The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => CNR Suggestions/Discussion => Topic started by: Eight-Bit on March 09, 2005, 08:45:00 PM
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Let's face it. It's 2rd on the list of the most useless trades. Below only fishing. As it is right now, you do excessive amounts of gathering for little actual payoff. The system itself has a lot of potential. It is a means for the less-than-good characters to come to the same ends as the goodie-two-shoes, but in their own way. It will add a layer to the weak and nearly non-existant underworld, and I believe give life to this trade.
There are three lacking qualities in the poison crafting system: duration, style, and diversity. The poison when applied to weapons lasts for about 12 seconds. Two rounds. That is enough to get one hit in. And considering the fact that most enemies that of most enemies that could fail the poison save, or let alone, not be totally immune to it, will die faster to you if you did not waste your time applying the poison. The lack of diversity of poisons is obvious. There are certain poisons that come from certain types of creatures. The creatures themselves are fine. But the lack of diverse poisons leaves us with one few constitution damage poisons, and I believe only one or two dexterity damage ones. In most cases the 1d2 Strength Damage is pointless with the fort save. Espically when the rogue feat Crippling Strike is factored into it.
DIVERSITY
My suggestion is a simple one; to change it to 7 tiers and keep the poison reagents the same, but change the way it is made. For example, the system I had in mind would factor in two other trades, Enchanting and Alchemy.
The poison will be divided by DC, starting at DC 14 and moving up and finally ending at highest in NWN, DC 26. The three types of poisons that are already in game are Dexterity, Constitution, and Strength.
To begin, the basic idea would use "Essense" of the correct stat, created by an Alchemist. For the DC 14 Strength Poison, you would need an Essense of Strength, etc.
The basic reagents would be...
Poison.
Essense of correct type.
Flask.
I believe that poisons should be divided like this:
DC 14 - Small Spider
DC 16 - Giant Spider
DC 18 - Phase Spider
DC 20 - Dire Spider
DC 22 - Bebilith
DC 24 - Spider Queen
DC 26 - Bastard Sword Spider
This makes a total of twenty one poisons, of three different flavors, and seven different strengths. But, this is not where I believe it should end. The permanent poisons were a very good idea. But the method in which they were applied to weapons was not. Anything could be made into a poison weapon, and they would sell for a lot of gold. But, because of this, I believe that pre-poisoned craftable weapons should be allowed. The weapon types should be limited. I believe that Daggers, Shortswords, Darts, and Rapiers should be the only weapons for now. (Any other ideas?) This makes for a total of 48 weapons.
The poisons would be in four different strengths, on the three types of metals with enhancement bonuses (Iron, Ada, Mithral): Mild (DC 14), Average (DC 18), Strong (DC 22), and Deadly (DC 24). They basic reagents would be...
(5) Poison (Of the correct type, and DC).
Enchanting Oil.
Crystal Rod (1-4)
Weapon.
Gem enchanted with matching stat. (Alexandrite for Mild and Average. Diamond for Strong. Emerald for Deadly.)
The Poisons needed for this would be:
DC 14 = Dire Spider
DC 18 = Bebilith
DC 22 = Queen Spider
DC 24 = Bastard Sword Spider
The weapons would have the same alignment restrictions as the Poison Tool (True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, and Evil Alignments.)
DURATION
The duration of the current poisons makes them nearly useless. I believe that thirty seconds (five rounds) or even sixty would be best. The reasons being that you are removed from stealth while you apply a poison. The second being the distance you have to travel, and the time you wait to attack. By the time you get to your target, you have either already been discovered and loose the element of suprise, or the poison has already faded from your weapon. When you consider the dexterity required to apply poisons with success, it would not give fighters an extra edge, unless they invested HEAVILY in their dexterity. And because of that, they would deal less damage per hit when compared to your average strength-based fighter.
STYLE
Poison crafting should be illegal, and the use should be punished by in game officials. The crafting stations should be hidden in shady places. Such as the back of Temples of Banderback, sewer rooms (the chessboard area in Hlint's undercity is perfect...), and other places where it would fit. As of right now it seems to be an almost acceptable practice. This minor change would add more thrill to a dull and meaningless craft.
