My view on Layo

[Ar7]

Iäve been asked by a few people to post my thoughts and I will do so. Some of them have been voiced over the passed days already and I apologize for any repetition, it simply took me a few days to write as I have been lacking time lately.  

I would like to begin by defining what Layonara is in my eyes and how I have come to understand it and its values coming from my experience in the game itself and on the forums. For me Layonara has always been a friendly, family oriented RP server. So I have always thought of it as a place where friends play with friends, simply to RP, talk to each other and have a good time.

Now keeping the above paragraph in mind I shall try to throw in some organisation theory as I consider Layonara an organisation. There are many ways to divide organisations and one of them is by size e.g small vs large. Its hard to clearly define small or large, but most people can feel it without any rules. The important thing here is that in a small organisation the people are tied together by informal friendly relationships and that there is little need for rules as moral norms and consideration for friends keeps the members from breaking rules. In a large organisation we see the opposite: a large level of formalisation that eventually requieres a growing number of rules and punishments, which leads to conflicts and frustration. This happens because the organisation doesnt change easily and instead throws out what thinks differently.

Now where am I getting with this? I have seen Layonara go from small to large. In the early days there was no favouritism, no banning offences (most bans happened in the last year or so) and no constant conflicts among players or players and DMs. It happened because people knew each other quite well, they did not brake rules because they didnt want to upset their friends and because most of the other players would immeadiatly find out. The players were keeping the order themselves, this is what I described earlier - rules vs moral norms.

Now if we look at how Layonara is defined and what a large organisation is and how it works, we see that these two contradict. As such I can state my main point, the main issue of Layonara is in its size. Coming from this I will try to further state what I think is wrong with Layonara.

So Ive already said that with size comes a large need for rules and managment and I do believe that in a recent discussion of Harlofs post the term managment has been mentioned in regards to the DM team. Now this causes a lot of problems, people come here to play and to enjoy a game, they do not want to managed or controlled or ruled etc. A counter arguement can be stated, that Layonara needs to be managed or it will fall apart. Yet this arguement holds no ground, as for years Layonara has managed to be open, friendly and mostly controlled by players themselves and this is what we should strive for again.

Now the points of secrecy, fear before the DMs when voicing concerns and the overall players vs DMs feeling.

All of this is coming once again from the size of Layonara and a growing DM team that acts as "managment". There is secrecy and I am not talking about issues like Krashin. I am talking about information that affects the gameplay (changes for spells, areas, creatures, plans for the future etc) Many time have I talked to people and heard info that never actually made it to the forums as well as I know a few people who left because of their disagreements. Hopefully I wont become a persona non grata to talk to now

The fact is that all the important decisions are taken by the DMs and the players are never informed and their opinion is never asked. But the DMs are simply people who wish to run quests, so why should they decide everything?

The following points add to the feeling of secrecy as well as fear before the DMs

- Forum polls and discussions - whenever a poll is held, the players recieve no feedback. Same thing happens whenever players discuss important issues (Tensers comes to mind or Harlof post for example). The discussion or poll ends with a hallow "We shall consider your opinion" which usually leaves people wondering if their opinion even mattered in the end.

- Bans - These are very important and you cant live without them, but often people are banned after they voice their critique (though it is true that it often happens in a rude way) so it leaves a really wrong perception in the communitys eyes and they are afraid to state the flaws. This opinion is further increased by the fact that people see the DMs as a separate managment.

So to get rid of the secrecy and fear I would recommend involving the players more and giving them more decision power, after all GM are here to run quests not act as managment. Perhaps ask players to set priorities for changes and game additions, because even if 20 things are working perfectly and 1 isnt, but that 1 is the most important for players, the results will be awful. So even though farming and flowers are interesting and add to RP, we can still RP them without the actual items. Much more important issues for players are summons, classes, spells, abilities etc. I do know that the manpower and time is limited, so it becomes even more important to focus on things the entire community needs. I am sure you will get a great response if you fix the broken PrC and maybe add new ones or add epics spells for the growing number of druids, clerics, wizards and sorcerers that are becoming epic. No matter the issue, if it is what the community wants it is great.

So having polls on "What to develop next" and "What should we decide here" where players actually see that the poll affected the end result would have fantastic results. Of course L would have a final say, so it would resemble a presidental democracy instead of what it is now.

Having said all that, I would like us to stop promoting Layonara this much. We do get more players, but does it make the world better? In my opinion it has caused much more trouble than it has done good. This is not a cry for the "good ol days" it is a suggestion to keep expansion within the limits of the community, NWN and financial capabilities. A quantity vs quality question so to speak.

