The World of Layonara

NWN Discussions and Suggestions => Implemented Ideas => Topic started by: orth on January 27, 2015, 11:09:49 am

Title: Server Status
Post by: orth on January 27, 2015, 11:09:49 am
A thought occurred ... *watches as people duck for cover* I know GMs get additional information when looking at the server status re locations of characters, deity info, level splits, etc ... and also when a GMN is on a server. Is there any reason why this is not shown to players? I know players can see when GMs are on at the login screen but maybe, for some folks, the decision to play Layo (or pursue some other activity) is made when checking the server status. People might be more inclined to jump in-game when a GM is online thinking there is at least some chance of GM interaction? You can come out from cover now. *waits until Dorg has left whatever shelter he'd been hiding behind* Ha! Fooled ya! I also want poison duration extended further! :)
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Alatriel on October 10, 2010, 08:06:04 am
Actually, regarding server status, I would like to see all levels and classes removed.  I would like CR's removed from the examine feature as well.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Script Wrecked on October 10, 2010, 10:20:14 am
Quote from: Alatriel
I would like CR's removed from the examine feature as well.


So we can die more often? :p
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: RollinsCat on October 10, 2010, 10:35:10 am
Quote from: Script Wrecked
So we can die more often? :p


*grins* My first thought but on consideration I think she means from pc cons only (am I right?).

I could get behind removing the color/status from the con of other players, to break down the barriers for those people who might in the back of their mind think "they're too high level for me".

but removing them from creatures bad. bad bad!

as far as adding/removing information from server status, it depends on your playstyle and whether you're in the mood for a group or in the mood for rp or whatever, so I'm meh on it. I like seeing class and numbers myself.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Alatriel on October 10, 2010, 11:45:25 am
no, actually I want them removed from everywhere.  If it means you die more often... *shrugs*  if it means you solo less often... that would be good.  If you don't know how hard things are anymore before you attack them, then you take less risks, and take out a party.  Also, I want the list of buffs removed from the examine features.  I don't think people should be able to examine things and know exactly which spells they have cast on them, if they've got low stats, etc.  I think removing these things would make it so you would have to rp things out more rather than just using mechanical knowledge as ic knowledge.


but yes, also from PC's.  Because it would cut down on players rping levels instead of rping their characters.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: RollinsCat on October 10, 2010, 12:09:07 pm
respectfully, can't agree with removing cons from mobs.  It's a nice idea in an ideal game world but there are some realities to this server that make that (to me) a losing proposition:

-server populations are the lowest I've seen it since I joined; finding a group is difficult enough

-it would encourage drafting lower players onto more powerful ones to avoid death

-we already have a division of attitudes about "adventuring" (bashing).  lots of discouragement for this style of play, as I feel it anyway, and making it that much harder would drive away good roleplayers who just happen to like it.

-soul strands.  players with a bad luck streak won't have time to settle into their characters before they're close to perming, if they adventure at all

-solo exploration.  without invis or sneak, who's going to take the chance?  losing that would make the efforts of the team who worked so hard on these areas wasted time.

Soloing gets a bad name over and over, but for some, it's not a choice - it's a reality.  remove the little safety net the con gives them and you'll risk losing them too.

removing cons from mobs would push the game closer to being Second Life with gm interaction and without the fancy graphics, but not everyone wants that out of the game.  so perhaps that will be possible in the future game?  but right now, I maintain it's a bad idea.

my two true anyway!
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Hellblazer on October 10, 2010, 12:25:28 pm
Quote from: Alatriel
no, actually I want them removed from everywhere.  If it means you die more often... *shrugs*  if it means you solo less often... that would be good.  If you don't know how hard things are anymore before you attack them, then you take less risks, and take out a party.  Also, I want the list of buffs removed from the examine features.  I don't think people should be able to examine things and know exactly which spells they have cast on them, if they've got low stats, etc.  I think removing these things would make it so you would have to rp things out more rather than just using mechanical knowledge as ic knowledge.


but yes, also from PC's.  Because it would cut down on players rping levels instead of rping their characters.


The bio cards that you can look at in game for NPC are skewed anyways. Things that are written as easy can easily kill you. Example. You go around with your fighter level 30 and stumble upon a npc mage of level 18. Although you don't know the level of the mage the card says easy, but boom wail.. dead.. And then again, Woohoo, were a good group. 3 rogues, 2 fighters, a mage.. no clerics cause none in game.. hey it's an easy prey.. TPK few SS etc etc etc etc.

