A few points of criticism and a last farewell

[Harloff]

After long hard considerations I have decided to speak my mind about Layo, the main reason it has taken so long for me to decide to do so is that, I am counting on being banned for doing so. But now I have gotten to a point were that simply doesn’t matter anymore, I just think there is to many problems with the server and it bugs me greatly, so I have decided to try to alter things one last time or leave anyway.

But because, I am counting on being banned I will start out by saying goodbye to all my friends on the server mainly the old orc team (including Harlas of course) and Raven. And I have saved a quote from LOTR for this moment, it sums everything up pretty nicely I think:

"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." --Bilbo Baggins

But back to my view on Layo, as I see it the main problem with Layo is that it is so poorly managed, which is clearly seen in the updates. For as long as I have been here there have been bugs on balancing and problems with some of the prestige classes, e.g. Spellswords with useless feats and Skalds with illogical feats that are equally useless (15 Fort. save or die for a level 10 feat which you can get on level 18 or so “the fearsome but utterly useless broken wail” *shakes his head* “what the hell is that supposed to kill”). But instead of fixing such problems we have gotten flowers, scrolls we can write on, horses to ride, and last but not least the “farming craft” (which is implemented on a server that is scheduled to be shut down, my guess is that it will never really work before the server no longer exists). I know that these things are all nice RP stuff and it is of course a comfort when you have an absolutely useless class that you can walk around in Hlint and give people flowers, at least that I something to do when you are unable to adventure. And yes I know this is an RP server *puts flowers in his hear on jumps around on a meadow looking joyous* but I for one don’t belong the group of players that think that is enough.

Balance… Well… D&D is by its nature unbalanced and that is fine, and by making a low magic world you get even more unbalance, BUT to make the unbalance complete specific summons for all gods were introduced making some of the priest much more powerful than others and making some of the spell casters more powerful than they were in NWN. If I remember correctly druids get a summon on level 16 that has a challenge rating of level 23 or something similar.

Furthermore, from day one I have found the strange secrecy on the server ridicules, the secrecy level would make organizations like CIA, NSA etc. jealous. But the truly amazing thing is that there is absolutely no reason why everything is so secret, I know that many discussions about the plot, players breaking rules these sorts of things have to be secret. BUT why is it a secret what will happen to the characters in the transition to NWN. (I assume that the team knows what is going to happen but seeing what takes place on this server in general makes me think that this might not be true after all). Why can’t we get the info we need in order to RP, like the history about Krashin that is secret according to recent posts, or why can’t we get info on the relations between the gods I simply cannot see any good reason for such information to be secret. Unless of course someone somewhere feels important having information that no-one else has... AND why doesn’t the team ever ask the players what they would like to have implemented, why this “we know what is best for you attitude”? None on the team are my parents and they don’t even know me so how could they possibly know what I want? As a player you are constantly asked to donate for the server but why should a player donate? The players don’t have any influence, they aren’t even allowed to say “I think this is an awful idea!” the only thing allowed is to march at the same pace as the team wants you to. And if you get out of step and state you’re mind you can be quite sure to have a DM will give you a very impolite answer, or you might get lucky and see ORTH’s drama queen act. “When I read something like this I just don’t know why I spend so many hours on this project…” I really like that one, always gets the tears in my eyes, quite Shakespearean actually…

Rules… yeah well there are more rules on Layo than the team will ever be able to control. But one of the worst rules is: These rules don’t apply to all players… for instance if you are a GM everything goes, e.g. Storm and Pan were allowed to break the rule about not having a noble/famous bloodline. I have never heard of a GM being denied to become epic. And it is a well know fact among the players that Pan has run “level-up exp” quest especially designed for Storms Eldárwen Hilliaraname. This just isn’t good enough GM’s should be above these sorts of things and shouldn’t take advantage of their position. On a side note Pan it doesn’t make you cool that your character has a high hide check, it just shows that that hide is one of the few skills that you can get many skill points from equipment. Oh and it doesn’t make you cool to write everything in orange either any [orange]idiot[/orange] can do that, in the beginning I found it quite intimidating but my current theory is that you are compensating for something…  

In conclusion I will use a quote told to me by a theatre instructor who had been working at a harbour in his youth.

“When a fish smells, it is from its head, and if you want to remove the smell you cut of its head!”

Not that I want L removed but the root for all these problems lies in the GM team and the only way to change things is to make some changes there.

*Picks up his axe and walks out the door, in the doorway he looks back over his shoulder with a sad look on his face saying a last goodbye to world he used to love. He pulls himself together and walks out into the world trying to find a server that respects the players and appreciate their opinions.*

Harloff

[Guardian 452]

Did you by chance try and talk to Leanthar about any of your issues? Or did you just let these things that you think are facts boil in your gut for months then burst out with this post?

As far as players not having any influence.... Why did we stop getting death tokens? How did the Great Library come to be found and maintained? How did Folians Temple come to Dregar? LEILON ARMS anyone!?  Just a few I can think of off the top of my head.



"If it aint fun.... why play?"

Thats been a saying of mine for well over 2 years when I read these types of posts and rants.


I hope you find a world that fits what type of gaming you seek.  


G-452

[Ar7]

Haven't posted anything for some weeks around here, but this post is serious and I feel like answering. I agree with you on some of the points, quite a few actually, but I don't want to start going through each piece by piece and starting a fiery debate that will probably get a lot of people angry and banned. But looking at your post, there isn't anything that should get you banned.

If anybody is interested, L, the GM team or the entire forum, then I can write a long and argumented post with constructive critisism about what I think should be changed. I have played here for quite a few years to be able to judge and feel that Layonara has taken a few wrong turns over the past years. This is in no way meant as flaming, but rather as an attempt to try and improve the server. I know some people who agree with me and I think the root of the problem lies in the size of Layonara.

