The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Roleplaying => Topic started by: Eight-Bit on October 17, 2004, 09:22:00 PM
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This is a one-sided request, but I feel it is needed. I can recall only two instances where someone I had raised actually carried a Soul Stone. I'm asking this now, because I am about halfway to level 13. Which is a big level for Clerics here. We get Resurrection. Without a Soul Stone on the dead player Clerics take 10,000 Xp hit. Twice as much as the Raise Dead hit of 5000.
Anyway. Soul Stones should be an expected thing on a mid to high level adventurer. For what they do they come at a very low cost. My character with no Appraise ranks can buy them for less than 2,200 gold. Though I will ALWAYS raise a Follower of Toran and his direct allies, Rofirein and Vorax. Proably friendly Gods too. But anything else, it is getting to the point where I will not raise them unless they have a Soul Stone. I've lost nearly 60,000 in Raise Deads alone this week. Thats what brought this along.
And please, don't turn this into a discussion about Clerics. I know that atleast one person will want to post that Clerics are able to get Xp with little or no difficulty. But we earn it like everyone else, and thats why it's so harsh when we loose it to something so easy to fix.
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I second the motion and bought one myself for this reaspon, I've watched Matilda raise 5 people myself in one night and known of her raising more than than on another. You will still lose XP for dying, but don't burdon someone else as well with loosing some.
Keth
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I totally understand where she is coming from and if I was a cleric I wouldn't raise anyone at all...that's just me though. I lose enough exp dieing...rasing on top of that...ugh!
As for the soul stones, well yeah I'm sure more of us would carry them if we could afford to buy them. 2200gp might not be a lot to you, but to others it's a small fortune.
I get what you are saying though.
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OK - I bought a soul stone, for 2600 gp. Is this a one use item? Will I lose it and have to buy another when/if somebody raises me?
Ta,
Erred.
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It is a one use thing yes. But it keeps you from losing XP and the healer loses very very little. I forget the exact details but the non-loss of XP to both parties is WELL worth the effort and gold.
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The one who is getting raised still suffers loss of XP with or without the soulstone.
The soulstone simply prevents the cleric from suffering XP loss when raising a person.
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I carry two soul stones (and I'm a cleric). You never know if you will die mutliple times on a quest, even when you are careful (sometimes you are just unlucky).
I bought soul stones for other palyers at the beginning of a quest before. If you can't pay for them, arrange some other method of payment/favor for the person(s) loaning you the gold.
AND don't forget to encode you name on the one's you carry for yourself (at the expense of 100 XP) or it will not make any difference whether you carry one or not.
;)
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Point of clarification: If there is no XP loss difference between being raised and respawning, and the cleric loses xp for raising...er...gold lost....cost of a soul stone...er... advantage?
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Raise Dead: Cleric loses 5k XP if dead is not carrying soulstone, Dead Person Loses 4% XP
Resurrection: Cleric loses 10k XP if dead is not carrying soulstone, Dead Person Loses 2% XP
Respawning: Dead Person Loses 10% XP, but can pray for half back.
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I'm still not sure this is enough incentive to carry a soulstone. If I am figuring this right, if you respawn and get your grave you are only incurring a 1% more xp penalty than if you carry a soulstone AND have a cleric nearby willing to raise you.
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Well here's incentive. I know a few people that die and lose 100K, after getting the grave it's down to 50K, well a 2'000 gold soul stone and a Raise dead spell takes it down to only a 40K experiance loss. Or even better! Ressurection (which many clerics will soon be getting and using), it'll only be 20'000 experiance loss. Imagine when you're losing 100K after regaining your grave, a 60% cut to that with Ressurection will seem incredible. Plus it's a common courtesy to the clerics. Don't have a soul stone, don't expect a raise. Plenty of reasons can be made up by a cleric as to why not to raise you, "He does not carry a soul stone, he must no want to be raised." "She follows Corath, an enemy to Toran, I cannot raise her even if I wished to." "Errm.....you want me to what? Come on guys that's what they made bindstones for! The wizards from ten thousand years ago worked hard to make them, the least we can do it use them." ;)
ZV-
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It is entirely a matter of personal choice. If you have a soul stone you are more likely to get a raise or res. Also, 1% xp for some is not much. For others the 1% difference in xp can amount to a week or more of gaming again. Start losing 500,000 xp on death and get only 1-35 xp per monster killed. Suddenly a 2000 gp soul stone is a great investment, especially since it take less than an hour to get 2000 gp from even low-level monster hunting or NPC quests.
