The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Warheart on April 12, 2005, 11:53:00 pm
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I have been here a while and I have discovered that most Players enjoy this because of the Rp here (And man the RP is at 120%).. And that is why i'm here too and I have enjoyed every minute of it. BUt I have read some of the post and it seems leveling is a bad thing because of "powergaming".. The problem is that I don't know where the limit for "powergaming" is.. I for one loves to gain a level up because think it is encouraging and is much more fun to be a bit higher level (I'm not talking epic, but about 10-12 and so)... And I have seen many groups hunting a lot (killing looting very often) and that is not a bad thing, but also here someone seems to call it "powergaming".. So where exactly does the limit go?
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This is a much debated subject and I think its one that is difficult to answer mainly because the only person who really knows if they're powergaming is the player him/herself. The reason I think that its difficult is that I've found that my characters tend to gain XP in spurts and that when they do they get a lot quickly and then relatively nothing for a week or so, so at first glance someone else might say that I've powergamed a character to gain that much xp but honestly its just been a matter of being in the right place at the right time, but then if you look at that character over a longer period you find that overall its advancement through the levels is actually pretty regualar and xp hasn't really been the motivation behind the character at all.
Your right though about levels 10 - 12 being ideal levels though...for me thats not because the character is really 'any better' but that its usually the lower level limit for the more interesting quests and plot quests.
So my answer to your question is that its very hard to say and although there have been characters on this server who have been created just to level and become more powerful they are not as common as some people seem to think, on the other hand its good that this is always debated and argued about because I think it does act as a safeguard against that sort of character becoming the majority :)
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And sometimes the player him/herself doesn't know if he/she is powergaming. I've been accused of it without knowing that I was doing it.
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In my opinion a powergamer is someone who sits down with a calculator and a leveling tool and works out what kind of character combination would make him/her the most unstoppable. Then they create that character for the sole purpose of creating the most powerful character possible. Instead of reading the history and saying, "Wow... this Paladin of Toran sounds like exactly what I envisioned my character to be like, They go if I make a Druid/Paladin/Cleric/Monk I'll OWN at level 23! Then they proceed to try and make level 23 as fast as possible.
On the other hand... even in PnP you set goals and were excited about reaching new milestones in the life of your character. The difference here is that you don't have to wait for the weekly get together with a DM to get XP for your character's growth. You can go out into the world alone or in groups and gain experience for your character. I think here is where there is a fine line between powergaming and just gaming.
For Example:
Your 13 Wizard is 20K XP from level. At the next level you get a nifty new spell. From a RP standpoint this represents a long period of study and research in order to master this new spell. When close to a break through... I think it is normal to press forward and seeing your goal in sight encourages you to try harder. So going out and spending 3 to 4 hours trying to reach your goal... is that powergaming? I think it could probably fall into that category. However depending on the approach I think it could be justified with role playing. Say... to complete your research/training you need to travel to certian locations and gather certian CNR items. The travel is sure to be fraught with danger. By doing this you could justify the experience gained... rather than doing laps through the Berghan Mountains. . .
I think maybe the real key is can you logically justify your actions with roleplaying. . . if you can then it isn't powergaming... if you can't well...
Just my two cp
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cappyra - 4/13/2005 5:32 AM
By doing this you could justify the experience gained... rather than doing laps through the Berghan Mountains. . .
I think maybe the real key is can you logically justify your actions with roleplaying. . . if you can then it isn't powergaming... if you can't well...
Just my two cp
I think these two lines hit it closest. Doing laps is powergaming. When i see a party or characters doing laps/camping a point, then the only reason they are there is for XP. This is what I cant stand seeing as a GM. Parties that I do see doing this will tend to get chase out ;)
Your actions should be justified by RP at all times, so when you go out hunting, what is the reason? if it is just to gain as much XP as possible, being an OOC figure and concept, this tends to be treading close to the line in my books. If you are desperately trying to think of RP justifications for your actions, then you really need to take a step back and consider how you are playing. This is a RP server afterall, and I think L has said many times that he has little interest in players who dont have time for RP. I know I certainly dont.
thats ny thoughts. Note I am speaking for myself, and my view of what Layo is, not the GM team or Leanthar.
