Author Topic: THE ULTIMATE WEAPON (Read 1405 times)

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **on:** February 17, 2007, 11:55:04 am »

I'm wondering about what the ultimate weapon would be In Layo. And I mean as a straight, unenchanted blade(except keen). Meaning I wonder what the best, plain forged, weapon would be if combined with the feets , Improved Critical, , and Keen Edge (as a weapon property, already built in [ex Keen Greatsword]). Any and all ideas are welcome, as well as if something even better is possible.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2007, 12:04:41 pm »

A copper rapier in the hands of an epic-level Duelist.

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2007, 12:06:44 pm »

Now why would you say that?

Jearick Hgar · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2007, 12:14:08 pm »

Quote

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/17/2007 12:04 PM

A copper rapier in the hands of an epic-level Duelist.

or a coper scimitar in the hands of an epic-level WM

my reason. 10-20 crit range, X3 crit, overwhelming crit add mroe damage, ad if you got devistating crit, any roll 10+ would be a death threat. thsi is a strenth only build btw.

The rapier same reason, though i stick with WM, maybe do WM/Duelist, though this would be for a Dex build not a str build.

IDii · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2007, 12:21:45 pm »

My answer would be common sense.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2007, 12:34:54 pm »

I wouldn't go Weapon Master/Duelist, because that would just weaken the Duelist levels... And no point in getting Mithril over Copper because the damage bonus from Enhancement is overwritten by Precise Strike damage. +3 to hit isn't that much...

You're right about the threat range and the crit multiplier; I just feel that the extra Precise Strike damage on every hit, as well as the DEX and INT to AC are worth more.

Let's say you take a 10 Rogue/30 Duelist.

Sneak Attack +5d6
Evasion
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Improved Evasion or Crippling Strike

Whirlwind Attack
Acrobatic Attack +8
Grace +12
Elaborate Parry +30
Canny Defense adds double INT bonus.

BAB would be +27/+22/+17/+12.

For feats, we'd assume all of the Duelist Prerequisites, plus Improved Critical (rapier), and assuming they didn't get Combat Prowess.

The attack stats for the rapier (copper rapier, totally unenchanted) would be

Rapier +28/+23/+18/+13 (plus DEX bonus on each attack).
3d6 (plus STR bonus) 15-20/x2

Now, if you tried Acrobatic Attack, you'd probably kill anything you aimed at.

Looking at a WM with a scimitar, though, the WM is more suited to destroying things, but honestly... *Grins.* Dex-based fighters are better.

As to why I chose Rogue over Fighter? Sneak attack and special abilities, not to mention the usefulness of INT. Also, there's more of a focus on skills and such than armor or shield proficiencies, neither of which benefit the Duelist.

EDIT: IDii's is better.

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #6 on:** February 17, 2007, 12:53:13 pm »

Can you even add keen to a weapon permanently?

Drizzlin · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2007, 01:10:12 pm »

Quote

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/17/2007 12:34 PM

I wouldn't go Weapon Master/Duelist, because that would just weaken the Duelist levels... And no point in getting Mithril over Copper because the damage bonus from Enhancement is overwritten by Precise Strike damage. +3 to hit isn't that much...

You're right about the threat range and the crit multiplier; I just feel that the extra Precise Strike damage on every hit, as well as the DEX and INT to AC are worth more.

Let's say you take a 10 Rogue/30 Duelist.

Sneak Attack +5d6
Evasion
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Improved Evasion or Crippling Strike

Whirlwind Attack
Acrobatic Attack +8
Grace +12
Elaborate Parry +30
Canny Defense adds double INT bonus.

BAB would be +27/+22/+17/+12.

For feats, we'd assume all of the Duelist Prerequisites, plus Improved Critical (rapier), and assuming they didn't get Combat Prowess.

The attack stats for the rapier (copper rapier, totally unenchanted) would be

Rapier +28/+23/+18/+13 (plus DEX bonus on each attack).
3d6 (plus STR bonus) 15-20/x2

Now, if you tried Acrobatic Attack, you'd probably kill anything you aimed at.

Looking at a WM with a scimitar, though, the WM is more suited to destroying things, but honestly... *Grins.* Dex-based fighters are better.

As to why I chose Rogue over Fighter? Sneak attack and special abilities, not to mention the usefulness of INT. Also, there's more of a focus on skills and such than armor or shield proficiencies, neither of which benefit the Duelist.

EDIT: IDii's is better.

What is the difference between their AC in the best armor they can both wear?

Witch Hunter · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2007, 02:05:46 pm »

Well Pyyran - in a one on one fight a weapon master with a scimitar will win, your sneak attacks won't do much good.
At level 7 weapon master his crit rate becomes 12-20 without keen, 10-20 with and the multiplier x5... that's more than 70 damage every second attack with a normal copper scimitar.

Now at level 33/7 fighter/wm He'd have devestating critical

meaning you'd roll a fort save every second attack or die, and even if you manage there's still the critical + overwhelming critical to deal with - which is just as bad as Acrobatic Attack.

Force_of_Will_ · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2007, 02:16:16 pm »

no keen is only through spells.
keen perm weapons would be to unbalanced just like perm haste.

Jearick Hgar · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2007, 03:03:11 pm »

hmm gotta counter Pyyran.

i don't know mucha bout DUelist, but i know A LOT about WM. soemthign like a 5 fighter 5 Rogue 30 WM, would have rediculous High AB, and all the skilsl needed such as UMD and Tumble. With the AC being onyl a little less. Also, becuase they are STR base, they do more damage than a Dex based. so while the Dex will be slightly harder to hit, the str wm would hit harder and better.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2007, 03:15:33 pm »

In a straight fight, the Duelist would win against the WM. Why? Two words.

Parry Mode.

