The World of Layonara
The NWN Persistent World => Layonara Server => Topic started by: Aragon on February 04, 2005, 06:16:00 PM
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Let me start by saying #1 I am not complaining only asking a question, #2 This is not a Who is better thread.
My question is in regards to why the duration of the Animate Dead spell was reduced to 1 min / Caster level? When a cleric or wizard animates dead it is quite different from summoning a creature from another plane. The are using magical energies to bring to life (or unlife for the Aeridin's) a creation under their control. The PHB to paraphase says they remain animated until destroyed. A summon creature spell per the PHB has a duration of 1 round / per caster level. Was this done purely as a balancing issue or what was the reason for the change?
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Yes it was done as a balancing issue. The animated skeletons were lasting simply too long and the cleric was simply facing no risk whatsoever if they found the "right" creatures to destroy, so it was lowered down to a reasonable time. More than normal summons but not as long as it was before.
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I don't know of any clerics that would do that. ;)
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It is still twice as long as normal summons. And by 10th level you can rest and then summon a creature and it is around all the way until the next rest (10 minutes). I really don't see the problem...
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Well you may not know of any that did it but it happened a good amount. And as I stated above it is still twice as long as a summons and by 10th level it is around from "rest to rest".
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Plus a cleric with extend spell can keep their Animated Undead twice as long an it will only take a 4th circle slot, 6th for wizards. It's still a good deal.
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I was wondering, is animate dead an act of evil?
Also, i seen many spells classify as evil and should not be used by good clerics, yet i see no such thing as a too good for an evil person spell:S
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Yes, it's an evil act. You just don't mess with dead people's remains :)
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Now many say that it is an evil act, and I would normally agree. But me good friend Bama over there on the central server, raises the remains of a fallen brethren named Falco. He rp's it as his friends dying wish, now can that be seen as an evil act still? I think if it is rp'd well like in his case, I think it no longer becomes an evil act, but that's my 2 nuyen.
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First of all, you can’t animate a dead body twice. So once Bama has animated his friend once, he won’t be able to do it again. Even if he were able to animate the corpse of his friend over and over again, it would still require Bama to carry his bones around everywhere he goes, which is a relatively grim concept.
Also when you animate a pile of bones, it has nothing to do with bringing a dead brethren back to life. What you basically do is you borrow a kind of a soul from the plane of the negative energy and use it to make the bones move. You create a mindless slave. You are not raising your long lost friend to fight his last battle for you one more time.
I’m not going to go into the argument whether animating a dead corpse is an evil act or not. What I can tell you is that it most definitely isn’t a good one.
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What Rev says, he is right on.
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I was wondering, since clerics/wizards of lucinda focus on all sorts of magics and necromancy among them...
will it be wrong for a cleric of lucinda to animate?
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Wrong, no... but it would depend on your alignment as well--that would be the weighing factor on one that is following Lucinda.
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Im chaotic good
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Would it be wrong for a neutral good cleric of Aeridin to animate the dead? I think it would, but I'd like your opinion.
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Oh yeah.
Aeridin's main hate is undead and undeath, as they are an offense to life.
If a cleric of Aeridin animates a corpse he would probably lose all his clerical powers on the spot.
-TV
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Talan Va'lash - 9/7/2005 9:18 AM Oh yeah. Aeridin's main hate is undead and undeath, as they are an offense to life. If a cleric of Aeridin animates a corpse he would probably lose all his clerical powers on the spot. -TV
Quite true.
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I always argued that the skeleton I had was a Golem of sorts and not really a soul just a construct.
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Force_of_Will_ - 9/9/2005 11:22 PM I always argued that the skeleton I had was a Golem of sorts and not really a soul just a construct.
It's not, that'd make it a bone golem or something, and that takes quite some time, not to mention skill, to make. It's also not what the spell description says.
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Okay thanks. Does the same also apply for a cleric of Aeridin using negative energy and darkness spells?
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Channeling negative energy is an evil act. Always.
The school of magic of Necromancy is not always evil. Curing and healing spells are necromancy as are restorations.
Necromancy does not always equal channeling negative energy, although most channeling of negative energy is done through necromancy.
I'm not sure how NWN handles turning/rebuking undead (good clerics channel positive energy to turn/destroy evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke/command undead.) I'm not sure if you can acctually rebuke/command undead if you're evil in NWN, they might not have programmed it because most PCs are good, but technically evil clerics use negative energy to turn (rebuke/control) undead. Neutral ones pick one and have to stick with it same as with whether they can spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells. I should really play a cleric at some point because I'm not even sure how spontaneous casting of inflict vs cure spells works in NWN.