Please, do not lock this post even if things get heated, such actions usually take the heat behind the scenes and turn it into gossib etc.

I will be following this post with interest and hope.

[Pankoki]

A few months ago I would have been inclined to reply to this post with the same tone that you used. However I realize that in reality it is not worth the stress to go all haywire because someone holds an ill-conceived perspective on you.  Funnily I never had, nor have right now, a bad view on you and all the people you call friends, a lot of misunderstood things sure, but never one leading to outright spite as you clearly have in this post.  So you have made your final stance. Unfortunately you ruined any effort in making a difference with your final stance due to the tone and the words you used. It seems to me that if you truly want to make a difference and if you really care about the place, you would not smear your name as you have done so today. Regardless of that however, you have made your final stance and since I know this thread will soon be overwhelmed by a long discussion that will truly not go anywhere (Or outright frozen for bad use of language), I will take these few minutes to reply to it while it is fresh.  Layonara has always been growing in one way or another. It has flaws in its gameplay, just as every other game out there and it will never truly be perfect. That's just a fact. Not every class/monster/feat/skill/area/item will be perfectly balanced and that is just the start as far as gameplay goes. But in the end if you take the original NWN game and compare it to Layonara you will soon realize the titanic change from one place to the other. It is a different game. Somethings however will not be perfect, and to this day I am not sure where we have claimed so.  Sure, we have worked on tons of RP-oriented implementations, simply because in the overall picture of things we need to try and implement things for everyone at all levels. So if two Prestige Classes (Not main classes, prestige ones) have some flaws that make them weaker than others, in the end I don't take that as the descriptor of our development, instead I see that there are 9 other customized prestige classes that do work and are fun (I'm not counting the two unholy ones since those are mostly for NPC usage). And I see that number and realize that 9 over 2 that aren't working is a very good ratio. And that goes for everything else. The world has tons of good things and a few that are broken. We strive to fix them, and do so at a pace that the development team can, but in the end, it doesn't make Layonara an unplayable place.  On the summons issue, I've always found that topic somewhat between a pain and a joke. Surely, I can tell you the same thing that I've told every single person that has addressed me for a summon problem and it is the simple fact that they all have their uses, some summons are better at somethings than others, and right the same way around. The archers do decent damage, but if they get close they get mauled, the golems have good spell protections but don't deal as much damage and have an average AB, the demons have their immunities and a slew of spell-like abilities with a decent punch, and the elementals have a decent average overall, good HP, average punch and a list of immunities. In the end however that isn't the point, the point is that if something seems off then people need to report it, so far the only discussion about summons that has been approached has been regarding the level 9 Gate spell, and that clearly isn't a standard summon. So in the end it always falls back to the same. 90% of it works, and the 10% that doesn't is a small flaw that doesn't break the world.  Regarding your comment on secrets in Layonara. Well I must say that this goes for every organization in the world, somethings are told to everyone and some others are on a need to know basis, and some others are simply kept by the singular (Or group of individuals) that manage or administer the entity. That's just reality and if you have been told otherwise then I'm afraid its time to review that perspective because it isn't realistic. On the NWN transfer there is no secret, the team has read and heard just about every opinion and poll that is out there, every member in the team has opinions of their own as well as far as those matters are concerned, but in the end no decision has been made by Leanthar. Of all people, he has worked on this world the most and the longest and since it will eventually fall on his shoulders to make such a call, I am sure that it isn't something easy for him to do. In the one hand you have this magnificent opportunity to fix all the problems that Layonara has and start anew, and in the other you have this faithful community of people who have invested in their characters and their stories for over 2 years now. I am sure it isn't an easy call to make and really do not envy the man.  There is this huge belief that the GM forums have some sort of spying system established where we conform in some Illuminati form of committee to decide the fate of Layonara. Well that isn't true. We have posts about our quests and the different GM-oriented notices or procedures established for them, and we have a forum were we collect all reports about players breaking the rules. All of these are obvious administration things that not every person in the server needs to see. In the general forums we have things for input from players and we read those ideas and they are implemented if they have enough following or if they go with the spirit of the world. But in the end, can you imagine how much would get done if we sent for player approval every single feature to be implemented? If you have a realistic view on development, then you will know that the answer to that is, nothing. That's just a simple reality.  The comment on orth was completely unnecessary, but that seems moot, since so were many other ill-concieved remarks in your post. In the end however, he is one of the people that puts the most work in Layonara, and just as anyone would defend their own creations, he does the same when he sees they are being attacked from unfair angles.  And now to me. Well, frankly I'm used to every so often have to deal with this undying belief that all my things are ran for specific players. But since it once again has been brought up, it is once again that I clear the fog up, or at least try. Before I get into the core of it, I would like for you to consider something simple. Every GM has been around for a long time. Normally meaning that their involvement in the world already has been impacting and thus the grounds to deny a GM-Epic application are hard to find, they already put a lot of work into the world, it seems natural that their characters have as well. There's no favouritism involved there, that is a simply matter of one thing adding to the other. There are many people in this community that misconstrue proper credit from favouritism. Is rewarding someone that has put so much work into something, a bad thing? I would like to think not. Regardless however, we have rules in place for all epic approvals and every single DM that has been approved for them has met these rules. Again, credit-reward.  The whole Twins drama got blown out of proportions. Leanthar himself handled the applications and spent a good amount of time getting input from not just the team, but the players too. Why? Was it because storm and I were DMs and "deserved" it? Nope. It was a simple matter of the work put into their stories and a set of conditions placed under their playing. Conditions that storm and I gladly abide by simply because we did not want to play them to be cool and claim whatever claim people may think we would do. Instead because we wanted to have fun with characters that meant something to us. In the end however, there has been plenty of times before where an application has been considered special and has undergone a review further than the standard. Simply because of again, the whole credit-reward thing.   Rumours are hard to correct, particularly when ever since they have started they have been mostly "Oh someone told me this..." And it gets blown up out of proportion. Have you ever been to one of my quests? Nope, you have not. 99% of the rumours built on the whole pan-storm issue has been originated from places of spite unfounded or a rumour mill that has gone for miles. In reality it all comes down to involvement. If someone takes the effort of becoming involved in a quest of mine, they are going to get rewarded, that is just a simple reality, it doesn't matter who you are. Storm's character has done thing in the world (Just as every epic out there) that have left a mark and if it applies then he uses them in a quest. I wish I could find the source of all these rumours and have an honest person to person conversation with this individual (or group of individuals), but yet to date the only person that has approached me with a question as to why something happened was a good friend of mine. Though I suppose that makes sense, since only the people that care for your opinion bother clarifying things before making claims. Regardless of what it maybe, I invite anyone that has ever felt or heard such a thing to contact me and we can talk in any form that is deemed best. Simply because all these rumours have little foundation and believe me, I want them clarified more than anyone on this server.  It seems to me you have some rather pent up rage towards me. Not sure I've done anything to you to have you berate my signature or my way of posting. I'm proud of my character, is that wrong or bad? I hope not. I've worked hard on her and it is a matter of personal pride what she can do, would you rather me put her dexterity up? Or her tumble? Or perhaps her crit record which many people have posted for their characterrs as well? Ah well... not the point, Triba is something I'm proud of and there's little that can be said to not make that true. And you are right, I am compensating from something, mostly the fact that the normal forum background hurts my eyes and the orange colour is better on them. So unless you have a cure for that sort of ailment, I'm not sure what can be done. Though thank you for that piece of constructive criticism.  In the end I think you have a lot of issues that need addressed before addressing others yourself. And perhaps you need to check your nose before smelling the fish.

