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Author Topic: Sorcerer: How do we play them?  (Read 2142 times)

Doc-Holiday

Sorcerer: How do we play them?
« on: April 11, 2005, 06:47:00 pm »
I've talked at leangth with several people about the sorcerer. I thought it would be a good idea to have a discussion to get some ideas out so we can improve our RP and better define our characters.

(Please remember this is not a "this-is-how-you-do-it-cause-I-said-so" topic and stay on topic)

First off I believe that sorcerers should and will be somewhat undefined and mysterious.

Now a few questions to think about that should help us RP a sorcerer.

How does their magic differ from wizards?

Do sorceres know spells by name? or just by a sense?

Do they identify spells by seeing the conjuration and hearing the words of power? or do they sense the flow and draw of the weave?

Are they students of magical artifacts and study them? or can the sense the inate magic of an item?

Are they drawn to items of magic? or do they prefer their own natural abilities?

Just something to think on... there are hundreds of other questions.
 

Doc-Holiday

RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2005, 07:14:00 pm »
I will start (all of this is in my humble opinion)

My own personal look at sorcerers is this:

Sorcerers affect magic like we would affect the life span of a fly buzzing around our heads. I want it dead, I swing my arm, I hit fly, fly is dead.

A natural action that falls within their capabilities.

Magic is more personal than for a wizard, its steril to them, something to study and something to be catalouged, a sience. For a sorcerer, it is an art form, an expression of themselves.

Wizards tend to study magic that intrestes them and to some extent their studies reflect something of them. Sorcerers magic should be influenced by who they are and their personality traits.

Sorcerers should be socialy oriented in any variation. From the eloquent speaker, to the ecentric eclectic, to the narsisis, and so on. They should attract people (with in Alignment considerations, no one makes everyone happy)

Sorcerers are fare rarer than Wizards and would be very unique both in personality and magical demonstration.

I will give an example of Weston Pendrot.

He is very social, all ways one to talk and be around people. He is Lawful Good and attracts people of good alignment and lawful alignment very easily, those who get further away would obviously find him more obnoxious, though not without some intrest. Aleister and Weston are different personality types and alignments, both don't get along, yet Aleister finds Weston amusing at the very least, and Weston is very social and is willing to befriend most anyone. True to Lawful Good Weston is not agressive unless warrented and most of his magic reflects this in a defensive manner. He prefers the spot light though and will take to the sword, so most of his meager offensive magic is either flashy or short ranged. In order to demontrate the natural connection to the weave, Weston is very proficent in counterspell and anti magic spells. Being Lawful Good, Weston preferes the sporting chance and has absolutly NO necromantic spells, and NO instant death spells.

While I understand that Sorcerers must choose spells they will USE, it is also important to avoid becoming just another Spell Cannon, unless your character IS the stereotypical angry red headed irishman.

Weston is full of contradictory personality types and I think that's what makes him a bit eccentric at times. He is both flashy and center stage, but dresses himself down to divert enemy attention when he's not conjuring up a Wall of Fire. He is Intelligent (execpt on quests) and a little bit scholarly, yet clearly eclipsed by wizards in knowledge and scope (He was just a tutor, not a professor) and often times at a loss as to what is going on (not that he won't try to look like he does).

Wizards use their vast knowledge of spells to assess and then admistrate to a situation, Sorcerers SHOULD use their people skills to manipulate a situation into one that their magic can handle. Weston often uses taunt in battle and other charisma skills in order to swing the battle in ways that match his skills.

just a bit of my own thoughts... I want to see what others have to say! Never know when you might go AH! Hey! I like that idea! and adapt it to improve game play!
 

Vyris

RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2005, 07:22:00 pm »
It has always been my personal point of view that wizards gain power through study, logic, reason and practice, thier incantations are precise and exact, wizards practice for years and years to ensure that thier pronunciation, inflection and hand movements are controlled and exactly the same as they were the time before, the same EVERY time, they use a logical patterns to draw specific, desired, effects from the weave.

And sorcerers draw from the weave by force of will, causing the desired effect through sheer strength of chooseing a result then willing it to be so. In my mind the more emotion a sorcerer could put behind a spell the more powerfull it would become.

In a PnP campaign I was DM'ing that was how I did it, and the result was pretty cool, I'd give eachs spell a -/+ modifier, and then based on the circumstances assign a +/- to the roll, when a player cast a spell they rolled 1d4, with a 0 or lower result (possible with modifiers) resulting in a fizzle, or worse, a backfire, and a 5+ roll resulting in added, but sometimes chaotic effects.