As it was said by the gms before, the cards are not reliable. And that's pretty much hard coded into the engine I think. I have never seen any information anywhere that those could be taken out.

Taking the levels and the classes out of the server status page wont stop people from going on lore to see the class. and you will see an even greater dose of metagaming going through tells. People saying. hey what class are you? yeah great let's meet there and do this and that. So in the end it wont change a thing.

And in the end you will have more people winning about it, asking for refunds etc, if you could take that information out. Pretty much would mean a lot more work for the team overall.

I'd rather see more quests, more player driven events, more story tellers night, balls, more impromptus. Than trying to mechanically force a false sense of rp down on people. Cause people who don't want to rp, will find ways not to anyway. And to others, there's time when they need more rp, other times more time to do other stuff, even more so when the server population is dwindling steadily.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Script Wrecked on October 10, 2010, 08:21:46 pm
Quote from: Alatriel
no, actually I want them removed from everywhere.  If it means you die more often... *shrugs*  if it means you solo less often... that would be good.


Because soloing is evil and must be stamped out. We wouldn't want a person who logs on when there's nobody else about to hang around and have fun. That would be wrong.

Quote from: Alatriel
If you don't know how hard things are anymore before you attack them, then you take less risks, and take out a party.


That's a fallacy; being in a party doesn't stop you from being wiped out if you don't know the risk involved.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Alatriel on October 10, 2010, 08:29:57 pm
Hey guys- chill out.  Just because I said I wanted it didn't mean I thought any of you would agree.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: RollinsCat on October 10, 2010, 08:41:13 pm
Hey, I'm all for taking the con off pcs.  I think it's a great idea and would help new players feel less intimidated maybe.

oh - and sorry Pseudonym. total derail here...
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Pseudonym on October 10, 2010, 08:43:21 pm
Far be it for the good folk of Layonara to obfuscate an issue with beside-the-point thoughts and arguments ... my request was for GM presence to be added to the server status. That was it.

Peace!

Also, I did have a thought re poison duration but i'll save that for a separate thread.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Acacea on October 10, 2010, 09:54:01 pm
I'm kind of torn on the GM thing, and think I might end up in the minority in terms of why. It's the same reason I am kind of uncomfortable with the whole "sign up for impromptus" type of list. I don't like the thought of the opposite effect, which is the exclusion factor. Should I also look for a GM to be on, in order to catch those that now refuse to log on until some poor soul is setting up for his quest and they all flock hungrily? What about when a GM is monitoring something or just doing testing? Does everyone now log off disappointed when nothing bada big boom occurs when the GM is the only reason they came on?

I dunno. On the other hand, it's really not all that different from them showing up on the log-in screen. I'm just kind of meh on the reasons for it and wonder if people really start waiting for a gamemaster to be on before logging in, will it then also hurt the chances of casual hookups and player event attendance even more than they are already damaged. *wobbles hand* Dunno.

I don't think I really care enough to say no, so why not. It's possible that someone logging on in hopes of DM interaction could promote casual hookups instead of the opposite, just by virtue of them being online, but I don't like the thought of people getting carried away and sending tells to team members who might be doing other things asking if they've got anything planned. Twenty people each doing it one time in the space of fifteen minutes could get pretty aggravating.

I think I would just leave it to the DM team to decide if they want to be advertised or not - if it would have a negative effect on their logging in, by say making them not want to log in if they're not sure they can run something (instead of being able to poke around and do something on the fly), then it might have the opposite effect than intended. Whatever helps their DMing environment and makes them comfortable in trying stuff out should be the winner, I think. If that's full disclosure, awesome. If it's being able to be camouflaged and get used to stuff and practice/decide, or to have a toggle to become incognito, still cool.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: RollinsCat on October 10, 2010, 10:16:33 pm
*points down*

spoken more eloquently (and with far better punctuation) but my thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Alatriel on October 10, 2010, 11:16:16 pm
Sorry Pseud.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Lord Dark on October 11, 2010, 01:19:23 am
It would take out the surprise! If you look at some of the GM involved kudos for RP thread, some of it is there because the players were taken by surprise by the interaction and it added something to their time of playing.

