Why X Familiar is Broken Thread

[Dyslogia]

This could be a very interesting discussion! However this won't be a clear answer to "why X familiar is broken", but rather an answer to "What can I use X familiar to, when it can't pick locks or traps". I've just made my character Rajistin, a halfling wizard with an eyeball familiar. "Why pick an eyeball and not the pocket-rogue pixie?" you may ask, and the answer is simply that familiars holds a tremendous amount of RP-value and possibilities! Its a wonderful challenge to bring life to both your character and the familiar through roleplaying, especially in a situation where the two have very different personalities.
  The eyeball companion is an excellent example of this, as it serves as the malevolent and scoundrelly opposite of my character, being an evil beast who hates everybody and everything. However I play after the principle that the familiar is completely harmless and unable to affect the world, no matter what intents it has. Thus the eyeball may try to rough up everything, but always resulting in failure... Likewise one could play a mischievous imp, a ne'er-do-well pseudodragon or a wannabe-vampire bat!  
  Moreover familiars could be quite an interesting part of a character's development in game: perhaps the bat-familiar helped the gnome master (who was very afraid of the dark) to become fond of dark forests and caves, or the feline grace of the panther inspired the noisy Sir Bigfoot to move silently. Pixies have great possibilities too, just think of the jealous Tinkerbell from Peter Pan - and did she do locks and DC 65 traps while the lost boys looked the other way?
  Well, the point with this reply was to encourage future wizards/sorcerers to incorporate their familiars in their character submission and development - it's fun and challenging, and if it isn't your style there's simply one summon-button less to click!
  ♣ Dyslogia

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

A very fine post, Dyslogia!

Recall, however, that a caster's familiar must (in PnP but NOT NWN) be within two "steps" of the caster's alignment. This is mainly because the summoning and binding of a familiar makes the creature bound to the caster... Which is why losing the familiar hurts so bad. The creature becomes familiar to the caster in a very deep, profound way.

That said, I'm not sure how it works, exactly, in Layo.

[Jearick Hgar]

I see familiars as a huge rp device that's completly over looked. Wizards have familiars to help with gathering materials as they are rply not very athletic, which is why a good amoutn of them can fly. reaching high places and such.

Personally, i think when someone applies for a Wizard they should have to applie for their familiar as well. have them be like cleric domains, where a god only allows certain familiars. for instance, Corath isn't allow his wizards runnign around with pixies, and neither is Pyrtechon, ont he same hand Toran wouldn't let his Wizards roam with imps or eyeballs. It makes no sence.

famliars should deffinatly make since with the character. A pixie doesn't even work for alot of chars who have them out in the NWN world. i see many anti social wizards with Pixies, Wizards choose their familiar, so why would an anti social wizard choose a pixie? they'd want something that's quiet like a bat or a raven, or a hell hound.

[IDii]

Right then.
In this post X = pixie like everyone else who posted here seems to think.

If Layonara was a MMO and we all paid to play here every month:

Rogue: "Hey... Um, you guys need a rogue in your party? I can open locks and disarm traps."
Wizard: "lol? u kiddin m8? we dont need u we have pixi familiar with skillfocus with traps and locks. we dont need u to steal our gold!
Rogue: "Well... I could sneak ahead of your group to scout so you won't run into any ambushes."
Wizard: "ROFL m8 inviz pwnz j00 sl0w stealth."
Rogue: "Well... I do have to say with my 20 rogue levels I deal quite a nice amount of sneak attack damage, being useful in combat too."
Wizard: "LOL! m8 we got weirdz and wailz lol. l2p nub reroll!1"
Rogue: "..."

But since it's not a MMO and no one's being paid for doing things about game balance there's only so much time and so much work that can be done with that time.
Of course it would be really cool if the pixies would be changed so that they wouldn't have maxed rogue levels, ranks in all rogue skills with skill focus in a few of them too.

But that takes a lot of work.

Might be just easier to remove the whole familiar anyway.
But I do have to say it's annoying to struggle with a trap and then watch a few levels lower pixie just magically appear from someone's pockets, disable it and disappear as mysteriously as it appeared.

[Weeblie]

Maybe making them only summonable in the "safe" areas like cities (*dodges the incomming tomatoe)?

That will at least remove the pocketiness part of them.

---

Another thing is that I don't believe you have to change all the familiars for the moment, but only the über-Pixie. I've never heard anyone complain about any of the other familiars.

Maybe if one simply removes the Disable Trap + Open Lock skills from it completely?

[Lilswanwillow]

there ya go-remove lock picking, so its completely RP.

Thats feasible, if anyone on the team could do it, but is it standard NWN?

only summoning in safe areas isn't... nice.  Lets say group is on a quest in the middle of a dungeon, and I have to summon my dragon for such-and such a reason.  wouldn't beable to do it, eh?