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I think powergaming was best described as creating a character with the express intent of doing as much possible damage in the shortest amount of time, and also the practice I have seen on other places where people will weigh time spent vs difficulty of the monsters vs xp/coin gained, that to me is pure powergaming. Fringe aspects of this are also something I try to avoid, like swinging out of my way from Ft. Hope to Velensk to kill Ants because they are easy exp, It always makes me wonder when I see some solo person with a flaming blade that looks 'impossible' running around killing ants.
On the other hand, I've also taken part in 'laps' through areas, there are RP aspects to it as well, if you are with the right party, like a bunch of Dwarves trying to exterminate the giants from the Berhagens. But the simple fact is that though the RP might be the reason for us to be here, and something I genuinely enjoy, strive for and take part in 99% IC all the time. The game mechanics give us levels to designate progress, and we all strive for achievement.
I want to level for the following reasons:
1) More/better skills for my character, I want to be able to craft in my chosen field and RP the new possibilities that come with advancement.
2) I want to be more usefull to my party, and be better able to take care of myself. I want to be able to aid my companions when fighting does occur, and if there is nobody around that my character likes then I like to be able to gather CNR materials without fear of dying to skunks while collecting clay.
3) Higher level characters are more interesting. They are sought out, have a better idea of thier RP and characters goals and motivations, and they get to do a lot of fun things. Higher level characters are more active in the plot quests, which I think a lot of people with lower level characters are interested in, but intimidated by huge groups of higher level people, the low level folks are never (and I know there are exceptions) brought into the conversation much.
I have personally been on the recieving end of this before, when in a quest with higher level folks who are making suggestions... I would make a suggestion and it would get lost in someone elses, repeat the suggestion, have one person in a group of four tell you that it will be better to do it thier way with no discussion of any merits. Go with the high level suggestion and two people end up dead because the rest of us can't keep up with the combat that they can.
So yeah, I still don't have a character above level 9, so I don't think I qualify... but I can see why someone would want to pack on the levels in the early stages so you can participate in the advanced stages. RP is hard to maintain at times, and it is rewarding OUTSIDE the context of the game of NwN, but levels and advancement are the reward INSIDE the game, so without them Bidwick wouldn't really have as much respect for the fellow Ozymandius, Pandora would not be so attentive to learning something from the other mages she encounters and Berdin wouldn't be trying to raise peoples awareness of how important beating Blood is to them.
Bah, I am rambling now. I don't ever think we are going to all agree on what powergaming or power leveling are It's been my experience that if you encounter a group that doesn't fit your play style than avoid them... twice so far members of the group I didn't want to play with have left the world, and the remaining members have joined in the RP a lot more and are a lot of fun to RP with now.
Vyris remembers the last time this topic was broached and hope everyone stays civil.
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Shut up Vyris!!!!! Hows that for civil *evil grin* hehe just kidding, and Vy knows this.
So far all the comments on powergaming have been pretty close to what I believe. The making a character to be the toughest is in my mind powergaming.. Well unless your character rp's that. Ie a fighter wants to be the toughest because that is who they are,. A wizard wants to be powerful because that is a goal in a wizards life. That is a way to melding the nwn mechanics into the rp style.
Then there are, what I call purest rp'ers. Young master Tom. I think RikL even refuses to lvl him because of his rp, not sure but seems that way. Kudos to him. That is an actor if I have ever seen one. Ozy, who has like 4 hp's to his name, can you say wow? Granted he is very high lvl but not always. He had to rp that as he was growing. And he didn't get to be 20+ in a month or 2.
I see some people that are getting to be high lvl's and started after me and it used to bother me. But then I see some of those same players rp'ing the heck out of their chars too. SOME don't however. I think, or hope the point is to ACT. If you have a power hungry wizard than the other pc's should know that. Through rp'ing that way. Or if you have a fighter type that just wants to kill, then act that out. If you want to gain lvl's faster than everybody else, well rethink what you are trying to achieve here.
Sometimes a person just doesn't want to interact with others. That is ok in my mind. But that person needs to remember that this a community about rp'ing and using NWN to help that out. If you get to lvl 19 and want to go epic, well if the gm team doesnt even know your char it is going to be very difficult to get the go ahead. I have been in a non interactive mood and I will rp that my ranger needs to be alone in the forests. Or if my real life work schedule prevents me from playing I will rp that Cole has been in the forests thinking about things.
