What is Law in Regard to the Three Lawful Alignments?

[Script Wrecked]

... otherwise we don't have defined terms and can't really make any headway discussing it.

Okay, so what is law in regard to the three Lawful alignments?

Taking law in its two constituent parts, the condition (crime) and the consequence (punishment).


Consequences

Is Lawful Evil law harsh law? That is, punishment is severe, and out of all proportion to the prescribed crime.

Is Lawful Neutral law impartial law? That is, the prescribed punishment is in proportion to the prescribed crime.

Is Lawful Good law compassionate law? That is, as well as proportional punishment, the severity of the punishment can be further mitigated by the circumstance surrounding the crime.


Conditions

Is Lawful Evil laws the detrimental laws? That is, the prescribed condition to be fulfilled is to the detriment or disadvantage of the individual, but if not complied with, an even more deleterious punishment will be imposed.

Is Lawful Neutral laws the "status quo" laws? All the "thou shalt not cause harm to your fellow being" laws.

Is Lawful Good laws the beneficence laws? Viz, if you are in a disadvantaged position, you are entitled to some prescribed assistance.


Breaking the law down into these two parts creates (3x3) nine "flavours", without even considering  the three alignments and such modifiers as equality before the law.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Dorganath]

The concept of law as a collection of rules, crimes and their punishments...as a standard of conduct for a society is somewhat different from the concept of Lawful as an alignment. I will capitalize the term when I am speaking of alignment issues, for clarity.

The concept of Lawful has to do with an adherence to a personal code of conduct or a methodical, systematic way of conducting oneself. Characters who are Lawful tend to follow such a code, whether it is of personal origin, a matter of training or an aspect of one's faith, pretty closely.  This "code" can take many forms, and is not always what one might consider "noble", such as in the case of Lawful Evil villains, though usually it is honorable...even respectable. A Lawful person is not necessarily lawful, meaning an adherence to established laws, though there is generally a very strong overlap.  Those who are in a position of power and of Lawful Evil alignment might use laws as a tool and expect a strong adherence to them. A Lawful Good individual would also use laws but to a less personal benefit (i.e. "the greater good").

The concept of law is something else entirely.  In this context, laws are a code. I would stop short of labeling laws as Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil, as alignments are about behaviors; laws are just words on paper. It's the application and enforcement of law that becomes influenced by the alignment of the individual.  Those in a position of power will make and require enforcement of laws in a manner more fitting to their personal views.  Take Rael's laws of Prantz as an example. They were established by a Lawful Evil individual (Lord Rael, of course) and are seen by outsiders as "oppressive" and other negatives.  For Rael, they're about the safety and security of the population...and they work.  The citizenry of Prantz benefit from them.  That's...a good thing, right? *winks*

So to me, it's less a matter of whether a given law is "Lawful Good", "Lawful Neutral" or "Lawful Evil" but rather the way those behind the laws are aligned and how they enact and enforce these laws.

[Script Wrecked]

So to me, it's less a matter of whether a given law is "Lawful Good", "Lawful Neutral" or "Lawful Evil" but rather the way those behind the laws are aligned and how they enact and enforce these laws.

How laws are enacted and enforced does determine whether they can be described as LG/LN/LE. Those behind the law will (typically) enact and enforce laws in accordance with their alignment basis.

I am trying to get a consensus on what those qualities associated with the three Lawful alignments are. We would thus have a common understanding and be able to have some sort of common inference for all the unwritten stuff (the lack of common understanding seems to be a major source of contention in the afore mentioned discussion).

We would then be able to move onto the fact that Rofirein is Lawful Neutral (and what that means), and then how we can have Lawful Evil, Lawful Good, and (perhaps worst of all :p) True Neutral Rofireinites.

[cbnicholson]

I think you nailed it, Script Wrecked.

[Dorganath]

I still personally disagree that a law can be considered any alignment.  A law enacted by a LG ruler but later enforced by a LE ruler would not suddenly become LE....and I would say that the law is also not LG. It's the same law, applied and enforced differently by people based on philosophy, but that doesn't make the law any particular alignment in and of itself.  Besides that, alignments are OOC classifications, not IC ones.  ICly, a law may be viewed as just/unjust, fair/unfair, oppressive, restrictive or whatever.  Those heavily affected by a given law may see it as "evil" while others will see it a different way.

Again, my opinion, so take it as it is.

If we're going to talk about the administration and execution of laws, then yeah, we can bring alignment into it, because laws are nothing without people following and enforcing them.

