Too many people in GM events.

[Rembaxe]

I was gifted by an excellent suprise GM event about two weeks ago ran by Vyris. It was intense, had great roleplaying and created some new character relationships in Layronna.  We had about 10 people involved and it was great fun. A week after that Vyris scheduled a sequel event on the calender and he quickly had 30 people signed up. This time things were a bit different. It was chaotic, huge lag and people were often times talking over eachother so nothing could be understood. After the server crashed for the third time I decided to opt out.

These two events were my first two on the server and having played the first one I was extremely excited for the second. Unfortunately after playing the second one I'm extremely leery of any event put on the calender. Either the event is designed for the same small group of extremely high levels or the event has 30 people signed up for it. Now as someone who has designed and DMed his own NWN campaign I know how extremely hard it can be to DM for a group of even 5 people so I know that you DMs are doing extremely well for how massive this server is. There really needs to be more segregated events being made, for both the enjoyment of the players and the sanity of the DMs. I know an easy way to accomplish this is to simply make all the events for those same high level characters but I'm thinking more along the lines of creating a php system to limit how many events a player can sign up for in a period of two weeks. This is just one idea I have for this problem.

I'd like to hear what the community thinks of the problem and maybe we can brainstorm some ideas.

[Filatus]

Hmm,just got rolled out of Abbyss of the Soul. Four rolls of d20 and never above 10 *rolls eyes*. Anyway, I think the biggest problem that there often is a low levelcap, but almost never a cap for high levels.

[Zhofe]

Alot of quests have (or had a while ago) a limit on the number of people allowed to join ... I think the GMs just need to be a little bit more strict in regards to those limits.

I also think that restricting the number of quests a character can go on per month would help alot too. No reason that Bob the Cleric has to go on every quest out there.

Just my thoughts ... I don't go on many quests anyway.

[Rembaxe]

The thing about player caps being made super hard is that everyone will then be signing up for every event for the month just to make sure they get in.

[orth]

Filatus - 7/11/2005  9:43 PM
Anyway, I think the biggest problem that there often is a low levelcap, but almost never a cap for high levels.

Reconsider that statement by going through every event this month.  You'll find your conclusion is very wrong.  As a high level player I certainly know there are limited amount of quests for me to play on.

[Zhofe]

Well, that is why I also said restrict how many quests a person can go on per month. (I thought that would make more sense than every 2 weeks, as the calander is setup into months.)

We need limits on both I think.

[Imperious]

What if GMs kept track of who participated in each quest they ran and didn't allow the same character on consecutive quests?  Admittedly, people could still move from GM to GM but at least then:

1) they'd probably be seeing different people, different GM styles, etc.
2) given that many GMs have certain, preferred times they run quests, this might still effectively prevent some people from signing up for every quest because of time differences, etc.

Just a suggestion. It's tough to try to balance those who are very enthusisastic about playing on Layonara and can and want to particpate in all the quests (I'm quite jealous!) and those who can don't have the time and have to be selective in what they participate.  Don't want to damper one side's spirits, but you have to give others a shot too...

Imperious

[Thedan955]

I think rolls should definatly be implemented for ONLY the people that signed up on the calendar.  Most of the people that get on quests are friends of those already in it.  They just get tells saying "hey, there is a quest starting, you want in"  then they are in the group like that.  

If everyone that signed up on the callendar rolled and the GM took the 10 or 15 highest players then that would solve alot.  Rolling is equal chance for everyone.  When i played Everquest,  items dropped and we rolled for them.  Most of the time I was one of the people that could use it more or could put it to better use but on one particular item it took me 20 raids to finally get it.

Also i think consideration for other players could go a long way.  If youve been on 3 quests this week and someone that dosent play tha often because of his real life schedule signs up and wants to get in on a quest give him your spot.  Just remember what goes around comes around and you will be alot more respected if your willing to help versus higher level.  Because honestly,  the people that jump in on quests last minute are not for here for the story,  they are here to exp leech.

-Klugger

[Rehevkor]

Living in EST territory, I'm having a hard time finding quests to join that don't start at like 6am for me. Those I can join do tend to have huge parties.

