The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Leanthar on September 09, 2005, 06:35:00 pm
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There is no swearing/cussing etc. on these forums and in this community. It shows a lack of intelligence and respect. So... Please do not use that language. Thank you.
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In total agreement with you Leanthar. I know sometimes it can be lonely in the top spot having to make calls like this and having someone telling you how wrong you are with the decision. I just think you should know how right I think you are with this one.
Your adherence to mutual respect and courtesies is the primary reason I treasure Layonara.
Thanks.
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I agree. I find it refreshing that there's a place on the internet where you can play without being overcome by overzealous players, bots, swearing, pornography, etc. If I had kids I would actually allow them to play on this server.
Well done!
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Sorry, I'm new here, but it seems to me that No Swearing at all is a bit extreme, unless you mean in the OOC areas. Because ICly, if a character would react in such a way as to swear at an enemy, then they will, and there isn't allot you can do to stop it without interfearing with the person's character. Even paladins curse... Even Drizzt Do'Urden curses.
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You are allowed to curse e.g. "those cursed buggers", "By all the gods" and so on. It is related to the f-word and similar expressions...
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@ Seth Cy'nada
First and formost this is a FAMILY server and their are young players here.
As to there is nothing we can do you are wrong on that, we can ban you from the site.
Normally we will issue a short term ban first, but if pushed we will just outright ban you.
So PLEASE don't cuss. The best guide that I can think of is this:
If you have to ask yourself if anyone would call the word your about to use a cuss word, then don't use it.
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@ Seth Cy'nada - To answer your question, it is mainly referring in the OOC sort of things (forums and in game). However, even when in game and IC you should not be cussing to the extreme--I am not going to give examples as there are far to many--but I hope this gives you an idea of what is meant by that rule.
There are kids that play this game and there are entire families that play this game, as such we treat them with respect--just like the rest of the community.
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There is a baseline for mutual respect that must be met. Swearing and using vulgar langage, innuendo, or other forms of verbal abuse takes that baseline and shreds it. As a former Navy man, I can cuss with the best of them. But I do not. It shows a lack of respect for those around me and brings the level of any conversation down to the gutter.
As for in character, there are polite ways to show that your character is upset and "cursing" an enemy. If you look back in history, you will see that there are quite a large number of things that we say in common language today that were considered to be "base" language. Also, bear in mind that this is a fantasy setting....come up with some inventive curses for your character. Oft times, it can be quite humorous as well - i.e. "You son of an illiterate kobold". However, bear in mind that someone might actually be the son of an illiterate kobold and could take great offense at this (in character that is)!
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Using Common Sense is the best way to think of this issue... you don't start swearing and bad-mouthing to people you don't know, and even if you know some of the players both IC and OOC for some time, keep it private and also remember that there are children playing this game.
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Be creative, not vulgar. If you can't come up with anything, use emotes like : *curses violently* or *makes rude insinuations about the captain's mother under his breath*
The best, non-swearing insult I've seen in-game recently is this:
Dwarven NPC to PC: You have the brains of your mother, I swear. :)
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eh, you want IC cursing? any gesture that has the word "troll" in it is a serious slur, as troll's are just about the basest creatures actually alive, at least in the DnD realms.
I.E. "Son of a troll." -base, but common.
"Your mother was a half-troll and your father was just as ugly" -mild, more of a taunt or 'buddy punch' between friends.
"Your mother was eaten by a troll." -extreme, offered only in hate
As the saying goes, "Even dead trolls aren't good"
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@Zen - "there isn't allot you can do to stop it without interfearing with the person's character." (emphasis added.) This is true if it is being done well and IC.
Regardless the vast majority of words that are in the "very offensive" category now, didn't exist in the period we're emulating. Using them IC would be very bad RP and should be stopped for that reason alone. As for OOC swearing, if you feel like swearing a lot OOC its probably time to log off for a bit and take a break hehe.
