be able to contribute), but very very few for melee characters (and none that are very big, or that give as much xp as places Drexia could go with a caster). Yes, this is an RP world, and in general I don't mind that my character does not have very much power relative to other classes... but sometimes it gets frustrating how little she can do without casters help, and how little she can contribute in places where high DR are standard.

I realize that I know nothing about game design/balancing, and that every change to make things doable for small, non-balanced, non-omptimized groups is probably an invitation for xp farming by those who like to travel in bigger balanced optimized groups... So I'm not suggesting by any means that there's an easy fix, nor do I mean to critisize the people who have put a lot of hard work into building the creatures and areas that are currently in the game. But I do think it at least needs to be acknowledged how wide the gap between classes ability to deal with those areas is.

[Lord Dark]

Tralek is just one example. Some may not be there yet, but wizards and sorcerers are most likely the most powerful classes. I have seen what they can do and they are not just limited to PWK, they have pretty powerful summons to take the hits until the player can find the combination of what defensive and offensive spells to use. Epic mages can use epic ward which bump their DR long enough where they can run in, while hasted, and throw tons of spells such as thunderclap that knock bad guys down, and then PWK them so there's maybe one, two, or three left, and then finish those off with a Wail or Bracar's storm.

Fighters? Well, they get up there to take the hits but by the time they get a round of attacks off, all the enemies are dead. But when I am with a mage that kills all the enemies off before I get to them, I try to remember that they're lowering the risk of me dieing in hand to hand combat.

I think this topic is so touchy now because we're paying too much attention to power building and leveling instead of just playing the game and having fun. I don't remember anything in the past that analyzes the server so much to where it points out all the flaws which can make the game seem unfair and not fun. I don't mind playing a mage-dependent character, and I do appreciate wizards/sorcerers for supplying the magic that allows me to go out into the higher-leveled areas and stay alive.

[SteveMaurer]

@Steve
It's generally recognized that melee classes are better than casters at low-medium level... and that's really not the point of the thread. Beginning somewhere in the late teens early twenties, casters can solo groups that melee classes can't take one-on-one; I don't think anybody is really disputing that, the disagreement is whether that's a problem and what to do about it if it is.

They are more powerful on this server specifically because of rules designed to highlight the differences.   I was rereading Conan the Barbarian recently, and noticed that a lot of his tactics would have been considered "luring" by Layo rules.

But even then, I'll be happy to match my munchkineering against anybody's.   While, you are right that in the mid-20s, wizards are more powerful, the deadliest classes in the end are the fighters.

Vrebel, for instance, has the ability (depending on what he's buying) to be the deadliest PC vs monsters in the game.   At level 32, his Native 18 STR, bought up 8 times to 26, plus 4 levels of Great Strength (plus the other reqs he can get as a fighter), will qualify him to buy Devastating Critical (the fighter's answer to PWK).  Before any STR mods from rings, every time he crits with anything, the victim will have to make a Fort save vs DC 41 or die.   Given that he has Great Cleave and improved crit, I can easily see him wade into a group of Trollocs, and cut down half with a single swipe.  And he'll get to do that constantly.  With everything.  Always on. Magic area or not.

Or Razerem (or other Duelist), with any kind of decent INT bonus, including INT increasing items, will have a AC in the 50s.  (Or maybe higher.)  Simply on account of Canny Defense allowing epic duelists x2 their INT bonus to add to their AC.

Or some paladins, who, with great smiting, can get a minimum of 400 HP damage in a single blow.

Now please understand, I'm not accusing either of these players of being power gamers.   Buying STR for your fighter is not only efficient, it's in character.   But if your enjoyment of the game revolves around the power of your PC, know that at the very end, wizards are not as powerful as you might think.

Sure, these things are deadly... but they're even more deadly to fighters than to casters. A caster can face dispell-on-hit creatures from a distance, and generally are much less affected by them than melee classes.

My experience has been different.  Melee classes have armor, undispellable enchantments, and massive HP.  That usually wins out.   But that is generally in mixed parties.

Yes, this is an RP world, and in general I don't mind that my character does not have very much power relative to other classes... but sometimes it gets frustrating how little she can do without casters help, and how little she can contribute in places where high DR are standard.

