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Author Topic: Your opinion on "powergaming"  (Read 4113 times)

ZeroVega

RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2005, 05:31:00 am »
  We all know what Powergaming is. We all know what is and isn't allowed here. And we all know what an exploit is and how to not use em.
    Don't think Powergaming is some ultra secret term that needs to be decoded by a group of geniuses in order for us to understand it. We all know what it is, we all know what's wrong, and we all should be adult enough (even us kids) not to do it. Period, No mas, The End, Fin, an all that jazz.
  Now get out there and have fun!
 

Pankoki

RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2005, 05:34:00 am »
Its kinda really simple actually.
  First of all powergaming and exploiting are two different things, one of them a bannable offense. There are plenty of well built characters out there that do not exploit and are great RPers, to those I tip my hat.
  So when you come to analyze a character out there for any trace of powergaming you look at some pretty basic stuff. Does this character's build is reflected on its RP? If the answer to that question is no, then the character is being powergamed, if its yes, then you got a well built character.
  Above someone said that they like building powerful characters. Thats all good and dandy, but if you can't back that up with a good reason for it then you are doing something tasteless and you know it. I can list a lot of good examples for this but it isn't really necessary because if you find yourself wanting to get something but you have no idea how it will fit your character then you know you are doing it.
  With that said to exploit or camp you don't need to powergame. XP loops and AI abusing come to mind. These things are just not fitting to the world.
 

Germaine Lorn

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    RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
    « Reply #22 on: May 26, 2005, 05:27:00 pm »
    Is powergaming like powerdressing but in a forest with a silly hat and a blunderbuss?
     

    Xandor Loriland

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    RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
    « Reply #23 on: May 26, 2005, 06:02:00 pm »
    I think powergaming vs RP is a matter of the heart.  When the thought crosses your mind to do something strictly to make your character stronger with no other reason you have entered the realm of the darkside.  It is tough to look at actions specifically and define them as always powergaming or not.  For instance running around in one place killing things (loops) could be considered powergaming but if you character lives in Fort Hope and is a Cleric of Aeridin he would be perfectly in character to devote himself to removing every undead from the broken forest.  I will have no undead defiling my house!!  CLEANSE THE FOREST!  Every time I get more powerfull so do they.  I must have power to destroy them!!!!!!  Power Power POWER!  Oh sorry I think I crossed the line.
     

    Aurhinius

    RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
    « Reply #24 on: May 26, 2005, 11:57:00 pm »
    Something I always found interesting about "power" characters and comments from people about them is the following - Many people talk about a well built character. I think that is the first mistake.  A character is not "built". They are not a house or a construction they are a fictional being that for all purposes has a life and feelings.  Some folks say that people that accuse people of power gaming are jealous of their characters.  I always find that one quite funny. Power characters have maximised statistic patterns. They have been calculated from initial creative to the very last stat point. They have plotted their feat progression and skill point distibution.  That imho is power gaming though I am sure some would disagree.  It does not take a genius to calculate the best character by pushing the numbers so I have nor ever will be impressed by someone that can. I can do it too, I just choose not too. If everyone power gamed you would end up with cookie cutter characters which you find people do complain about quite a bit. What they fail to realise is their mentality toward gaming makes their character that way.

    The difference between a power character and a good character is the element of creativity which tends to be minimal from the outset in a power character.  When building an RP character people think about the story then fit the stats and skills etc to it. Power characters happen in reverse and you can almost instantly tell the difference because they are focused upon the number and have it all planned completely seperate from any RP or story. They tend to have weak stories due to this.

    We've all seen the duel wielded bastard swords etc etc.  Why did that individual pick bastard swords?  because they do the most damage in combat.

    I have made some generalised statements here but for the most part they hold true.
     

