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Author Topic: the current death system good or not good  (Read 426 times)

jrizz

the current death system good or not good
« on: June 04, 2008, 02:11:10 pm »
This is a thread to discuss how we feel about the current system. There is another thread about proposals on new systems going on here:
http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/179562-dts-3.html#post973902

Please come and bring your ideas or proposals to that thread. But if you just want to talk about how much you like or dislike the current system use this thread.

I will start it off. I feel that permadeath is a great thing to have in a world like ours it really adds the flavor of risk (for most of us) to the game and I like it. But with that said I feel there are many things that can be improved about our system of permadeath. So if I had to vote on the current system I would say it needs an overhaul. And just to be clear here are my stats:

7 PCs on Layo of those only three have gotten real time
Glenn Thendor - Permed at level 15 died 151 times. He was my first PC and I had not even read the death system until he had 7 SS lost :)
Wren Thendor - 22nd level 10 SS lost died 85 times (6 to technical issues. I only put in for one of those back it was denied do to no witnesses. It was the right ruling)
Cam Cutter - 8th level 2 SS lost  died 16 times (none to technical issues)
Number of returned SS in the last 3+ years of play = 1

I assume I am a very average player by stats (with the exception of Glenn who died a lot LOL)
 

lonnarin

Re: the current death system good or not good
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2008, 05:42:38 pm »
Disclaimer: First, I hope I do not come off as overly critical of this, as this IS still the best bloody server in the entire history of NWN, and its team obviously one of the most skilled, talented and created on earth.  I do however have very strong opinions on *this* one issue.

On whether players prefer this system, I believe that if a majority of players truly supported permadeath as being what was best for them, many MMORPGs currently raking in the big bucks would have added such systems to their own servers.  However, considering that they pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to market analysts and playtesters, the very fact they haven't adopted permadeath proves that it is not profitable or enjoyable to most and does not lead to longterm retention of the majority of players.  

I also believe that should there be permadeath in the pay-to-play version, it will quickly be rescinded due to the sheer number of cancelled subscriptions and ANGRY ranting posts demanding reimbursement.  Just look at the WoW forum posts of all those bitter little people who never even had a character perm.  At the most there should be a "Time-Out" system or XP loss for death, people can handle that when they invest 15 bucks a month.  But if there is permanant loss of characters in the next system due to crashes, bugs, lagspikes and the like, not many subscriptions will be retained for long.

Now it has been repeatedly stated that the disputes forum has almost been shut down repeatedly over the amount of Soul Strand reimbursment requests, which I flat out reject.  That's like saying "too many people complained about kids skateboarding in their driveway this month, thats it... No more Police Department!  Let the looters run wild, you brought this on yourselves."  We could just as easily just state in a sticky "no more soul strand reimbursements, from now on use this board for what it was intended for".  

Furthermore,  I think that every single one of those reimbursement requests are to be counted in this debate, each and every single one of them in known Layo history was the sworn testimony of at least one player in this world that the system in place was faulty *at least in this instance* and that they were unjustly penalized by it.  Silencing those voices wont make the resentment go away, it would just build.  Don't look at them as requests for reimbursement, but as bug reports on the permadeath system.  I think you will find that if you counted up each and every reimbursement report in known history and compared them to the bug reports relating to any other topic, the prior would dwarf the latter.

Now on the other hand, I understand the desire to have it in place, since the RP side of things, people SHOULD die for good.  We are all not raging revenants respawning in some Quake Tournament.  In my experience however, Bjornigar has 3 death tokens and only one of those was rightfully earned.  The other two were due to crashes, bugs, lag spikes, etc.  So no matter what is said in favor of the RP factors of permadeath, I the player and Bjornigar the character have been penalized IC for OOC factors 2/3 of the time.  No matter how well you plan, how good the party is or how much you've trained and scouted, some mage is still going to cast 20 magic missiles while you're immobilized by a lag spike.  You didn't die because the mage was better or smarter, you died because a router in a different dimension had a hiccup.  *points above* Wren Thendor should have 6 more tokens left, whether he made the reports or not.  In Game, In Character, Wren Thendor is still alive.