The problem with this post is that the people who comment are the ones who view powergaming as a bad thig. The so called powergamers will not care to comment. If you are concerned that you might be a powergamer then you probally are not one. Atleast not flagrently. If you are worried then take the extra time and force your chars personality out. Make m\\y char walk away thinking, "what a powerhungry wizard he/she is. I will need to watch my step around hin/her, as he/she might leave me out for dry if it gives him a chance at gaining more power." If my character says that it is not a bad thing for the PC. It shows that his/her rp is showing and I, as a player, am usually impressed.
as said before these are just our own thoughts on the subject. And I hope that it shows some that are worried that they might be powergaming that they arn't. As long as your pc's personality shows you are doing good.
Etinfall
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Thanks all for good replies.. And etinfall, I'm not worried ;) ... I just wanted to hear (read in this case) what others think pwergaming are.. I RP my characters to the best of my capabilities and build them I feel they would.. But I have seen some extreme cases where just taking power attack feat is powergaming and I was pretty unsure how this server felt about it.
And to take it to that, this is the best server I have ever seen. Plenty to do than just killing monsters and allways players to interact with.. This is what I have been looking for.. So sorry if I brought up a harsh subject guys..'
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There are so many differing definitions for "powergamer", aren't there? The players who crunch the numbers and strive to make that perfect character I label as min-maxers. Powergamers can be and usually are min-maxers, as well as "hoarders", which are players who strive to do anything to have the best equipment, most money through any means possible, including cheating. Min-maxing, by definition, has to include "hoarding", to get the best possible stats.
Power-gamers, on the other hand, are people who can and often do ruin a good PnP session because of their lust for, ironically enough, more power. This "power" can come in many forms. As I said, most power-gamers are also min-maxers and/or hoarders. That special little item that'll raise your attribute by another point is power manifest. I had a terrific game PnP campaign of Desert of Desolation ruined because our cleric wanted to level up in an oasis but was denied by the dm since there was no way for him to train that level there. DoD has a little bit of time constraint and this guy wasn't satisfied with the dm's denial so decided his cleric would go back to the starting city to level up. Game over. Leveling up is another expression of power and if abused, like above, then you're powergaming. It so happens this guy was also a hoarder but not much of a min-maxer. He made creative enough characters but they were all greedy to the point of absurdity (and suicide). His roleplaying sucked pretty badly, too.
That's just my take on it. I agree with others though. If there is no justifiable way to rp something you've done, then you're abusing the true intent of the game and probably a bad rper to begin with.
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Remember guys, this thread is your opinion.. I am confident in my abilities as a good RP'er, but as said before I have had many run ins with powergaming on other servers and I felt that I had to ask what this lovely community tought of it..
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I personally don't see a problem with "powergaming", to a certain extent. I can honestly admit that when I build a character, I do so with full intentions of making a powerbuild. I enjoy being creative in the feats I take, and the specific order of the classes and levels that I take to maximize what i can accomplish. And if another powerbuild were to try to PK me, I would smash them every time, because i'm an incredible character creator (i'm so modest). I have no problem admitting any of this.
However, I am also one of the most serious Role-players around. i do not powerbuild because I want to go around PKing everyone in sight to try to take control, or because i'm a big fan of hack and slash in nwn, I do so because in my opinion, making a great character build gives you more pride in what you're doing, and in my particular situation, it encourages me to be a better role-player. The character that I normally play, Genova, is a spy, among many other things. Knowing that I have built her to have a huge hide skill check much higher then most of the best of rouges and shadowdancers, and the power to take out anyone who tries to get in my way, is a big part of who she is in the RP world. If she were a crappy snoop who got beat up every time she got busted doing what it is that she does, it would be absolutly no fun for me to play her.
Since there is no PKing allowed on this server, I really don't see what the problem with a good powerbuild is. As long as people aren't taking advantage of their power, and their build is relevant to their character personality, then it should be just as fair as the next character.
But hey, that's just my opinion, and it's easily debatable.