I may have forgotten something I wanted to say, I most likely have, so I will try to make an episode two in the same thread as soon as I can.

Thank you for your attention.

[Talan Va'lash]

Players ideas having an impact and letting people -know- that their ideas had an impact was the reason this forum category was made: http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/forum-view.asp?fid=162  It contains ideas taken from the player suggestion categories that were picked up by the project team and added (or were created and are in the process of being added.)  Note that farming was suggested/requested by a player.  Just pointing to a facet of part of this idea that is already in place and would like to make known that I regularly go through the suggestions and bring things that are fesible, good ideas, and fit in the dynamic of the server to discussion with the project team. Some aren't chosen to be implemented due to difficulty or balancing issues or just because there isn't time to do it.  ----  Since flowers are being picked on fairly regularly lately, I'll point out that they are not something the layonara teams created. The same guy that made demon cards made them a few years back and the layonara teams took his modifications and art that he has released to the NWN community and integrated it into layonara, the same way demon cards was incorporated. Flowers were not a major project that we chose to work on rather than other projects.  ----  PrC's:  Some of the bugs (like with duelist) simply aren't fixable in NWN. There is no way to get it to do what it should do -exactly- right with the tools we have available.   Now the two that oft are cited as broken, Spellsword and Skald... well, there is disagreement as to whether they are broken and how (this is my personal perception as I am not involved in discussions about balancing PrCs.) Skald I can't really vouch for because I don't know it well enough and I haven't crunched the numbers. However Spellsword... I could (and have on paper) built a spellsword using the layo PrC that kicks a lot of butt.  As far as number crunching goes a 5fighter/5wizard/10Spellsword build compares favorably to a 10fighter/10wizard.  The spellsword build will be a better fighter, while the dual class build will be a better caster. This is how it was supposed to be. The only small change I would make (and this is just a tweak) would be to make the imbue ability last either 5rnds+spellsword level or 2rnds per spellsword level.  When balance of classes is concerned remember that it is possible to make a weak character using any class. It is also possible to make a strong character of any class.
 
  Because X player may have a character of X class and that character dies a lot (or something) it does not mean that X class is broken. That conclusion ignores all the many many many other factors that can lead to death including but not limited to: Tactics, Party balance and cohesion (how well they work together and complement each other), build, and last but NOT least (this is DnD remember?) Luck.
 
  This is just a response to some points that have been brought up in the above post and others recently and is in no way meant to refute the contents of the above post. It is intended merely to add to the discussion.

[Yosemite Sam]

We have grown large, and it has lead to at least a percieved increase in tension.  As far as stating an opionion, I have done so many times, and even disagreed with our "management".  I have never felt persecuted for it, and at least they took the time to listen!  The problem with most large organizations is communication.  People get too seperated.  It happens in all human organizations, from corporate forms, to living arrangements (rural towns to large cities), to even places of worship.  There is no avoiding it, only mitigation can be done. The forums are an excellent way, but there are some problems there to.  It is easy to miss an important post.  Maybe its time for either a newletter or a forum post that is nothing more than a list of links to important posts for the week?

[Dorganath]

Thanks for your post Ar7. Nicely stated and well thought-out. I'd like to respond directly to a couple of points, if I may.... speaking as GM and as the person now responsible for merging module changes...."Management" if you will    
 

Ar7 - 6/24/2006  3:34 AM  
  So to get rid of the secrecy and fear I would recommend involving the players more and giving them more decision power, after all GM are here to run quests not act as managment.

 GMs are not here to just run quests. That's actually a common misconception, and people who apply to be GMs thinking that is the only responsibility are generally turned away. Now maybe that gets into the "management" role that is seen, and to a degree it's true. GMs also help define policies, we discuss issues with character submissions, problems with players (griefing, rule violations, etc), and many other things that affect the world as a whole.
  It is also among the GMs responsibilities to ensure balance across the world. This is a topic I'll touch more on shortly.
 

Perhaps ask players to set priorities for changes and game additions, because even if 20 things are working perfectly and 1 isnt, but that 1 is the most important for players, the results will be awful. So even though farming and flowers are interesting and add to RP, we can still RP them without the actual items. Much more important issues for players are summons, classes, spells, abilities etc. I do know that the manpower and time is limited, so it becomes even more important to focus on things the entire community needs. I am sure you will get a great response if you fix the broken PrC and maybe add new ones or add epics spells for the growing number of druids, clerics, wizards and sorcerers that are becoming epic. No matter the issue, if it is what the community wants it is great.  So having polls on "What to develop next" and "What should we decide here" where players actually see that the poll affected the end result would have fantastic results. Of course L would have a final say, so it would resemble a presidental democracy instead of what it is now.

