Too many people in GM events.

[Dalbarhedi]

Wahg, you beat me to posting about it :sweat:

But yeah, my post is a little more long-winded, more example-filled version of what he just said, with a few things added.

And incidentally, what I'm suggestng isnt really a replacement for the system in place. Its just a suggestion for something that could be added, as well as something I'd love to do myself. I mean, for 'big' quests, you obviously can just whip one out in a day or two . . . it takes some time to set up. I'm talking about the occassional spontaneous quest, maybe a few a day, depending on who's around (and what they like to do). And theyd be aimed at more lower-leveled characters, since theres already PLENTY to do for the higher-levels, as is evidenced by who all signs up for the calendar quests. I mean, a ninth level char isnt too useful against people going up into the dark rift, now is he?

[teefal]

Xerina - 7/12/2005  11:33 PM
At some point you start to feel like me. Why bother checking thier all going to be full or too high level anyway. That is honestly the point I am getting to with the calander it is starting to feel more like a waste of time then anything else.

I can relate.  Looking at the calendar, especially when you're new, feels pretty demoralizing.  Zerpa and I essentially lucked into a great quest the other day, and then last night's events.   But if it weren't for these, we'd have probably have given up on Layonara, not because of the quest problem, but because Layonara hadn't yet hooked us enough to overcome our fear of being no-nothing dunderheads in a crowd of seasoned RPers.   There's A LOT to know and learn.  The quests made the difference for us.

[Zhofe]

Requiring people to RP in order to get into a quest would make the quests take longer than they do. As it is quests can take 4 hours or more, and trying to set-up a quest hook to get enough players in would be difficult for the GMs, and strenuous on the players' time constraints. However, the spontanious quests you guys mentioned do happen. GMs have been known to just pop in and do things. I almost had my bed stolen by a gnome for instance.

Randomly choosing the quest-goers when they get there sounds like a good idea, but as it has been stated before, and time you do something "Random" people will feel that it was the cause of favoritism. Unless of course you show the dice-rolls you will be making, but that falls into the section above about taking up time.

I believe that players showing self-restraint in their quest selection, and not signing up for every quest they have the possibility of making, would help things alot. I think that a forced limit of a certain number of quests per month would help the players in restraining themselves.

As for Teefal and Zerpa feeling like low-level dunderheads .... well ... that's how everyone feels at first. Don't worry, eventually you will become higher level and will have done more in the world and will be respected by people you don't even know that well. I think that you guys are pretty darn good for new players, and will only get better as you go along.

[Imperious]

With due respect, Zhofe, I think I have to disagree....I'm not suggesting that the RP happen the night of the quest...nor would it have to extremely difficult for players or GMs.

Frankly, I don't see how much work it would be for GMs. Once they got the "lead" characters moving, their work is done until the time of the quest...they would have absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the "quest preparation" as it would be the responsiblity of the lead players.

And players wouldn't have that much work either....posting info in the Inn or event calendar could do the trick.....and everything should be taken care of before the quest begins.

Anyway, just a different view...and I agree with you about the random qeusts, Zhofe...those are always great.

Imperious

[Zhofe]

And how are the "lead characters" chosen then? And what drives them to actually gather others? How can we be sure that they will be responsible? Will they even be able to make it to the actuall quest?

It seems to me that there are alot of problems with setting up quests in this manner, and it would certainly make a huge dent in how many quests were available if this were done all the time. I think the idea is a good one, and an interesting one, but I do not think it is practical for the number of quests and players on the server.

Perhaps if one or two GMs particularly liked the idea though, they could run their quests that way ... well, really, I think that it does boil down to that any solution not on the player side is going to be the decisiion of the GM running the quest. I think it is that much more important then that we limit ourselves.

[Rehevkor]

ZeroVega - 7/13/2005  10:15 AM     You know what, I'm just gonna take sign up's off my quests. When I think about it, it makes sense. Anyone who wants to try and be on the quest, please come. If there's a level/player limit it will be enforced and I will pick at random the characters who will be allowed to play in it. Just show up, and either you'll get it, or you won't. Worst thing that can happen is you wasted 10 minutes running to it.
  (And for those of you who don't have a lot of quest time, or take days off to go on a couple quests, feel free to let GMs know. They'll probably keep a space open for you.)

 I've noticed a lot of quests start in places like Lorindar that require ship passage to reach. At the earlier levels, papers for ship passage aren't cheap, especially when you have to buy 4 for a round trip. It costs Gretchen 800gp for a round trip between Hlint and Lorindar, and that's a huge chunk of change for her. So suppose she shows up for one of your quests starting in Lorindar and doesn't make the cut. She's out of a lot of gold with nothing at all to show for it. Doesn't seem fair to me.

[Imperious]

Hmmmm....in the spirit of discussion, I will answer your questions, Zhofe...let me be clear, I'm not trying to be prickly, or anything, your questions are good.

1)And how are the "lead characters" chosen then?

By the GM. At the beginning, it might make sense for GMs to choose two or three people they know are really sold RPers and know Layo well....Then as quests continiue, others would be chosen

2) What drives them to actually gather others?

