Paladin vs. Cleric turn undead

[Skywatcher]

I was wondering if anyone else had seen this or if there was a good way to test if things were working the way they are supposed to.  As a paladin I know you are supposed to turn undead at your level -2 compared to a cleric but with a +10 CHA modifier and 18 levels of paladin it should be about equivalent to a 26th level cleric with a 10 CHA.  I have always felt some thing was wrong with turning since I saw lower level clerics have a moch larger affect on undead than I did.  Today I went into Storan's crypt and tried to turn undead and only feared a couple of the Revenants.  It just seems that something is wrong and that it should be more effective than that.  I can't see any of the rolls behind the turning so I can't tell if it's working the way it should or not.  Any comments would be greatly appreciated.   Thanks.

[Hellblazer]

These are the few information i gathered.

Turn Undead: Starting at Level 4, a paladin using holy energy to turn undead a number of time equal to Charisma modifier +3 per rest period.

and

see this

My feeling about this is that clerics are primarily spell casters/healers which would tend to give them a stronger authority in their spells vs the paladin that is mostly a zealot of good champion of combat granted a few spells by their deities to help them win. Which would mean that their primary purpose is not as a caster but a fighter. but this is my perspective. Also don't forget that the spell strength is in the wisdom, cha adds some but its mostly wisdom.

[Skywatcher]

LORE has a huge amount of detail about how it is supposed to work here:

LORE: Turn Undead

But It just doesn't seem like it's working at the effect it should be.  I wish I could build two characters, a cleric and a paladin of the same stats with the paladin 2 levels higher and test them against the same undead but I don't have that capability.

[Weeblie]

I think it's working as it should...

The reason that a level 18 paladin (+10 cha modifier) doesn't seem to have an equally strong turn as a level 26 cleric (+0 cha modifier) is that the first can only destroy creatures up to 9 HD while the later can kill creatures up to 13 HD, even if the paladin is most probably turning more creatures than the cleric.

If the character has twice as many levels as the undead have HD, the undead are instantly destroyed.

[s0ulz]

Here's the thing:

Turn Undead affects eligible creatures within 20 meters (60 feet) of the character. The nearest creature is affected first and then the next nearest creature, and so on until the total number of creature Hit dice is met.

To determine the number of creatures affected, the base class level is Cleric level plus the higher of Paladin level -2 or Blackguard level -2. So a pure paladin is always equal to the sameleveled cleric -2. The total number of creature Hit dice affected is 2d6 + base class level + Charisma modifier (+ an extra 1d6 if the character has the Sun domain).

That was the number of creatures affected. Now for the highest HD touchable.

The highest creature Hit dice affected (Turn level) is the base class level modified from -4 to +4 based on a turn check of 1d20 + Charisma modifier (+ 1d4 if they have Sun Domain).

The turn check is then added to the base class level. So the highest HD that a turning character can ever reach is level +4 for clerics, level +2 for paladins.

Hope this helps clear it up a bit.

[Skywatcher]

Does anyone know who many hit dice a Revenant from Storans has?

[miltonyorkcastle]

I could look it up, but I think this illustration should work:

Let's say the undead in question has 13 HD. Clarissa (18 lvl paladin) can turn anywhere from 28-38 HD of undead with one of her attempts. Let's say six attack her. She'll never be able to turn more than two of them. Why? Because 13x2=26, but 13x3=39, which is one higher than the maximum number of HD she could possibly turn.

Now, the strongest undead Clarissa has a chance to turn is a 20 HD undead, and she could only hope to turn one of them. However, anything below 12 HD she'll turn automatically, until the total number of undead HD from the first roll is exhausted. But that's a spread.... she has a chance to turn anywhere from 12-20 HD undead. A cleric of the same level (18), yet with no charisma mod, will be able to turn 14-22 HD creatures.

Now, let's say Clarissa gets lucky on the first roll and affects a maximum amount of undead HD - 38, in her case. But she gets unlucky on the second roll, and can only affect 12 HD undead creatures. This means she wouldn't be able to turn a single 13 HD undead, despite being able to affect a total number of 38 HD. A cleric of her same level would, however, be able to affect a 13 HD undead automatically.

Now, Clarissa, the clerics you may have seen who seem to be doing a better job than Clarissa may not be able to turn as many HD at once that she can turn, but they can potentially turn more powerful undead, especially if they have the sun domain, as already mentioned.

This is a direct illustration of what Weeblie stated. It is an application of what can be found in LORE and the explanation s0ulz gave.

[Skywatcher]

Thanks.  That explains it perfectly.  Now I understand the differences.