 Understood what you are saying here, we do try to make changes that players request, with the caveats that they have to make sense and they have to be balanced. Not all player suggestions are appropriate for Layonara. Some, while perhaps unworkable in their suggested forms, give way to other ideas. One of the key problems, however, is that deciding by popular vote quicky degenerates into "design by committee". Ask 100 people what they think should be added to/changed in Layonara, and you'll get 100 different answers. It's human nature. We do take and consider input, and generally our feedback is what we implement, though understandably that may not always be as visible as some might like.
  One thing that keeps this world from spinning apart and deviating from it's core, which is basically fun and RP, is balance. We could have stayed with standard NWN spells, abilties, etc., but NWN was based on a "high magic" ideal, and as we all know, once we go down that road, everyone ends up getting +7 This-and-Thats, 10th level characters are running around with major equipment and people hit 20th level in a couple months (which is possible now, even with our greatly expanded XP charts). Within 6 months, everyone is 40th level and...well, that's just not fun anymore. In order to maintain the flavor that is uniquely Layonara, we have to have balance, and that responsibility primarily falls to the GMs. Again, we do listen to player comments, but ultimately we...and even then ultimately Leanthar....has the final say over issues of balance. Why? Because...it's part of the job, and yes, GMing is a job. And as GMs, our concern is for the world as a whole, not just for a single issue. We try to look at any changes or inclusions and ask, "How will this affect the world? What else will it affect?" and so on.
  This holds true for most things, whether it is a new system or PrC or a change to an existing spell. Some spells are changed to keep them in line with everything else in the world. Some are changed due to changes from Bioware updates (Evard's Black Tentacles is a good, recent example here and one that involved player input)...and still some are changed because of player actions. I say "actions" and not comments here, because it is often the actions of players that cause us to take steps that we would rather not take. For fairly clear reasons, you can probably see why we do not make these discussions public. First there's a risk of "outing" a player who, while not doing anything "wrong" is perhaps pushing the boundaries of what is appropriate for this world's spirit. Second, people tend to get possessive about their favorite spells/spell combinations. I will say that two spells changed recently were due to repeated player actions that, in final analysis, illustrated that the spells were indeed too powerful in their default forms.
  You and others may call this "secrecy" and perhaps it is. At the same time, a certain amount of discretion must occur, or else instead of facing retribution from the "management," players risk retribution from other players.
  Now, to address directly some of the key "hot-button" issues that seem to keep coming up....
  PrCs: The things that may or may not be wrong with these classes generally boils down to the question of time and manpower. First, as I discussed above, these things must be balanced, both with themselves and with all the other classes. They have to make sense, and they have to fit. This is certainly an example where player input has come to bear, but ultimately, again, it's our job as GMs to make sure that what makes it into the game makes sense, fits, and is balanced.
  I will say this about Skalds and Spellswords: These classes have been re-balanced and hopefully the key issues with abilities have been addressed, such as making some of them more useful and not just for RP value. It is now a matter of implementation, which is a non-trivial undertaking. As such, I'm sorry that I cannot give a schedule on when they may be in-game.
  Crafting: The changes to crafting at the beginning of the year were controversial to some, embraced and applauded by some, and simply accepted by most as one of many changes that have come about over the years. These changes were discussed and tested for months before they made it into the game, though many questioned why we made such changes. There were several reasons, really: Balance, economy, realism and sadly, abuse. The number one negative comment seems to be that people disagree with the batch limits placed on crafting. I understand this myself, but understand this was done primarily for three reasons: 1) realism (and yes, not all things in crafting are real, but at the same time it makes no sense to simultaneously scribe 5 scrolls or make 3 suits of armor in a single effort), 2) speed of progression and flooding of the market and 3) XP abuse. For the second, slowing crafting was seen as a way to help nudge an economy that was starting to spiral away back into some semblance of balance. For the third, I think everyone was aware that if you were really close to a new level in crafting that you could load up a station with large amounts of CNR and batch-craft up to 99 of one single item and get extra XP as a result, much like if you do not level when your adventuring XP says you can, and you continue to acrue XP at a potentially higher rate than you should. It's sad, but it was known to happen, and placing limits was the only reliable way to prevent that.
  It's unfortunate, to me, that this change seemed to bother some people so much. As a crafter myself, I understand that limits on crafting translates into more clicking and more time, but believe me when I say, this very issue was discussed and discussed when we were working on these changes. The fact is that now the system is more dynamic and we can make these changes on-the-fly, so that when a particular limit does not make as much sense, we can adjust it. We will not, however, be removing them. The reason is not that we're not listening...the reason is balance.