[gilshem ironstone]

EDIT: Removed my example of modern day stoning of adulterers, as it appears that any imbalance in the application of punishment is not due to the law itself.

I will say though that this topic is at least as murky as the thread that spawned it, due to a lack of objective qualities that can be applied to the laws, so coming to consensus is a tough sell.  If I were to take a crack at it, I would say something like:

Good Laws-Benefit the greater good by encouraging compassion and growth.

Neutral Laws-Benefit the greater good by protecting the welfare of the greatest number of people.

Evil Laws-Benefit the greater good by ensuring the mechanisms of power and rulership are administered uninhibited.

I am not sure if those are definitive enough to be consensus building, but it was worth a shot

[davidhoff]

Agreed in the most basic/technical view that laws are just inanimate, ink-on-parchment..they have no feelings, pulse or alignment.  If one believes that evil is only a "state of mind", then obviously we won't be able to convince that person that any law can be evil, because ink-on-parchment doesn't have a heart, soul or brain.

But *clears throat*, I personally think that laws can be "generally" categorized as evil, neutral or good laws.  By generally, I mean what the general concensous would be if you asked 100 people.  For example, people might generally say:

Neutral Law :  Pay taxes
Evil Law:  Kill each first born for glory of the king
Good Law:  Murder is illegal

But, maybe the answer to this question (ie, can laws be classified as good, evil, neutural?) is not really helping us much and might not be the right question to ask.

//excuse me while I rehyjack this thread//

Maybe, the question is: How is a Rofie to know if a particualar law is in line with "Divine Law"?

//ok I'll post this question to original thread as I think its more fitting//

[Script Wrecked]

I still personally disagree that a law can be considered any alignment.  

"All adult elves shall be flogged daily."

Is that not an "evil" law?

A law enacted by a LG ruler but later enforced by a LE ruler would not suddenly become LE....and I would say that the law is also not LG

"People twenty-one years and older are entitled to vote."

I would say that is a "good" law. That does not change once the LE ruler assumes power.

It's the same law, applied and enforced differently by people based on philosophy, but that doesn't make the law any particular alignment in and of itself.

All laws are created to realise some intent. Intent can be characterised in degrees of good and evil. As an outcome of that intent, the law has that characterisation.

Besides that, alignments are OOC classifications, not IC ones.  ICly, a law may be viewed as just/unjust, fair/unfair, oppressive, restrictive or whatever.  Those heavily affected by a given law may see it as "evil" while others will see it a different way.

The OOC alignment framework is used to determine how our characters behave IC. I would say it is applicable to draw comparisons to that framework when considering other things that affect how our characters behave.

Again, my opinion, so take it as it is.

If we're going to talk about the administration and execution of laws, then yeah, we can bring alignment into it, because laws are nothing without people following and enforcing them.

That too.

[cbnicholson]

How is a Rofie to know if a particualar law is in line with "Divine Law"?

 
 We don't.  Assumptions and guesses have to be made at this point.  Clues ferrited out of various discussions and so forth.  It's all very confusing.O.o

[Dorganath]

"All adult elves shall be flogged daily."

Is that not an "evil" law?

I am intentionally separating concepts of "good" and "evil", which are IC perceptions, and the alignment definitions of "Good" and "Evil", which are OOC frameworks. You may think it's splitting hairs, and that's fine, but I believe it's an important distinction to make.

It might also be helpful to stick to non-extreme examples in order to make headway into what you are trying to determine through this thread...but since you used this one.

Yes, many people would consider the law to be "evil" at the very least.  They might also consider the person/council that enacted the law to be "evil".  Then again, evil is in the eye of the beholder.  Someone from Voltrex would surely find this law to be "evil", but someone from the Sun kingdom may well consider such a law "necessary"...which would put it more in the "neutral" category.

"People twenty-one years and older are entitled to vote."

I would say that is a "good" law. That does not change once the LE ruler assumes power.

Nope, it wouldn't, unless the LE ruler systematically threw out votes placed by anyone under 25.  It's not so much that that the law changes but how it is enforced or applied. I've said as much.

Take a different example. Suppose there's a law of curfew of 9pm and that the law gives the town guard the right to enforce curfew. LG enforcement might be nothing more than telling people to go home.  LE enforcement might include beat-downs and dragging people off to jail. Same law, different enforcement.  Under LG enforcement, the law might be seen as "good" for keeping undesirable elements off the streets at night, whereas under LE enforcement it might be seen as brutal and "evil".