[Weeblie]

It could be seen in the sense that you no longer is "summoning" it, but that's it's always present (or not). I.e. leave it at home (and, naturally, you won't be able to use it in the middle of the dungeon) or bring it with you (have it summoned before walking into the dungeon)!

[Serissa]

Death to pixies, or poxies, as they are known to those of us in "the trade"!

Unsigned

[gilshem ironstone]

Can it be mandated that in character submission there must be special attention made to the choice of familiar?  Then the team could demand certain RP requirements to have a pixie and prevent flooding the wizard and sorcerer community with them.

[steverimmer]

I have a wizard...a goblin, his name is Bilvikki or Bil if you know him.  He has an imp familiar called Anoxis.  When I created Bil, his familiar took a major role in his submission...purposely.  Anoxis is a major part of Bil's character and sometimes from my point of view it can be hard to tell if Anoxis is Bil's familiar or Bil is Anoxis's familiar.  Whenever I play Bil I always try to either show Anoxis's presence in someway, either through speech or more often though emotes.  After all Anoxis is always present as he lives in Bil's hat (which is part of the goblin wizards model), this also means I can summon him all over the place because he's always there.  Sometime ago Anoxis was killed in a quest and Bil was devastated.  He spent several weeks trying to find someone who'd resurrect his fallen friend and eventually he did...but that had major consequences leading to two deity changes as well as influencing his whole future.

I think that an earlier poster was right...familiars should be approved with the wizard character and should play a part in the original submission.  I don't think that we need to change them in any real way, or restrict where you can summon them.  If they're RP'd right they can add a whole new dimension to playing a wizard or sorcerer.  Sometimes I've actually logged on and spent the next hour or so just playing the familiar character...useful in the sense you can get to know him better which helps in his RP.

[Talan Va'lash]

gilshem ironstone - 2/15/2007  9:55 AM

Can it be mandated that in character submission there must be special attention made to the choice of familiar?  Then the team could demand certain RP requirements to have a pixie and prevent flooding the wizard and sorcerer community with them.

Thats an interesting idea.

---

To address a question earlier in this thread, no wizard or sorcerer HAS to have a familiar per PnP/RP rules (even though you have to technically pick one in the NWN mechanics.)

It would be completely fine to RP that you don't have one.

I like how BG2 handled familiars, you didn't have one until you learned a spell that allowed you to summon one and perform the binding ritual. In PnP you would have to actually find one, then perform the ritual but thats not really going to work in the PW. in BG2 the familiar you got was based on your alignment with a bit of randomness. I had a salt mephit iirc.

So yeah, there no reason every wiz/sorc has to have a familiar. You could start "without" one and RP finding one later. Which would be more fun IMO.

[LynnJuniper]

gilshem ironstone - 2/15/2007  11:55 AM

Can it be mandated that in character submission there must be special attention made to the choice of familiar?  Then the team could demand certain RP requirements to have a pixie and prevent flooding the wizard and sorcerer community with them.

Repeated because this is a good idea.

I just wish I knew that familiars in NWN/D&D Weren't like daemons in His Dark Materials (quick explanation: Daemons in that book were a part of the person itself, an extension which could change form until it came to chose a form fitting). In the beginning Rhynn's familliar changed a few times just cause I didn't know any better. I'm kind of regretful that I didn't put more thought into the familiar aspect now, else I would've probably made it so she didn't have one at all, as she is now. (Her pixie is released in the Sleeping Forest so if you're killing those Rhynn will get pretty upset )

[lonnarin]

"steverimmer - 2/15/2007  11:06 AM

I think that an earlier poster was right...familiars should be approved with the wizard character and should play a part in the original submission."

----

As a former submissions guru, I have to point out that these poor people have enough on their hands already than to approve and ask for familiar submissions as well as characters, resubmissions, prestige classes, rebuilds etc.  I remember little more than 2 years ago when people could submit for their prestige classes starting out and the world was just fine.  In fact, most of the current world leaders today were submitted for back then, and if their status, involvement and RP is any indication, the new regulations haven't had much overall difference save for making things more difficult for the staff.  Somewhere over the course of the years, rules and standards and stickies and forms all added up to make a chaotic system of cross-checking, re-verifying, pledges etc.  

Now new players have to look through about 5 pages minimum to even know what to write in their character submission, and most of these are are shuffled around stickies in semi-coherent order, frustrating both submitter and approver to no end.  When all the level splits, starting ages, training regiments, domains, declarations of not being of noble blood, religious oaths, preferred weapons etc are tallied up, then one has to cross-check the entire LORE directory and campaign manual for consistancy in history, geography and plot.  Meanwhile you wind up getting 20 posts in the same thread saying "Why hasn't my submission been processed yet?  its not fair! bumpbumpbumpbump!!!" all spaced about 30 seconds from eachother.  It's a very thankless and stressful job, and I hope for the sake of the submissions team that haven't burned out yet, that no new stipulations and random stickies be added to the already chaotic process.  It's already like filling out TPS reports in a wind tunnel/ball pit.