  On farming: I realize that a lot of people think this is silly. D&D isn't about farming...D&D is about adventuring and RP. And this is true. Though D&D is also not about crafting, about owning houses and many other things that happen in the game. As Talan mentioned above, farming did grow, in part, out of suggestion from a player. Now, people may be wondering, "Why do we need/want farming?" Well, I'll give you at least a partial answer to that.
  Farming will become important as we switch to NWN2. I won't give out any major details, as they're still in flux and you know how rumors can go. Suffice it to say, farming will come into play as just one of several inter-linked social and economic systems that will be a part of things we have planned for NWN2. At least that's the current thinking, but a lot needs to be worked out on that. Farming is going in now, in NWN1, so that we can test it, shake it down, and get it working smoothly and efficiently before put into widespread use.
  On general secrecy: Whether you wish to believe me or not, there's not some vast GM conspiracy to keep players in the dark, jumping at shadows or anything like that. There's not some concerted effort to hoarde information and keep it from the general player base. There are naturally some things which we keep to ourselves...discussions about on-going quests, problems with players, and so forth.
  When it comes to main plot information, and by that I mean information about plot items that have not yet happened, all I can really say is in general GMs don't know either. In most cases, the only GMs who do know are Leanthar and EdTheKet. Occasionally, Leanthar will need someone to help with some side-plot quests, in which case a few bits of things are divulged ONLY to those who assist him, and that's it. It's probably a popular belief that we as GMs know what's going to happen and that gives our characters some kind of advantage. I'm telling you right now, that is simply not the case.
  Questions about deities, regions and so forth....well, this has been covered a lot, and so I really have little else to say on it. Much of the information does not exist. That which does exist and is not generally known is not in its final form. Once it is, it will be released to LORE and then later integrated into the Handbook. It's that simple. Again, it's not a "secret" it's just not ready, it's not finished or it does not exist.
  On summons: This comes up a lot. And I honestly doubt that everyone will ever be truly happy with how the summons turn out. We have a fantastic system that's based on deity and alignment, but that system is also complex. We're balancing as many as 9-10 summons each for 28 deities and trying to make each summons useful in some way or the other. It's unfair to compare one summon to the next, as each has different strengths and ideal uses. Having said that, a review of summons is on our list, and said review probably will begin shortly, and will certainly be revisited as we move to NWN2. This review may result in changes...or it may not. I cannot say, as I do not know. But it will be looked at and reviewed....and again, this is initiated by player input.
  On fear: I personally believe that this view is unfortunate. As GMs, we are not out to get anyone. That GMs are held to a higher standard than other players (and yes, we're players too), that someone can always contact Leanthar and report the misconduct of a GM at any time in itself is reason enough for us to not target or persecute individuals we do not like.
  To my knowledge, not a single person has ever been banned for speaking an opinion or for reporting misconduct of a GM. People have been banned, however, for voicing their opinions in a harsh, abusive, disruptive, disrespectful and/or vulgar manner. Opinions are fine...they're great in fact.  But an air of civility and respect is always important.
  One other thing I'd like to point out. Leanthar has ultimate say over who is and is not banned. Besides him, only a small handful of GMs even have sufficient access to ban someone, either from the game or from the forums. And if one of us just randomly banned someone without suitable cause (which again, has not happened), Leanthar could and likely would reverse that banning AND take disciplinary measures against the GM who did that.
  Maybe the community does not see this, but the GM team does hae checks and balances.
  On changes in general: Some changes are easy and fast, others are not, though they may seem like they are at the time. I can tell you from direct experience that there is very little that is quick about working with the Layonara modules. The modules themselves are very large (in excess of 65MB each, with West cresting over 90MB), which means slow to open, slow to build, slow to upload, and so forth. Most of our systems are linked together in one way or the other, even if perhaps it is not a direct linkage. It takes time and lots of it to make sure the modules are all updated consistently and correctly.
  As I type this, I am working on some last-minute inclusions for tonight's plot quests. Once the plot quests are over, there may be more changes...some small, some large...and all dependent upon the outcome This world is in a constant state of evolution and change. Some changes you may see...others you may not. But they're there...trust me, they're there.
  If Layonara were a commercial venture, things would surely be different. We could devote more manpower to implementation, response times would likely be quicker, and we would surely concentrate on the "big" things first, going for the "easy" things second. That's not the case, however, and we try to do the best we can with the time and resource we have. However, since it is not, we work with what we can, doing the best we can, trying to give the biggest bang-for-the-buck that we can.