The only fair solution I can see is having more DMs running quests, and make sure they're evenly distrubuted across the time zones so everyone has a chance to play.

[Filatus]

orth - 7/12/2005  3:54 AM

Filatus - 7/11/2005  9:43 PM
Anyway, I think the biggest problem that there often is a low levelcap, but almost never a cap for high levels.

Reconsider that statement by going through every event this month.  You'll find your conclusion is very wrong.  As a high level player I certainly know there are limited amount of quests for me to play on.

Statement reconsidered. It's maybe because I'm so slow at levelling that everyone looks impossble to me. Heh, can't see the actual level so yes, I could be wrong.

[Vyris]

My point of view on this has a couple different levels.

I would love to be able to have 30 people in my quests, I just can't manage that many.
I want to provide a level of immersion thats actually REALLY hard with even 10 people.
I want to allow people to RP thier stats and roll thier skills, the more people involved the less often I get around to everyone.

Another thing is, in a series you have key events and you need key players to trigger these events, if you don't get the same key players back for the entire series it is just a confusing mess because nobody will know what they are doing, let alone why. It was hard for me to pick people to put in my lucky hat for the maker quest to get branded, but I had to make a few judgement calls on who I thought would be most likely to be available every thursday for a month...

I think it would help if people would respect the party limit posted and not add themselves to a quest that has a cap of 15 and 15 people already signed up. If you really want to go on the quest then PM the GM and see if you can't work something out.

Vyris

[jjkolb]

I agree that it would be a good idea to limit the number of quests one can go on in a particular month.  Now in the case of a series, the PC should be able to be involved in the whole series, of course.  But maybe then, one series every other month?  Then again, this might be difficult to track so we may have to go by the honor system.

Oh, on a side note, I missed out on the 'Maker' series and the 'Cage' series, and while I am disappointed, I believe it is best that party size be limited to a manageable number.  Just my opinion.

[Leanthar]

"...The only fair solution I can see is having more DMs running quests, and make sure they're evenly distrubuted across the time zones so everyone has a chance to play..."
  *jaw drops*  More GM's?  The 20 quest GM's spread around the world are not enough for you?
  Anyways, I do know what you mean by that statement and I understand your feeling.  I am not sure what else we can do here folks.  We have a ton of GM's and they all run many quests but they do it while working around RL (including work and family).  There really is only so much that can be expected and I think the team is going way above and beyond their call of duty--after all it is all volunteer work and they deserve to play and have fun as well. 
  When we place hard limits on quests (and yes we are trying to do it again due to this thread as well as the lag it causes on servers and the gm's not having fun when the parties are too large) we tend to get a lot of hot replies of "favortism" or "why can't I go but he/she can" etc.  Remember, the GM's do not like running real large parties either, it just is not near as fun nor is it as immersive.  But the problem comes in to the fact that there is only so many GM's (and we have a lot of them) and so much time in the day--and then we get feedback from players of "why?" etc.
  We do our best and I don't think anybody can ask for more than that, at least in my opinion.

[HooD!uM]

layonara has alot of gm quests already...the only change id like to see is series quests. if a group starts the beginning of a series they should get first piority, as not a whole town would go looking for a single treasure. If there was slots available , then all means join in, but if the limit is met, well next time. the main plot quests are a different story altogether, as it affects everyone...and i guess the "suprise" quests (my favorite) would basically be for the party the GM would like to smite with evil fury *waves a fist at Dezza*....

[aragwen]

I think the GM's run great quests and the price they pay for this is getting more and more players onto their quests.
  Let me be one of the first to say that I will go on as many quests as possible because that is one way to meet other people and get exposed to different situations. Even though I try and make PST or EST quests I will mainly join GMT quests as it suits my timing better.
  Having said that, I would not feel offended at all if I was to get to a quest and gets turned away due to charater fit for the quest or dice rolls or whatever method you want to use. As long as it is fair and transparent. In actual fact I would strongly support such an act, because I think it makes the playing experience so much better. Being turned away at one quest means a better experience probably on the next quest I get accepted into. I know it is not nice, but GM's should probably get a bit firmer on the number of people on quests.
  Another idea perhaps is to give more detail on a quest and let people RP themselves onto it by way of PM or forum thread. That way people could get approved to go on the quest and maybe then add a couple more, by another way.
  Thanks to all for doing a great job. Keep it up.  And even though we nag for more quest we fully understand that you have real lifes as well.
  Regards Aragwen