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I dunno, a Hill hound has 2-3 int and must be around 2-300 hp... Those puppies are power gaming! I tried to talk to one and you know what it did? It bit me and tried to take my gold! Luckily I think it misclicked on my inventory slot, only got half of me shinies.
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i stand corrected ^_____^
Down with powergaming!
...wait, what?
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If any of you get the reference of the next little blurb I'm about to slightly alter... you ARE an old timer to one of the formerly most entertaining gaming mags ever printed...
"We gotta talk to this hellhound!", the fighter says to the cleric.
"Are you nuts!", says the pointy-hatted geek.
"The last monster we tried talking to ate half the party", replied the cleric.
"Still...", answered the fighter, as he neared the hellhound with sword sheathed in a gesture of supplication.
Yes, please regard anything you ever read in any response to a forum question or blog as personal opinion or you're an idiot. That is, of course of course, another personal opinion.
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there really isn't anything to say that people who powergame can't roleplay, there are meny people here that it can be said of them that they powergame, but they are also great roleplayers
powergamng has become a bit of a dirty word due to the use of it in the terms of exploitive playing
a person who is only 20 hours a day and is always on the movie either crafting, hunting or gathering can be considered a power gamer, but there isn't anything that says he can't roleplay while he does these things, IDii, GhostWhoWalks, and Ozy are all prime examples of this
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I like to consider myself goal oriented. Heh.
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(Remember - I didnt read all of the posts........)
I agree with Thunder Pants + remember the outside factors:
Me for instance:
Weeksdays: I can only play 1 or 2 - around 2 hours so if i want to keep up with my mates..well...
Weekends: If I get the change to play in the weekend and more than a few hours..then I REALLY do something about the RP.
So dont judge people right away... ;)
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I would also agree with Thunder Pants. I myself, like Varka wrote about himself, can't play for hours every day, so for me it is really hard to keep up with the people I know, so I join on hunting trips to where-ever. We say we will see what happens here or there or we will cleanse an area and so on (so we have a decent RP reason to go there), but it basically comes down to xp hunting in the end as I see it, so perhaps that makes me a power-gamer, but still I take every opportunity on these trips and when-ever the opportunity arises to do some RP, telling a story, a poem, or just talking (too much talking if you ask some ;) ) anyways what I'm trying to say is that in my opinion powergamers are people who exploits a system and find the loop-holes. Making a good character build or gaining lots of xp (of course depending on how it is done) is not real power-gaming, but things like "i'll take one level of this class so that later I can do this and get this feat and become all-powerful ruler of the universe and all the hells" is of course going too far. I believe someone wrote earlier that if you make a good build then you will take more pride in you char (correct me if I'm wrong, short term memory not what it used to be ;) ) To this I will just add that also chars with bad builds can be great. From my PnP days I still recall one of my most memorable chars to be a char with not a score above 13 I think, he was not good at anything but he was still my favourite char to play, so stats and feat doesn't always matter, but then again that is a matter of opinion. Well I think that was all for now hehe Have a nice weekend Meizter
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Personally... heh... as I've already stressed, anyone who would override their usual "powergaming" in the name of rping really isn't a powergamer but, simply, just another rper. If role-playing is more important than other considerations than that person deserves the ultimate benefit of doubt in judgement and should be met with equal glee in the joy of role-playing. Keep on role-playing no matter what and resistance will whither to your will and role-playing will persevere (sp? too lazy to check now). Peace out.
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Murgleys - 4/15/2005 2:24 PM
Keep on role-playing no matter what and resistance will whither to your will and role-playing will persevere
Well said
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We all know what Powergaming is. We all know what is and isn't allowed here. And we all know what an exploit is and how to not use em.
Don't think Powergaming is some ultra secret term that needs to be decoded by a group of geniuses in order for us to understand it. We all know what it is, we all know what's wrong, and we all should be adult enough (even us kids) not to do it. Period, No mas, The End, Fin, an all that jazz.
Now get out there and have fun!
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Its kinda really simple actually.
First of all powergaming and exploiting are two different things, one of them a bannable offense. There are plenty of well built characters out there that do not exploit and are great RPers, to those I tip my hat.