[Nyralotep]

My $.02 on this.  If you have any sort of these issues I have found that it is best to talk to Leanthar.  I have done so in the past and not made any of it public on multiple issues.  And Leanthar has been more than helpful when he can and honest with me in all dealings which I respect.

I was a GM for a short time and I can say that there is not much secret that Pan hasn't said above.  If anything GM's have less time from doing quests and playing a character.  If any of them had done these types of quest I can assure you the other GM's would have seen it and it would have been stopped right then and there.

And I have been here for quite some time as well and the one thing that impresses me is that these people do all thesae things for FREE.  No one gets paids and Leanthar pays more than he should for Layo but he loves the world that much so have respect for that and approach him first.

For the Orth comment, he has a character that is popular because he was able to take the time and build a very good background.  Because of this he gets tons of tells and is approached about more things that he should be....I know I was guilty of that once a long time ago.  But I can also say that Orth has done many good things for the community and the server.  He is a great person I learned a great deal from in my early days that I dont get to see enough of anymore.

Anyway Leanthar and the team has created a great community....sure it has some flaws but what doesn't?  WoW still has tons of problems and you have to pay to get griefed there.....

But I wish you peace and wish you the best, don't really know you and hope you will try and work with the team to see if things can get fixed, but if you can't then I hope you find someplace good to be a part of.

[Talan Va'lash]

All I want to say is that none of the layonara staff or GMs or builders or dev's whatever you want to call them are paid to do what they do for Layonara.

[Acacea]

I don't have personally have any problems voicing criticisim. It makes things better, especially when it is talked about person-to-person and not flame-to-public. However, I do get a little tired of the "out the door explosion" kind of attitude that is popular no matter what community you're talking about, where you save up all of the hate and arguments to bash a place you know you're not coming back to. It's clearly not because you want the world to be better--you're leaving it, and saved it all for when you do. It's the last kick in the nads before counting on a counter-kick to get you out the door, and that's a little irritating. Like the itch you can't scratch because your leg is in a cast or something...you can't correct the vague "people say" outlook, especially when it's said on the way out. I have friends that share this strange idea of "that's really going to help," but would rather not jump on the bandwagon before knowing exactly what is going on. I don't though, think that it is bannable.  

• I think that even things like this are clear signs of real problems, and that saying "that's nice, see you later," does not in any way help them, nor does the constant reminder that people do this for free. Yes, they do, yes, most of us appreciate that. But if things can be improved with clarification, please do so.  
• I can't really comment on the balance of classes I have not played, but do wonder why, if the summons are so largely broken (a statement that I don't agree with), there is not more discussion of it on the forums? I've seen other things get balanced with "a tiny push in this direction... too far, push that way... too far again," though, which seems to get responded to with angry people no matter what is done with it, whose suggestions are mostly (not always) biased towards pushing it further in the direction that would most benefit them in some (maybe) unconscious manner.    
  
• There are things I do feel need working on, some of which will not be touched for the moment, and others that are put way down on the priority list. Since I'm not the one doing them, I would rather that the things they are working on get completed, instead of leaving a trail of half-finished ones as they jump from project to project depending on what the loudest people think is the most important at the time. Complete projects tend to be a lot more beneficial than than constantly changing ideas, however cool the ideas are. Unfortunately.      
• Some things are better kept 'secret' and make no sense to be widely available. I'm not sure why things like the Krashin story are not available for the public at the moment; I'd prefer people had a lot to work with for backgrounds. It also seems like it would ease some of the frustration of contribution. If say, Karana decided that there simply wasn't enough background available and decided to write some up, the answer is that it is already done, you just can't use it... which is frustrating. I assume it's just hard to find the time for whatever needs to be done to include it. Maybe a better process should be introduced for how things become available and when.      
  