-TV
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Talan Va'lash - 1/12/2006 1:16 AM
Regardless the vast majority of words that are in the "very offensive" category now, didn't exist in the period we're emulating. Using them IC would be very bad RP and should be stopped for that reason alone.
In most case this is very true, however; many of the swear words used in the modern English speaking world, have origins that are very obscure. But yes, in most cases, they do not originate as far back as the period we are emulating.
The English language evolved over many years, being influenced by repeated invasions from mainland Eurpope, hence the English languge is a mixture of many languages. Deeeper research of area dialects around the United Kingdom, will turn up local words that are obviously the same as some Scandinavian words, ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/lj/conquestlj/legacy_05.shtml ) especially in the East of England, where Norse influence was the greatest. There are parts of England that have such a rich dialect, that it is almost like a hearing different language. Subsequently these areas that have these rich local dialects, have invented or evolved there own forms of cursing (cussing) or insult. Some of them, completely meaningless and innocous, but otherwise quite amusing.
As for OOC swearing, if you feel like swearing a lot OOC its probably time to log off for a bit and take a break hehe.
-TV
Very True Talan,
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*grins* It might be true that these expressions didn't exist at the time of period. However, other expression did and they weren't "better", I don't think that the language at the time was less faul than it is today. This is of course of minor importance since you can have a very unpleasent character that swears and curses without ever using offensive language, so this rule is in my point not preventing people from playing the way they like. Very good examples can be seen from time to time online on how this is done.
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I'm not going to try an change people's minds but I think there is something a bit disingenuous about telling people they have to watch every word they say and that cussing is absolutely not tolerated. Before I get demerits or a tongue lashing, just hear me out.
First, I'll say this like I say it to some people I know who play pen and paper RPGs and let their kids play or watch, "what the heck are you thinking?" Kids shouldn't be playing this if they can't understand the nature of the game where people run about SLAYING creatures (which, depending on who you ask, may be the worst thing about RPGs). Heck, if cussing can't be tolerated because of kids, then kids shouldn't be playing because they probably shouldn't be around violence which is way more damaging to their ability to socialize properly.
Second, in NWN, there is blood shown when a creature dies. If a kid is playing NWN, he should first be able to understand that it isn't real, you don't go around hitting people, death is final in real life and there are consequences to murder.
Third, things that are stated in the Game 'voices' shouldn't be banned by players who use similar words. Now, this isn't saying there shouldn't be a modicum of responsibility by the players. I can understand being upset if people use a string of foul language where every third word is F this and F that or just get overly vulgar in their speech.
Lastly, parents must be responsible and tell their kids what should be expected before they ever play. Yes, I said, should be expected, because words will come out of other players because they don't live up to everybody elses standard of living and did not grow up in similar fashions to say, yours or whoever else may want to judge them. My best example is that I grew up where if I were in my grandparent's presence, you better never say, "I swear." With or without saying who or what you swear, believe me, they'd dive down your throat with a bar of soap saying all the while, "you don't swear." I couldn't and wouldn't make people live up to their standards.
I hope parents aren't letting their pre-teens play this game, because that's less responsible then expecting/demanding others who play to respect your wishes/limits/ and standards.
Needless to say, this isn't my call; however, I thought there should be a different view from somebody who was once a councilor of teens. It was a stressful job, that's why I now council the documented mentally ill, which seems easier, oddly enough.
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Most of your arguments surround children. What about adults who don't wish to see any profanity? Nice to have a place where this is controlled. 20th century cursing breaks immersion, be creative without being vulgar, everyone benefits?
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I talk about kids because the statement about this being a family site.
As for adults not wanting profanity, I answered that as well.
Also, if anybody thinks that violence doesn't effect adults any more or less than profanity, well, that depends on the adults (for which nobody could possibly judge over the web). You could also exchange violence which is a form of profanity (i.e., profane) with nudity if you want (like when a character dresses or undresses and then dances around. Come on, you've seen it. The Line dancing dwarves...heeh.).
