The way that paragraph was worded, I believe it meant that those were the weapons they use most in their homeland,
Wemics are always seen carrying a few spears and a short bow. These are the weapons of the hunt, and these are the only weapons, apart from your claws, to kill prey with.
English Longbows were (are) enormous, so yes they wouldn't be good for use on horseback. However, as I understand it, the mongol's composite bows were made to give the same approximate power of an enormous wooden longbow, but in a much smaller package that they could use from horseback. The wood layer of the bow was sandwiched between a layer of horn on the inside, that would resist the compression of the bow being drawn, and layers of sinew? tendon? some kind of body fiber - that was stretched when the bow was pulled.
The above having been said, I would think it wasn't a problem at all for Wemics. Using a (normal) longbow from horseback would be ungainly because of the size of the bow and the need to move it from one side of the horse to the other to shoot, and to deal with the obstacle of the horse's head and neck in front of you when shooting. As far as using a bow is concerned, a Wemic would be just like a person, no obstacle to lift it over or shoot around, since it would be operated by the humanoid part of the body, which is at the front... not the same as a human sitting in the middle of a big horse body.
Now both of those above having been said... what I am wondering is where do we find weapons appropriately sized for wemics? Large-sized shortbows, longbows, scimitars, etc? A wemic is size large, and can wield a 'large' weapon in one hand.. so they should have larger versions of the weapons medium creatures would wield in two-hands, which they would wield in two-hands as well.
Bows..Pfft.. awesome in the real world.. not so here. Japanese archers ride horseback and Mongols were devistating as horseback archers.
Dual weild greatswords or even better, mecurial greatswords!
Arcane archer rogue
(Edit: Woops, Arcane archer can only be taken by Elf or Half Elf....what I get for shooting from the hip!)
As far as I know, there are no "large" versions of shortbows. Spears are already "large", I believe. That said, the shortbow will scale its size somewhat to the size of the holder, so it won't (or shouldn't) look disproportionate to the wemic's size. This is a limitation in something called "base types" rather than the notion that we just didn't create one. In other words, you don't need to find a "large" shortbow; any shortbow should do.
As for scimitars, longbows, etc...I refer you to what EdTheKet posted in response to the original inquiry:
QuoteThe way that paragraph was worded, I believe it meant that those were the weapons they use most in their homeland, It is worded like this: QuoteWemics are always seen carrying a few spears and a short bow. These are the weapons of the hunt, and these are the only weapons, apart from your claws, to kill prey with. and it says always And here's why: They live for the hunt, they die for the hunt, so they use those weapons. Also, longbows are really really unhandy if you're a wemic. Compare them to the horse archers of old, they had short bows, because you just can't use a longbow when galloping around on a horse. A wemic (like a centaur) can very much be compared to somebody shooting arrows from a horse, after all their torso is human, so hence shortbows. Longbows make you have to stand still and aim, shortbows allow you to shoot and run around your prey in circles. That's why.
These weapons are part of the culture and traditions of the wemic. The race is primarily included as an RP-heavy race with some boundaries as to how they are played. Just like how clerics tend to be limited to weapons preferred by their deities, wemics have similar limitations. Just because a wemic could (mechanically) wield a double battle axe in each hand (or even a longbow), does not mean it should...or would even...not without some significant RP justification, as with a cleric who wishes to use a non-preferred weapon. In my personal opinion, a wemic who takes up different weapons has more or less forsaken the traditions of its people, and would probably be shunned or at least looked at as being "corrupted" by outsiders if it showed up at its tribe carrying such things.
I suppose the key thing is whether one intends to play a wemic with all their attitudes, culture, etc. (as we more or less expect for all races, faiths, and so on)...or play a large lion-man beast-like thing because of its implied mechanics. The discussion above seems angled toward raw mechanics and what is physically possible. I don't think that's really a matter of debate. Would a wemic be physically capable of wielding a longbow? It most likely could physically handle such a weapon. But would a wemic do so? Almost certainly not.
When I was commenting about longbows above, I was refuting the notion that 'they couldn't wield a longbow because it would be too unwieldy, like when on horseback'. As for what you are saying, I half-agree with you.
Only half because of the way the race is set up. It says they all carry those weapons, which implies they're all trained in them before they would have adopted any formal class/profession. Its not bourne up by the nwn mechanics though... they don't have claws, and they are restricted to druid rogue ranger barbarian sorcerer and bard as starting classes. Druid can use spear but not shortbow, rogue and bard can use shortbow but not spear, ranger and barbarian can use both, and sorceror cannot use either one. Its why I think the race needs the things mentioned in that line as base racial abilities. I.e. claws, and proficiency with spear and shortbow.
On the other hand, I don't agree with the view that using any other weapon is alien to them. Every one of their starting classes has its own weapon sets that they are trained in, with many other weapons than shortbow/spear. The lore for them says that they would always be seen with spear and shortbow, as those are the weapons of the hunt.. and they're all about the hunt as a race. But the fact that they diversify into several classes shows they train for different roles outside the hunt as well. Hunting may be what they enjoy most, take the most pride in, normally the center of their lives, but I imagine they train for when the other skills are needed.. like the war with invading najashanians.