[Chief Waha]

Well I don't know the situation well anymore, but back when I was GMing, a solution was having 2 GMs helping each other.  It doesn't help lag, but it does help keep the players involved.  There were a couple of times when I saw a group getting too large that I volunteered to drop out and helped the GM instead of playing.  I also know it helped having another GM around to help you out so you don't have to bounce back and forth all the time.  *shrugs*  Its always gonna be a problem with a great place that keeps expanding like Layonara.  You'll never have enough GMs to keep up with the player base.

[Rhizome]

I would like to make one simple comment here.  Most of the suggestions and comments above regarding what to do with overful quests concerns GM approach and actions.  We are currently discussing options and approaches amongst ourselves right now and something will be done in each case.  However, I strongly believe that the players also have a responsibility regarding keeping quest numbers manageable, perhaps even moreso.  It is surely much easier for me to look at the calendar and see that an event has too many people already and thus refrain from signining-up than it is to sign-up anyway and force the GM of the event to deal with the situation by himself at the beginning of the event.  If a quest is overful by 20 people, think about how much that is for one person to deal with.  GMs don't want to play the "bad guy" at the beginning of their events by restricting access and we shouldn't force them to.
  Thanks for reading my comments.
  Respect,
  Rhizome

[Thedan955]

Well alot of people just sign up and dont show up.  I remember reading a post a while back that it was good practice to put your name on the calendar and go anyway because some people on the list wont be there.  Unfortunatly since the new massive flow of new players,  thats not acceptable anymore.

What if we did away with signing up all together.  However i could see on series quests we can put names down of the people that have been to the previous quests.  For instance.... the prelude quest Klugger, Luna, Bido and Quantum were there.  So then those people are gaurenteed a spot.  But the second quest Klugger dosent show  so then he loses his quarenteed spot in the new quest.  Everyone else as well as klugger could roll for a spot.

On single quests i still think everyone rolling on a spot would be the best plan.

[Sakura]

A solution was having 2 GMs helping each other. It doesn't help lag, but it does help keep the players involved.

I tend to run quests solo, so everything you see and here is from my mind not another GM. Also I find that it becomes too chaotic with more then one GM behind the mirror of things, players end up very confused or dead.

if you don't get the same key players back for the entire series it is just a confusing mess because nobody will know what they are doing, let alone why.

Exactly, this is why on the Heart of the Elements I give TOP priority and say to the outsiders sorry. Because I don't want the key players to explain the situation to 16 to 20 diffrent people that happen chance to walk by. But at the same time, it keeps the story fresh in the minds of the key players so they are driven. Its a double-edge sword.

"...The only fair solution I can see is having more DMs running quests, and make sure they're evenly distrubuted across the time zones so everyone has a chance to play..."

*jaw drops*  More GM's?  The 20 quest GM's spread around the world are not enough for you?

We are only human.

We would LOVE to run 27 quests a month, but... if we did then we wouldn't be human

It is surely much easier for me to look at the calendar and see that an event has too many people already and thus refrain from signining-up than it is to sign-up anyway and force the GM of the event to deal with the situation by himself at the beginning of the event.

Yep, I would prefer that if you can't make it to my event. Please please remove yourself that way I can get an idea of how many over I'm going to be.

On a rather side note, We do have new GM's they are learning the toolset to make it so that we can have more quests for everyone to enjoy. Give them time, once they get everything set squared away. I'm sure that there will be more quest sets/imprompt quests from them.

Sakura

[ZeroVega]

"Give them time." Hehe, yes time. Unfortunatly for me I'm having writers block so my quests are a little shakey (and in the works). August should be a good month for quests. Expect some early after noon GMT quests, and some early/mid evening quests EDT.