• Heh... not sure why you would taint the rest of your arguments with something as silly as flaming the color of someone's font. It kind of brings all your other points to that level, making them equally as unimportant. Who cares what someone's favorite font and color is, honestly? It drives home the idea that this is not anything that is asking to be solved, just a hit-and-run.      
• Something that is almost always forgotten when reacting, is that on any good quest, player initiative is rewarded. If you have resources available to you, then you are welcome to use them within the context of the setting. Please, for future questers, if you see someone taking initiative and you don't like it, do it yourself instead of watching someone else and then whispering later.  If Harlas ran an excruciatingly long and involved series which of course would be widely attended by the GMT crowd, and at the end of it gave some kind of RP reward to the people who regularly attended and put the most into it, is that really a bad thing? I think it's cool that their effort is rewarded, and no one would think anything of it. If, on the next one of his quests, still attended by his regulars (which is a good thing and I doubt anyone would say otherwise in this case), one of the people, when presented with a difficult situation said, "Wait. I may have an idea..." and used what was given to them to aid their predicament, does that mean that it was the only way to accomplish it?   Absolutely not, it is just a good player making use of the resources available to him. As in any good quest, if you want to do something, try it. If Tard Yard (sorry, couldn't resist :P) got some ring or another with some property or another on Aragwen's quest and thought of some genius way to use it in a different quest to help the party, that is a Good Thing.    Such is the case with Eldarwen, who has resources available to her that were rewards for a huge amount of effort and involvement, which she puts to use for progression instead of just flashing it around like a fancy title. If someone for some IN CHARACTER reason does not want to do it that way, and it's not just spite towards a good solution, then bring it up and what you would see done instead. I never see that. I just hear follow-the-leader complaints from people who can't or won't lead, who can't or won't contribute even something as small as a good attitude. I have seen Eldarwen step aside to let other people move, and see no one do so. With my experience in questing with her, she seems invariably targetted as BOTH someone who does everything, and someone who does nothing, in turn, sometimes about the same incident. It makes no sense and stems from bad feelings and IC actions that do not get addressed.       At the end of the last Dawn of Ages session, a character made repeated comments about wanting to keep some forbidden-type diamonds (long story, on pain of death though), chisel some off the body of something we were trying to save at the time, keep the magic armor, etc and just in general being in character and wanting material profit. After restoring someone to his rightful self and all that, we were told that he wanted to do something for us, so the whole point of the mission was brought up and agreed to. Success essentially achieved at that point. The character above asked the guy what would happen to the diamonds, of course, and was told basically "No." with a small laugh. All perfectly in character.   Mine said she would rather have a seashell for a keepsake anyway, with a nod from some others, and after a moment's thought, the little mer-guy dived down and came back with a personal kind of shell for everyone in the party, giving them one by one with the reason it was chosen. When he got to the guy who had often said something similar to "I'm going to get out of here and have nothing to show for it," he was tossed a simple beach conch and told to seek value within himself before around him and another type of "moral of the story" kind of comment.   It was classic and I think most people saw that coming a mile away. It was all in character and all made perfect sense, and yet based on previous experience I can see the guy going to all his friends and complaining that the DM is out for him personally and favors x member of the party... Not because I think the player is such a huge jerk, just because it seems to happen all the time that I wouldn't really be surprised.   IC actions = IC consequences and rewards.     Something that also leads to grumbling on their quests is that critical failures are rewarded along with critical successes. Frequenters of Pan and Storm quests fear the 1's because something is about to go horribly wrong, and rejoice at 20's because something will invariably go perfectly their way, even if the DM had not planned for something to happen, because no very good or very bad roll ever goes unrewarded or unpunished. People sometimes forget dice rolls and see the result of a character's 20 and complain that someone else is being catered to.   Reventage rolled a 20+7x on spellcraft on the last session of Angel's Tear, and basically shut down the whole central mechanism of what they were working on with a Look. ;)  His roll was hidden, so maybe someone now feels that Storm was just favoring Rev, and will tell a friend who will tell his friend who will leave and post a giant rant on the way, because that's how stupid rumors get started, when often a simple question would have clarified it.  I rolled a 20+3x on a search check to find the easiest way down a nasty climb for my character, and so made the descent enormously easier for her than someone else who would try. The ease with which Acacea made it down combined with the scream of pain from someone else biting it led to tells on "why did one barely make it and it was so easy for her?" At least they asked, so I could simply explain the effort she had made to research the climb first, instead of using something as silly as that to reinforce a favoritism rumor.  It is a little awkward to put a lot of time and devotion to attending your favorite series and then have the popular rumor going around that they only exist to level up someone else, and are only solveable by someone else. Some people enjoy them for their stories and roleplay and would continue to attend every session regardless of XP or 'material' reward, and that would not be the case if it was just a prop ladder for someone else to climb. There is an enormous amount of detail and work in them and some people genuinely appreciate that and put in the time for it.   You get back what you put in, and sometimes just using your head and interacting with each other well can help a more favorable outcome.    
  
• As for the twins, I was glad to see the huge story and effort involved in the whole history that had happened with them, rewarded. People were concerned with a precedent, but I prefer one and hope that long standing players who have contributed to the community would also have their characters reviewed if somehow the circumstances were repeated. They are rarely played, probably because of the uproar they caused and the attention that came from it, and when they are they are just PCs interacting with others as they are and without any special powers or rewards.      
• I do think there are problems within the GM team, some bigger than others, and have come to that conclusion with personal experience, after putting my opinion on hold despite the opinions of even friends, because I prefer to form my own. I also think that there are problems within the community, again with personal experience despite others trying to decide for me. I think that they are going to exist wherever you go, and unfortunately the further you dig, the more you're going to find.   Drama seems to reside everywhere, but when concrete problems come up, it's a Good Thing when they can actually be discussed. I'm mostly content to look for said concrete problems that can be addressed, rather than the kind whose foundations are only cemented with the magical solidifying ties of "They say."   (Edit for typo because I'm obsessive)

[Weeblie]

Normally, I would have stayed quiet, but after talking with others, I drew the conclusion that silence might not be best after all.