I do like the way Acacea added in that a GM might be on just to practice or test something, the adding of the GM's to the server status may cause a little bit of dread to the GM's who were logging in because they might be worried that they would have to turn down a request for attention. It's hard to turn down someone who's hopeful. And one other thing besides the dampening of surprise is that players may burn out with all the impromptus, that some players may be inclined stop going to planned quests and events because they get GM attention more often.

Up to the GM's, though!
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Pseudonym on October 11, 2010, 01:42:13 am
Quote from: Acacea
.... if people really start waiting for a gamemaster to be on before logging in, will it then also hurt the chances of casual hookups and player event attendance even more than they are already damaged. *wobbles hand* Dunno. ....


I hear what you're saying, I guess I am looking from the AEST perspective where it is pretty much impossible to actually worsen this situation.

Quote from: Alatriel
Sorry Pseud.


No apology necessary. I was just looking for an opportunity to use the word 'obfuscate'. With darkstorme around, I suffer from a bad case of linguistics-envy and try to pepper my speech with as many multi-syllabic words as possible. Even when it is malapropos I am now attempting to be magniloquent.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: mixafix on October 11, 2010, 03:39:39 am
Get back to work would ya
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: darkstorme on October 11, 2010, 03:42:02 am
Quote from: Pseudonym
No apology necessary. I was just looking for an opportunity to use the word 'obfuscate'. With darkstorme around, I suffer from a bad case of linguistics-envy and try to pepper my speech with as many multi-syllabic words as possible. Even when it is malapropos I am now attempting to be magniloquent.


Alas, even at your most grandiloquent, you are at best a Camp IV to my summit.  *smiles complacently*

On the original topic of the thread, I would tend to agree with Lord Dark and Acacea w/r to pretty much everything said.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Dezza on October 11, 2010, 07:38:14 am
If I may interject from a GM perspective. :)

Being as how there are so few active quest GM's, I must say that when on as GM, once PC's on the server are aware of there being a GM on its amazing how suddenly the RP values triple and everyones using party chat.

Two or three calendered sessions ago I think it was I was trying to run an event for a player outside of my usual timezones. I was asked by no less than 3 players within 10 minutes of starting the event, I didnt know all that well if 'I have time could I run something for them'. This straight away says to me that even in timezones where GM's are supposed to be these people are still not getting any love.

Its clear that players no longer get the level of gm basic interaction it suggests they might get when they come to layo. We have a lot of GM's its true, but most are either inactive and yet still a GM, or working on other projects such as the MMP or Lore, or active and just not erm...active. That leaves a minority of us trying to deal with a majority of stuff for players in game.

If there were more in gameactually active quest GM's I would say yes to Pseudo's idea, no worries at all. But the way things currently stand, from my own GM perspective, I don't want anymore work than I already have. Yes, it's finally come to that, I hate to say it, but it has.

Put simply, there needs to be more active, in game quest GM's for Pseudo's idea to have any merit. Until that happens it will only mean the few of us left doing stuff won't log in anymore for fear of being bombarded with requests.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Carillon on October 11, 2010, 04:55:51 pm
I agree with Dezza's assessment of how knowledge of a GM's presence online affects roleplay. I do feel like GMs might become cynical about the underlying motive of roleplay once their presence was easily accessible public knowledge that you could obtain while still online. And if they did become cynical about the great roleplay they were seeing, I think that would really hurt the community overall.

Another concern I have likely does not apply to the vast majority of the people who will read this thread. I do believe that most of our playerbase is quite honest and respects the rules. That said, many of our rules came from an instance where someone abused something, and I am concerned about how abuse of certain situations could increase, should players be able to know definitively that a GM was not watching them. If with a simple click of the server status refresh button you could determine there was no GM online to catch you doing it, how much more likely might some people be to push the line of family friendly RP, exploit the game's AI, or break other rules that could not be detected by an offline GM? It might be worth considering.