I have thought long and considered this request ever since the perm poisons were removed. I think this trade has a lot going for it, but it has not yet been realised. Thank you for your time. Also, I would like it for this post to NOT dissolve into a thread about who should and should not use poisons.
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I like your Idea and I agree with you because I would love to be using poison bolts. However, the reason that L does not currectly have perm. poison is to prevent abuse by players(from a post I saw a while back). Both sides have a good arguement in my opinion, but we will have to see. Also keep in mind that even if approved it will take Orth a lot of time to implement it and from what I have heard and the little I have seen of him he is very very busy RL right now.
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Cp_Winddancer - 3/9/2005 11:56 PM
I like your Idea and I agree with you because I would love to be using poison bolts. However, the reason that L does not currectly have perm. poison is to prevent abuse by players(from a post I saw a while back). Both sides have a good arguement in my opinion, but we will have to see. Also keep in mind that even if approved it will take Orth a lot of time to implement it and from what I have heard and the little I have seen of him he is very very busy RL right now.
The abuse was addressed by this statement, but let me elaborate...
The permanent poisons were a very good idea. But the method in which they were applied to weapons was not. Anything could be made into a poison weapon, and they would sell for a lot of gold. But, because of this, I believe that pre-poisoned craftable weapons should be allowed. The weapon types should be limited. I believe that Daggers, Shortswords, Darts, and Rapiers should be the only weapons for now. (Any other ideas?) This makes for a total of 48 weapons.
Having pre-created weapons means that the level requirement is high enough that low level character's can't make use of it, it is alignment restricted so that people cannot break their alignment, and difficult to make so they cannot be added to skinning knives or other low cost items and sold for massive profits. If that is my understanding, the alignment and the profits were the abuse on the players' part.
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8bit. You are saying (if I read this correctly) that only some daggers, swords etc. can have poison applied... but if you use other daggers, swords etc. they can not. How does this work, it does not seem immersive--it seems arbitrary (almost to the extreme). Perhaps I read this wrong.. please explain.
Also, we tried a while ago to restrict by alignment and it was pretty much split down the middle of support and non-support of why that should happen. And I think for the most part (now at least) that people do not view poison as evil... strangely.
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I think its a great idea, something that would enhance a growing sector of PCs and would add intrigue and capability. The alignment restrctions are a must, and I think a lot of people would benifit RP wise as well as character developement. 8bit has a really good idea on how to layer it all out, it would take a bit, but I think it would be worth it.
Keth
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Leanthar - 3/10/2005 12:08 AM
8bit. You are saying (if I read this correctly) that only some daggers, swords etc. can have poison applied... but if you use other daggers, swords etc. they can not. How does this work, it does not seem immersive--it seems arbitrary (almost to the extreme). Perhaps I read this wrong.. please explain.
The poisons with a duration can, and should be applied to anything that they are able to be. The perm poisons, however, I believe should be limited just because of the orginal abuse with the last time they were in the game. Having to be enchanted onto a specific type of weapon (much like how we enchanted weapons with elemental damage in beta 4...) prevents certain types of abuse, the biggest being taking advantage of the high level requirement and thus value of poison weapons.
A skinning knife with DC 14 1d2 strength poison had a level 10 requirement, and would sell for almost 500 gold at a large pawn shop.
The reason I suggested only certain weapon types be able to have poison applied are, quite simply, to keep the bulk down. Each weapon type added increases the total number of perm poison weapons in the resources by 12. That eventually adds up. A dynamic system, based off of what was used the last time would make the most logistical sense, but it would allow the stronger poisons to be used earlier. This espically gives Clerics and others with GMW the edge.
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Leanthar - 3/10/2005 12:08 AM Also, we tried a while ago to restrict by alignment and it was pretty much split down the middle of support and non-support of why that should happen. And I think for the most part (now at least) that people do not view poison as evil... strangely.