An example: Fondir was a level 7 sorcerer in my campaign, he was moody and a bit of a drunk. One night after walking back to the inn after a night of carousing and playing cards he is walking along feeling rather angry for his losses and sorry for himself because he's had too much wine and lost a goodly sum of the money he'd been given to buy suplies for the group, thus he knew they would be vexed with him... and hungry too no doubt. At any rate, he gets mugged, the guy jumps out and threatens him with a knife, Fondir hands over the rest of the cash he has and cowers fearfully. The bandit then punched him in the stomach and turned to run away. Fondir collects himself and angrily hurls a spell after the fleeing mugger, "I'm sending your ass to meet your maker!" he shouted after the man and willed a crushing blow of fire at the man. With a pinkish silver streak of light he hit the cretin, and there was a loud *POP*, then the man turned, and laughingly made a rude gesture as he rounded the corner, unharmed from the spell. Fondir tredged back to his companions, who of course disbelieved the entire story.
Well, about three deays later the mugger finally tracks down Fondir and offers him three times the coin he'd stolen, if only Fondir will bring his 'ass' back, as he hasn't been able to poop since thier encounter, and actually, is incapable of doing so due to lack of the propper orafice. The pain is unbearable and he'll eventually die a grissly death because of it.


Anyway, thats a bit graphic and humorous, but was a very very extreme example of what I considered sorcerers to be like. I guess there was a little magician mixed in with a little 'wild magic' in my ethos.

Vyris
 

Kethryc

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RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2005, 07:48:00 pm »
1)Arcane magic is Arcane magic, it's that Mages have to study to understand the mechanics, while sorcerers have a natural talent for it, like it's intuitive.  It's like meeting someone who just knows how to work with mechanical things with no formal training.  The "knowledge" and "principles" are the same, just the application and talent is different.

2) Sorcerers who are exposed to wizards soon learn they have names and such.  Most often Sorcerers just "know" how to do fire magic, or cold magic, or invisible magic.  there's no real names.  Wizards need names, figures and such to be able to speak the "lingo" which Sorcerer's lack unless they learn it from mages

3) They can identify spells by their movement in the weave and the words.  Sometimes it takes the same words and the sorcerer can understand it.

4 & 5) They absolutely can pursue magical items and such, as they increase their prowess.  As sorcerers are more "primal" of the arcane classes, they even tend to want them more so they can increase thier spell abilities, limited by wizard standard.


Keth's 2 cents
 

RikL

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    RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
    « Reply #4 on: April 11, 2005, 08:00:00 pm »
    I certainly treat the sorcerer with more of that wild magic sense... especially a young one like Tom, has rather less control over his own magic. A sorcerers magic is inate, such that it comes from within them... and thus when Tom learns his magic, he is rather learning to harness and control what is within him, rather than learning to use a power.

    My answers to the questions posed:

    1. I dont think a sorcerer has to be any way mysterious or undefined. They are born with the ability to use magic, and this might mean their upbringing will turn them into mysterious people, but it doesn't mean they nesesarily are. It can be anyone, who just happens to have such an ability.

    2. A wizards magic is learned through study, and hence the need of spellbooks. It is bred into the sorcerer. Both will be able to feel the weave, but for the wizard it is because they have been trained to see it. A sorcerer that does not know their abilities, might well not realise what they are sensing. Also, a wizard runs out of spells when he uses up what he memorises. The sorcerer runs out of spells when they use up the energy within them. It should therefore be tiring, and effort (especially for the inexperienced) to cast spells. As it comes from within, it is a part of them, and overuse should therefore be a real problem to the sorcerer. Tom who is not used to his magic, will often be unable to control it all as it flows out of him, and this inbalance will leave him tired and drained at best.

    3. Sorcerers can know their spells by name, if it is taught. For example, a wizard might tell the sorcerer what it is he just cast. Tom, having not studied at all, and been given relatively little teaching, knows his spells by feel, not name, though he might learn the names. In casting the spell, the name is unimportant.

    4. They sense the flow, and the weave within them. Casting magic by copying an incantation is the wizards way... as that is actually learning how to do it, like an apprentice might. A sorcerer will feel it within themselves. They might then see and learn the incantation, which will aid them form or concentrate the spell. In terms of identifying, there would be an element of both.

    5. I think a sorcerer will only sense the inate magic in an item, if in-tune with the magic within themselves, such that they then recognise what they feel. I would say a Sorcerer should be very practiced in order to identify items like this. I would say that the majority would study artefacts like wizards in order to identify. My character Tom, is certainly not able to identify items, he has no lore skill. Remember that lore is knowledge, which implies learning and study.