    Frendh

    RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
    « Reply #25 on: May 27, 2005, 08:46:00 am »
    Well, I'm not sure, But I think the double weapons do more damage
    than dual wielding katanas/bastard/dwarven waraxe if you have high
    strength. I haven't tried it, but the double weapons are two-handed
    weapons and should logically get the two-handed strength bonus. In
    addition to that you generally save three feats with the double
    weapon too. Double weapons being Double Axe, Two-bladed sword,
    Dire mace and a couple of layo specials.

    Wanted to mention this since my char can dual wield katanas and
    it was said above "because they do the most damage in combat."
    My opinion is that dual wielding sucks unless the feats are free.
    (exceptions to the rule exist)

    As to what powergaming is I have to agree with those who said
    something along the line "calculator and schedules" to create
    the char. But I don't think it's a bad thing, unlike most
    others.

    Read the rules about exploiting, it's all good stuff to keep
    the rabble off the server. Some nice warnings too, like how
    to avoid losing your guns while mining.
     

    foxfire

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    RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
    « Reply #26 on: July 19, 2005, 12:06:00 am »
    I think doubleweapons are considered the same as dual-wielding, correct?    So you would have to train the feats anyways.

    Mei
     

    IDii

    RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
    « Reply #27 on: July 19, 2005, 12:23:00 am »
    Yep, dualweapon is just like dualwielding two weapons but the advantage (can be a disadvantage too) is that you need only one weapon instead of two.

    And you don't get the 1,5x str bonus with dualweapons like you get with two-handed weapons. Also you need the feats anyway for dualweapons. And also the secondary arm attacks like with dualwielding are made with 0,5xstr bonus to damage or whatever it was.

    Hardly ever see dualweapons in NWN, which is kinda interesting. They're not that bad really... but I guess people just think two weapons is cooler than one with two blades or maces... heh.

    Oh gah... powergaming. Well that can be seen in so many ways. To me it's playing a character the way it shouldn't be just to gain things they wouldn't normally gain.
    Like if your character loved forests and would never harm them and then they suddenly burned one town because someone gave them good armor for it. That's kinda powergaming...
    Building powerful characters and playing wth goals in mind is often called powergaming too... Dunno, I call powercharacter building minmaxing and so on...
     

    MorphlingROR

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      RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
      « Reply #28 on: July 19, 2005, 03:28:00 am »
      Quote
      IDii - 7/19/2005  10:23 AM
      Hardly ever see dualweapons in NWN, which is kinda interesting. They're not that bad really... but I guess people just think two weapons is cooler than one with two blades or maces... heh.


      There is one big disadvantage of dualweapons, that actually makes them less attractive. Sometimes you may need that extra bit of defense and to switch to using a shield and a weapon instead of two weapons. You can't really do that with a dualweapon.
       

      Ar7

      RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
      « Reply #29 on: July 19, 2005, 03:43:00 am »
      I would like to lean away a bit from the topic at hand to mention on thing. Dual weilding katanas and bastard swords is not only bad taste, but it is also impossible to pull off in real life and thus is completly unrealistic in a game enviroment.

      A katana is a two handed weapon and I have no idea why it requires only one hand in NWN. As for bastard swords, they are basically two-handed swords that are just a bit shorter. They were used by huge men either without anything else or with a shield, dual weilding them is impossible!
       

      Thunder Pants

      RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
      « Reply #30 on: July 19, 2005, 03:52:00 am »
      actually both the katana and the bastard sword are hand and a half swords, which means, that they can be wielded one handed or 2 handed, unfortunetly with nwn you arn't given the option to wield them 2 handed, though i do agree that you shouldn't be able to dual weild them (they are far too large and heavy to be able to be swung like that efectivly with out the blades getting in eachothers way) though anytime you try to impose reality into a fantasy setting you tend to quickly learn it's a lesson in futility
       

      Frendh

      RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
      « Reply #31 on: July 19, 2005, 06:48:00 am »
      Don't bundle a Katana with a bastard sword. They have nothing in common
      except for both being considered swords. And Katana is for a fact
      "commonly" used with an offhand weapon, wakisashi being it. A katana
      has generally a shorter blade than a longsword and weighs a lot less too.