The alignment restrictions are required. Poison is not a GOOD thing. It is not pure evil either. It is a means to an ends, and subject to certain types of people to examine before they make use of it. Law-fearing (or respecting..) characters would not use it. I believe that it should just be illegal, and punished. Thus good characters would not use it. Morality and law come into play. (And, by the way, I will always agree with yer final say. Just putting my views out there.)
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Hmm... maybe I am missing something.
"...A dynamic system, based off of what was used the last time would make the most logistical sense, but it would allow the stronger poisons to be used earlier. This espically gives Clerics and others with GMW the edge..."
These people should NEVER, EVER have the advantage.. they are already the ones that tip the scale of imbalance in a HUGE way..... What am I missing, or did I missunderstand?
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You misunderstood, but I did not word it exactly how I wanted. I ment that it would give them an advantage, and that is a negative thing.
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Permanant poison added like an elemental rod would be cool (along with other on-hit effects.) But as they would stack with elemental enchantments they would be pretty powerful. They would also likely raise the level req substantially, hopefully enough to balance them. If they were made like elemental rods now work, I would think it would be more difficult to make them only work for certain weapon types than making them work for everything.
I think the main reason using a poisoned weapon is not viewed as particularly evil, is that if you are attacking, giants for instance, it doesn't seem much more evil to attack them with a poisoned weapon than attack them with any other weapon with intent to kill them.
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Talan Va'lash - 3/10/2005 12:43 AM
Permanant poison added like an elemental rod would be cool (along with other on-hit effects.) But as they would stack with elemental enchantments they would be pretty powerful. They would also likely raise the level req substantially, hopefully enough to balance them. If they were made like elemental rods now work, I would think it would be more difficult to make them only work for certain weapon types than making them work for everything.
I think the main reason using a poisoned weapon is not viewed as particularly evil, is that if you are attacking, giants for instance, it doesn't seem much more evil to attack them with a poisoned weapon than attack them with any other weapon with intent to kill them.
That is how they used to work. And the lowest poison strength (DC 14) made a base property-free dagger a level 10 item.
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could certian fish have a poison that would cause a partial paralysis, which translates into a spell faliure percentage, like taunt will cuase a 30 % chance of spell faluire. that would make both crafts more interesting as well.
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Bombadill: Well, if youre hitting someone with a melee weapon, you're already likely to disrupt their spell, if they are casting. Besides, you can't give an added chance of spell failure as an on hit on a weapon in the toolset.
8-bit: Are all the DCs you listed in your initial post options in the toolset? I think 12 is the lowest option, not sure if they go up by 2's. I'll check when I get the chance.
If this idea is adopted and poisons remain non-good (which they probably should... Pallys of toran shouldnt be going around with poisoned holy swords lol) I think an option for good alignments should be implemented at the same time. There are so many fun on hits in the toolset, daze and stun two of the most likely for good alignments.
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A thought for this:
All normal poisons have a time limit, or a limited number of uses and only kick in on actual damage
Example:
A rogue has a poison they place on a blade, it will work for a set number of hits, say 6 poison charges, or a couple of hours gametime before it loses potency
The rogue snoops around for a bit, weapon at the ready, and poison ready and waiting on the blade, and come upon a creature
*swing, hit and damages*
Poison effect kicks in on the creature, and you now have 5 uses left
*swing, miss*
Poison is unused, 5 left
*swing, hit, but no damage*
Couldn't get a telling blow, and some of the poison rubs off the blade, so 4 uses left
*swing, hit and damages*
More poison is introduced to the creature's system and takes effect again, leaving 3 uses left
and so forth and so on....
The time and uses is a fixed number for all, but the power and affect on hit is varied and stronger based on the poison used, and charges cannot be stacked on a weapon since there is only so much space on the bladed surface. No triple poisoning a blade for 18 charges, hasting, truestriking, then rushing in to an army hamstringing them all inside a few moments. Poison is powerful, but still delicate and is an assassin's best friend. It is meant for only a handful of targets.
Now, if a veritable army of rogues pop up with poisoned blades, they might just be able to suprise a large force, but not many would be willing to follow such a path.