YT
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Fian Bearsark - 1/17/2005 2:51 PM
I'm still not sure this is enough incentive to carry a soulstone. If I am figuring this right, if you respawn and get your grave you are only incurring a 1% more xp penalty than if you carry a soulstone AND have a cleric nearby willing to raise you.
Let's not forget how someone respawning can ruin the time available for an adventure. You have to either wait for the person to come back, not wait for him and ruin his adventure, or go back and fetch him to escort him to his grave... Is 2000gp too high of a price to pay to avoid this?
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Lets take Level 12 for Example (and it gets MUCH MUCH worse as you level). It takes 1,280,000 exp to reach level 12.
1% of that is 12,800exp. That is a lot of kills and a quite bit of time. To me it is worth it. And then you look at the Clerics out there. Do you really think they want to lose EXP just because somebody is not be "responsible"? I know I certainly wouldn't.
Level 16 is 3,200,000 and that is 32,000 exp lost (at 1%).
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Exactly. Don't just look at it as 'I have to do it to be nice to the clerics.' It's also a huge investment to the player who buys the soul stone. Saving that little bit of experiance can be almost as rewarding as earning it by killing a monster. Also, most people have money rotting in the bank, and they're usually not saving up for anything, well, there's something to buy.
Besides, if we get a majoraty vote, we could always go back to raw diamonds. ;)
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Could someone remind me why the penalties are so harsh? To me it seems to be causing unnecessary grief.
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To ensure that death is not trivialized and to ensure that there is an honest threat of permanent death. (Although only one has yet to suffer that consequence.)
YT
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when i first came here there was no XP penelty if you were raised by a cleric, and this led to people laying on the ground dead untill a cleric happened to log on or till someone came by who could go find a cleric
to remedy the situation raise dead was given saving throws, first a will save to see if you lose xp (which was 2 times the respawn cost if you failed it) then a fort save to see if the raising was succestful (DC 16 for raise and dc 12 for reserection if memory serves me right) but this was found to be too lopsided for certain classes and many classes refused to get raised and just respawned (IE Lue has horrible will and fort saves, odds are with this system lue would lose XP and still not come back, so it was better for her to just respawn)
since the saving throw system was widely unpopular we went to the system that we currently have save that the componant for the spell was a small diamond only perchaseable at temple stores, the problem here was most players didn't buy the diamonds so clerics were expected to fit the bill and many shoveled out more gold then many players have ever seen
now we have the current system which to me seems to work the best, and honestly the only way to make it fit better in my oppinion would be to have players raised without a soulstone share some of the XP hit with the cleric, then they would perhaps carry one, of course then they would probobly just respawn to save xp...hmmm i'll have to think about this one
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I think it works pretty good. My idea, and all you coders out there please do not throw tomatoes at me, would be to have the soul stone cost according to the person using it. Someone with 10,000 exp would cost 700, with 20,000 cost 1,200 gc. Maybe have the "real cost" taken when adding your name to it. Of course my numbers are examples pulled out of my....hat.
This just came to mind and I have not thought about it, but what about costing the player exp points when adding the name to it? Would that do anything?
I bought my first stone and it was allot of gold to me. Someone stated that the 2000gold is easy to come up with...WHAT? Maybe after lvl 10 it becomes easier but growing from 1 -9 I have been broke. I am not complaining, my lvl 5 char shouldn't have tons of money. Money comes with experience, learning how to defeat a certain monster to collect something to sell. Learning what is good to sell. I collected stuff that no one wanted, even after trying to just give away.
Etinfall
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I'm a level 11 cleric now (Sand Krows) and on a good week for me I raise at least 2 people who don't have soulstones. On a bad week I raise at least 5 people without a soulstone. Now if my math is correct thats... 10k on a good week (at least) and 25k on a bad week (also at least). Now you add that up over time and thats a lot of XP :( I still raise everyone I see but really, if everyone buys a soulstone we could prevent that.
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So why do soul stones have a level 9 requirement?
At least the one I was given after a cleric raised
me without one does :) I can't bind my name to it
yet.
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Sadly it is because of the way NWN places values on items. I need to have the item be at its gold price, however NWN then raises the req level on them... catch 22. :(
I thought though, the newer ones did not have that problem....?
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I was just thinking, the new ones do work for lower levels. But soon realized I just turned nine before I used my first one.
Sorry,
Etin
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Personally I'm still against the XP hit that a cleric gets...Buppi because of the type of character she is won't refuse a raise if one is required, consequently she is constantly losing vast amounts of XP what this has done though is to have caused her to be more of a loner and she rarely participates in parties anymore except for quests.