I agree with you that some of the PrCs are probably unbalanced, but I don't see that as a high priority "have to be fixed"-problem. One needs an approval to take a PrC so I feel that they are more like role-play classes than "make your character stronger"-classes. If one wants to make a strong character, go for the base classes only (fighter/rogue?). On the other hand, if one wants a more unique character but don't mind it to be weaker, pick a PrC. It's one's own choice.

The same goes for summons. If one wants the best summons, do some "research" before creating the character and pick the deity who gives you the "best" summons, or find a role-play reason to switch to that deity (if you already have a high level character). Oh, and don't read that wrong. I don't believe in "forced character development" either but it's always a possibility.

Flower, rid able horses, etc. That's also a point that we differs on. I tend to value "role-play enchanting addons" more than "combat useable" ones. But, of course, my playing style greatly differs from most people, I think. Like, I can sit down and listen to a 5-hour long story (*winks at you-know-who-you-are* ) and find it enjoyable. I doubt that many others think the same. But, it's alright. Different people have different opinions of what's fun and what's not.

Oh, and the farming system. Well, it's as good as finished. Just some testing, balancing and bug fixing left. The server has at least 6 months left until the switch to NWN2 (if the switch will happen at all). That's a long time... Very long time... Let us not worry about it yet!

The GM and development team are working for free (*looks up* Hm... Someone else already said it...). They (we... whatever!) don't get any benefits at all. Nope. None at all. Except for getting the opportunity to improve the best game world in... erh... the world! And there is a forum for suggestions ("NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests") and some ideas from there do get implemented. But not all of them, of course. Some things just take too much time or is too difficult to do. If one doesn't like an added thing, simply ask for it to be removed along with an explanation of why. If most people agree with the removal, I'm pretty sure it will be removed. After all, the team can't know what person wants/doesn't want if no one says anything! And, you got something you really, really want? Well, just create the feature yourself and send the example module to Dorganath/orth/Leanthar and I'm sure they'll take a look an it. And, if they find it suitable, it will be added.

As for the comment on orth... He has done much more to Layonara than what we think. A lot of work behind the scenes. And how many persons pat him on the shoulder, saying "thanks"? Much less than the people complaining, I bet. Oh, that reminds me... orth: Whatever others say about you, know that I support you to 100%.

There is one simple reason of why Pan-quests are viewed as Eld's "level up"-quest: Timezone trouble. Pan and Storm are the only people who regulary schedule their quests at Aussie/GMT time. I know that, as their quests are more or less the only ones I can attend to. No one is stopped from attending them (unless, the party is locked or something!).

And, the Allie and Silly (the twins) trouble... They were allowed because of their fantastic submissions and because the player base allowed them (poll can be found here: http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=20186 )! It's because they are excellent role-players (probably the best ones I've met, but it's kind of tricky to compare really good role-players...). Not because of that they are DMs. Besides, they have hardly any "special powers" or anything. Just some young human girls having fun exploring the world. (Don't trust me? Well, meet them in game then!)

And lastly, good bye Harloff! I didn't meet you so much in game but the few moments were... Well, interesting! Skarp and Allei have quite the opposite personality, heh!

I hope you'll fine another server that you feel comfortable with.

*waves*

Edit: Typos... Incorrect spellings... Bad grammar... Stuff like that!

[ZeroVega]

I was going to make an extremely long post outlining all of my opinions on the topics that Harloff brought up, hopefully defending Layonara in one manner or another, while at the same time giving constructive criticism to those ideas that have a good foundation but poor structure and hopefully rounding it off with a very enlightened and sagacious comment... but Pan and Acacea already took care of it so I'm just going to say. Yarg. Take care Harloff.

[Pen N Popper]

Disagree with original post.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

*He shrugs.* Nothing's perfect, and there are points well-made on all sides. Still, I am sorry to see Harloff go... But I am rather impressed with the level of maturity in the responses to Harloff's commentary, whether his comments were deserved or not.

The only other thing I have to say... The shell. Yeah, I grumbled, but I was grinning and laughing the whole time. I was even talking to Daren's player via tells a few moments before I got the shell, saying "He's going to leave Pyyran for last, and toss him something worthless, with a comment like 'Oh yeah, you get one too.'" It was all brilliantly funny, and I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry. Pyyran did learn one thing, if nothing else: Don't ask if you don't want someone to tell you you can't have it. (This will play into future Dawn of Ages quests. Oh yeah.)

Sure, I could complain of favoritism on Pan's part... Or on anyone's part, really. Pyyran gets a LOT of flak from Acacea in particular, but I don't hold any of it against Acacea the player (anymore; I'll admit to letting it get to me in the past, which is where it'll stay). I usually see most of Pyyran's misfortune coming, aside from the occasional death that catches me totally off-guard. I rolled pretty high on a Tumble to make it down a cliff unscathed... Pan emoted the other two, Acacea and Eldarwen, practically dancing down the cliff, while Pyyran made his way down rather slowly. Sure, Pyyran rolled an 18 or 19 (modified to 45, 46), but his FINAL RESULT was lower than either of the others' MODIFIERS. Then, when he was trying to make it back up, he rolled a 1 on the check, and fell to his doom. A painful, if not lethal, doom.

Sure, there wasn't a set DC for the wall. In NWN, especially in mixed parties, the best thing to do is base success on the quality of rolls, and the ability that's there. That's what helps make a balanced quest work. Or even an unbalanced one. And aye, there's no way Pyyran should've taken that much falling damage as per PnP rules, but A) we're not on PnP, and B) it was better for the RP to have him hit the ground, mostly dead and unconcious.