A vial of poison carries enough poison for one weapon, and it is completely used on any weapon to coat the edges and sharp points
A dagger or spear might hold 2 charges (but most rogues use weapon finesse)
arrows,bolts and darts would have poison for each missle in the cluster (but you deal little damage to the larger beings, so you sacrifice melee for the better chance to poison something. and ranged focus here)
A short sword may have 4 charges (long edge)
a long sword may get the 5 charges (longer edge, no longer using finesse, but brute force to hack)
an axe would get 1-2 charges (high damage near guarentees poison, and the swing keeps from using it with any finesse to save poison for future attacks)
Nothing should get more than 6 charges
Only weapons that deal pierce or slash damage can carry poison.
As for perma-poison, nothing is permanently poisonable. Poison can only last so long exposed to the open air before it dries out and weakens. Scorpions have only so much venom before their stingers lose their use and must metabolize more, same with spiders and most other living creatures. As for the undead, that is more in the area of disease and curses, not really poison.
Thoughts?
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it's not possible with the toolset to give poison like you stated, just a simple fact
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i like the idea set forth by EightBit - lots of thought and work there :)
just as a purely philosophical point, i don't view poison in this system as evil - i think that the term 'poison' has us all equating it with evil because in our minds it's something that is used against other people - but clearly in this server, thats not possible. therefore, doesn't it seem then like any other enhancement - we add electrical, fire, or frost enhancements to weapons, which are initially made from CNR (the glass rods) like poison, we cast darkfire (or other spells) on our weapons to give them extra punch, and so forth.
traditionally, yes, poison is a sneaky, dangerous substance employed by those of questionable alignment/values, but here, with a flourishing and legal rogue class, isn't it just another CNR based enhancement?
just thinking out loud....
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well in my opinion shich holds little water as im new here
Poison definitely needs to become more useful as a class but i also feel that it should be more limited. make it something that can be nice for people who use it alot but so that others can't.
Poison is sneaky even in its description its sneaky. that means that its closer to caotic than lawful lawful people may hire others to use it if their evil but they probably wouldn't use it themselves. dwarfs, which happens to be my favoite race, probably shouldn't use it but im not sure if you should cut them out completely do to what people might RP with them. what i do think is that any worshippers of say Dorand, one of the only two Gods i've really looked up, shouldn't be able to use it and other gods should have the same restrictions pretty much any good or lawful, but thats my opinion not others.
but back to power i like D blazes idea and feel its to bad that it won't work. The perma poison blades as an enchanment i think should because while poison might wear off a magical enchantment of it wont as for what the ingredients should be i haven't been here long enough to get a good idea of that. longer times should definitly be there since we can't go by how many times its used poison is meant to be put on then to sneak up and use it.
btw i like the idea of putting the poison places in secret spots but not to hard to find and to make it illegal for the authorities. also if you know someone who has a reputationn for making poison you should sorta treat them as evil, any on the trade stats have that reputation
i don't remember what else was said to much so i wont say any more in this post i might say something later feel fre to say what you want about what i said
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Yeah, I tend to agree with 8bit (on a good part of what he stated) now that I have seen his replies to my concerns and rereading it a few times. When we have some time I will take a look at this again and perhaps do an overhaul in this general direction--with a few exceptions.
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Alright, I'm going to chime in here...
Bit said something to the effect of wanting longer durrations, perhaps 60 seconds would be nice (bout how long your average haste spell lasts). I like that idea.
He also said something about wanting to add more the the poison making process. Needing essences to craft poisons depending on what poison you want to craft. (Essence of Strength for strength effecting poisons ect...) That also sounded good.
He also said something about bringing back permanent poisons but setting an alignment limmit to them. TN, CN, Any Evil. And making them only be able to be applied to certain weapons.
I believe his Cleric comment was geared towards, most Clerics are LN, CG, NG, or LG, so this would be something to keep clerics from gaining yet another edge. Plus having poison only be appliable to short swords, daggers, kuris, ect... would also cut down the number of people who could use them. (Ie: Favored weapons of clerics would keep them in check, and what barbarian would haul around a kuri?) Again I think it's smart.
I also would think that blunt weapons would not be allowed poison. (Clubs, hammers, staves ect...) That's just silly to be able to add it to them.