      Commonly, as in comparison to how often other weapons have been dual
      wielded in RL history and present time.

      Why they have put the high damage on Katana here is because it's
      considered being a masterpiece among swords by those who made
      the game. They believe a katana is so well made that they even say in
      the BG2 series that it is so close to perfection it is hard to make it
      any better even with magic.

      If I put a handle long enough for a twohanded grip on a dagger, it doesn't
      make the dagger a big unwieldy weapon that you shouldn't be able to dual wield.
      That's basicly what AR7 and Thunder Pants are saying.

       Dual wielding katanas is far off from being bad taste.
       

      Zhofe

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      RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
      « Reply #32 on: July 19, 2005, 07:48:00 am »
      Yup, let us take a moment to thank Mushashi for one handed Katnana usage ...

      But really, it is FAR more common to see them handled with two hands.

      As for Katanas and Bastardswords being completly and utterly incomparable ... I don't buy that either. They are both crafted to be wielded with two hands, but able to be used with one should the situation arise. They are very different, but really, few swords are so far different from each other to not be comparable. If I remember correctly, Katanas are considered Masterwork Bastard Swords for all purposes by D&D rules, so as far as we are concerned in a D&D setting, they are pretty much the same.

      Really, powergaming is exploiting the system to make as powerfull as a character as you can as quickly as you can. If you are role-playing, then usually you are not powergaming. Powergaming is when the XP is more important than your character.

       

      Thunder Pants

      RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
      « Reply #33 on: July 19, 2005, 07:53:00 am »
      actually dueling any weapon that is medium sized with another medium sized weapon is not exactly what anybody consider easy, i full reality it is very difficult, hence why as you said it was common for the katana to be duelweilded with a smaller blade, the wakasashi, the reason for this is because 2 large blades (the katana does have a large blade, while being a little shorter then a long sword the blades have aproximetly the same surface area because of the katana's curve) the blades tend to get in eachothers way, which is why there is a -2 to hit penelty for weilding 2 medium sized weapons

      and in all actuality the katana is designed to be weilded with either one hand or 2, which is why i called it a hand and a half weapon

      though again as i said, NWN limitations will not let you weild either bastard swords or katana with both hands and thus they have both become single handed weapons
       

      Ar7

      RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
      « Reply #34 on: July 19, 2005, 08:03:00 am »
      Alright I am going to take some time to explain this with more attention to detail.

      First of all, bastard swords.

         A bastard sword began to appear somewhere around the 14th century. It has gotten its name because it is sort of a bastard version of the longsword and the greatsword. It has almost the lenght, the weight and the power of a greatsword, yet can be used in one hand. It was often used by cavalry, as they needed the extra lenght to reach their horseless targets. Of course they were also used by infantry, but then they needed their offhand free, as the most common way to fight with a bastard sword is shown in this pic. http://64.2.37.70/images/bastard004.gif

         A bastard sword was made for very strong men, only they were able to use them effectively. A bastard sword is a hand-and-half sword and is used in one or both hands according to a situation on the battlefield. Thus even a very strong man has his offhand free or in some cases uses a shield. There is absolutly no historical information about the usage of two bastard swords, largely due to the fact that it was not practical, not efficient and impossible above all.

      Now about the Katanas

         First of all you have to look at the armor the Japanese samurai were wearing. It resembeled the European plate armor ( please do not mistake with fullplate armor ) there were metal plates that were united with chainmail, thus they offered very good protection and were hard to pierce, unless one hit exactly between the plates. As such, most of the time the samurai used the katana in two hands. That way the weapon had a stronger punch and the samurai could defend himself better against strong blows that the opponent delivered. It is true that a katana is sometimes used with a Wakisashi or a tanto, but these cases are mostly exceptions rather than rules. Also, wakisashis were mostly ceremonial weapons that were carried by samurais with masters, they were used to take the life of the samurai itself to escape shame. They were not meant for battle, the wakisashi and the katana were worn together on the belt and were a symbol of the samurai, the showed his status.