The system I would prefer but I'm sure it would not be possible with NWN unfortunately is to prevent the cleric from being able to cast spells for say 10 minutes after a raise without a soul stone and say 20 minutes after a resurrect. Why? Well this is quite a severe effect for a cleric and it would also apply pressure to players who won't even consider buying a soul stone at all, from other their other party members. Think of it...no buffs, no healing, a cleric who now won't be happy to help in combat, just because a player didn't have a soul stone
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Steve, clerics always have a choice. I bet one out of two or three times you could have gotten outta raising someone without a soul stone by playing it up. It's been said in other posts, there is almost always a reason to Not raise someone
Aeridin: "He needlessly ran into battle, showing disregard for his life and the life of others, I will not raise him so he may do more harm to others again."
Toran: "This man openly follows the Dark Sun, I cannot, nor would I wish to bring life back into his unworthy body."
Xeen: "Hrrm.....dunno, he's not very good lookin. I think the world can live without him." ;)
If you play a cleric, read up on your god, their dogma ect.....then use it as often as possible. :)
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hmm yes there are always excuses and with other clerics, including ones I have played before that would work but not with Buppi. With her alignment and with her character it would be very much OOC for her to refuse to heal or raise anyone. Perhaps if the character in question was evil and detrimental to the party she might refuse but even then she'd take into consideration the parties goal so even that would be dodgy. But thats just the way she is and the way I've always played her.
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The soul stones are going to stay as they are now... however I liked Steve's idea of no casting of spells for X RL minutes after casting raise/ress. I will keep that in mind for the future.
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honestly there are a few clerics where the raise dead spell used makes little sense
Aeridin: it says in their dogma that Aeridin doesn't like things that prolong life unnaturally since death is a part of life
Vorax: if someone dies in a battle that is an honerable death and they couldn't ask for anything more
Corath (there is at least one now): raise him? as a skeleton maybe.....
there are a few others, i just can't think of them right now thing is Aeridin should only really raise dead if it is absolutly necesary since it's actually against their dogma to do so
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I think that if the proposition was to raise the character as a zombie or other kind of undead and have them unnaturally exist, Aeridin would have a problem with that, but if life could be naturally breathed back into the body - the lifeforce rekindled in that existing body without making it a mindless slave or altering the body, etc. - then Aeridin would definitely support that.
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and it seems that most people would understand those reasons Thunder. The only reason I'd be a little upset is if it wasn't roll played. And that would be just a LITTLE upset. I fully do not EXPECT anyone to raise me, if they feel I am valuable to their cause, or I am just too cute to not have around, great. If I mocked their god 10 minutes before, oops my bad. But I don't want someone saying, no soulstone sorry. They can think it all they want, just say something else. ie "That will teach him to spit on that statue of Vorox!"
I have been thinking of a quest where, if you die, your dead unless there is raise or res from someone. Otherwise, your done with that quest. And the last one surviving wins. You do not lose exp, but only gain according to how long you last. Or, the more party members that make it to a certain point the more exp is given out. Whoa! way off topic, sorry :)
Etinfall
Etinfall
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The way I understand it, not resurrecting fallen companions is not really the letter or spirit of Aeridin's dogma about not unnaturally prolonging life. If you think about it, that life was unnaturally shortened, though one might be able to make a case regarding the self-inflicted foolishness through which said person was brought to death.
At any rate, the artificial prolonging of life would seem to apply to extrordinary measures in cases of terminal illnesses, extreme old age and so forth rather than death due to a spawn of 70 rabid Hill Giants of the Flaming Hellball Clan.
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This thread is getting off topic. If you wish to discuss dogmas, please start a new thread.
YT
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I do agree that everyone should have soul stones i hated it when chanda had to raise nethro and lost xp that she worked hard to get so ive made it a point that i always have a soul stone one me.
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Alright what we've learned is......
[list=1]
- The system will not change as of now. (Ie: No going back to small diamonds, or anything else)
- No, you don't have to carry a soul stone, but it's a courtesy to the clerics to travel with. (And don't expect a raise if you don't have one)
- No, you as a cleric, do not have to raise every person. If you know your clerics dogma, you'll know ways to get out of raising people. (Just make sure to be even across the board, people with and without soul stones under the same circumstances)
- At the lower levels 4% instead of 5%, or 2% instead of 5%, it's a big deal, and you'll probably want to save the 2'000 gold, but later it will become a big hit, so it's suggested that you have one engraved at all times.
I don't really think anything else is needed in this thread (but that's my opinion). We've learned, that it's pretty much up to the player/character whether or not to raise or carry a stone. Opinions have been voiced but in the end that's what I falls down to. But I have to say, this was an awsome thread, no Flames! :)
ZV-