Honestly, I shouldn't really care about this whole issue on a personal level because I am so meticulous it would be very very difficult for me to perm.  But seeing that the system in place thus far has been inaccurate 2/3 of the time for myself, I wonder if the same ratio so exists with people with 9 death tokens.  Computers crash, programs bug, graphic textures corrupt and bad things happen at random.  But for somebody to crash into permadeath is about the same RP equivalent of if they were playing PnP, somebody accidentally spilled soda on their character sheet, and then the DM at the table said "roll up a new character, he's dead.  Weasels ate him in game while he stood there motionless with 309 hp for 5 minutes and let them nibble him to death".  If that happened after 2 years of investment in a PnP campaign, would you return to the same table again?  Personally, I would rather perm on a quest, monitored by a GM where my deeds where known, and not to a Microsoft spyware bug or flood of Mountain Dew.

Now as for reports of people abusing the bindstones as a teleportation system, deal with such issues on a case-by-case basis.  I have seen no public reprimands or reports naming names, so collective punishment seems a bit harsh as a FIRST resort.  If I have a few bad eggs, do I kick the chicken?  Or do I just throw out the bad and keep the fresh?  I've never been a big fan of collective punishment, as it's like using a bazooka as a flyswatter.

Again, I personally have never even come close to perming so I shouldn't be so opinionated about this.  However, I HAVE seen a revolving door of good friends come and go because they lost hope at 9 or 14 DTs or got fed up with seeing some reibursed and others not, so in terms of the people I love vanishing from the server and being another one of the 7500+ forum members out of the 30-50 currently active players, it has affected me.  I see project team members and coders sitting there having to meticulously go through all these reports and muttering "I should be doing something more important, this is a waste of my time, etc" and getting demoralized by the sheer anxiety that it causes.  I agree, you could be spending your time better.  All it would take would be just simply denying ALL strand reimbursements.  One little forum sticky, vs a delgue of omnipresent requests.  The moderators could deal with REAL issues, and the players could just accept "no" for an answer.

If the only reimbursement requests approved should be done so with a GM witness to vouch for it, then why not take it one step further?  Have it so only GMs can request reimbursement for the players.  Everything else, lag, crashes, angry girlfriends turning off the machine should be at your own risk.  

As it is now, the Disputes Board is so clustered with SS requests, either the permadeath system is more unstable than what it's worth, or the player populace clearly doesnt want it in place.  With all the threats to shut down ALL disputes over the volume of one single type of dispute, then perhaps its finally time we admit that the permadeath system has caused more strife than its worth in benefitting RP and gameplay.

So I offer two simple and easy solutions, change permadeath as it is now to something more reliable, or just quit accepting requests for reimbursement of strands at all to begin with.  If you need a GM witness to have it approved, then the players should contact that GM directly and it should be up to him/her to make the request.

As far as what my preference is, I would rather see time out than permadeath.  But if we keep the system as it is, I would like to point out that not once have I clustered the disputes forum whining over my crashes.  I simply clog your heads with endless debate on various other forums to address the primary issue instead.  ;)

So I totally understand the reasons for wanting it in place, and the ones to scrap it.  It's a double-bladed sword.  On the one hand we want more realism in death, on the other, we want more enjoyment of the game based on fantasy.  As in most debates, it is unlikely that any single solution or side will please all of the people all of the time.  Never truly a win/win situation, so I suggest a compromise.
 

jrizz

Re: the current death system good or not good
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2008, 07:20:41 pm »
Thank you for your very well thought out post. You brought up points that even in all the time I have spent on the subject was not able to clarify as well as you have. I will borrow heavily from your post in the future.
 

Frances

Re: the current death system good or not good
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2008, 07:30:06 pm »
I saw a suggestion earlier that the number of soul strands be random for each character and not known.  You could have, say, 6+1d4 soul strands.  You'd know how many you'd lost, but not how many you have left.

I think those who play WoW and the like because they get their enjoyment from the game mainly by leveling their character ("Woo, look at me, I'm Badazzdude, a 60th level dark elf mage who can take on two dozen dragons by myself" (disclaimer: I've never played WoW)).  These people would be turned off by any permadeath system.  Me, I get my enjoyment from Layo by adding on a heaping helping of RP ("Hey, I'm Tugs Sunnytoes from Lan's Port.  Ooo, those ogres look really tough.  Maybe we should just go have some pie?").  Maybe if my character was one of those who loved battle, I wouldn't mind charging into a dozen giants who all looked 'very difficult', but I think most characters should look at a situation like that and decide to use the better part of valor, no matter how many XP they were worth.