         Secondly, most of the techniques to use the katana are now alive in a martial art called kendo, which developed out of the traditional kenjutsu. If you have ever seen or heard anything about it, then you will know that most of the time the katana is held in two hands. Do not judge the usage of the katana by the movies where people fly around and make insane stunts using katanas. Those are just movies and not the way the katanas were originally used during the medieval times.

         So yes, it is possible to use a katana with a smaller offhand weapon, but it is an exception at the very best and even then, the offhand weapon is much smaller than the katana. Nobody ever dualweilded two katanas, ever, they are too unstable for that.

         In conclusion to the above, it is bad taste to dualweild katanas and bastard swords.

       

      Ar7

      RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
      « Reply #35 on: July 19, 2005, 08:11:00 am »
      PS Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to mention something. I have a katana at home, of course I am not skilled master, but it is obvious that when you take one in each hand there is no way one can handle them effectively in battle.
       

      Diamondedge

      RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
      « Reply #36 on: July 19, 2005, 11:29:00 am »
      Back on the topic of Powergaming...

      I think 'powergaming' isn't really a great thing. But I'm one of those dwarves that has no charisma and top o' the line strength. I've justified it through RP, of course, because he's a gruff, angry little ball of hate, and he's been mining and smithing for the past century.

      I think if you can justify the stats through significant RP and RP your character that way the whole way through, it shouldn't be a massive problem.

      Also, I believe the people of Layonara should RP more while they are out hunting. Time and time again, Turor and Alayna have trotted off beside a few others, killed much stuff, and griped about every little thing along the way, pointed out how much they hate this monster, how this other monster clubbed their wagon at one point in history, or how they effectively lit this kind of monster on fire and punted it back to it's cronies as a warning at one point.

      Tumbleweed is constantly the reply. RPing during hunting is essential and I think that the server needs more of it. And don't really continue on during night time... if you see that it's nearing the dark hours, you should go to somewhere safe, and set up camp. Continue again when morning arrives; This 'camping time' gives you probably the best time for intercharacter RP. It's how characters come to really know one another.

      And for those of you intent on running about killing everything forever, it gives time for the spawns to reset so you can, in fact, continue with the killing.

      Just, don't forget the ale.
       

      foxfire

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      RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
      « Reply #37 on: July 26, 2005, 03:17:00 pm »
      I take kendo myself, so I know some about the weapon usage.  I have never seen anyone use two shinai (bamboo katana) at once, ever.  In fact it is taught in kendo not to swing using shoulder/arm strength, but to use your offhand to pivot the shinai/katana around your main hand to increase the speed of the weapon.  One of the most common mistakes for the new students is to swing the katana like a baseball bat.  The speed and strength of the weapon actually comes from the offhand, where the main hand is mainly used just to hold and position the weapon.  I do not even think it is possible for myself to attempt using two at once.  (Of course being a girl, I just don't have the hand strength)  The wakizashi (pretty much a katana shortsword) was considered a sidearm weapon, and not really for offhand use.  I am not saying it is impossible though.  With proper training, I am sure a katana can be used with the wakizashi.  That being said, my character Mei is attempting this very feat.   ;)

      Mei
       

      General_Ski

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        RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
        « Reply #38 on: July 26, 2005, 04:13:00 pm »
        First of all. Using two weapons at once is not power gaming. It's in the game and is designed as feature. On medium weapons you get a -4/-4 (with two handed fighting and ambidexterity) penalty, without those feats, it's -6/-8 or something close to that. If a medium weapon is in the offhand. This is a pain, especially on lower levels. Now, off hand in dual weapons like diremace or two-bladed sword is considered a small weapon, so with that, one gets a -2/-2 penalty and that is only if one has two-handed fighting and ambidexterity. Now improved two handed fighting gives your character a second off hand attackat a -5 penalty. Try that, you get more attacks per round, but both are less likely to hit.