[Leanthar]

Very good post Dorganath, thank you. And right on the money.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Hmmmm.... layonara becoming large.....  growing....  where have I heard that before?  *smirks*  

On a more serious note, I have wondered about the need for advertisement and recognition myself, Ar7.  Do we need recognition to know we're the best?    Though I do know that the advertisement has brought some very good players here, as well as some of the grumpier ones.  I suppose I'm still wondering on this.

[Thunder Pants]

i'd like to point out that quite honestly the ban list for Layonara is very very small, every ban is made public knowledge when it happens (this is so rumors don't start and so the DM team can explain why he was banned before rumors the fly) i have been around for all but the very first banning (saw the forum post though explaining that he was banned for being a general nuisence, and trying to destroy the server (this being before the password protection) and i'm fairly certain that the ban list is actually less then 40 names, for a server of this size and has been up as long as this server has, that is a very small number, and i can safely say that everybody i can remember that was banned was rightfully banned

the whole i'm leaving and here are my parting shots thing was at one time a common occerence, and in my oppinion is a horrible thing to do, it's the, "i'm not having any fun in this game i don't pay for, so i'm going to leave, but before i do, let me spit in your face"  i have the utmost respect for the DM team because they put their hard work and effort into trying to make this game more fun for everyone, none of them make any money at it, and infact Leanthar spends a good deal of money keeping the servers open, trust me, that donation button on the top of the page is not a get rich quick scheme

the fear thing is an unfortunete side effect of a system that splits people down a line such as in this case players and DMs (yes i know DMs are players as well but more on that later) the DMs have a form of power in the DM toolkit controls, there are some players that believe the DMs are out to get them, which is simply not true, will the DMs sometimes get your character killed, yes, will those deaths sometimes result in a death token, yes......but this is because the DMs job is to challenge players, this game isn't as fun when there is no challenge to the gameplay (i'll grant there is a small amount of enjoyment in slaughtering goblins but it's very fleeting) no unfortunetly at times to make the game more challenging the DMs have to place more, or more often, different creatres down, the idea of this is not to kill the player, or even make him say "thats new a DM must be running an impromptu quest i'll go talk to it" (btw bad idea if it's a strange looking ogre in the haven mines that isn't normally there, treat it as another ogre in the haven mines as it more then likely is) they do it because they are trying to challenge you, and while it will sometimes result in the character dying, that was not the intent, the DMs never perposly kill somebody unless they do something very very very very very......STUPID!!!

the other thing that comes up at times is people who think the DM characters get special treatment, this is again an unfortunete side effect of policy, because there are Players that are also DMs, the players that are not DMs often times assume that it means the DMs favor that player and either go easy on them, or give them stuff, this is of course compounded due to the fact that many of the DM characters actually have stuff, but that is not because they are DMs, that is because they have been around for 2+ years, and the stuff has built up.  This problem like the fear problem is one the DM team will always have to deal with, as the only way to solve the problem would be to say that the DMs can not be players.......this is not an option though, if you deny a DM the right to also be a player, then you will get absolutly no volenteers for GM, and the few GMs you would get, would quickly be burned out and not want to do it anymore after say a month or 2

[dadunmir]

Ar7, excellent thread you've started.  I read a lot of constructive discussion in the posts above.

I will have to agree with Thunderpants' view on the fear concept.  It is unfortunate that some have come to fear DM's.  They do only as the Thunderpants stated and that is challenge.  Many feel quite a bit of remorse from resultings death due to impromptu events.  I've been part of many of these and in some cases (which I find unfortunate) the DM has came out and stated that the current events were a result of his/her involvment.  It is in my opinion quite obvious when the DM comes into play and when a DM has to come out and apologize in advance for the challenges he/she is laying out to the players I find it detracts from the fun.

The growth of the community brings not only new character but the new people behind them as well.  That is a lot of differing opinions.  Most of the differing opinions I've found are on how to play the game.  I think this is most readily identified by the small groups that form.  Granted, there is the social aspect of the game, meeting new people.  However, as time marches on, many end up grouping themselves with others that play/roleplay in a similar way.  To touch on the above paragraph here, I think it is fair to say that after a while many develop a certain comfort in how they have been playing the game.  It is when the DM intervenes that many of us end up pushed out of that zone.  I think it important to point out the the player to DM ration is still in favor of the player and so some players can go quite a bit of time with out a "known" DM intereaction.  Some handle this interaction  differently than others and with the size of the community that can range from one extreme to the other.

Just my two cents, one for each paragraph.  Again, a wonderful thread and lots of very interesting things to read.  As the community grows so does it change.  Both, I think, are critical to its success.  In the end, I think the player needs to ask him/herself whether or not this is the community for them.  As Thunderpants pointed out, it is free after all.