I can't really say anything about favoritism except that I haven't seen it. *He shrugs.*

Why does Plen get noble anything? I strongly suspect that he was part of the original PnP game, for one. No reason to trash a perfectly good character concept because the general masses can't be allowed special advantages. For another, he's been here in mutiple versions, I think back to the Beta. It's the same reason that there are families for a good many of the epics scattered across Layo as NPCs. The Reynolts, the Gueses... I'm sure there are others. Call favoritism if you like, but... What does it really matter? Plen is so busy dealing with world-threatening Sinthar Bloodstone that he doesn't have time to flex his muscles as a noble. For that matter, he's the Bird Lord, so why does him being a noble even make a difference?

Eh. I understand that there are problems percieved here that can't be fixed, for whatever reason. And I'm sorry to see you go, Harloff.

[Acacea]

I'm not sure what the Plen nobility thing is about. He's the Bird Lord because of his ECDQ, Reventage is the Harper because of his--they were not created as the daughter of the current one or the next in line to the position, and NPCs aren't put in because the player is cool, but because of some quest development or another.

It wouldn't be allowed on submission regardless of DM or not, which is exactly why the issue came up with the twins. As it should. The community decided they could handle it, and with that approval opened the way for others in the future who can put in the time and dedication necessary to do the same. If it were any other way, it WOULD be favoritism.


Pyyran's modified tumble roll was 39. Acacea's is not maxed, though I had an okay roll on it. (45). Eldarwen's modifier was yes, higher than your roll, but as I told you at the time, I received a substantial bonus to the climb check because Acacea first went over the whole length of the chasm looking for the easiest way to get down (and rolled a twenty.) You got a good roll and as such were making it down, but of course Acacea was bleeding to death and much conflict was going on at the bottom...so it was when you abandoned the good roll that it went sour.

Everyone gets a lot of flak from Acacea, which is usually intended good naturedly and not out of spite.

[Weeblie]

Acacea is indeed insulting everyone... Friends and foes alike!

[Meizter]

I will just make a quick comment.

Weeblie stated that:

I agree with you that some of the PrCs are probably unbalanced, but I don't see that as a high priority "have to be fixed"-problem. One needs an approval to take a PrC so I feel that they are more like role-play classes than "make your character stronger"-classes. If one wants to make a strong character, go for the base classes only (fighter/rogue?). On the other hand, if one wants a more unique character but don't mind it to be weaker, pick a PrC. It's one's own choice.

I do not agree with this. Classes, be it "basic" or prestige, are the core of D&D. A game which has a lot of focus on combat, and even though this is an RP server it goes here as well. How many monster have we not slain over our time here and we have not slain them with our RP skills . No we kill by using our classes, hence also in Layonara classes are at the core of the game.  So even though there may be 9 working and 2 not working classes that is still in my opinion 2 non-working classes too much. Yes I know balancing takes a lot of time, but I do believe it should none the less lie at the top of any priority list.

Could be I'm biased as I play one of the broken classes, but trust me it is not such joyous fun to have 10 levels of a class where you get 6 special feats which all look great, but only 2 are really usable unless you want to fight goblins (which have perhaps a 50+% chance of surviving) or birds and other critters.

Just my opinion on that matter. I will post a more in-depth comment on the points made in Harloff's post later.

[GhostWhoWalks]

I rarely post any more unless something comes up that really requires my attention. The OP said that players here don't have any influence. To me, that's just not true. While players may not direcly impact the rules that they are playing by... they impact the world they are living in.

GM's don't decide to make someone epic. The player does by doing epic things. It's not about skill rolls. It's not about class. Build. Race. Summons. PrC. It's not about anything mechanic based. It's about how you are and what you do in the world.

Think small, you'll be small. Think big, and you'll be big.

Excuse spelling, it's late and I should be in bed. But I check the forums before bed every night and this I feel required my attention.

If you think something should be changed, ask to be a part of the project team. Work with them to change the problems. Too often do they get complaints about this or that, and no offer to help make the changes. While some of you may think it contrite to say we aren't getting paid for this... well... we're not. We never were. I spent countless hours creating the initial V2 release with Leanthar and Forsetti. Just the three of us. After thousands of manhours making something, when someone says... change so and so. Well... even if we agree that so and so needs changed, there are things that may be more important to fix. Sad. But true. Want to speed up the fixes? Lend a hand.

I built the skald class. We have in the GM forums the list of changes that need to be made to the class. One day, they'll get put in. But right now, those changes effect a very small group of people. Probably fewer than five. While many of the changes that are going in impact everyone. Or a much larger majority.

So tough decisions are made sometimes. Decisions that may upset or alienate a group. But sometimes, you have to trust that the decisions being made are for the good of the land. People too often see the small picture. How things impact them. Or thier friends. We have to look at the big picture. How things impact the server. The community. And the long term goals of the world in general. It's a fine line. It's not always easy and it's rarely black and white. But they are doing it as well as they can. And that should be celebrated.

A huge portion of the community have been or are now GMs. People come and go. Trends with players come and go.

I'm probably the GM that's been on the team the longest now with a few others recently gone. While I don't directly make quests or even log on with the GM client... I have more of a clinical role of discussion and such, people often forget that those of us that have been GM's the longest here. Myself, Pan, a few others... were picked because our characters were played so well. It was proof to Leanthar that we were mature. Creative. All that. So when we became GM's, nothing changed. Our characters didn't suddenly become more special. We had already laid the ground works for that through action in game and good role playing, that's why we were chosen in the first place.

To the person a couple posts above, Orth wasn't part of the orignal P&P game. He came in the second wave of players with Enzo and Rhizome and a few others. They all started about the same time. Or close to the same time. This was well before V2. Back when the GM team was very small. The world was very small.

Like all players, that have them, Orth earned his titles through quests. Roleplay. And taking initative.

I'm a Baron not because I was a GM. But because I saved the city of Lar from multiple invasions. Erected a temple there that has turned Lar from a small village to a thriving hub for traders. And performed a favor that saved the entire Greypeaks area from an invasion for the Queen and kingdom. Who the player was was irrelivant. It was the deeds that the character did that made him a Baron.