All laws are created to realise some intent. Intent can be characterised in degrees of good and evil. As an outcome of that intent, the law has that characterisation.

True enough, but still we're talking about the good/evil feeling about a law rather than giving it an alignment, which I still maintain does not really apply. Again, it comes down to perception, intent as you pointed out and enforcement.

Let's take another example: the prohibition of magic in Prantz.  To Lucindites, this is an "evil" law.  To the other residents of Prantz, it's not so bad, if it keeps untrustworthy magic users out of the city. I have to wonder if Voraxians secretly cheer this law or at least think, "Aye...the Rael dog go' tha' one roight, at leas'." Rael and his supporters surely sees it as a "good" thing for reasons of security and control.

So what label does that law really deserve? It's suddenly not so simple to stamp a law as "good" or "evil" or even "neutral" and then draw some sort of conclusion on how a Rofireinite should interpret it.

The OOC alignment framework is used to determine how our characters behave IC. I would say it is applicable to draw comparisons to that framework when considering other things that affect how our characters behave.

I agree...for our characters. I disagree with sticking alignment labels onto things like laws, which are open to some interpretation.

Again, my opinion, but it seems to me that the better metric for a Rofireinite to look at whether a law is just, fair and/or honorable.  A LG Rofireinite would likely not find the law about flogging elves daily to be any of those things.  As such, it is likely he would not enforce such a thing, as there is no justice in it...no honor. It is a law that serves no other purpose but to cause violence against elves.

How is a Rofie to know if a particualar law is in line with "Divine Law"?

Great question, and that's somewhat part of faith. Yes, I know we don't have Divine Law spelled out....and I kind of hope we don't. I personally feel like Divine Law as people would understand it has been interpreted from Rofirein's original words on the matter. As with any "scripture," especially those that may be translated, it is interpreted and applied in various ways. Same words, subtle but important differences in meaning. Any codification of Divine Law that we might have would be the work of people interpreting what was given by Rofirein many centuries ago. I could see it changing over time as well, possibly through prayer and reflection by the wisest among Rofirein's clergy.

Also, I'm sure many of you have (or at least I hope you have) read this page already:  LORE: Law of Layonara. If not, please do so.

I realize that it does not even come close to spelling out Divine Law, but it actually speaks about the Divine Court somewhat heavily, which is less a list of laws handed down by Rofirein but a process by which one would enforce the laws. It also outlines several "universal" crimes, which I have always taken to understand were established based upon Rofirein's principles and are those things generally considered to be detrimental to a stable society.  It talks about the roles of Rofireinites in the legal process and further underscores the idea that laws and their enforcements vary from realm to realm...and even town to town in some cases.

Also note that at the end there's a section on good and evil, which echoes a lot of what I've been saying in this thread.

And yes, I hear the request by players of Rofireinites for some order or consistency to what should be enforced and how.  I think perhaps the better perspective to take is to ask how one would uphold the principles of justice and honor and the Divine Court where ever a Rofireinite is asked to serve.

In my opinion the decision process goes something like this:
* Is there an applicable law at work (which will be geographically varied)?
* If yes, is it a just law or will justice be served by enforcing it to its fullest extent? If no, then what are the other options.
* If no law exists, what would be the right, just and/or honorable thing to do according to Rofirein's principles and dogma?

I'm sure this is incomplete, but it would be my starting point if I had a Rofireinite character.

I realize this may not help the problem of the "mess" created by every Rofireinite doing things differently.  I do understand the logic behind saying that's an ironic creation of chaos.  I think though that even in the varied interpretations from person to person, there should be at least a 90% overlap, even between a Lawful Good and a Lawful Evil Rofireinite.

One last thought about whether a law is just or not.  Again, my opinion at work here, but...

• A Good-aligned Rofireinite may likely see just laws as "good"
• A Neutral-aligned Rofireinite may likely see just laws as "just" and exactly as they should be
• An Evil-aligned Rofireinite may likely see just laws as a means to an end.

Flipping it over...

• A Good-aligned Rofireinite may likely see unjust laws as "bad"
• A Neutral-aligned Rofireinite may likely see unjust laws as "unjust" and quite possibly counter to Rofirein's dogma
• An Evil-aligned Rofireinite may likely see unjust laws as a means to an end, though may never admit as much.

Your mileage may vary.