Anyhow, not my place to judge. Again, just making comment.
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orth - 3/23/2006 4:04 AM
Most of your arguments surround children. What about adults who don't wish to see any profanity? Nice to have a place where this is controlled. 20th century cursing breaks immersion, be creative without being vulgar, everyone benefits?
Plus we have cable television for unnecessary swearing and such. Layo needs to be all Funky-Cuddle-Fun, in my opinion. Just funky cuddle fun with gore and stuff, keeps the cuddles interesting.
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Kinda off I know, but I want to make this observation.
When I read Lean's post he reminds me of my dad, heh. I don't know if anyone else feels this way.
((Meant in a good way))
Leans a father figure.
Back on the topic:
cussing is naughty and low-minded anywhere and in any situation...yea.
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I agree, he is a father figure, and I hope people get what I was saying which is basically, know your medium. Know you're coming onto the web (a world wide community), know your coming into a game that promotes violence, and know that issues will arise like racism (dwarves vs elves) that you must feel comfortable with, by knowing that people are just RPing a character (and hopefully) not personalizing.
I applaud the site's policy but at the same time I don't want to see Good RPers put off by postulating or preaching. Context, not just content, should be looked at and of course, give cudos to those that type, *curses underbreath* or such over typing out a tirade, which people will do, but as well, don't prothelitise to those that use various forms of, say for example, the word "butt." Even though many RPers use the Scottish varient, it's all the same and kids and adults aren't stupid in understanding this. People don't grow up under the same standards and people have seen that good people use bad words at times. Just don't be overly strict (know the medium) because you don't want to put a player down, or those around them, for not being to your standards because we know, everybodies standards are different. This isn't the same as saying, "let players get out of control, though."
Anyhow, I hope I made sense to people, 5 minutes before running out of my house to a meeting.
Cheers.
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Well as a father whose son does play here I can say I do like L's policy. And you have to know where I'm coming from, 8years in the Army and 6 years as a Teamster, believe me when I say that you can't make me blush or get me offended with words.
On the other hand cursing requires no real thought. If you really want to impress me, impress me with more creative expressions and not the ingrained ones you've leanred in society. I like my son playing in this type of environment for that reason. I'm not naive to know that he curses at school but he knows I do not like to hear him curse.
And I don't like to curse and it's second nature many times so i have to fight that nature. Much like a recovering smoker, I don't want to put myself in an environment where it's going on all around me and fighting the urge to return to the habit.
If you like cursing, well I know there are plenty of PW's out there that have kids whose every third word is a curse word, done like that because they feel emboldened becuase they can do there what they can't do at home.
So I do sypathize with L, I want my son to play here in a curse free environment. And I want to be part of that world as well that polices the language, otherwise I could just go play WoW.
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This whole discussion about cussing and related topics has made me decide to leave Layo for some time. The ban on cussing bothered me when I started on the server. I do realize of course that to play on a server like layonara, you have to follow the rules that are set there. And refraining from cussing isnt that hard to do - in RL I also try not to use foul language, especially around my children. The reason I was bothered by the ban was that it seemed odd to me to not allow cussing, while at the same time other things - some inherent to playing NWN or DnD in general - like slaughtering camps of bandits, were allowed.
This most likely has to do with the place I grew up with, where physical violence is considered a much greater problem than things like cussing or nudity. Since I grew up in that environment, I share those values. I am more bothered by watching a man being killed in cold blood on television than by seeing nudity on the same screen, or by hearing the same killer use foul language. "Cussing doesnt hurt you" is a saying here, and while that doesnt mean swearing is ok, it does set the severity against actual physical violence.
Like I said before, I was bothered by the cussing ban, but accepted it, me being a guest here. But lately, some things have happenend that bothered me even more. Enough to step away from this server for now. These things were related to a group of characters who has started to become involved with Corath. I feel - and i respect others who feel differently - that when you allow players to follow an evil god like Corath, you have to allow them to RP it. When the rules say that Corath encourages his followers to let their feelings of lust and hatred fuel their existence, that is what they will start to do. My character was also taken to one of his temples, and I must say I was shocked by what I saw there. The torture equipment was quite realistic. If things like this are possible on the server, expect your characters to behave in a similar way.