For starters, the need to stay alive, since most quests can't be completed by 2 or 3 people. In addition, they wouldn't want to disappoint the Gms or other players involved. I think self-interest plays a role here. If I was chosen, I would want to be sure I got it right so other players and GMs would know i had my act together.  

3) How can we be sure they wiill be responsible?  4) Will they even be able to make it to the actual quest?

Well, see number 2 for most of my response. As I stated earlier, when the GM and lead players discuss this at the beginning, obviously the GM impresses on them how important this and they all make sure they can in fact take lead roles.

Perhaps this approach simply isn't practical...but I am thinking about what Leanthar said about us, the players, taking roles in making this world happen.  To me, this seems a great way to do it and one that keeps us in RP mode the most.

Again, just my thoughts.  I await your rebuttal with much anticipation!  

Imperious

[Zhofe]

In response to number 1. If the GMs choose known "good RPers" then we have a bit of the same problem with the same people being on every quest. We also already have a little bit of this, as I don't believe I have been on many quests where Ozy wasn't sitting in the background. However, I suppose it could work if the GMs spread out their selections, but then again, this is a stress on them.

In response to number 2. Okay, I give you that, I don't want to die either, and I know I cannot stop the great evil mummy hoard by myself.

In response to numbers 3 and 4. The first part I will give you, but what about the second part. What if this role-play is 3 days before the quest, and that player simply cannot be online in 3 days. They may be less apt then to alert other players and thus get a good party started.

Now, let us assume that these things go without a hitch, and the player makes a post in the Wild Surge Inn section of the forums.

What changes between this and the calendar sign up besides possibly a more in-depth post? people will still try to be the first to sign up for such things, and you've simply moved the problem. If however the player only goes to people he/she knows, then the selection is unfair, as there is a large group of players that simply never had a chance to get in at all.

I think it could work well for some quests, but I still think that the calendar is the most practical way for players to know what is going on. I understand it isn't the best device from a role-playing standpoint, but as I have mentioned before, occasionally we must make compromises in our role-playing for the practicality of real-life. If you have a problem with that statement please say so and I will ignore all of your BRBs and AFKs, heh ...

I am not really against the idea of RPing into quests, and I think the situation does sound very fun and alot more realistic, but I don't think it really solves the problem at hand.

[jjkolb]

Imperious, while this may be a good idea and a great way to facilitate RP, the "lead characters" cannot possibly know every player in the database and would have to seek out those he/she is familiar with to join them in the quest.  What you would be left with is loosely the same groups questing together over and over again.

[Imperious]

Excellent ripostes, Zhofe and jjkolb: well done  

I, of course, shall respond! (clearly not much to do at work today!)  

I will only say this: A few days ago, I posted a note in the Wild Surge Inn for some players of approximately levels 5 - 9 to join me on occasion, just to serve as an informal "adventuring party" and to RP...I got a few messages from players I have interacted with on occasion, and a few from players I had never met before ingame. This is from a post that had nothing to do with a quest or anything qutie so execiting, just a chance to get together hopefully fairly regularly and RP. So I think you can achieve a balance and not just always have the same people, especially if the "lead characters" are changed for every quest. I don't imagine for a moment you need to know every player in the database...

What if one might add a few details in a post, for example: "seeking wizard of low (middle, high, etc) training for
so-and-so quest...specialty in..."  So maybe you get four wizards "applying", and the lead characters have to decide who might be best...a test of their leadership and cooperative abilities, who knows?

Plus, there are ways that DMs could bring different groups together....perhapas make the lead characters a Drow and a character who hates Drows...ask them to bring five colleagues...boom...adventure...lots of tension...see what happens...

I think I had another point but can't remember everything you all said...oh, well!

I happily admit that we must at times submit to the limitations real life (although I try to avoid it). but many seem to be in agreement that the current system is...lacking.  Why not put the onus on us and try something new?

[Zhofe]

I simply do not think that the current system is so lacking that it cannot be fixed.

Also, I believe that eliminating the calendar in favor of role-playing and player driven posts would harm some of the more casual players who would simply want to see if a quest was available that they could make.

[teefal]

a comprimise between these two positions is:

1) keep the calendar

2) only only "quest approvers" (lead characters, GMs, etc) to sign people up.

Quests on the calendar would be phrased in terms of a rumor, something to generate conversation in-game.  The task for someone who wished to join the quest would be to ask around town until they found someone who knew something ... and after some talk, that someone could put them on the calendar.  Takes the work off the GM.  Makes for more RP in game.

I think we want to keep the calendar for two other reasons:

1) it quickly shows just how many quests are in layonara, which is good from a marketing standpoint

2) it helps people prevent simultanteous quests, so we don't have 100 people on west server at the same time.

[Zhofe]

Again, the problem is, casual gamers who can't spend hours running around trying to find one person so that they can go on a quest.

[Imperious]

I don't think you have to eliminate the calendar -- I just think you could have most calendar events coordinated by players...like I mentioned, players could post events on the calendar as a way to increase awareness, get people, etc.

In addition, I think this approach could help in bring casual gamers.  Let's say the GM on purpose chooses a "casual player" to be a lead player in a quest...in that way, he/she gets more into the game and may end up meeting other people, etc.