[davidhoff]

Woops, just lost my whole reply again for not cleaing it...well here's the nuts bolts:

From the Laws of Layonara:
In lands where the definitions of good and evil differ from what is thought of as the norm, the law can -- and often does -- become complicated.

Found this interesting because it implies there is a "norm" about laws being G, N, or E.

From the Laws of Layonara:
Other crimes, punishable by imprisonment for less than a year, forced labor, flogging, or community service:

*Worshipping deities recognized to be evil

So, Divine Law says worshiping evil deities is against Divine Law...well Sulterio is evil...So, every Deep Dwarf in Prantz, Rael included, is constantly violating Divine Law.  I know the Rofireinites are trying to make inroads in Prantz, but are they really having any success at that?  Or are they just enforcing Rael's laws?  Maybe their presense there, as a Stamp of Approval for Rael, is doing more harm to them as the world sees them as puppets with no back-bone.  Maybe the damage to their reputation, power, dignity, honor and virtue is too great a cost.

There are enough sections in LORE that point to Rofirein and his Divine Law as being "goodish".  I think when a Rofie looks at a law to see if its in compliance with Divine Law, he's gota ask is this law a good law as determined by good people.?  The L/E Rofie may still exist and will have to ask the same question, but his views or enforcment may vary within "limits".  What those "limits" are I guess depends on the character and what he thinks he can get away with...I'm not really sure.

[Dorganath]

Found this interesting because it implies there is a "norm" about laws being G, N, or E.

Mostly this "norm" refers to what most of us or most of the generally "good" kingdoms would consider as the normal laws.  These are reflected in the Law of Layonara page on LORE that I linked above.  The attitudes of Co'rys, for example, have a much more permissive view if what might be considered "good".

So, Divine Law says worshiping evil deities is against Divine Law...

What's on that page is not Divine Law.  Do not confuse the two. I'm not saying you're wrong, but neither can I confirm you are right. It's a tricky assumption that can lead to incorrect conclusions.

well Sulterio is evil...So, every Deep Dwarf in Prantz, Rael included, is constantly violating Divine Law.

Is Sulterio known to be "evil" in an IC sense? We know his alignment is Evil, but do our characters and do the prevailing opinions of the Powers That Be believe this?

Besides this, those are the generally accepted laws, but they are not universal to all kingdoms and realms. In the Kindom of Rael, it is, in fact, not illegal to worship Sulterio. In Prantz, it is the only option. Elsewhere it is less regulated, but it is surely not illegal. That is Rael's law. No one is in violation of anything.  The grand irony here is that Prantz is of course the place where the generally accepted laws of Layonara were established back when the Diamoniar line ruled the entire world.

I know the Rofireinites are trying to make inroads in Prantz, but are they really having any success at that?  Or are they just enforcing Rael's laws?  Maybe their presense there, as a Stamp of Approval for Rael, is doing more harm to them as the world sees them as puppets with no back-bone.  Maybe the damage to their reputation, power, dignity, honor and virtue is too great a cost.

Rofireinites are allowed to stay in Prantz to give legitimacy to Rael's courts. It's a calculated move by Rael, and a clever one.  Rofireinites in Prantz are not enforcers.  They oversee the legal process to try and make sure it is fair, but enforcement and application of the law is handled by Rael-appointed judges, guard, police, executioners, jailers and the like. It's not the best situation from a Rofireinite angle, but from their perspective, it's better than the alternative. It's seen as mutually beneficial, though Rael is coming out a bit better in the deal. I believe it is the Rofireinite hope that their presence and influence will eventually temper and bring the Raelian system of justice more in line with Divine Law. Here's hoping!

There are enough sections in LORE that point to Rofirein and his Divine Law as being "goodish".

Yes, to an extent. I suppose if you believe that a stable, non-chaotic society is a good thing or not. Generally, such things are considered beneficial to the vast majority, and are therefore a "good thing."  As another touch of irony, Rael's rulership over Prantz and the Rael Kingdom has been seen by its residents as a good thing. His people are safe, fed and all the other "good" things that people tend to need out of life. All they traded was a little bit of freedom. Is that so terrible?

[davidhoff]

Dorg regarding Laws of Layonara:
What's on that page is not Divine Law. Do not confuse the two.

Hmm, but isn't that in conflict with your earlier statment?

Dorg regarding Laws of Layonara:
It also outlines several "universal" crimes, which I have always taken to understand were established based upon Rofirein's principles and are those things generally considered to be detrimental to a stable society.