I am not saying that you should change the rules on Layonara. L and his team make those decisions, and I think everyone playing here should follow them. If not, the leave. What I am saying is that to me, these rules - and more specifically the rule on cussing and the tightened rules on sexuality - don't make sense to me anymore, in relation to the game setting (fantasy/fighting) and allowed evil (corath). To be honest, I wouldnt let my children play NWN - on layo or anywhere else - until they are at least 15 or so. Even if all the things were banned I mentioned, there would be so much violence here, that i dont think children can separate from reality.
Anyway, it feels good to have this stated, even though it wont change anything to layo - and it shouldnt. I feel a loss of leaving layo, I have had a lot of fun here. There is a lot of excellent RP going on here.
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Arandwen - 3/25/2006 12:26 PM These things were related to a group of characters who has started to become involved with Corath. I feel - and i respect others who feel differently - that when you allow players to follow an evil god like Corath, you have to allow them to RP it. When the rules say that Corath encourages his followers to let their feelings of lust and hatred fuel their existence, that is what they will start to do.
Not to detract from your post at all but I feel it should be pointed out that we have both follwers of Corath and Xeen who have been around for quite awhile who have sucessful managed to RP following their God's ethos without the need to 'push the boundry' as Leanther put it.
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I am sure that there have been followers of Corath before like you described. I also have not felt the need to cross the boundaries of what Leanthar had defined. Nothing that could have been offensive to others has been played out in public or near-public places. In cases where there was a chance that another player would drop in, tells were used.
In the last entry of Arandwen's book of days, there is a mention of a mark. However, that mark would have been a tattoo, of which she already had many on her body. Staying within the boundaries of the rules as they were defined is not the same as pushing the boundaries in my opinion. Still, things like that apparently have caused the rules on behaviour to be tightened to a point which does not appeal to me anymore. Maybe that was done partially based on rumors, maybe not. Whatever the reason, the new rules do not feel right to :me: in relation to things like the violence level of the game.
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Whether certain activities were performed in public, semi-public or in complete privacy is not really the issue. There are greater issues at stake here than what one person may feel is appropriate or acceptable. I'm sorry you feel limited, but for a variety of reasons (legal liability among them), certain activities will no longer be permitted, in public or otherwise. I hope you find another server more suitable to your personal preferences.
I'd like to add only that this particular discussion does not belong in this thread. Also, the profanity rule and the recent decisions about sexual activity, even in private settings, are not up for debate. I'm sure if everyone took a few minutes to think about it, you'll understand.
Any further debate on this subject, and this thread will likely be locked.
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"... tightened rules on sexuality...."
One thing on this. I can not (nobody can) guarantee that any player is of a legal age for sexuality. As such, in the end I (personally) would be held for anybody breaking the law (and without my knowing it). I am not willing to take that risk. I don't have anybody signing an EULA (like MMO's), I don't have anybody stating they are of X age (like MMO's).... and thusly I have no protection. So.... why should I put myself (and my team) in a position of something bad happening by some stupid (or even intended) action done by players. We have RL's and responsibilities as well--and I will not put my teams RL or my RL in jeopardy over some action that we do not control from XYZ player(s)--Period....
So...after hearing things for four years, dealing with some really stupid (and bad things)--and this was not one of them btw, I decided enough was enough. Why continue to put my heart, soul, money, time, etc. etc. (not to meantion all of the teams) in to a project where it will take one action by somebody that we do not know (their age, sexuality whatever) to sink everything, send us to jail or at the very least have some major fines.
So...call it what you will, but I am protecting myself and my team as well as my family. Anyways...this thread has turned in to something it was not supposed to be and as such it is now locked.