    6. A sorcerer would use items over his own magic dependant on taste and situation. Some would rather use their own, some would use the items, in an effort to either bolster their relatively weak inate power (for the sorcerer with limited inate ability), or in other cases to save themselves the effort and energy of casting. It should take effort and energy for a sorcerer to cast, especially if inexperienced. I would say that a sorcerer might sometimes be drawn to particular items that have correlation with their own magic, because posession and use of the item might feel good. Something that goes against their magic, might feel uncomfortable.

    thats my input...



     

    Force_of_Will_

    RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
    « Reply #5 on: April 11, 2005, 11:01:00 pm »
    To me I view Sorcerers as Machine guns.
    Theyare the Spammers of spells.
     

    Doc-Holiday

    RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
    « Reply #6 on: April 11, 2005, 11:12:00 pm »
    I understand that sentiment due to improper use.. but how do you think it should be RPed? How should a sorcerer character be?
     

    Dorganath

    RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
    « Reply #7 on: April 12, 2005, 06:09:00 am »
    Connor is a Sorcerer who took a few levels in Fighter for survival and RP reasons.  I play him as a Sorcerer, but he has been known to draw his sword and beat up on things when the need arises.

    The magic of Sorcerers is essentially identical to that of Wizards.  A Wizard's magic is the result of what amounts to generations of study by countless Wizards and scholars.  Theirs is an intellectual, scholarly pursuit, loaded with theory and mechanics.  Sorcerers, as has been said by others, just know how to use magic, though they really don't know how.

    As such, names of spells, unless told to them, are unknown to Sorcerers.  Connor can cast Flame Weapon, but he doesn't know its name. Before combat, he asks who would like fire for their blades.  Heck, he didn't know he was a Sorcerer at first.  To him it's just a label, as are the names of spells.

    I'd like to think that they identify spells based on the fluctuations in the Weave, whether they know of the Weave or not.  It's like listening to another language spoken in context...eventually, you start to pick it up, and you'll learn a phrase or two.

    Connor is drawn to things that enhance his abilities, though since he is also a fighter, he's also drawn to things like rings/amulets of Bull's Strength, Mage Armor and weapon enhancement rods.

    Connor is Chaotic Good, so he's generally a nice guy but isn't afraid to ruffle some feathers to achieve a goal.  Garent kind of annoys him some days, but mostly, he gives the authorities little attention.  He will generally rush to help out his friends...and often those he does not know.  Depending on the situation, he'll stay and see things through or only stay until the immediate problem has passed.  True to the above-average Charisma for the class, Connor has frequently fallen into the role of diplomat, advisor and confidante....though frequently such roles have brought about some internal conflict within him.

    On his spell progressions...The first few levels were hit and miss a bit....Cantrips were no-brainers, but specifically chosen were Light (his first "spell" that he unknowingly cast while fumbling in the dark for a lantern), Flare and a few other.  Magic Missile was among the initial first-level spells he chose, being a very basic manifestation of magical energy.  Shield came about due to a desire to protect himself (replaced Mage Armor one day....PRAISE LUCINDA!!!!). Invisibility...same deal.  Flame Weapon...an elemental extension of his fighter tendancies and an enhancement to combat....Fireball...primal, basic, elemental (sensing a pattern here?).  He recently "learned" Bull's Strength because he had observed it cast on him and others enough times that it started to resonate.

    Connor knows several fire magics, but one of the few things that calms him is water (i.e. lakes, oceans).   He carries a bastard sword (for use when needed) that is enchanted with Cold, and he'll cast Flame Weapon upon it before combat (he loves the contradiction there).  He has a staff enchanted with Electricity and a sonic visual effect (He thinks of it as his Staff of Thunder and Lightning...no relation to the actual item by that name).

    As a  player, I have chosen his spells in a somewhat logical, justifyable progression.   As he grows in power, some spells will "replace" others, such as Improved Invisibility replacing Invisibility or Issac's various missile storms replacing (or supplementing) Magic Missile, though to him, he will have simply figured out how to do it better by using a bit more energy.  He really doesn't know how or why he can do what he does, though he has learned that magic comes from the Weave and he has Lucinda to thank for that.