Isn't worshiping an evil deity a "universal crime" based on Rofirein's principles?  And if it is a universal crime, then how can that not be the same or at least in-line-with Divine Law?

Are not the Laws of Layonara the same Charter of Laws created at the Congregation of the Principium hosted by Emperor Ralkin in Prantz?  Are not the Laws of Layonara then laws created by good kingdoms for good governance?

If a Rofireinite can not use the Laws of Layonara as a basic guide to what Divine Law is, then they are in-effect stuck without any known laws to work with.  How do you play a character that follows the God of Law, when you don't know what the law is?

Rofie:  "Hey there, yes you, stop what you are doing!
Criminal:  "Why, what am I doing wrong?"
Rofie:  "I can't really say, because I have no law, but, um, you better just stop it"
Criminal:  *waves him off and continues on doing his thing*

From Dorg:
Is Sulterio known to be "evil" in an IC sense? We know his alignment is Evil, but do our characters and do the prevailing opinions of the Powers That Be believe this?

Come on, really?  That's a pretty slippery slope.  So, now our characters can't even know which deities are evil?  Would not Divine Law (if we had it written) at bare minimum spell out which of the 28 deities are considered evil by Rofirein?  Would not a Rofireinite know which deities are considered evil from Rofirein's perspective?  Isn't that what counts?

From Dorg:
Besides this, those are the generally accepted laws, but they are not universal to all kingdoms and realms. In the Kindom of Rael, it is, in fact, not illegal to worship Sulterio.

Well, I know the "Laws of Layonara" are not used throughout Layo, especially not in Prantz.  My argument was that if it is criminal and against Divine Law to worship a evil deity, then Rael is in violation of Divine Law.  If you're saying that worshiping an evil deity is not a universal crime and not against Divine Law, then I stand corrected.

[Dorganath]

Before I respond, I just want to state for complete clarity: I don't know what the Divine Law is. As far as I know, it has not been written. All we have is general concepts and the old (but no longer universal) Law of Layonara, which was based upon the understanding and interpretation of Divine Law as made by imperfect immortal beings.

Hmm, but isn't that in conflict with your earlier statment?

Nope. Re-quoting myself and explaining...

It also outlines several "universal" crimes, which I have always taken  to understand were established based upon Rofirein's principles and are  those things generally considered to be detrimental to a stable society.                 

(emphasis mine)

(note also that "universal" is quoted suggesting that it may not really be universal in application)

When I think of Divine Law, I think of the direct word of Rofirein. We don't know what is in it. Maybe Ed does...maybe Leanthar does. I don't.  As far as I know it has not been written in any complete way. Personally, I don't think it should be written precisely.  That would be the direct words of a deity. It's far more interesting that mortals have translated and interpreted Rofirein's words from very long ago and have constantly re-interpreted them and applied them to the lives of mortals.

From the principles given in Divine Law (or what was interpreted from Divine Law) a set of laws were created that line up with these concepts and with Rofirein's dogma.  For convenience:

You are a paragon of virtue and honor.  Dedicate your life to justice, honor, and the pursuit of law and order.  Hold the law above all else at any cost, even if this means bringing  loved ones or friends to justice. Without the order of law, chaos would  reign and the world would descend into dark times where Pyrtechon  would thrive. Extend honor to all--even your foes. Aid others whenever  and wherever possible as long as it is in accordance with the law and  does not make way for acts of evil. The common people are the strongest  force in bringing order and prosperity to all. We must protect them.

So, reading this (which is again an interpretation by mortals), we have concepts of law and order, honor, justice, standing against chaos and acts of evil.  From these concepts, mortals crafted a set of laws.  Murder is evil.  Widespread murder sews chaos. Murder is therefore made illegal.  Rape, burglary, arson...the list goes on.

So my assertion is that the laws of Layonara, as written on LORE, are derivative of the concepts in Divine Law, but they should not be considered to be Divine Law.  And in this context....

Isn't worshiping an evil deity a "universal crime" based on Rofirein's principles?  And if it is a universal crime, then how can that not be the same or at least in-line-with Divine Law?

Again, no. I do not think that Rofirein said specifically "Thou shalt not worship evil deities...here's a list. They're all bad. Stay away." In fact, I do not believe he said anything even remotely along those lines. I'd even be surprised if he said "Murder is a crime. Make it illegal." as part of any Divine Law he passed down ages ago, though I suppose that's more likely than specifying which deities are illegal to worship. I bet, if he did that, he'd provoke a war in the Heavens, and that's not good for anyone.  Again, it was mortals who crafted these laws, finding deities known to be evil as detrimental to order.