I still remember those years long ago before the clutter and chaos.  GMs were far more available for actual quests then too instead of having their queue forcefed the steady tides of PRC CDQs.  (THE main reason I quit GMing too, I had all these trilogies written up I wanted to run, but everybody and their mother wanted to play PRCs XYZ and the queue kept growing by like 3 submissions a week despite the huge blinking letters stating "No new submissions!")  Please do not make things even tougher with more familiar submissions on top of all the red tape we aleady collected along the years.

Plus, what if somebody's new and they feel like testing out one familiar this level, another the next, etc?  Does that mean they have to resubmit just to change something at levelup?  ah... what headaches!

---

Back to the topic of Familiars and their "broken" natures, (pixie being pretty much the only big one) keep in mind that pixies cannot use dex gear, utility belts, fiery blades, social skills, lockpicks, etc to improve their chances.  They can't own a house or run a thieves guild, ride a horse, use magic devices, etc.  They are in no way "better" than rogues of their level, unless said rogue was just a major slacker who never bothered to put a sizeable amount of skills into breaking and enterng.  In most cases where the pixie unlocked the door and the rogue felt left out, they were either significantly lower level than the conjuring magician, or just not very well trained in locks.  That being said, pixies are also a major embarassment to wizards of insecure masculinity...  "hey look, that guy wears a skirt and summons fairies".  The mage has to bear the stygma of having the least intimidating sidekick of all time, in  leiu of hellhounds, beholders, dragonkin and homicidal panthers.  Woe be unto them.

I always preferred using the beholderkin as mine, (The Nefarious Mr. Quimby) giving him an inefectual villain's role to counteract my kindly old dottering gnome wizard.  He'd usually just be angry about everything and complain about his being summoned without hands, despite his inherent piano skills.  He'd be constantly trying to escape or kill Brilligimble in his sleep, but his lack of hands or overinflated ego always wound up being his downfall.  From a tactical standpoint he was fun too as a mini "blaster-turret" in combat, helping chip in on some long ranged devastation.  I usually summon familiars for combat as if they were pokemon, using them once per day briefly when in trouble or wanting to show off in pitched battles, then unsummoning them back to the void.  Other than that, all they really are, are RPable little minions to interact with.  My next favorite one's probably the Hellhound, just for pure asthetic value.

[Eight-Bit]

As a long time player of Rogues (and this game) I believe that you all are making a lot of noise about a subject that really, if you examine it closely, has little effect upon you or your character.

The Pixie is a target of people because it is a peripheral rogue. There benefits and drawbacks to the Pixie that I will detail here, as they are important to know before you start suggesting such a change.

The Pixie has very little melee presence, and even though the dagger it uses increases in enhancement bonus about the same time it gains another casting of Improved Invisiblity, it's ability to act as a tank is non-existant. The base AC is very low and the amount of damage it can turn out per combat round is not worth calculating. Even though it is a Rogue it does not gain sneak attacks beyond 1d6 if I am not mistaken. That leaves you with a small noise making rogue that's actual use is limited to disabling traps, opening locked doors, casting Improved Invisiblity, and a minimal source of damage.

What you have to understand is that the familiars and animal companions were not really designed for multiplayer use, espically not in a PW, much like most of the base NWN content. The various changes you could make to the pixie and have it still preform on par with the rest of the familiars have to be considered quite carefully.

If you totally remove it's rogue abilities you cripple the actual use of the Pixie as a familiar. As a stand alone creature, unable to open locks or disable traps, it falls far behind the others. If you however slow the progression of skill points in open locks and disable traps you will still have to deal with people casting Find Traps on their Pixie and buffing dexterity to gain the same results as before. There is not always a rogue around, or one of a particular level for an area or server, and if the pixie were to be removed or altered from it's current state you will notice a change. If you like it, or hate it, there will always be a situation in a player's life where the pixie saves the day. It is just what pixies do, and one of the reasons why I would like to see them stay as they are.

I am not upset when someone summons the pixie to open a door, even as my Rogue. It does not change how useful I am, because we as players will always preform better than an automated flying glitter ball. Even when we fail to be as reliable as the Pixie, we're still a human playing our PCs and I find that getting worried about the power of a summoned object that acts more as a flying tool than anything is unnecessary. A PC Rogue will be able to react to changing situations, gather the trap, and use it in later encounters. Three things that a Pixie is unable to do. A PC Rogue will always be someone you can RP with, but not a Pixie. That's some strange kind of masturbatory RP that I can't even concieve as entertainment.

in truth though, seeing as there is no reward to unlocking or disabling traps with a pixie, other than gaining entry to another area, there is little actual change to anyone's game. It does not change the game for a Rogue, and if anything reduces the risk they are put through while disabling a trap on a door by putting the risk of critical failure in the hands of an object that cannot get Death Tokens. And even then, on the subject of traps anywhere - smart useage of summons can provide the same effect of a pixie in dealing with a trap.