    I do strongly subscribe to the idea of Sorcerers being capable of manifesting magic through purely emotional means, though such magics may be unformed and indistinct.  At one point, Connor was rather peeved at some recent events and had trouble controlling his anger.  During conversations with friends a few times, his hands started to glow blue as magical energy coalesced around them.  The more intense his anger, the brighter the glow.  When someone got his attention and snapped him out of his funk, the glow dissipated.

    At one point, Connor offered to help Tom understand his magic, which was RPed as manifesting randomly, and was most definitely linked to Tom's emotions.  That was tough for Connor, because it was like describing how to breathe or walk.  It was this situation that got Connor more interested in the Weave, and I think that knowing what the Weave is and how it kinda-sorta works is something that will allow Connor to improve his own power as he progresses through life.
     

    SirGunky

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      RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
      « Reply #8 on: April 12, 2005, 10:53:00 pm »
      Well, Doc, we've had this discussion before :D

      I tend to view arcane magic users as allegorical to musicians.

      Wizards are the studious types, the precise and very deliberate and nuanced players.  Classical violinists.

      Sorcerers are wilder and sort of "dirty" and "untrained," having a natural affinity for the art and a feel for the emotion of it rather than the theory.  Rock guitarist.

      Sorcerers do not cast by "force of will."  Clerics cast by force of will.  Sorcerers cast by feel, like they empathize with the ebb and flow of magic.  They read it as a bard reads the emotions of his audience.

      As for how they are able to identify spells cast by other mages... I guess that would be dependant on the sorcerer in question, and how they learned to control their own magic.  If a person taught himself to cast spells by how they felt, that would likely be how he would identify other spells.  IF he had a mentor who taught him how to control his abilities, he would likely be more studious.

      As for items/artifacts/etc., again, that would be dependant on how the sorcerer in question learned to control his own abilities.  If he went by feel, he would likely feel a synergetic connection to powerful magical auras.

      As far as a preference... that depends on the ego of the sorcerer, which is not going to be the sasme from person to person.  An egotistical sorcerer with the blood of a dragon in his veins would likely be highly egotistical and would feel that his own powers are superior to any given item (though he would likely covet the item anyway, owing to his natural draconic greed).

      I agree that sorcerers should be somewhat mysterious.  "Undefined" seems a little broad.  The mystery part is how they are able to innately tap the weave of magic without formal training.  It places them somewhat above everyone else, in that they are more spiritually attuned to magic than other people of their race.

      Unfortunately, a lot of people do use them simply as "spell spammers" and artillery.  The class has amazing potential for roleplay, but it has been my experience that the potential of the sorcerer often goes unrealized in favor of raw firepower.
       

      Doc-Holiday

      RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
      « Reply #9 on: April 13, 2005, 01:34:00 pm »
      Brilliantly said Gunky.. I know we talked about this before and that's why I posted this (and was waiting for you response). You really hit an important point I was haveing trouble communicating, how a Sorcerer is trained in his abilities WILL INFLUENCE HOW HE ACTS in reguards to magic and his skills. Weston was trained by a wizard, he is somewhat studious and intelligent. He identifies items partialy from inate understanding and part historical and arcane lore. Another brilliant point was the draconic blood. How thin is it? what type of dragon( what color?) all these would influence your character. For Weston, his family has regularly produced sorceres of some power (i.e. not so thin blood). And I chose the Gold Dragon due to his alignment Lawful Good. He is almost unwavering due to the natural affect of his heritage. Egotism is another important aspect to bring about, Sorceres would often be naturaly egotsitical. Weston's ego is alot more humble due to alignment, training, and upbrining... but ask Aleister... he can be very bubble headed.

      I like hearing how everyone defines their sorcerers... but lets talk about HOW to RP them... how should they act in situations? How would they be diffrent from a Wizard?

      In the Pranzis Knght sky quest Weston was peresent with one other Sorcerer and a Wizard. The Wizard knew more about lore and items than Weston... However... Weston knew more about items and lore than the other... less disciplined Sorcerer. Two sorcerers who are VASTLY diffrent due to training and upbrining... one explodes is she stands still... the other will make her explode if she doesn't. Weston was an example of a wizard trained sorcerer.. the other.. self taught. When arcane effects are being examined I would emote that weston was "examining the item with his inate connection to the weave." When I tell someone I am going to cast Inviso Sphere, I don't say.. I am going to Cast Invisibility Sphere.. instead I say "I am going to hide us all in the weave... do try to stay close." When asked "What spell is that" I will respond "Em...I believe wizards call it.. Magic Missile." Weston has a great deal of self control, both from his training and lineage. He will often stop and think criticly about what he is feeling and examine the emotions inorder to properly respond without going overboard or loseing sense of what is ultimate goal. Compared to a wizard though, he is still far more likely to be angered or swayed by the emotional pull of a situation, the same with magic, he avoids items and spells and spell casters who use alot of "disagreeable" magic.