Are not the Laws of Layonara the same Charter of Laws created at the Congregation of the Principium hosted by Emperor Ralkin in Prantz?  Are not the Laws of Layonara then laws created by good kingdoms for good governance?

They are, as I understand it, but they were not just a copy of Divine Law. They were created using the concepts of Divine Law and the Divine Court.

If a Rofireinite can not use the Laws of Layonara as a basic guide to what Divine Law is, then they are in-effect stuck without any known laws to work with.  How do you play a character that follows the God of Law, when you don't know what the law is?

I never said that.  A Rofireinite can use the common laws of Layonara to serve as a basic guide to Divine Law, but again, it is my opinion that Divine Law isn't so specific as what is and isn't a crime except in a general sense.  I am saying that Rofirein did not write the laws of Layonara.  His clergy had a strong hand in doing so, but they do not have a hotline directly to the big dragon himself.  They are relying on dogma, interpretation and

Rofie:  "Hey there, yes you, stop what you are doing!
Criminal:  "Why, what am I doing wrong?"
Rofie:  "I can't really say, because I have no law, but, um, you better just stop it"
Criminal:  *waves him off and continues on doing his thing*

Read above. And let's not stray into the ridiculous. It detracts from a rational and otherwise thoughtful discussion.

Come on, really?  That's a pretty slippery slope.  So, now our characters can't even know which deities are evil?  Would not Divine Law (if we had it written) at bare minimum spell out which of the 28 deities are considered evil by Rofirein?  Would not a Rofireinite know which deities are considered evil from Rofirein's perspective?  Isn't that what counts?

You're falling back on alignment, and that is not something that's not known to our characters. Evil, as I've stated elsewhere, is in the eye of the beholder.

Sulterio, according to the write-up, is: Belligerent, Ordered, Technological, Vengeful

Beligerent and Vengeful aren't all that great, but Ordered...well maybe Rofirein can respect the fact that he's ordered.  It's one of Rofirein's aspects afterall.  Oh, and Rofirein is merely unfriendly to Sulterio, and Sulterio is, as you've noted, Lawful Evil, only one step away from Rofirein.

Here's another deity who is Arrogant, Chaotic, Destructive, Natural. Sounds kind of "evil" no.  Definitely bad for society and stability, I'd say.  Who is it? Mist, of course.  But Mist is not of Evil alignment.  She's Chaotic Neutral, which is the complete opposite of Rofirein. Oh, and Rofirein considers her an enemy...but she's still not "evil", is she?

Thus far, it is not illegal to worship Mist according to the Law of Layonara, so by that metric, she must not be. Yet Rofirein dislikes her more than Sulterio.  Interesting, don't you think?

So you see, I have a real issue with the assertion that we can go by the alignment of a deity, which our characters would not know about, and then say "Yep, the whole city of Prantz is in violation of Divine Law."

That, to me, is a big stretch.

Well, I know the "Laws of Layonara" are not used throughout Layo, especially not in Prantz.  My argument was that if it is criminal and against Divine Law to worship a evil deity, then Rael is in violation of Divine Law.  If you're saying that worshiping an evil deity is not a universal crime and not against Divine Law, then I stand corrected.

See above.

The Laws of Layonara are laws of mortals. They're derived from the concepts of Divine Law, but they are ultimately written, enacted and enforced by mortals. They are the basis for most, if not all, kingdoms believed to be "good" on Layonara, yet each kingdom, and in some cases, each town, has its own set of laws.  Rofireinites do not have any overriding authority to enforce Divine Law to supersede the established law of a kingdom.

Anyway, I hope that helps you understand my perspective on this.  I'm not saying it's completely right either, but I do believe you, and some others, may be getting too hung up on Divine Law, at least with the idea that Divine Law is actually a written and precise set of laws written in Rofirein's own exact words. For what it's worth, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but you and I are not going to come to that answer here.  Someone else will need to shed some light on it.

[davidhoff]

Thanks for taking the time to explain Dorg...sorry when I strayed into the ridiculous...it seemed cute at the time.  I understand much better now and I hope others do to.  Obviously, I probably still have some questions or issues, but nothings perfect.  But I do think its workable and will open some doors for some good ingame RP.