So when you come to analyze a character out there for any trace of powergaming you look at some pretty basic stuff. Does this character's build is reflected on its RP? If the answer to that question is no, then the character is being powergamed, if its yes, then you got a well built character.
Above someone said that they like building powerful characters. Thats all good and dandy, but if you can't back that up with a good reason for it then you are doing something tasteless and you know it. I can list a lot of good examples for this but it isn't really necessary because if you find yourself wanting to get something but you have no idea how it will fit your character then you know you are doing it.
With that said to exploit or camp you don't need to powergame. XP loops and AI abusing come to mind. These things are just not fitting to the world.
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Is powergaming like powerdressing but in a forest with a silly hat and a blunderbuss?
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I think powergaming vs RP is a matter of the heart. When the thought crosses your mind to do something strictly to make your character stronger with no other reason you have entered the realm of the darkside. It is tough to look at actions specifically and define them as always powergaming or not. For instance running around in one place killing things (loops) could be considered powergaming but if you character lives in Fort Hope and is a Cleric of Aeridin he would be perfectly in character to devote himself to removing every undead from the broken forest. I will have no undead defiling my house!! CLEANSE THE FOREST! Every time I get more powerfull so do they. I must have power to destroy them!!!!!! Power Power POWER! Oh sorry I think I crossed the line.
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Something I always found interesting about "power" characters and comments from people about them is the following - Many people talk about a well built character. I think that is the first mistake. A character is not "built". They are not a house or a construction they are a fictional being that for all purposes has a life and feelings. Some folks say that people that accuse people of power gaming are jealous of their characters. I always find that one quite funny. Power characters have maximised statistic patterns. They have been calculated from initial creative to the very last stat point. They have plotted their feat progression and skill point distibution. That imho is power gaming though I am sure some would disagree. It does not take a genius to calculate the best character by pushing the numbers so I have nor ever will be impressed by someone that can. I can do it too, I just choose not too. If everyone power gamed you would end up with cookie cutter characters which you find people do complain about quite a bit. What they fail to realise is their mentality toward gaming makes their character that way.
The difference between a power character and a good character is the element of creativity which tends to be minimal from the outset in a power character. When building an RP character people think about the story then fit the stats and skills etc to it. Power characters happen in reverse and you can almost instantly tell the difference because they are focused upon the number and have it all planned completely seperate from any RP or story. They tend to have weak stories due to this.
We've all seen the duel wielded bastard swords etc etc. Why did that individual pick bastard swords? because they do the most damage in combat.
I have made some generalised statements here but for the most part they hold true.
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Well, I'm not sure, But I think the double weapons do more damage
than dual wielding katanas/bastard/dwarven waraxe if you have high
strength. I haven't tried it, but the double weapons are two-handed
weapons and should logically get the two-handed strength bonus. In
addition to that you generally save three feats with the double
weapon too. Double weapons being Double Axe, Two-bladed sword,
Dire mace and a couple of layo specials.
Wanted to mention this since my char can dual wield katanas and
it was said above "because they do the most damage in combat."
My opinion is that dual wielding sucks unless the feats are free.
(exceptions to the rule exist)
As to what powergaming is I have to agree with those who said
something along the line "calculator and schedules" to create
the char. But I don't think it's a bad thing, unlike most
others.
Read the rules about exploiting, it's all good stuff to keep
the rabble off the server. Some nice warnings too, like how
to avoid losing your guns while mining.
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I think doubleweapons are considered the same as dual-wielding, correct? So you would have to train the feats anyways.
Mei
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Yep, dualweapon is just like dualwielding two weapons but the advantage (can be a disadvantage too) is that you need only one weapon instead of two.
And you don't get the 1,5x str bonus with dualweapons like you get with two-handed weapons. Also you need the feats anyway for dualweapons. And also the secondary arm attacks like with dualwielding are made with 0,5xstr bonus to damage or whatever it was.
Hardly ever see dualweapons in NWN, which is kinda interesting. They're not that bad really... but I guess people just think two weapons is cooler than one with two blades or maces... heh.
Oh gah... powergaming. Well that can be seen in so many ways. To me it's playing a character the way it shouldn't be just to gain things they wouldn't normally gain.