Actually, with Rottie's higher levels in mind, I do have some suggestions:

• Create "moderate" and "high level" equivalents to the magic potions and other things fighters can use at low levels.    I'd love to be able to craft an "Alchemists Inferno" potion that put a flame on a weapon for several hours.   Or an equivalent to some of the higher level spell effects, achieved non-magically.
• Consider a different form of nerfing Devastating Crit, rather than the current all-or-nothing approach.  Allow it at lower levels, but decrease the DC a bit.
• Add more defenses to insta-kills - but not permanent ones.  I'd love a Gem of Lifesaving (that a nonspellcaster could make) that would deflect an instant magic death effect, but ruin the gem in the process.   That would significantly decrease the "have to have a spellcaster to go there" effect for melee types.

[miltonyorkcastle]

the deadliest classes in the end are the fighters.

I'd agree if we were on any other world where fighters could easily get their hands on items that grant permanent mind-attack immunity, death attack immunity, freedom, and big save boosters, that they would be the most powerful (mechanically) in the end. However, even the fighters that have gotten their hands on some of these things in Layo discover that you can't wear all of them at once, not to mention wearing these items take away from ability boosting items. A 35th level pure fighter with dev crit and all the buffs he can give himself against a fully buffed 35th level wizard/sorc/cleric/druid will get creamed on Layo. A single high level mind-affecting spell, thunderclap, or will-save vs death attack will do the trick. Without significant ranks in Spellcraft or some strangely high wisdom with will boosting feats (and even then), fighters just don't have the will-save to compete with a mage's spell DCs, and most don't have the reflex save to cut it either. And since a mage can hit the fighter before the fighter can even reach the mage, and use greater sanctuary so that the fighter can't even see the mage coming... you get the picture.

I won't argue with you that a dev crit fighter could potentially be a better monster killer than a mage, but without mage buffs, the fighter-types on Layo (with the exception of the paladin, perhaps) just don't have the saves to keep up with the spell DCs of epic mages and monsters.

Of course, all this is just to debate the manners in which you can "munchkin" out the full killing potential of a class. Ycleption and Lord Dark touched on what has already been mentioned in this thread, which is that we don't want to build encounters to cater to the most efficient builds and party combos, and that it can be fun to play the imbalances in the classes. I'm still in favor of making the epic mage a little more party-reliant, but I don't think the way to do that (for Layo) is to give fighters more access to magical gear and goods than is already IG. I think it's perfectly fine that there are areas which require mage/cleric buffs, just as there are areas that prevent the use of magic. If you want to visit those places (and not every place is like or should be like this), part of doing so is finding the right party.

[SteveMaurer]

A 35th level pure fighter with dev crit and all the buffs he can give himself against a fully buffed 35th level wizard/sorc/cleric/druid will get creamed on Layo.

I won't argue with you that a dev crit fighter could potentially be a better monster killer than a mage, but without mage buffs, the fighter-types on Layo (with the exception of the paladin, perhaps) just don't have the saves to keep up with the spell DCs of epic mages and monsters.

OK, so now Layo is not only not a RP server, or a mere PvM adventure server, it's a PvP server?    I beg to differ.   If you want to speak to effectiveness, PvM is where it is at, and a Fighter can more than hold his own when he gets into the mid to high 30s.   And even when talking PvP, I really don't think you can rank classes against each other like that, because it is simply too easy for people to be taken by surprise.

I'd agree if we were on any other world where fighters could easily get their hands on items that grant permanent mind-attack immunity, death attack immunity, freedom, and big save boosters, that they would be the most powerful (mechanically) in the end. However, even the fighters that have gotten their hands on some of these things in Layo discover that you can't wear all of them at once, not to mention wearing these items take away from ability boosting items.

But that hardly matters, since there is no monster in the game that threatens all those sorts of attacks.     Some do mind attacks, some do death attacks, some do knockdown (which kills mages as well), but they usually have one thing - and if you have the item, you aren't affected.  And if you don't, you don't go there.

And my goodness, Fighters should have -some- weakness, or else there is no reason to ever play a Monk - which also rival Mages when you get into the mid to upper 20s.

But clearly you must have struck a chord there, Milton, given the number of Thanks you are getting.   I personally don't see how the success or failure of any other PC affects me at all, but some people appear to be frustrated, so something should be done.   Just don't make it nerfing a class.   Apparently there aren't enough challenges for high level fighters, so that should be fixed.   (Really though?   Really??  Those evil monks (forget the name) have absurdly high level saves and can really be only taken down by tough fighters.   Is that not a challenging area?)