It is a tough situation and one I wouldn't want to be deciding. I just wanted to put these facts (and my opinion) out there so that people can make a more informed suggestion. I am sorry if this overlaps anything else, but I feel that it's necessary to round up some key points in a post so a discussion doesn't dissolve into a flame war. It keeps it on topic.

[lonnarin]

Ah almost forgot one point on the pixie:  Never underestimate how funny it is to watch them fail to disable a trap and explode.

ESPECIALLY if you're a rogue in the party.

[Eight-Bit]

lonnarin - 2/15/2007 4:18 PM Ah almost forgot one point on the pixie: Never underestimate how funny it is to watch them fail to disable a trap and explode. ESPECIALLY if you're a rogue in the party.

 I would like to also point out the Pixie's ability to do as lonnarin stated. Is funny, ya.

[Drizzlin]

LynnJuniper - 2/15/2007  11:46 AM

gilshem ironstone - 2/15/2007  11:55 AM
(Her pixie is released in the Sleeping Forest so if you're killing those Rhynn will get pretty upset )

*smirks wickedly*

[Drizzlin]

lonnarin - 2/15/2007  1:02 PM

"Back to the topic of Familiars and their "broken" natures, (pixie being pretty much the only big one) keep in mind that pixies cannot use dex gear, utility belts, fiery blades, social skills, lockpicks, etc to improve their chances.  They can't own a house or run a thieves guild, ride a horse, use magic devices, etc.  They are in no way "better" than rogues of their level, unless said rogue was just a major slacker who never bothered to put a sizeable amount of skills into breaking and enterng.  In most cases where the pixie unlocked the door and the rogue felt left out, they were either significantly lower level than the conjuring magician, or just not very well trained in locks.  That being said, pixies are also a major embarassment to wizards of insecure masculinity...  "hey look, that guy wears a skirt and summons fairies".  The mage has to bear the stygma of having the least intimidating sidekick of all time, in  leiu of hellhounds, beholders, dragonkin and homicidal panthers.  Woe be unto them.

I always preferred using the beholderkin as mine, (The Nefarious Mr. Quimby) giving him an inefectual villain's role to counteract my kindly old dottering gnome wizard.  He'd usually just be angry about everything and complain about his being summoned without hands, despite his inherent piano skills.  He'd be constantly trying to escape or kill Brilligimble in his sleep, but his lack of hands or overinflated ego always wound up being his downfall.  From a tactical standpoint he was fun too as a mini "blaster-turret" in combat, helping chip in on some long ranged devastation.  I usually summon familiars for combat as if they were pokemon, using them once per day briefly when in trouble or wanting to show off in pitched battles, then unsummoning them back to the void.  Other than that, all they really are, are RPable little minions to interact with.  My next favorite one's probably the Hellhound, just for pure asthetic value.

I think this (along with 8bits post) has been the best post here. Of all things, getting upset about a pixie seems so minor to me. Anyone who says "i don't want a rogue, because I have a pixie" is wacko. Are pixie's stronger than the other familiars? I would say no, they just have a unique ability to be able to pick a lock or disarm a trap. Other familiars in the game are more of extra summons. I would rather put time and energy into v3!!! I am not saying this topic should not be discussed, I just see it as a very minor issue and even a bit blown up to some degree.

A final suggestion to everyone making a post, can you put if you actually play/played a wizard and what familiars you have used? I personally have only done the Pixie, pseudodragon, and spider.

[Lalaith Va'lash]

Drizzlin - 2/15/2007 6:19 PM I think this has been the best post here. Of all things, getting upset about a pixie seems so minor to me. Anyone who says "i don't want a rogue, because I have a pixie" is wacko.
  Are pixie's stronger than the other familiars? I would say no, they just have a unique ability to be able to pick a lock or disarm a trap. Other familiars in the game are more of extra summons. I would rather put time and energy into v3!!! I am not saying this topic should not be discussed, I just see it as a very minor issue and even a bit blown up to some degree. A final suggestion to everyone making a post, can you put if you actually play/played a wizard and what familiars you have used? I personally have only done the Pixie, pseudodragon, and spider.

 Maybe? Maybenot. But they have somthing going for them, as they are the only familiar I've ever (in two years of playing) seen actually used for somthing other than flying around Hlint. To me that says a lot, but that is just me.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Tyeaan's panther can scout pretty darned well.