I think there are those out there that really have no respect for danger.  They charge in, confident in the bindstone's ability to restore them, without real thought about the dangers in doing so.  This system would allow them to do that, but as they progressed (and theoretically grew wiser), they would learn to do better and work at not getting killed (say, after losing the sixth soul strand).  

One last comment: taking the Strong Soul feat should give you an extra soul strand, or at least a plus to saves against the Soul Mother.
 

Eight-Bit

Re: the current death system good or not good
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2008, 12:45:54 pm »
lonnarin is entirely correct about the death system. People who don't understand Layonara and haven't played the NWN version for ages aren't going to get it.
 

AeonBlues

Re: the current death system good or not good
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2008, 03:31:17 pm »
What about the idea of factoring the bug strand losses into the equation?

If the staff were to conclude that 1 out of 3 soul strand losses is due to a bug, whether witnessed or not, then increase total strands from 10~15 to 15~20.

Now staff can say, "We are not every going to reimburse strand loss, but we have given you 5 strands just for bugs."

AeonBlues
 

EdTheKet

Re: the current death system good or not good
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2008, 04:11:19 pm »
Quote from: Eight-Bit
lonnarin is entirely correct about the death system. People who don't understand Layonara and haven't played the NWN version for ages aren't going to get it.


You mean the NWN death system. The new one will be "gettable", it's one of the requirements.
 

jrizz

Re: the current death system good or not good
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2008, 05:15:10 pm »
Quote from: AeonBlues
What about the idea of factoring the bug strand losses into the equation?

If the staff were to conclude that 1 out of 3 soul strand losses is due to a bug, whether witnessed or not, then increase total strands from 10~15 to 15~20.

Now staff can say, "We are not every going to reimburse strand loss, but we have given you 5 strands just for bugs."

AeonBlues


Well for the NWN version, as I understand it that calculation was already done and that is why there are 10 SS and not 5 SS.

For the MMO I have come to the mind that a permadeath system is just not going to be good for business. I personally like what permadeath adds to the  game but in a pay to play it will just not fly with the general populace nor will any really heavy death penalties. A eased down version of the reflection system is about all that may make it.
 

AeonBlues

Re: the current death system good or not good
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2008, 03:50:57 am »
Quote from: jrizz
Well for the NWN version, as I understand it that calculation was already done and that is why there are 10 SS and not 5 SS.

For the MMO I have come to the mind that a permadeath system is just not going to be good for business. I personally like what permadeath adds to the  game but in a pay to play it will just not fly with the general populace nor will any really heavy death penalties. A eased down version of the reflection system is about all that may make it.


Life is all about trading one set of problems for another.  When I ask myself "What makes Layonara so enjoyable?"  I have to answer that it is a world rich in story.  

I remember Glenn speaking with Cym and Nepp about his impending death. Then him making a yew bow, and the ceremony that followed.  I remember Cym standing in the Anerauch and saying, "We have to be careful, this is where Glenn was lost."  Glenn's story had a huge impact on me as a player, making me aware of the real drama we share as characters cease to exist.


There are more things about Layonara that I deeply love and appreciate then any other game world.  There are some aspects that I find very frustrating, but no other NWN(2) world or MMO has been able to hold my interest for more then a few weeks.  I doubt that the new MMO is being targeted as game for the masses.  Layonara holds a standard that is by nature marketable only to gamers who place a high value RP and immersion, and should be advertised as such.

So to me the question is not "Will the MMO sell to the masses?" but "Will gamers who want the highest standards of RP, know that the Layonara MMO exists?"

To another poster who pointed out that a zillion or so players are registered on the forum, but only a handful are active players....  Leanthar announced 2 years ago that NWN was an ancient game, and here we are today.

AeonBlues
 

mixafix

Re: the current death system good or not good
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2008, 04:36:15 am »
I'd rather see progression where pcs advance and come and go, and players stay. People as stated above talk about events and loss etc and without this risk the game would lose something.

Rather than a % chance of loss of soul strand a number,( random or otherwise) could be set for every death one of a number of soul strands is lost every death. All the debate is taken away as no one currently disputes death without a soul strand. I dont think the pressure would be there to debate any but the last few of say for example 80-100 soul strands.

That said I think it is too late to change anything in the current version of Layo.

Also more importantly I love it all and maybe it is a healthy sign when you can debate right right down to this level...I step back and am saying Layonara WOW I love it all and I thank everyone involved from start to finish top to bottom, builder to player, you all make it so
 

 

anything