I guess when Darthi can solo like Rottie can, I might start thinking there is something to this.  But until then, I'm really not seeing it.  I get the sneaking suspicion that this isn't a complaint about relative class power at all  - but rather XP (or the lack of it) at high levels.  But that's a whole other kettle of fish.

[Makashi]

Getting off topic again.

Lets stop talking about builds and get back to what can be done for the target audiance we are talking about

25+ non casters, need a few areas, simple as that.

[miltonyorkcastle]

OK, so now Layo is not only not a RP server, or a mere PvM adventure server, it's a PvP server?

I didn't know we were discussing server styles. I thought we were just discussing the relative power of the classes.

and a Fighter can more than hold his own when he gets into the mid to high 30s

Jrizz has a fighter that is there, and he can't (at least not against a monster group appropriate to his level and not without mage buffs). I believe that was what started this thread.

since there is no monster in the game that threatens all those sorts of attacks.

I can think of quite a few that threaten at least two, and several that threaten all (death attacks, mind attacks, movement attacks), heh. Especially when we're talking about CR 25+ creatures. Besides, it's not usually that one creature can do all three, but that the group of enemies use various types of debilitating attacks, so you can't target one guy and get rid of the threat.

Getting off topic again.

Lets stop talking about builds and get back to what can be done for the target audiance we are talking about

25+ non casters, need a few areas, simple as that.

I'm not sure if that's really what this thread is about, getting more areas for non-casters, but as J started it, he can confirm or deny this. Personally, rather than making more areas that cater to/rely on certain classes, I'd like to make the current areas more friendly to the full gamut of party possibilities. Perhaps having more than one way a set of enemies can be defeated (i.e. there is an ancient trap that can be reactivated to kill all the monsters in a room; a group of warriors can beat down the monsters the old fashioned way; the center of the room has a crystal that channels the Al'Noth and when the right spell(s) is cast, it rains down lightning and fries all the enemies and maybe even friendlies that are too close.)

but rather XP (or the lack of it) at high levels. But that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Agreed and agreed.

[jrizz]

So just to give a little example I took my 31st level melee PC into Sharawood. Now Sharawood is something like a level 15 to 20 area I think. Wren is a good build (barbarian/fighter/rogue) with a good balance of AC, HP, DR, and Damage. I have seen wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and druids all at 18th level completely own Sharawood and the cave, solo. Wren almost got killed by the first group in the cave. If not for terrifying rage he would have died. I think this should lay to rest the balance between casters and melee and things they can do issues.

But really I am with Milty. I dont want to see areas that are solo areas for fighters. What I want to see is a stop to high level areas being solo-able to casters or easily done by caster groups. It was stated somewhere above in this thread (or the "what I want from Layo" thread) that the best way to do that is the have nasties in every group that just wont fall to mass death spells, stun spells, domination spells. Heck I would love to see those types of spells make some of the bad guys stronger, faster, and really mad at who cast them. Some bad guys that you just have to cut down with damage spells, blades, arrows, and fists. Then a good group mix will be needed to deal with them.

[s0ulz]

So just to give a little example I took my 31st level melee PC into Sharawood. Now Sharawood is something like a level 15 to 20 area I think. Wren is a good build (barbarian/fighter/rogue) with a good balance of AC, HP, DR, and Damage. I have seen wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and druids all at 18th level completely own Sharawood and the cave, solo. Wren almost got killed by the first group in the cave. If not for terrifying rage he would have died. I think this should lay to rest the balance between casters and melee and things they can do issues.

Sharawood should be CR25. Anyone with a mass disorientation spell (read: all casters) can flatfoot those weak-willed fighters and go to town on them.

[ycleption]

Sharawood scales by level, so I think it's inaccurate to say it's any given CR, or level range.

That said, I think it is a fairly representative area of where the problem comes in - in my experience there, Wren has done better there than any other melee character I've seen, by virtue of terrifying rage, so I think it speaks a lot that even he, at level 31 has difficulty.

Should the area be made "easier" overall? I don't really think so. It's a fun little area if I have a 25+ caster with me. Would I like to see parallel areas where things don't have high DR and maybe have high SR and death immunity? Absolutely.