[teefal]

Zhofe - 7/13/2005  3:16 PM

Again, the problem is, casual gamers who can't spend hours running around trying to find one person so that they can go on a quest.

I think a lot of "casual" players are running around anyway, trying to level up, trying to figure out things.  Another way to look at is:  casual gamers can't spend time writing up a bio just so they can join layonara.  

Making people write bios improves the roleplay of the community by weeding out the hack-and-slashers.  Making people *find* a quest by actually talking to people improves the roleplay by weeding out the "i'm here, entertain me" crowd.   If talking to people in-game were a requirement to going on a quest (which makes great sense from a roleplay standpoint), then I think the quality of the roleplay on those quests can't help but improve, since there'd be more motivated people, just as there are because of the bios.

I've been running around town saying, "Hey did you hear what happened last night?"   People eat it up.  It's what's *persistent* about this PW ... that there's more than a "suit up, show up" schedule.

(btw, i know i'm new ... just saying it like i see it now .. my opinions are very likely worth the bits they're displayed with.)

[Etinfall]

hmmm, I tried not to post here but somethings need to be mentioned.

My work schedule changes every 3- 4 weeks. So untill the last week of july I don't really know my august schedule. I can either sign up for a few and try to make them. Or not sign up at all.

I basically have 2 days a week I can play on quests. I love Layonara and before my new position I played alot. Now I try to squeex in a hour a night here and there. Untill the 2 days off. I really don't want to miss quests cause I couldn't get on and find a player before hand.

The calander is great. I would hate to see that go. Please don't remove it.

We need to sit back and think a moment. We have recently had a major influx of players lately. Great job on that team. It will even out, just be patient. Either the Layo team will get more dm's or some players will leave, or both. But you can't just start changing things when we have a week or two with full quests. Vyris ran a quest. Those quest goers came to the forum and started saying how great it was. So more people signed up for the quest. I know a gm doesn't want to have to make a descision of telling others they can't join. And I also know vyris wants everyone to have a blast. I offered to sit this one out so he could concentrate on a smaller party. He said no. He wanted me to have fun too. (Thanks Vy)

So if a party looks too big, grab a few players and go run your own quest. If you had your heart on attending the dm quest then there is nothing wrong with that either. But when the GM rolls for positions in the quest(which I like the idea) then be nice to the GM and get the others that will not be attending and have some fun.


Etin

the reason I like the idea of rolling for spots if there are to  many is because it can be done by the gm. The Layo team in a whole doesn't have to change structure. Orth doesn't have to write that magic code to do something and can concentrate on things that make cole stronger They don't have to remove the great calander they have here.

[teefal]

Just read this in the april world meeting log:

"We have a system called PC Quests.  Bascially NPC's around the world will give out a quest and the quest is to find X PC (yes PC) and discuss Y subject.. when that has been completed you can go back to that npc and get a reward just like a normal quest. it is a normal quest but it involves established pc's that have info to spread"

Heard there are a few of these.  Wouldn't it be neat if this mechanism could be used to promote news of quests?  (Maybe it already is... not sure)

[SquareKnot]

I've been thinking about the various comments that people have posted here about having the players organize more quests on their own. It's a great idea, and really the only practical one. It seems to me that there are only a few significant differences between a PC run and a GM run quest.

One is the GM's ability to control the world and tailor it to the quest. This will never be possible for players. However, it would be possible for a GM to drop certain items or creatures at a specific location at a specific time. This is somewhat like a hugely simplified CDQ. The player puts in a request for a new camp of his nemesis, the much hated trolls, to spring up in the mountains. She or he then leads a group of people to the area to put down this new threat. This wouldn't be much of a burden for the GM's, and as long as no one else came along and cleaned out the trolls, the questing party would be able to have a slightly customized experience. It would break up the "so what will it be tonight, the caves, the crypt, mowing the broken forest?"

The other difference between GM and player led quests is the XP reward. Player led events only have the experience points that can be earned by killing things. This limits the type of adventure and the level and nature of the party. Imagine that your goal was to rescue a hostage from the troll camp. All the approaches involving invisible mages and stealthy rogues will work, and will net exactly 0 XP. The approach of going in with a wave of fighters, axes swinging, will earn 1,000 XP. I think this contributes to the mayhem and bloodlust seen in the recent "Red Light Mayhem" event. Players are conditioned to kill everything on sight as a way to maximize XP. When these players get put into a GM event, the conditioning overtakes the thinking. This is particularly true for new players coming from single-player NWN or other more battle oriented servers. In the PnP days, people were role players. But with NWN, a lot of people are video game players. Tough transition. If the same GM that dropped the troll camp and the hostage could be called on the GM channel after the mission and check that, yes, the hostage was indeed alive and safe, and reward the result and the problem solving and teamwork that went into it, then people would start to think outside the "kill kill kill" box.

Sorry for the analysis. I'm an engineer and can't stop analyzing, even a game. I love Layonara and have improved my roleplaying skills quite a bit during the past few weeks. Thanks to everyone, especially the GM's who have done custom things for me.