While there are certainly some advantages to players being able to see when GMs are online, such as more easily being able to catch a GM to help you out with an administrative issue (broken bank chests, changing portraits, fixing skins, getting characters unstuck, etc. etc.), being able to find and join impromptus, etc., I think overall it would be harder on GMs. There are a lot of reasons for a GM to be online that do not involve running quests and impromptus--testing, fixing an aspect of the world, setting up, cleaning up, mediating player conflict, dealing with server rule infractions ... the list goes on, and most have already been mentioned. And quite frankly, obligation is usually the enemy of productivity. (Ask any college student who has to get that essay done what usually hateful chore they won't stoop to in order to avoid writing it!) Even if the majority of players were respectful and tried not to bother the online GM in case they were busy, I feel like a few players would make logging on feel like an onerous chore for already busy GMs.

In short, it's a good idea and I see the merits of it ... but I feel like there are too many hidden disadvantages that will make it detrimental overall.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Masterjack on October 11, 2010, 06:36:21 pm
How about we add a spot on the server status page where a GM can click on it to show a GM is present and available. It does not need to show the actual name of the GM or what server they are on. GMs would not need to use the feature if the did not want to, for what ever reason.

At the same time we could add a spot for individual players to click on to show they are available for some action / RP.

The way I am thinking is that you would have to be logged in to layo and then access the forums server status page. Click on the buttons by your name and presto people know what you are doing. I have no idea if it is feasible or if it is possible. It does sound like a good compromise to quite a few threads and yes I would use such a feature as both a player and a GM.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Hellblazer on October 11, 2010, 07:56:05 pm
I like the idea you brought to click for player who are available/feeling like rping.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Lynn1020 on October 11, 2010, 10:42:33 pm
Doesn't work for GMs and not sure how difficult it is to set it up... but I have seen where after logging in you can add yourself to "Looking for a Party List". It shows the character and the level.  It is wonderful when looking for a group!
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: jrizz on October 11, 2010, 11:31:05 pm
This information is already available, so all of the "against" statements dont make much sense. All that is really be asked is to make it a bit easier, anyone right now can log off and log back on to check for GMs or look at the player list, I think the request is just to add this same info to the server status page.

A much more useful item of information to show to all players on the server status screen would be location. That would save a heck load of Tells ;-)
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Hellblazer on October 11, 2010, 11:41:50 pm
I can't agree with that jrizz sorry. For one thing on the IC side of things. I've had been part of RP a few times, where people were looking for one of my chars for a contract or an other. If the information was available, then it would make things even harder for me to be able to avoid being caught/killed. Just for that I have to disagree with showing the location of PC's to other pc's. Yes it would be easier to group up to rp and hunt. But for the nefarious type of characters, it's also going to make things impossible for them to rp.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: darkstorme on October 11, 2010, 11:47:33 pm
Quote from: jrizz
This information is already available, so all of the "against" statements dont make much sense. All that is really be asked is to make it a bit easier, anyone right now can log off and log back on to check for GMs or look at the player list, I think the request is just to add this same info to the server status page.


The point that the "against" individuals are making, Jrizz, is that putting it on the Server Status page means
[list=a]


Quote

A much more useful item of information to show to all players on the server status screen would be location. That would save a heck load of Tells ;-)


In the past, there have been players who have done things that were borderline griefing, by pestering people with Tells to find out where their character is, or actually searching through areas in the hopes of "bumping into" someone they know to be online - but at least the victim had the choice of not telling them.  Imagine if they knew where to go.  As you say, it just takes a Tell to join up with someone if they're feeling like joining up with you - that isn't so onerous.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: jrizz on October 11, 2010, 11:49:49 pm
@HB that is a very good point. The first good reason I have ever heard for not showing PC location. Too bad you have such a good reason :P because it would be great OOC info to have in order to group up or make play no play choices :)
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Hellblazer on October 11, 2010, 11:54:13 pm
Well if it was a turn on/off option. Then I'd have no objection with it at all. That's asking more coding though.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: jrizz on October 11, 2010, 11:54:15 pm
Quote from: darkstorme
[LIST=a]
  • as Carillon mentioned, some bad apples would doubtless use the page to keep checking if a GM is watching before they go ahead and do something against the server rules.  Trickier to do that if you have to log all the way out and back in - and even then, you have no way of knowing whether a GM has logged in WHILE you're perpetrating whatever it is you're doing.