Folks really need to learn to seperate us as GM's, us as players and us as characters. They are three very very different entities. Try to remember not to lump us all into one box. We're multifacated.

[IceDragonDuvessa]

There are points I agree with harloff on and some that I don't listed there, agree or not I am glad to see someone bring their frustrations to light rather than let them fester in the background and not share them to get them resolved. While sure it could, and should have, been worded more eloquently and without the direct insults I am glad to see someone voicing thier opinion rather than simply talking behind peoples backs.

[Dorganath]

I am going to preface my comments with the statement that they are intended to be constructive and to hopefully dispell a few incorrect and faulty assumptions, upon which a series of unfortunate conclusions have been made.
  First of all, your post will not get you banned. Your voicing of an opinion will not get you banned. In fact, there's been enough secretly whispered jabs and criticisms boiling just under the surface. If anything, getting some of them into the light of day is in some ways better than letting them fester....though your choice of wording and phrasing could have been much more constructive.  Unless you intend to make things into a nasty, name-calling grudge fest, polluting the forums with accusations, foul language and generally anti-social behavior, you may express your opinions, yes even if we don't like them, and not be banned. Where this misconception came from I'm not sure, but we don't ban for dissenting opinions. I can't think of one person who was banned simply because they did not agree. I can think of several people who were banned because they chose to make an ugly issue of their disagreement, but again, that had the qualities I expressed above. So far, you have not shown that.
  So having said that, if you leave, you do so under your own power.
  From my perspective, what I think almost everyone forgets is the phenomenal amount of effort it takes to actually keep this place running and improve it with bug fixes, new systems and updated systems. We only have so many hours in the day. This is an all volunteer effort and none of us receives a s... of currency from our efforts. Ever. We have day jobs, school, families, obligations outside of Layonara and yet we find the time to try and make this place incrementally better for all players.
  Your comments regarding orth and his "drama", in my opinion, were fully inappropriate. Arguably no one else has put in as much time and effort behind the scenes into making this place what it is today. To put in that kind of effort and then be deluged by complaints because someone's personal favorite feature was not attended to in a "proper" way can be very disheartening. Managing these modules is not easy. I know, because I do it.
  On the issue of bugs in updates...again, we're not perfect. We do the best we can with the time we have. In many cases, we cannot fully test something until it's placed in a module and actually used by players. Problems will surface. Problems will be fixed. Perhaps they won't be fixed in the order that makes you the happiest, but the development and GM teams are more concerned with the server as a whole. That is our top priority.
  On the specific mention of farming...*sighs* I don't know what to tell you here, except that farming is being implemented now, and we fully plan to carry it over to NWN2. I don't have any idea why you would think otherwise or why you would assume we would put this kind of effort into something we're just going to abandon in a few months. In fact, we are using the current platform as a testbed for farming so that we can make sure it's nice and solid for NWN2. And I'll even go so far as to tell you that farming will be very important in NWN2. Really, your assumption makes no sense to me at all. Perhaps you can explain it.
  On the question of secrecy...again...I don't know what to tell you. On Krashin in particular, the fact of the matter is that very, very little has been written about Krashin at all. It's one of the very last places ever added to Layonara before it went online, and so it's history and influences are rather thin. That's all. There's no grand secret conspiracy to keep Krashinites in the dark about their homeland. In fact, you are more than welcome to make some suggestions or even write something yourself and submit it to EdTheKet for review and possible inclusion. "Be part of the solution..." as the saying goes. On the disposition of characters when we switch to NWN2, again, there is no secret there. The decision simply has not been made. Can I say that again? The decision has not been made. If it's a secret, then it's a secret from the GM team as well.
  As for the rest...*shrugs* It's been covered well enough already.
  If you choose to leave then that is your perogative, and I wish you well and hope you find what you're looking for out there.

[Leanthar]