Like if your character loved forests and would never harm them and then they suddenly burned one town because someone gave them good armor for it. That's kinda powergaming...
Building powerful characters and playing wth goals in mind is often called powergaming too... Dunno, I call powercharacter building minmaxing and so on...
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IDii - 7/19/2005 10:23 AM
Hardly ever see dualweapons in NWN, which is kinda interesting. They're not that bad really... but I guess people just think two weapons is cooler than one with two blades or maces... heh.
There is one big disadvantage of dualweapons, that actually makes them less attractive. Sometimes you may need that extra bit of defense and to switch to using a shield and a weapon instead of two weapons. You can't really do that with a dualweapon.
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I would like to lean away a bit from the topic at hand to mention on thing. Dual weilding katanas and bastard swords is not only bad taste, but it is also impossible to pull off in real life and thus is completly unrealistic in a game enviroment.
A katana is a two handed weapon and I have no idea why it requires only one hand in NWN. As for bastard swords, they are basically two-handed swords that are just a bit shorter. They were used by huge men either without anything else or with a shield, dual weilding them is impossible!
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actually both the katana and the bastard sword are hand and a half swords, which means, that they can be wielded one handed or 2 handed, unfortunetly with nwn you arn't given the option to wield them 2 handed, though i do agree that you shouldn't be able to dual weild them (they are far too large and heavy to be able to be swung like that efectivly with out the blades getting in eachothers way) though anytime you try to impose reality into a fantasy setting you tend to quickly learn it's a lesson in futility
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Don't bundle a Katana with a bastard sword. They have nothing in common
except for both being considered swords. And Katana is for a fact
"commonly" used with an offhand weapon, wakisashi being it. A katana
has generally a shorter blade than a longsword and weighs a lot less too.
Commonly, as in comparison to how often other weapons have been dual
wielded in RL history and present time.
Why they have put the high damage on Katana here is because it's
considered being a masterpiece among swords by those who made
the game. They believe a katana is so well made that they even say in
the BG2 series that it is so close to perfection it is hard to make it
any better even with magic.
If I put a handle long enough for a twohanded grip on a dagger, it doesn't
make the dagger a big unwieldy weapon that you shouldn't be able to dual wield.
That's basicly what AR7 and Thunder Pants are saying.
Dual wielding katanas is far off from being bad taste.
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Yup, let us take a moment to thank Mushashi for one handed Katnana usage ...
But really, it is FAR more common to see them handled with two hands.
As for Katanas and Bastardswords being completly and utterly incomparable ... I don't buy that either. They are both crafted to be wielded with two hands, but able to be used with one should the situation arise. They are very different, but really, few swords are so far different from each other to not be comparable. If I remember correctly, Katanas are considered Masterwork Bastard Swords for all purposes by D&D rules, so as far as we are concerned in a D&D setting, they are pretty much the same.
Really, powergaming is exploiting the system to make as powerfull as a character as you can as quickly as you can. If you are role-playing, then usually you are not powergaming. Powergaming is when the XP is more important than your character.
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actually dueling any weapon that is medium sized with another medium sized weapon is not exactly what anybody consider easy, i full reality it is very difficult, hence why as you said it was common for the katana to be duelweilded with a smaller blade, the wakasashi, the reason for this is because 2 large blades (the katana does have a large blade, while being a little shorter then a long sword the blades have aproximetly the same surface area because of the katana's curve) the blades tend to get in eachothers way, which is why there is a -2 to hit penelty for weilding 2 medium sized weapons
and in all actuality the katana is designed to be weilded with either one hand or 2, which is why i called it a hand and a half weapon
though again as i said, NWN limitations will not let you weild either bastard swords or katana with both hands and thus they have both become single handed weapons
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Alright I am going to take some time to explain this with more attention to detail.
First of all, bastard swords.
A bastard sword began to appear somewhere around the 14th century. It has gotten its name because it is sort of a bastard version of the longsword and the greatsword. It has almost the lenght, the weight and the power of a greatsword, yet can be used in one hand. It was often used by cavalry, as they needed the extra lenght to reach their horseless targets. Of course they were also used by infantry, but then they needed their offhand free, as the most common way to fight with a bastard sword is shown in this pic. http://64.2.37.70/images/bastard004.gif
A bastard sword was made for very strong men, only they were able to use them effectively. A bastard sword is a hand-and-half sword and is used in one or both hands according to a situation on the battlefield. Thus even a very strong man has his offhand free or in some cases uses a shield. There is absolutly no historical information about the usage of two bastard swords, largely due to the fact that it was not practical, not efficient and impossible above all.