-TV
Edit: You can't just decide a spell does something different than it does because you want it to. Animate dead animates corpses. It animates their remains, it is not a temporary ressurection, and you can only animate a particular corpse once. Also, summons bring a creature of X type from somewhere in the planes for a limited duration. It is not the same creature every time no matter how much you want it to be. When a summon is killed outside of its plane it returns to its plane of origin and is unharmed.
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Thanks for the information on negative energy.
Since Sun is one of Aeridin's domains I would therefore assume that his clerics wouldn't cast the darkness spell because that would be a contradiction and probably considered blasphemy.
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Talan Va'lash - 9/12/2005 7:09 AM
Edit: You can't just decide a spell does something different than it does because you want it to. Animate dead animates corpses. It animates their remains, it is not a temporary ressurection, and you can only animate a particular corpse once. Also, summons bring a creature of X type from somewhere in the planes for a limited duration. It is not the same creature every time no matter how much you want it to be. When a summon is killed outside of its plane it returns to its plane of origin and is unharmed.
NO, ya can't change what a spell does. Can't change what it is. It is what it is. BUT, ya can convince overzealous dwarves and paladins that its whatever you want them to think it is... can't ya? I mean, Aleister knows what the spell does, but if he doesn't want to be hounded by a goody (let's for the sake of argument call him something random, like Kobal), can't he roll persuade or bluff and have the dwarf thinking it's for the good of all?
-Pox
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I play a cleric of Aeridin and have yet to cast Darkness or Animate Dead ... but do have a few thoughts on this and would like opinions.
Animate Dead ... it is temporary and if it's use were to destroy a horde of undead that could not be combated alone ... were there be consideration and not 'lose his abilities on the spot'? I can see both sides to this but am curious none the less ;)
Darkness ... Aeridin is a god that favors life though agrees that death is a part of the Cylce of Life. Darkness when used defensively to allow people to escape from an evil menace or something I do not think would be seen as an evil act nor go against the Dogma of Aeridin that says that all life is valuable. Now casting Darkness to limit the vision of an enemy so you can take his life ... i'd think this is not a favorable act and would go against Aeridin's Dogma..
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In general it depends on the type of character you play whether you should or should not use undead. In the case of Aeridin.... don't... sorry but just because it's temporary it's still evil in the eyes of Aeridin. If your cleric does it he should lose his powers.
Concerning darkness... what's evil about it? It's just an illusion spell. Just because the drow use it doesn't mean it's evil. I don't see much difference between using a darkness spell or displacement in combat.
And I think Aeridin values your live just as much as that of the person trying to kill you. I mean, you could also say that you shouldn't cast bull's strength, because it gives you an advantage.
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@goldz8, Vellyn and Filatus -
The animate dead spell is channeling negative energy to create an undead false life. Aeridin hates undeath because it goes against the proper cycle of life and death and is a mockery of life. If a cleric of Aeridin used the powers granted by Aeridin to channel negative energy and create undeath, Aeridin would probably cease to grant him any powers on the spot, regardless of why the cleric did it. Aeridin's not a machevellian type of guy.
Darkness - This spell has no inherent good/evil bias. I don't think a cleric of any god would have moral reasons not to cast this spell. Might have a problem with what you do in the darkness... but only if there would be a problem with you doing the same thing without the darkness, so the darkness isnt an issue. ex. a cleric of toran uses darkness to steal old ladies purses. Its not the darkness thats the issue its the action. If a cleric of Aeridin casts darkness to kill something, its not the darkness that may be an issue its the killing.
Frankly, a cleric of Aeridin is on shakey ground killing anything (note I said killing, you don't kill undead because they're not alive, you destroy them.) As a cleric of aeridin you're going to have to jump through a lot of RP hoops to live an average adventurers life, and there are just certain things you just shouldn't do. One of the things I've seen a lot is clerics of aeridin carrying spiked morningstars or flails. Such characters should note:
"In general, they wield quarterstaffs and shun the use of maiming weapons like axes or greatswords."
- http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=5057&posts=1
I'd consider spikes maiming.
@Synpox -
Convince whoever you want of whatever you want in character ;) Some people just get confused and think that this means that they can acctually change how the spell works *coughs*golems*coughs*
-TV
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To my point ... I said I could see both sides though my PC does not use the spell. After reading the spell description further, the descriptor does list the spell as Necromantic and evil and it does say it summons forth an undead which wasn't what I was thinking since I don't use the spell. So i'm now in agreement that Aeridin would not take kindly to casting the spell and shouldn't be used by Aeridinites.
