Selling Price Inquiry

[Candor Ignifer]

[SIZE=13]I'm not sure where to post this, so I am going to post it here. Please do not take this as me griping but I am confused as to the issue with players lowering sales prices when it comes to gear they are selling to other PC's. I have noticed several incidents where a player is told they cannot drop the price that low because Layonara has a structured economy. Not only do I find this confusing, but uncompletely unjustified. Please allow me to explain. My first concern with a "structured economy" is that Layonara spawns monsters that endlessly produce gold. There is a continuous flow of gold into the possession of the PC's therefore, structure in an economical sense, cannot exist. I have also seen it stated that if a player has gear they wish to get rid of but cannot find a buyer, they should pawn it. I have to ask: Why?Players dedicate a significant amount of time procuring these items, so why should they not reap the rewards when they are no longer in need of the gear? In addition the above mentioned suggestion of pawning the items is a contradiction to the original issue of not lowering prices. I have in my possession a weapon that is priced at greater than 10,000 gold. The pawn shop offers me 50 gold for it. The pawn shop is lowering the price of the item, so why are players not allowed to do the same? At least with the players lowering prices the item stays in circulation, and the players are granted funds to put towards their upgrades. My last arguement is that I find nologic fto this reasoning at all. This is after all a Dungeons & Dragons game, and for all those that play D&D you know that you can sell used gear for half the sale price. This option seems to be closed in Layonara for some reason. I am not complaining or asking this rule to be changed. I am simply asking why this rule is the way it is. And the only reason I ask is because of this manner of "structured economy" it leaves players perpetually destitute.[/SIZE]

[GhostWhoWalks]

It's quite simply really.
 
   You're player A.
 
  You make goods, and you sell them for what you consider a fair price. It takes into consideration your time, your effort, the overall vaule of the goods in the grand view of the power of the item.
  Along comes player B, he can make that same item and does so. But knows that the only way to sell his sword is one of two ways, 1) At the same price as player A, or 2) To sell for cheaper than player A which would guarentee the sell generally.
   He obviously goes with option 2. Now in comes player C, he is forced into the same two options. So of course, he goes with 2 also.
  Now, player A and B have to either undercut C or give up trying to sell off thier goods which isn't fair.
   The cycle continues until items are worth next to nothing, which for all general purposes devalues the "worth" of gold.
   So what we do, is request players to be on equal terms so there is stability and equality in the market place. Are deals allowed to be made? Of course. But they should be reasonable and fair.
   What we end up with, is a market where people purchases items based off rep more than price. They go to Player A not because they have cheaper prices than B or C, but because A is more available or because A is known to deal fairly.
   Does that clarify for you?

[xXDenizeNXx]

sounds all good in theory but then you get people that go round in groups getting massive amounts of CNR items, Sit there and make high priced items on a production que like set up then sell the items until they are all like filthy rich. Sounds deplorable eh? But it happens, and alot of the time these same people then stand up and whine about how everyone is doing this..... or everyone is doing that... then it gets nerfed. That is why the folks doing the right thing are broke or the folks doing the right thing that are rich have worked darned hard to deserve it. The very small majority spoil it for the large majority, happens all the time in online games, think gold farming in Wow or EQ etc, spawn camping etc etc
I think the main overall reason is that big L WANTS us to craft it or go out and earn it, it is a more heroic way then profit sharing by selling commodities.

[Candor Ignifer]

In a way. I understand your argument, but by the definition of "economics" it is unavoidable. Taking your example, let me pose it to you in a sense of the real world. Gas stations for example. Gas stations are forced into this same game of price limbo that you have just addressed, but the gas stations have never offered free gas, nor have they ever dropped thier prices to a point that "devalues" gas. What it does do is force them to compete, creating what we like to call the "consumers' market". You use it every day, why do you go to one place and not another?There are many reasons, one: it is cheaper, two: you trust the staff, three: it is the most convenient at that particular moment. And so economy goes on. It does not collapse, and the value of items seems to be increasing rather than decreasing. The same can be applied in Layonara, regardless of what a PC's competition charges,PC's can never drop below a "bedrock price". No player would sell goods for less thantheir effort was worth.In doing so, what would happen is not a devaluation of all goods, but rather aprice competition that benefits the buyers as much as the sellers.

[GhostWhoWalks]

Ah, but this isn't the real world. It's a closed system with a limited quantity of people. In the real world the items are taxed and have an overhead. And where in many instances, the items in question are consumable.
  In games, for the most part. They don't/aren't.
   It costs very little to generate the items in Layonara, so there isn't a "low" ceiling. So players could dip well below the point that items are valued at.
  It's the same in almost all MMO's. Where price over time gets lower and lower because there is no overhead of note and players are generating hundreds of items a day/week because that's what's required to level.
  We're quite happy over all with the low ceilings we've placed, and it won't be changing any time soon. While many players can be trusted to sell for "fair and reasonable" prices. Others will sell for little to nothing just to make quick profit.

[aragwen]

Here is another perspective on it:
  Player A makes and sells 10 iron swords to 10 different players.
  Two months later Player B makes 10 iron sword as well, but he cant sell his, because the 10 players that bought from Player A two months ago are now all selling their swords they bought and selling them for much lower than what they initially paid, just because they want to get rid of it or want to get their hands on gold.
  The problem with this is that over time a lot of items are in circulation due to the fact that items dont break.
  If you think realistically, a blacksmith wont make hundreds of iron swords, he would have one or two in stock and perhaps make to order. In Layonara however a starting blacksmith will make hundreds of swords to advance his trade. Their is no way that all these swords he makes can and will be sold, so either donate it to the temples, war effort and sell for low amounts to the pawn broker.
  Selling to the pawn broker I see as recovering a small fee for your practise and not selling an item at real value. If you want to craft and you want to retain the value of the items you craft, you will sell a lot to the pawn or you will donate a lot to the pawn.
  Let me take Jacchri as an example. He recently made 25 mahogany heavy crossbows, now there is no way I will get 20 buyers at 10,000 gold. I will probably get a lot buying at 1,000, but I will not do that. So he donates some to the temple and sells some to the pawn to cover the cost of the silk used. I still keep one heavy crossbow which he will continue to sell, but for 10,000 gold. If the other player does not want to pay 10,000 gold (or very close to that), then so be it, I wont sell it. If everyone has that approach then that player will never be able to buy the bow from anyone. So he will have to wait and earn it.
  However if one crafter sells the bow for 2,000 gold, then the whole system falls apart.
  So my argument always is, if you want to sell it for 2,000 goldIC, then your probably selling a secondary bad product and you dont believe in your own abilities and quality.
  Well that is my rant for the day and lastly PLEASE SELL AT A FAIR PRICE!!

[Candor Ignifer]

As I stated: I am not asking for a change, only an explanation, which you have provided. So, thank you. By the way, what's with all the

and

?

[GhostWhoWalks]

I keep HTML off. So if I edit to revise spelling, it removes paragraph breaks and replaces with the html code for paragraph breaks.

I then have to go in and reedit and turn HTML on to resubmit it.

[xXDenizeNXx]

hehe Ghost sounds like a painful process.

[GhostWhoWalks]

Yeah. That's what I get for making errors. It makes one strive to get it right the first time.