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On track comment:
I think something does indeed need to be done to Poisons even if it is only taking the durations and making them twice as long.
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Guys.... 8bit stated this "..Also, I would like it for this post to NOT dissolve into a thread about who should and should not use poisons.."
Lets respect that. We have heard it from just about all directions.
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Sorry, my bad. Deleting the above post and backing out here. :)
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Eight-Bit...
I was thinking about why poisions may be limited to specific types of weapons...
I think it could be realistic rationalized if you wished to limit it to weapons that do piercing damage (like daggers, short swords, rapiers...etc). The rationalization is that the poinson must actually be delivered INTO the blood stream in a sizable quantity. Other types of poisons (in RL history) that are contact poisons or severe allergins (these worked by touch or through a small larceration) may not have been developed in Layonara. Additionally, the source of the poisons in Layonara are primarily from spiders that deliver the poision via puncture and injection and therefore would likely have evolved to be deadly when introduced, hypodermically, into the blood stream.
Just thought I would offer what I consider a reasonable rational of why the weapons could realistically be limited.
Plus, these weapons are chosen weapons for thieves because piercing weapons are preferred for the sneak attack to puncture specfically targeted vital organs with precision.
Just a few thoughts.
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Gilrod - 3/10/2005 10:52 AM
Eight-Bit...
I was thinking about why poisions may be limited to specific types of weapons...
I think it could be realistic rationalized if you wished to limit it to weapons that do piercing damage (like daggers, short swords, rapiers...etc). The rationalization is that the poinson must actually be delivered INTO the blood stream in a sizable quantity............
Add arrows and bolts to that list and your onto something!
G-452
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In my limited, and realatively unimportant opinion. I would not be opposed to permanently enchanted poison arrows. I would find it highly unlikely that many would go through the bother of jumping through the myriad of hoops required to permanantly enchant something with poison (as skillfully laid out by Eight-Bit) when the item would be quickly expended (and is illegal). I think the cost prohibition would prevent abuse but would allow the nefarious thief a "secret" weapon he keeps in reserve the most desperate cases.
Good point G.
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Guardian 452 - 3/10/2005 12:21 PM
Gilrod - 3/10/2005 10:52 AM
Eight-Bit...
I was thinking about why poisions may be limited to specific types of weapons...
I think it could be realistic rationalized if you wished to limit it to weapons that do piercing damage (like daggers, short swords, rapiers...etc). The rationalization is that the poinson must actually be delivered INTO the blood stream in a sizable quantity............
Add arrows and bolts to that list and your onto something!
G-452
How could I have forgotten? Thanks G. I did have them on there, but removed them while I was editing things. I would tend to agree.
Leanthar - 3/10/2005 11:23 AM
Yeah, I tend to agree with 8bit (on a good part of what he stated) now that I have seen his replies to my concerns and rereading it a few times. When we have some time I will take a look at this again and perhaps do an overhaul in this general direction--with a few exceptions.
Thank you Leanthar. All I really wanted was to express the potential of the system. Thank you for the time to read it, and thank you to everyone else who took interest and posted. :)
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I'm all for not having bludgeoning weapons deliver poison, but slashing will still come into contact with the veins leading to the heart and the rest of the system. Animals typically inject via a pierce, but they usually squeeze their gland muscles to fill the wound. The poison doesn't escape out as easily with piercing, but many insects often have glands around their mouths which they spit onto large sawlike appendiges. Several mantises and beetles use that mode of entry when fighting, they spit on their foreleg cruncher claws and grapple their foe, sawing through him. Maybe if the poison DC could lower by 4 if applied to a slashing weapon vs a piercing one, that sounds about right.
I also think that anti-venoms(remove poison, protection from poison potions) would be better crafted through poison making than through standard alchemy. Most anti-venoms are made from derivatives of venom to build up the immune system. This ranges from things to help you fight the poisons already in you, or to build up the immune system to prevent poisons from being as effective. Divine potions through the enchanting pool should also have access to poison removal, though not as varied as the potential poisoncraft recipes. A good antivenom progression would be +2 vs poison, hold poison, +4 vs poison, remove poison, +6 vs poison, +8vs and so on until about lvl 18 poisoncraft for a total immunity shake for a few hours long.