      I think Sorcerers will naturaly distinguish themselves from Wizards, after all they are two completely DIFFRENT diciplines of magic.. though they achive the same result.
       

      Dorganath

      RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
      « Reply #10 on: April 13, 2005, 02:11:00 pm »
      Wizards training Sorcerers??? BAH!  Preposterous!!! ;)

      Interesting concept though....seems like Wizards could teach Sorcerers the "why's" and "when's" of magic use.  And perhaps through sheer repetition and exposure, a Sorcerer could "learn" to cast a particular spell that he has seen a Wizard cast over and over.   It also seems like Wizards could "learn" a bit from Sorcerers in how they channel the Weave to produce certain effects, and in doing so, grow in their own power as well.  Fun stuff, this magic!

      I suppose though, the desire, patience and ability to be "trained" in a classical sense of the word depends on the individual Sorcerer.  The Lawful types would probably find this beneficial...Chaotic types, not so much or maybe for a concept or two here and there..and Neutral types....maybe.

      On the draconic blood thing....it was sort of my understanding that this "standard" aspect of the Sorcerer/Bard classes was greatly downplayed in Layonara.....seeing as how there are only a few dragons on Layonara as it is, and Leanthar seems to really want to restrict progression to the RDD PrC. Or maybe I have misunderstood somwhere along the way. *shrugs*
       

      Doc-Holiday

      RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
      « Reply #11 on: April 14, 2005, 01:32:00 pm »
      Great input... I am not sure how Layonara produces its sorcerers. And as far as I know they are fairly rare. For my character "Weston Pendrot" he was not born on Layonara. His story is intresting, and how the whole plane jumping thing happened. As its something he doesn't like to remember... the only time he ever speaks of it are with those very few people he knew before.

      You comment on Wizards training Sorcerers, your very right how it makes sense for Lawful Sorcerers to recieve classical training. As I had mentioned before, Weston is more classical in nature than say.. Bimpo.

      Since Sorcerers get so few points per level than wizards, I think it makes a lot of sense to pick those things that they as a person would pursue... not all sorcerers are adept Spellcrafters or Historians.

      Where the power of Sorcerers comes from is really unknown... Draconic blood is really just a popular rumor. In some cases where it is documented, it could be true. In others, it could just be an inate power that tends to appear in certain families, or even a gift from the gods for a particular person who is so lucky to be favored.
       

      OmegaZERO

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        RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
        « Reply #12 on: June 03, 2005, 10:24:00 pm »
        Quote
        Doc-Holiday - 4/14/2005  4:32 PM

        Where the power of Sorcerers comes from is really unknown... Draconic blood is really just a popular rumor. In some cases where it is documented, it could be true. In others, it could just be an inate power that tends to appear in certain families, or even a gift from the gods for a particular person who is so lucky to be favored.



        You're probably going to kill me for bringing up this old thread, but the D&D 3.5 playershandbook seems to heavily favor the idea that Sorcerers get their power from dragon blood.  Just my two cents.
         

        Dorganath

        RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
        « Reply #13 on: June 04, 2005, 05:28:00 am »
        This is true....but the rules of this campaign setting can in some cases override whatever the rulebooks say.  Think of it as "house rules".  Leanthar's house...his rules. :)

        There's a whole big list of things here that deviate from standard rules.  The most obvious is the XP chart for leveling.
         

        FlameStrike

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        RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
        « Reply #14 on: June 04, 2005, 05:50:00 am »
        If the RDD wasn't as restricted as now, people would be walking around with too powerful characters, even if it doesn't seem to be that way.
         Layonara is supposed to be a medium-hard PW, and making this class too easy to attain would take away the fun for people who choose it... it would be so easy it wasn't even worth making an effort.  :o
         

        Doc-Holiday

        RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
        « Reply #15 on: June 04, 2005, 08:30:00 pm »
        It's ALIVE! *watches as the post spasms with life*

        hmmm

        *stabs it and puts it a way*

        Maybe it'll stay down this time...
         

        Vyris

        RE: Sorcerer: How do we play them?
        « Reply #16 on: June 04, 2005, 09:57:00 pm »
        *sneaks by and casts ressurect while doc isn't looking*


        Muahaha-hahahahaha- muahahaa!





        Vyris slinks out of the old-post graveyard unseen