Now about the Katanas
First of all you have to look at the armor the Japanese samurai were wearing. It resembeled the European plate armor ( please do not mistake with fullplate armor ) there were metal plates that were united with chainmail, thus they offered very good protection and were hard to pierce, unless one hit exactly between the plates. As such, most of the time the samurai used the katana in two hands. That way the weapon had a stronger punch and the samurai could defend himself better against strong blows that the opponent delivered. It is true that a katana is sometimes used with a Wakisashi or a tanto, but these cases are mostly exceptions rather than rules. Also, wakisashis were mostly ceremonial weapons that were carried by samurais with masters, they were used to take the life of the samurai itself to escape shame. They were not meant for battle, the wakisashi and the katana were worn together on the belt and were a symbol of the samurai, the showed his status.
Secondly, most of the techniques to use the katana are now alive in a martial art called kendo, which developed out of the traditional kenjutsu. If you have ever seen or heard anything about it, then you will know that most of the time the katana is held in two hands. Do not judge the usage of the katana by the movies where people fly around and make insane stunts using katanas. Those are just movies and not the way the katanas were originally used during the medieval times.
So yes, it is possible to use a katana with a smaller offhand weapon, but it is an exception at the very best and even then, the offhand weapon is much smaller than the katana. Nobody ever dualweilded two katanas, ever, they are too unstable for that.
In conclusion to the above, it is bad taste to dualweild katanas and bastard swords.
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PS Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to mention something. I have a katana at home, of course I am not skilled master, but it is obvious that when you take one in each hand there is no way one can handle them effectively in battle.
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Back on the topic of Powergaming...
I think 'powergaming' isn't really a great thing. But I'm one of those dwarves that has no charisma and top o' the line strength. I've justified it through RP, of course, because he's a gruff, angry little ball of hate, and he's been mining and smithing for the past century.
I think if you can justify the stats through significant RP and RP your character that way the whole way through, it shouldn't be a massive problem.
Also, I believe the people of Layonara should RP more while they are out hunting. Time and time again, Turor and Alayna have trotted off beside a few others, killed much stuff, and griped about every little thing along the way, pointed out how much they hate this monster, how this other monster clubbed their wagon at one point in history, or how they effectively lit this kind of monster on fire and punted it back to it's cronies as a warning at one point.
Tumbleweed is constantly the reply. RPing during hunting is essential and I think that the server needs more of it. And don't really continue on during night time... if you see that it's nearing the dark hours, you should go to somewhere safe, and set up camp. Continue again when morning arrives; This 'camping time' gives you probably the best time for intercharacter RP. It's how characters come to really know one another.
And for those of you intent on running about killing everything forever, it gives time for the spawns to reset so you can, in fact, continue with the killing.
Just, don't forget the ale.
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I take kendo myself, so I know some about the weapon usage. I have never seen anyone use two shinai (bamboo katana) at once, ever. In fact it is taught in kendo not to swing using shoulder/arm strength, but to use your offhand to pivot the shinai/katana around your main hand to increase the speed of the weapon. One of the most common mistakes for the new students is to swing the katana like a baseball bat. The speed and strength of the weapon actually comes from the offhand, where the main hand is mainly used just to hold and position the weapon. I do not even think it is possible for myself to attempt using two at once. (Of course being a girl, I just don't have the hand strength) The wakizashi (pretty much a katana shortsword) was considered a sidearm weapon, and not really for offhand use. I am not saying it is impossible though. With proper training, I am sure a katana can be used with the wakizashi. That being said, my character Mei is attempting this very feat. ;)
Mei
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First of all. Using two weapons at once is not power gaming. It's in the game and is designed as feature. On medium weapons you get a -4/-4 (with two handed fighting and ambidexterity) penalty, without those feats, it's -6/-8 or something close to that. If a medium weapon is in the offhand. This is a pain, especially on lower levels. Now, off hand in dual weapons like diremace or two-bladed sword is considered a small weapon, so with that, one gets a -2/-2 penalty and that is only if one has two-handed fighting and ambidexterity. Now improved two handed fighting gives your character a second off hand attackat a -5 penalty. Try that, you get more attacks per round, but both are less likely to hit.