Also, so far we've only covered poisons that enter the bloodstream directly through the veins. This means that when we catch a breather to work on this CNR a bit more, we can play around with inhalant gasses, contact poisons, and edibles. (animal monster script that makes them run up and eat the dropped poison bait like feeding chickens, heheh. Meat for bears, berries for skunks, mushrooms for piggies... etc) That'd be pretty funny.
The gas bombs made from beetle bellies actually could be moved to poisoncraft, while the acid flasks and alchemists fire strictly on the alchemy bench. We can also have a bit of fun with magical poisons that require enchanting oils or spells to craft that target mental stats and do things like bestow arcane failure, decrease movement speed, things like that. Other fun poisoncrafting recipes we can play around with are already covered by natural poisons of our day... ie: paralysis, sleep, confusion/hallucinatory effects, sluggishness(decreased movement rate), all sorts of fun side effects.
We have a good many untapped poisonous critters out there to have fun with the recipes. Snakes, manticore, yuan-ti, scorpions, myconoid spores, various flora and fauna currently used in alchemy, etc. A Silver/Belladonna/Bless mix would make a great lycanthrope slaying venom! Other than that one, we should steer away from instant death poison recipes, as they pretty much kill us humans through Con or Str draining by a long, slow process through a failing immune system.
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lonnarin - 3/11/2005 1:55 AM
I'm all for not having bludgeoning weapons deliver poison, but slashing will still come into contact with the veins leading to the heart and the rest of the system. Animals typically inject via a pierce, but they usually squeeze their gland muscles to fill the wound. The poison doesn't escape out as easily with piercing, but many insects often have glands around their mouths which they spit onto large sawlike appendiges. Several mantises and beetles use that mode of entry when fighting, they spit on their foreleg cruncher claws and grapple their foe, sawing through him. Maybe if the poison DC could lower by 4 if applied to a slashing weapon vs a piercing one, that sounds about right.
I also think that anti-venoms(remove poison, protection from poison potions) would be better crafted through poison making than through standard alchemy. Most anti-venoms are made from derivatives of venom to build up the immune system. This ranges from things to help you fight the poisons already in you, or to build up the immune system to prevent poisons from being as effective. Divine potions through the enchanting pool should also have access to poison removal, though not as varied as the potential poisoncraft recipes. A good antivenom progression would be +2 vs poison, hold poison, +4 vs poison, remove poison, +6 vs poison, +8vs and so on until about lvl 18 poisoncraft for a total immunity shake for a few hours long.
Also, so far we've only covered poisons that enter the bloodstream directly through the veins. This means that when we catch a breather to work on this CNR a bit more, we can play around with inhalant gasses, contact poisons, and edibles. (animal monster script that makes them run up and eat the dropped poison bait like feeding chickens, heheh. Meat for bears, berries for skunks, mushrooms for piggies... etc) That'd be pretty funny.
The gas bombs made from beetle bellies actually could be moved to poisoncraft, while the acid flasks and alchemists fire strictly on the alchemy bench. We can also have a bit of fun with magical poisons that require enchanting oils or spells to craft that target mental stats and do things like bestow arcane failure, decrease movement speed, things like that. Other fun poisoncrafting recipes we can play around with are already covered by natural poisons of our day... ie: paralysis, sleep, confusion/hallucinatory effects, sluggishness(decreased movement rate), all sorts of fun side effects.
We have a good many untapped poisonous critters out there to have fun with the recipes. Snakes, manticore, yuan-ti, scorpions, myconoid spores, various flora and fauna currently used in alchemy, etc. A Silver/Belladonna/Bless mix would make a great lycanthrope slaying venom! Other than that one, we should steer away from instant death poison recipes, as they pretty much kill us humans through Con or Str draining by a long, slow process through a failing immune system.
I'm just going to be rather blunt, and say that nearly everything you suggest would involve extra scripts, most of them heartbeats. And that would just be excessive lag for such a small payoff. The Antidote and Ironguts potion however are a grand idea.