As to darkness spell, no one said it was evil. The original question actually asked if Darkness was allowed by Aeridin because one of his spheres is Sun. I retorted by saying that it could be used evilly but also defensively. In my opinion Displacement is a defensive spell and can be used to aid a person just like darkness can, but darkness can be used offensively as an evil act. For that matter any spell can be used to aid an act of evil which is something that Aeridin (I don't think) would look kindly upon.
As a Priest of Aeridin, I hunt in the undead areas and do not seek to end life for the reason of simply gaining XP. To go into an area with a party has to have some IC reason for me. To protect myself and kill in defense is a part of the cycle of life so something attacking me may die and this fits within Aeridin's dogma ... an example would be going after the bard's necklace and killing the goblins and other creatures that attacked me first.
The point i'm making isn't that a specific thing is evil or not ... but it's the use of something that can be an evil act which makes it wrong. I was trying to clarify why I though darkness would be an okay spell given a situation when Aeridin has the Sun as a sphere.
Then again ... I could just be a whacked out Aeridinite too :o
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Killing undead ... Destorying undead ... scemantics
Weapon of choice ... first words ... In general ... and in my bio I explained the use of the morning star and was approved. I also use it as the weapon of choice for undead and see no issue with that.
I do everything I can to quest in the undead areas to fulfill Aeridin's Beliefs.
As for killing of others ... my function in any party aside from when fighting undead is as a healer. I RP that some quests may have a consequence of death, so I only partake when I am 'aiding others' as is said in the description of Aeridin and RP asking people to try not to take life if at all possible. I even chose travelling companions who accept my beliefs and try to do as I ask.
But it is indeed hard to RP an Aeridinite, and I have failed a few times along the way in my attempts to do as I think an Aeridinite should do.
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Small correction. Healing is Conjuration under 3.5 edition and in NWN. All healing spells, cleric, bard, paladin, and druid. I know it used to be Necromancy and I think it fits better under necromancy but by removing healing they've focused necromancy on just death and dying.
Also, nowhere does it state that the remains animated had to be human. It simply must have a defined anatomy(for zombies) or bones(for skeletons).
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While I think this discussion is going in loops now, I feel that everyone needs to realize something very important about this whole issue that makes the matters much simpler.
First of all to address the initial question, Animate Dead is an evil act. Period. There is absolutely no loop around it. You are not raising the bones of anyone willing, you are using the remains of RANDOM dead person and making a puppet out of it. Don't try to find a way around it, that is just looking for excuses to get a pretty handy tank.
With that said however, the decision to cast the spell is based strictly on dogma and alignment. An Aeridinite would never raise an undead corpse, period. But maybe a Chaotic Neutral Goranite would, just to investigate the properties of the raised corpse and use the research to build some contraption with the same resistances. See... thats how you do it. Don't try to make an evil spell a good one, instead understand your dogma and go from there.
Now regarding this whole issue about Aeridinites in battle and their techniques and should they be there. Well folks, reminder of the week. WE ARE IN A WAR!
Clergy are normally pacifists, unless they are from one of the martial deities, they stay in their temples learning the word of their gods, or walk the lands spreading it like a bad disease. But when the time comes and the big demonic horde is knocking on the door asking for Tythe, well... let me tell you, no one is going to be listening to sermons! I can guarantee you that lads and lasses!
And so the young Aeridinite, much to his dismay, leaves the solace of the small clinic he was raised in and walks the land to help the armies that will fight the big demon tythe collector. And I don't know about you!! But when the huge balor is swinging that big 7 metre tall sword, I want to have a Mass Heal being charged behind me already, not a Cure Light Wounds.
For some reason I picture Bloodstone giggling behind that Balor at that image of the Cure Light Wounds. I don't know about you, I hate it when evil near godly beings giggle, just gives me the creeps.
So what does that mean? That even those who are pacifists need to learn how to provide USEFUL help. Which generally means practice. Which means that they have to heal the gritty warriors that go around the world improving their skills and getting bludgeoned by Giants and any other thing that tends to want to kill them.
So remember folks, next time you visit your local temple! The people there, are the last ones who want to fight! But they have to! Otherwise there wont be a temple left tomorrow!!
- An announcement, by a disgruntled Lucindite -