This can be very difficult at times. Those dual wielding weapons like bastard swords, anda katanas have an option to switching to one weapon and shield. Dual wielded large weapons, on the other hand do not allow that, thus a lesser penalty on them.
But! With those increased numbers of attacks it makes sense to beef up your parry skill and get improved parry feat, this is where it balances out. If, you parry first you tend to make a better counter attack. Of course you can't always parry. You parry has to be 10 points better than the DC of incoming attack to make a counter attack. But that makes up or can make up for lost ac. Of course, if you are mobbed, well... tough luck you can only parry the number of attack you can yourself make. Expertise hurts a dual wielde much more than a fighter witha weapon and shield since instead of having -5 to hit you will have -7, with improved expertise -17. That's not too bad if you are defending. But as far as hits and damage.. Well tough luck.
But with an improved parry of +4 it offsets the penalties on counter attack, you would otherwise be having and allows for a much better defense. Since these feats, except for ranger's case depend on dexterity and minimum needed is 16, one cannot afford to ignore their dex bonus too much. On the other hand if left at 15, one can afford to put on full plate for better protection. Lose 1 to parry, which can be made up by points in that skill.
I do not think dual wielding in any fashion is powergaming as such becauseof dual penalties. Long swords and scimitars were dual wielded in the RL past, as well as large swords and dagger like sword breakers. With swords and swordbreakers it was a common thing in middle ages and renaissance especially during duels.
Shields went away, leaving room to pikes and halbeards, so cavalry (heavily armed knights could be stopped), after all longbowmen had to be trained and longbows made, task is not as easy as it first seems.
A little correction on the Japanese armor, they did indeed have full plate, but that was closer to renaissance in Europe time. Before that it was Segmented Armor (similar to that what Roman legions may have begun using around the time of Invasion of Britain, under emperor Claudius) The latin words, Lorica Segmentata, are used today, though it is not known by what name the Romans themselves used. Now that is a complex armor, almost as good as half-plate, but very high maintenance as far as the parts go, and is very complex as far as putting on that suit of armor, requiring almost ritualistic attention to detail. Thus this type of armor fell out of use, as Roman empire weakened. Scalemail and chain mail and full plate were used by those who could afford them. Now, scale mail was very vulnerable to thrusts from underneath.
As for other armors, under armor had to be used for all types of metal armor, since even if a hit did not get through, you could get very burised up even with under armor. As for archers using leather and lighter armors, it is nearly impossible to use a bow using a heavy suit of armor. Furthermore, archers used hit a retrea/dispurse reform fire again tactics, using the terrain, forest and hill terrain providing the best defense against cavalry. Doing that in a 50 lbs suit of armor is nearly impossible, especially if one is trying to avoid a mounted rider.
Swiss are credited with an invention of pikemen, altough theirs used a weird halberd like blade, to bring down knights in around early-mid 1300s. That's when a version of Greek phalanx was reinvented using pikes and halberds to deal with fairly unstoppable (except by longbowmen) cavalry/knight charges. The thing that defeated this phalanx this time around, was not roman legions and roman artillery (ballistas, catapults and trebuchets).
It was eventually gunpowder weapons. In the battle of Breitenfeld in 1631, changed the course of history, protecting protestanism, as well as defined a huge change in the utilization of gunpowder weapons, as well as some innovative infantry and cavalry tactics. Probably, biggest military innovator since Alexander the Great, Gustavus Adolphus, King of Sweden, utilized his forces to defeat the Spanish and Imperial troops (Holy Roman Empire, in case anyone's wondering, nothing really to do with actual Roman Empire), even though 40% of his own forces were defeated and Swedish camp was looted.
That's just my 2 cents, well may be a bit more.
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One mistake in earlier post. Minimum dexterity required for ambidexterity is 15 not 16. Sorry for double post.