I suppose I'd draw a parallel with being a chef. They (at least the ones I've known) almost never go anywhere without a minimal chef kit that at least has their personal knives and favorite spices/seasonings. Being a chef is the central focus of their lives, but I don't think it constitutes a betrayal of all their chefly values if they want to sometimes paint as well, or if (for instance) they work as a fireman or policeman in addition to being a chef. When they do, they use other weapons and tools in that work than they would when pursuing chefly activities, but likewise they wouldn't use those other things when acting as a chef. Change that description with the wemic base classes, and hunting as a calling, respectively, and that's how I picture them.
When I was commenting about longbows above, I was refuting the notion that 'they couldn't wield a longbow because it would be too unwieldy, like when on horseback'. As for what you are saying, I half-agree with you.Only half because of the way the race is set up. It says they all carry those weapons, which implies they're all trained in them before they would have adopted any formal class/profession. Its not bourne up by the nwn mechanics though... they don't have claws, and they are restricted to druid rogue ranger barbarian sorcerer and bard as starting classes. Druid can use spear but not shortbow, rogue and bard can use shortbow but not spear, ranger and barbarian can use both, and sorceror cannot use either one. Its why I think the race needs the things mentioned in that line as base racial abilities. I.e. claws, and proficiency with spear and shortbow.
I believe I explained this to you in IRC, but for everyone else's benefit, Wemics are already ECL +2 subraces, in part because they depend on being a subrace of Human. Here is not the place to debate whether or not they should be ECL +2, as that decision was already debated and arrived at based on their current build and all the plusses and minuses relating to them. Adding the elements you suggest would bump them up into ECL +3 territory. It is a reasonable point you make, but it does not concern us overly that not all classes can use both shortbow and spear at level 1. More on this in a bit.
Moreover, Sorcerers and Bards among the wemic are very rare, and a Druid not using a bow is part of the class. (side note: there is precedent for bow-wielding Druids in the case of elves because of racial proficiencies. If there were such a narrow, specific thing we could apply to wemics, it would already be done.)
You are free to disagree of course, but you seem to be ignoring their culture and traditions here. Wemics, as written, are described in the tribal sense...how they are in their home territories. A Wemic living among the prides would use one of those three options exclusively. It's part of who they are as a culture. Whatever war they might have with the najashanians or any other invading force, they, as a culture, would use these weapons and their skills as hunters to defeat their enemies. They, as a culture, will not be going to the strange lands outside of their home and stockpiling the "exotic" weapons of humanoids in the hopes of better fending off their enemies. It's not how they think or believe. As I said, you are free to disagree with this all you want, but one would not ever see an army of metal-clad, dual-longsword wielding Wemics charging across the grasslands to meet their enemies.
There's also the aspect that this is how they are at Level 1...as brand new characters. That is what we're debating here, because you are suggesting we make changes to the starting build. The point about the feats necessary to use either a spear or a shortbow are certainly valid to a degree, but also not. The only reason they have any weight at all is that we put a bit of a limit on a wemic's starting weapons which is over and above the specific limitations of other classes. Going beyond these limitations requires choice and investment, just as it would be for any class. Beyond that though, each wemic is not a cookie-cutter copy of every other wemic, and while they may have received training in both, a preference may have emerged or the individual never really developed a proficiency for one or the other. A wemic PC Druid may have, for a time, trained in the use of both weapons but abandoned the bow as part of his druidic devotions. A Sorcerer wemic may have found she's a crappy hunter with either weapon, but zappy balls of plasma work pretty well, but as I said earlier, this is extremely rare. In this light, I do not really see a need to add feats to the base build to compensate for these specific cases, the most restrictive of which is very rare
I suppose I'd draw a parallel with being a chef.
A better, Layonara-centric parallel is an elf from Voltrex. An new elf character whose story has them leaving Voltrex is basically in a state of self-exile. They are not simply or immediately welcomed back, regardless of whether or not Voltrex is currently allowing visitors. As outcasts, they wouldn't be accepted back into elven society as full members without some significant sort of show of devotion or other act that helps/benefits Voltrex in some solid way...and then only if they agree to stay. An exiled Voltrexian elf may have its roots steeped in the traditions of Voltrex, and at Level 1 remains a product of these very traditions, as it spends more time away from Voltrex, the character grows more distant in literal and figurative ways from the Voltrexian way, but that first century or so of the elf's life still make a significant and lasting impression on the character's basic behaviors, beliefs, etc.
Similarly, a wemic who leaves the grasslands is leaving behind its people and its heritage. Its reasons for doing so might be curiosity or rebellion or feeling a draw to be elsewhere. Whatever the case, the longer it spends away, the more distant the traditions and customs become...but they are still deeply ingrained in the wemic's personality. Now, the wemics don't have the same sort of prohibition on returning, though like Voltrexian elves, they rarely leave. That said, the wemic coming back to its pride bearing the weapons of mankind would not be well-received. HOWEVER, as other parts of the wemic's description suggest, these other weapons are not forbidden to wemics...only that they do not start that way.
A wemic may really pursue any interests it wishes (i.e. become a painter like your hypothetical chef example), but it will not have done these things before leaving Veapra and certainly not by its Level 1 emergence into the PC realm.
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Topic: Wemic Weapons (Read 911 times)