For the very very few that want to use the information for breaking rules it is available to them and they will go the extra yard to get it. So using that as a reason to not show it on the server page is vilifying the whole community on account of the very very few.
Title: Re: Server Status
Post by: Rowana on October 12, 2010, 02:04:51 am
Quote from: jrizz
For the very very few that want to use the information for breaking rules it is available to them and they will go the extra yard to get it. So using that as a reason to not show it on the server page is vilifying the whole community on account of the very very few.

Actually, I think this may be a matter of perspective, and you are certainly welcome to yours so don't think I am telling you are out right incorrect here. However, as a previous GM yourself, however, you are doubtlessly aware of the amount of our collective time goes into policing. In fact it has been cited in the past as one of the reason not as many quests are going on, which has been true for some time. I believe darkstorme's just-as-valid perspective is not an attempt to vilify the whole community, it's stating a fact (by his measure) that there are -enough- of those kinds of people out there that it will impact the ability of the current and active team to do their job with any accuracy and allow them to get back to the stuff they are supposed to be doing more of (questing). It would place the team at a disadvantage and jeopardize the community as a whole for the price of folks being able to ask a GM to run something for them the moment a GM is noticed on the server status page. The vast majority of the server populace is completely innocent for such necessary concerns but unfortunately there are a fair number of players who do cause a significant amount of work for the team by pushing the rules or outright breaking them. Plopping our presence on the server status, regardless of it's update delay, would make it that much easier for "them" to circumvent detection/witnessing and make the community that much more susceptible to crimes/injury. It's really not an issue of what "those people" already do to go that extra mile to avoid detection, it's about making it just that much easier for them and as a result, hurting the rest of you guys who are perfectly innocent and undeserving of having to deal with the more serious of consequences such as lost opportunities and goods. It would be a shame for a pretty pure intended feature (gods, did I just say Pseudo had a pure intent?) to be perverted (oh that's better) into a tool for "those guys" to use to hurt the rest of us.

Back to the topic matter at hand.... For my personal opinion of having GMs be made apparent to all via Server Status... With the amount of tells I get from players when I log in as a player with GM related things that are non-emergencies (and also excluding the very nice, very polite 'hey, howarya?'s) I would never, ever, ever be comfortable with a feature that forces me to reveal my presence. 90% of the time I am on the server it is because I already have something going (set up, policing, assistance non-quest, etc, etc, etc) and am already in process. It is absolutely fantastic that people want GM attention but like Dezza says, I'm already strapped for time, so much so that I don't get to log in as a player more than about once or twice a month if I'm lucky. Hopefully no offense is taken by this but I don't want someone to stalk my presence and then ask me to pay them attention jus' cause. I appreciate and can absolutely relate to the desire! I really do. It's just a simple fact that I already have so much on my plate for Layonara that gets squished in between when RL allows. The last thing I want to have to add to my list of Layo duties is to constantly disappoint any number of someones on the server that "Sorry no, I can't because I'm doing X,Y,Z already," to my duty list.

If there are GMs out there who would like the option to reveal themselves then that's great and I fully support those guys. For one thing each GM has a particular style and maybe a life of impromptus is how they best run their events. An optional clicky to reveal is fine so long as no one expects/forces me to use it. That would be a preferable way then say letting go a shout to say "Hey GM on board, let me know if you want anything!" as it tends to break immersion for RPers.

On another side of this idea that some of the others have touched on lightly... I still have this vision of Layo being all about RP before anything else. Sometimes (actually a great many times) just I want to log in and reward people sticking to that. This means the other 10% of my time is me trying to log in all stealthy like and just whack people for some exp for doing the stuff they were doing without any need for me to interfere, jump start, goad or force with my presence. To me -that- is where the magic is. I know there's a dwindling populace issue and it makes it harder to find that amongst (y)ourselves, much less having it happen in my 10% time margin. RP begets more RP as they say and I hope we can all work together to find great ways to be-getting more. I just don't think putting GMs on the constant spotlight (where the only refuge is to not be logged in) is a good way to do this. Letting GMs put themselves out there when they are ready is fine, but forcing them to be on the spot is quite possibly counter-productive for the intent of this feature.

~row
Title: For what it's worth, 4 years
Post by: orth on January 23, 2015, 02:52:38 pm

For what it's worth, 4 years later, GMs can now easily toggle whether they wish to be shown on the server status or not.  If a GM shows on the server status it means they may have the time to help with anything, may be looking for some fun RP or are just hanging about.