They would get the same number of attacks... Let's think about what a 10 Rogue/30 Duelist would have for a Parry check.

Max Ranks 43 + Elaborate Parry 30 + Dex somewhere around +14ish.

That's already +87.

Jearick Hgar · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2007, 03:26:56 pm »

Quote

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/17/2007 3:15 PM

In a straight fight, the Duelist would win against the WM. Why? Two words.

Parry Mode.

They would get the same number of attacks... Let's think about what a 10 Rogue/30 Duelist would have for a Parry check.

Max Ranks 43 + Elaborate Parry 30 + Dex somewhere around +14ish.

That's already +87.

but does he hit? and woudl he always succeede? diciplin is a str based skill as well. by 40 the WM's str could be rediculously high cuz of greater str. and the base would be 43, then he could wear discp giving items. the discp could end up equaling the Parry. adn that puts the WM up again.

jan · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2007, 03:33:38 pm »

Quote

Jearick Hgar - 2/18/2007 12:26 AM

Quote
Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/17/2007 3:15 PM

In a straight fight, the Duelist would win against the WM. Why? Two words.

Parry Mode.

They would get the same number of attacks... Let's think about what a 10 Rogue/30 Duelist would have for a Parry check.

Max Ranks 43 + Elaborate Parry 30 + Dex somewhere around +14ish.

That's already +87.

but does he hit? and woudl he always succeede? diciplin is a str based skill as well. by 40 the WM's str could be rediculously high cuz of greater str. and the base would be 43, then he could wear discp giving items. the discp could end up equaling the Parry. adn that puts the WM up again.

Dont forget expertice and the dicipline that will make him almost imune too sneak attacks and such :-)

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2007, 03:42:23 pm »

Discipline has absolutely no effect on sneak attacks or parrying attempts, only on Knockdowns, Disarms, and Called Shots. Expertise only adds to AC. As to whether or not the Duelist would always hit, it doesn't matter. The WM would NEVER hit, at least while the Duelist was in Parry Mode. (Excepting Critica- Oh.) The Duelist's probable lack of Discipline ranks wouldn't matter, as if a Knockdown, Called Shot, or Disarm attempt is parried, the character doesn't have to resist it. And let's not forget that this Duelist would probably have a Swashbuckler's Sabre at the least, as well as Gloves of the Scouts or even Greater Gloves of Swordplay. Critical hits. Rats. Forgot about those pesky things. XD Yeah, WM would win.

Yamada · « **Reply #15 on:** February 17, 2007, 03:50:42 pm »

In my experience parry doesn't always actually work. I found that usually it only works on 3-4 attacks per round and the rest usually hit no matter how high the parry, although it may be due to problems with the game not being unable to keep up with it or something...

Witch Hunter · « **Reply #16 on:** February 17, 2007, 04:01:36 pm »

Quote

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/17/2007 3:15 PM

In a straight fight, the Duelist would win against the WM. Why? Two words.

Parry Mode.

They would get the same number of attacks... Let's think about what a 10 Rogue/30 Duelist would have for a Parry check.

Max Ranks 43 + Elaborate Parry 30 + Dex somewhere around +14ish.

That's already +87.

lol, easily.
Switch on a bow - you dont attak - the moment you leave parry mode switch back to weapons.
It's been tried a lot in PVP servers but parry mode isn't really great.. needless to mention that your counter attacks wont even hit half of the times - and that a weapon master can use parry mode as well and then youd just stand there staring at eachother.

And at best on a dex based person you do what.. 30 damage? :p out of like 400 hp of a fighter level 40? thats assuming he has no Con bonus or toughness.

All a weapon master needs is 1 dev critical to kill you :O and his AB is much more higher than yours (All those bonus feats go into extra str... thats quite a lot of AB without considering the WM considerable bonus, and the fact his base class is fighter and not rogue)

The reason why sneak attacks are useless in a one on one fight is because hes not a shadowdancer, he wont get to hide and use sneaks - if he chugs a potion to invis himself - well, assuming that potions are ok, you just count it with a potion of heal or hell, just gnomish lenses.

akata · « **Reply #17 on:** February 17, 2007, 04:08:12 pm »

Quote

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/18/2007 12:15 AM

In a straight fight, the Duelist would win against the WM. Why? Two words.

Parry Mode.

They would get the same number of attacks... Let's think about what a 10 Rogue/30 Duelist would have for a Parry check.

Max Ranks 43 + Elaborate Parry 30 + Dex somewhere around +14ish.

That's already +87.

parry is bugged + you cant parry a natural 20 (but you will parry the 10-19 if the wm's crit range is so far), I tried using parry in the arena and it always end the same way, you parry 3 out of 4 attack. the second attack always slip though. I tried using parry on Maraliths (6 armed demon) seems it simple cant handle it fast enough. I get max 1 reposte attack on them. better add my parry is 70+ so its not because i dont roll high enough. So if parry worked the WM would have 5% chance to hit (rolling a 20) unless he duel wielded (to many attacks to parry)
besides from all that the post it about the best weapon not a build.

there isn't any clear choise as to what weapon is the best since monster have different resistance. go with what you think would be fun instead is my advise

LightlyFrosted · « **Reply #18 on:** February 17, 2007, 04:32:10 pm »

A critical hit only succeeds if it.. well.. hits. Anything excepting a natural 20 is not an automatic hit in most systems, although I will admit I don't know how Layonara handles this particular topic - or, for that matter, Neverwinter Nights.

Witch Hunter · « **Reply #19 on:** February 17, 2007, 04:40:19 pm »

Why would a Fighter/WM level 40 have troubles hitting? its the build with the highest BAB after Arcane Archer

And of course as Angela mentioned - 2 extra attacks from dual wielding with improved two weapon fighting is enough to deal 1 crit for almost certain :p