         This can be very difficult at times. Those dual wielding weapons like bastard swords, anda katanas have an option to switching to one weapon and shield. Dual wielded large weapons, on the other hand do not allow that, thus a lesser penalty on them.
        But! With those increased numbers of attacks it makes sense to beef up your parry skill and get improved parry feat, this is where it balances out. If, you parry first you tend to make a better counter attack. Of course you can't always parry. You parry has to be 10 points better than the DC of incoming attack to make a counter attack. But that makes up or can make up for lost ac. Of course, if you are mobbed, well... tough luck you can only parry the number of attack you can yourself make. Expertise hurts a dual wielde much more than a fighter witha weapon and shield since instead of having -5 to hit you will have -7, with improved expertise -17. That's not too bad if you are defending. But as far as hits and damage.. Well tough luck.

        But with an improved parry of +4 it offsets the penalties on counter attack, you would otherwise be having and allows for a much better defense. Since these feats, except for ranger's case depend on dexterity and minimum needed is 16, one cannot afford to ignore their dex bonus too much. On the other hand if left at 15, one can afford to put on full plate for better protection. Lose 1 to parry, which can be made up by points in that skill.

        I do not think dual wielding in any fashion is powergaming as such becauseof dual penalties. Long swords and scimitars were dual wielded in the RL past, as well as large swords and dagger like sword breakers. With swords and swordbreakers it was a common thing in middle ages and renaissance especially during duels.
        Shields went away, leaving room to pikes and halbeards, so cavalry (heavily armed knights could be stopped), after all longbowmen had to be trained and longbows made, task is not as easy as it first seems.

        A little correction on the Japanese armor, they did indeed have full plate, but that was closer to renaissance in Europe time. Before that it was Segmented Armor (similar to that what Roman legions may have begun using around the time of Invasion of Britain, under emperor Claudius) The latin words, Lorica Segmentata, are used today, though it is not known by what name the Romans themselves used. Now that is a complex armor, almost as good as half-plate, but very high maintenance as far as the parts go, and is very complex as far as putting on that suit of armor, requiring almost ritualistic attention to detail. Thus this type of armor fell out of use, as Roman empire weakened. Scalemail and chain mail and full plate were used by those who could afford them. Now, scale mail was very vulnerable to thrusts from underneath.

         As for other armors, under armor had to be used for all types of metal armor, since even if a hit did not get through, you could get very burised up even with under armor. As for archers using leather and lighter armors, it is nearly impossible to use a bow using a heavy suit of armor. Furthermore, archers used hit a retrea/dispurse reform fire again tactics, using the terrain, forest and hill terrain providing the best defense against cavalry. Doing that in a 50 lbs suit of armor is nearly impossible, especially if one is trying to avoid a mounted rider.

        Swiss are credited with an invention of pikemen, altough theirs used a weird halberd like blade, to bring down knights in around early-mid 1300s. That's when a version of Greek phalanx was reinvented using pikes and halberds to deal with fairly unstoppable (except by longbowmen) cavalry/knight charges. The thing that defeated this phalanx this time around, was not roman legions and roman artillery (ballistas, catapults and trebuchets).

        It was eventually gunpowder weapons. In the battle of Breitenfeld in 1631, changed the course of history, protecting protestanism, as well as defined a huge change in the utilization of gunpowder weapons, as well as some innovative infantry and cavalry tactics. Probably, biggest  military innovator since Alexander the Great, Gustavus Adolphus, King of Sweden, utilized his forces to defeat the Spanish and Imperial troops (Holy Roman Empire, in case anyone's wondering, nothing really to do with actual Roman Empire), even though 40% of his own forces were defeated and Swedish camp was looted.
        That's just my 2 cents, well may be a bit more.
         

        General_Ski

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          RE: Your opinion on "powergaming"
          « Reply #39 on: July 26, 2005, 05:17:00 pm »
          One mistake in earlier post. Minimum dexterity required for ambidexterity is 15 not 16. Sorry for double post.