Yep, you are indeed banned. Out of all players I have ever banned I find this one the most difficult. Not because of this post because indeed it makes the choice rather simple but because I know you are a good person. Sadly you decided to take pot shots at people in this community and that is not allowed. If anybody takes things personal and starts taking shots at people in a community they will get banned and that is what you have done. I really hope you enjoyed making this post but I am sorely disappointed in how you took it personal. Constructive criticism is always needed and respected and has made many changes within the world when it is given time. Personal criticism and just being a downright jerk will not get anything changed.   “…..like the history about Krashin that is secret according to recent posts…..”   This is a good comment on how exaggerated things are in your post, but one of many. Nowhere in the posts from yesterday, nowhere, did I or anybody say it was a secret. What was stated is that it will be put in to the next handbook on the next update. I don’t see that being a secret in any way-shape-or-form. What I do see it saying is that it will be released officially at an official time and when we get time finish off the handbook for all players to download. You clearly have no idea what it takes to make that handbook, to take all of the player changes and get them merged in to the handbook, and what it takes to get all of the new or GM changed information in to the handbook. So instead you decide it must be because secrets are being kept. The handbook alone, all by its lonely self, will take Edtheket at least one hundred hours to get everything merged together, fixed up, and released. That is not chump time when he is not being paid and he is doing it between RL, GM’ing, and trying to play. Now you take the other 100’s of hours of people using their volunteer times to change the world, write-up those changes, submit newly defined maps, get new artwork in there, and submit and you are talking at least 500 hours just to get the handbook done.   “….As a player you are constantly asked to donate for the server but why should a player donate? The players don’t have any influence, they aren’t even allowed to say “I think this is an awful idea!” the only thing allowed is to march at the same pace as the team wants you to. And if you get out of step and state you’re mind you can be quite sure to have a DM will give you a very impolite answer, or you might get lucky and see ORTH’s drama queen act. “When I read something like this I just don’t know why I spend so many hours on this project…” I really like that one, always gets the tears in my eyes, quite Shakespearean actually….”   So then don’t donate, if that is how you feel do not donate. Not everybody feels the same way as you though so don’t put words in to others mouth. You are speaking for the community here, not for yourself. You have no right to speak for the community, nobody does and that includes me. I don’t see anywhere on these forums where we state you must donate to play nor do I see any threats in any way if you do not donate. Pretty simple do not donate. And here you decided to take it personal on Orth. What is that all about man? Come on, clearly this entire post is now made ridiculous and has been lowered to childish babble because you decided to take a pot shot at somebody who has put in a few thousand hours of volunteer help on the world so that the large community can enjoy their time for free. How many hours have you put in to this world other than as a player in your 16 months here? That is a valid question since you clearly have so many issues and criticisms. I think we all know how many it has been and that is a few thousand hours less than Orth.   “…..Rules… yeah well there are more rules on Layo than the team will ever be able to control. But one of the worst rules is: These rules don’t apply to all players… for instance if you are a GM everything goes, e.g. Storm and Pan were allowed to break the rule about not having a noble/famous bloodline…..”   I brought this exact thing to the community in this thread: http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=201... . Clearly the community stated they felt it was okay. Are you in one hand saying the community should be able to do whatever they want and decide whatever they want but then the GM team should ignore the results? Again you are talking for the community but this time there is a vote and community input and you are still in the wrong and this time we happen to have proof. But since the community and the end decision did not agree with your thought pattern it must be wrong, that is clearly what you are stating here.  “….And it is a well know fact among the players that Pan has run “level-up exp” quest especially designed for Storms Eldárwen Hilliaraname….”   I do believe ALL quests that are run are in some way “level up exp”, all quests. That includes my plot series, other GM run quest series, all of them are rewarded with EXP to level up.   “….and it doesn’t make you cool to write everything in orange either any idiot can do that, in the beginning I found it quite intimidating but my current theory is that you are compensating for something….”   Right, now we are brought back to our early school days because we have somebody targeting text colors in posts. This just pretty much made all of your other personal pot shots and this vendetta post a joke. No constructive criticism there that is for certain.   “….“When a fish smells, it is from its head, and if you want to remove the smell you cut of its head!”   Not that I want L removed but the root for all these problems lies in the GM team and the only way to change things is to make some changes there…..”   Sure I can leave but when I do this world goes with me. A more simple solution is for you to leave since you do not enjoy playing here. If you do not enjoy playing a game (any game) then just quite playing the game. That is a rather simple solution. If you do not enjoy doing something in RL (a sport, a job, or something like that) you quit doing it and find something new. Pretty simple solution.   “….*Picks up his axe and walks out the door, in the doorway he looks back over his shoulder with a sad look on his face saying a last goodbye to world he used to love. He pulls himself together and walks out into the world trying to find a server that respects the players and appreciate their opinions.*….”   Bye. It is unfortunate that you decided to feel sorry for yourself and then decided to attack players. Instead of feeling sorry for yourself you should have helped out on the teams. Instead though you wanted to hold it all in for some reason and then just unload all at one time. I personally do not have the time (or desire) to deal with a player that wants to feel sorry for him/herself. Perhaps you didn’t have the time or desire but by that very fact it should click in your brain just what the other teams are doing—volunteering their time in a function that gives little in return. And yeah you will likely find a server out there that you enjoy but eventually you will let everything that you perceive as unfair and unbalanced eat at you until you make another post like this. Hopefully you learn by your friends showing you these responses or you somehow learn it does not do any good to take pot shots at people. But rest assured and you can ask the dozens of people (if not hundreds+) that have come back after leaving that all servers have problems with game-play, balance, teams and community. Our community is one of the best around and the team is definitely the most professional. If you are lucky enough to find a community this large that is of such quality with such a professional team then stick with it because they are rare and far in-between.   In the future people need to learn to quit taking things personally. We make updates when we can get them done. We have more content in this world than many of the other servers combined. Maybe it is not what everybody here thinks should be added or in the world but it is what the teams have decided should be in. If you don’t like it then there are literally hundreds of other servers to play on. We do content changes because we feel certain things are needed or because we are planning for things in the future or because we want to add RP abilities. We usually (not always) try to fix bugs that would affect the largest amount of players or cause the most overall problems before we get to the smaller bugs that affect less people. Some things, such as PrC’s are not simple things to fix or update and they certainly are not easy to get right. One thing I have learned from the whole PrC thing is that I will probably not put them in again. We get too much flak, too much time sync in man-power, and very little thanks and appreciation for them being in place. They just are not worth the hassle when using NwN and D&D systems in a PW environment. Changes do not happen over night and it is quite difficult to make sweeping updates in an NwN module with multiple servers and each module being 75+meg in size.   One other thing of note: The GM forums are indeed for the GM’s. They function not to keep secrets or gossip or anything like that. They are there so that the GM team can function as a team and get things done, nothing more and nothing less. It works just like in RL where management makes decisions and enforces those decisions. If a player has a problem with management in RL they will likely have a problem with the GM team but that will happen anywhere in RL or on any world. It is a simple fact of life. All worlds, all companies, all volunteer projects, all boards, all groups have some form of management involved. You might want to get used to that otherwise you will not make it very far in life. We have many other closed forums in place, project team, project writers, lore team, deity forums, guild forums etc. They are private to those groups of players and team members and they should remain that way so that players can post about their plans and the teams can work in ways that are constructive and conducive to a good working environment. One of the very reasons we have these closed off (but only a small one of many others) is so that we do not have to deal with players that like to take things personal or like to take pot-shots at team members, players, or ideas/suggestions.   If you had not taken personal pot shots or posted in such clearly mean spirited and loathing words at some in the community you would not have been banned. If you had posted constructively this would have had a far different result and perhaps a few changes would have come from it at some point You crossed the line and you knew it when you were doing it.   This topic is now frozen.