I am a firm believer that things are best when they appear complex but work very, very simply. Which is why if any changes are made to the poison crafting system, I hope the base items are kept to the NWN standards. The various "on hit:" bonuses you suggested are very, very powerful. And even with a duration they are still quite excessive. Almost all of them mean instant sneak attacks for any rogue.
Feyduster +1 shortswords are already one of the best Rogue weapons out there, simply because of their daze effect.
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excuse me i know this hasn't been posted in in a long time but were there any decided changes. And if there were what are they.
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hello sorry to get a bit pushy about this but it does affect Ceala a bit and i was wondering if anything did get chosen to be changed? also sorry for double posting it just didn't seem like it was getting responded to.
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It is on our list, to look at the very least. But no, nothing has been done as of yet. There is a lot going on.
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ok thanks L i know that you guys are doing all you can
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If you are a rogue, in which poison was used to put your opponent to sleep so that you can steal him blind, or as an assassin to cause a slow death, when you are safely well out of reach of the local law enforement.
A cleric might use it for bringing him close to death for a vision quest, much like the Hopi and Navajo indians did with snake poison, to get closer to the all-father.
A druid would use it for the same purpose.
A ranger may use it, though poison is a bad idea as it poisons the meat.
A paladin might never use, and unless to use it much the same way as a cleric.
A mage would probably be the one to use it in a spell component or potion, for the purpose of speeding the effects of a potion, Though it would probably be diluted.
There are a great many spells that could be a poison, and it would be fun, with the alchemy craft, to be able to make poisons that mimic certain spells.
Sleep
Flesh to Stone
Paralysis
Destruction
You would probably need the craft enchantment as well, but you could make poison to mimic the effects of,
Power Word, Stun
Power Word, Kill
just some ideas.
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One of the things that should be done with poisons firstly is to change the item that is used to make the poison. At the moment it is a mace and that excludes druids from poison making. This has always seemed a bit odd to me mainly because a lot of the druids combat type spells seem to be poison based. This is not suprising really if you consider how often poison is used as a means of both offence and defence in nature. With other characters; clerics, rogues, fighters etc poison may have a question of morality attached to it but not with druids. A druid is living 'in nature' so much so recieves all his powers from the natural world and can even shift into other forms from nature...yet he is excluded from crafting poison, which is found all over the natural world, due to the mace that is used in CNR. I honestly feel that this should be changed to another item...perhaps a club or something like that maybe.
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What I know of poisons in RL (don't be afraid)
everyone knows of snakes, spiders, scorpions, some fish, jellyfish and crustaceans.
some commonly known plants: belladonna, witch hazel, tobacco, and currari.
some commonly known fungi: magic mushrooms
some cactii: peyote
but there are many others, that are little known, and when you compare them to the fantasy world, it becomes a very scary place indeed.
pitcher plant has digestive enzyme that could be make a liquid poison
venus fly trap stores its digestive enzyme in its roots, which is another liquid poison
the sundew secretes a sticky substance on the end of its tenaburs. which would allow one to make a poison to coat weapons, instead of using pine gum
cedar oil repels insects, because it is poisonous to them, and they know it, good oil to use against beetles and other giant insects
just examples.
most people do not know this, the reason why nightshade is poisonous, it causes the body to poison itself by blocking the bile, which builds up in the body, turning lips and finger nails blue. but you see, nightshade can be used to heal as well, it can be used to slow a persons immune system down so that other healing remedies can be administered, without the body trying to do it on its own.
smoking was the fastest way to administer herbal medicines to the body, as nicotine, being a poison in concentrated amounts(ingested), enabled medicine to be absorbed directly into the bloodstream via inhalation.
some things to keep in mind when revising poison crafting for druids.
druids would have no solid knowledge of mineral poisons, that is the domain of alchemists
druids are very much aware of more the natural poisons of animals, plants and their giant-sized kin.
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Not having slashing weapons be able to use
poison would be very very "not smart".
Especially with the reason it would not
deliver enough poison into the blood stream.
So a piercing weapon generally go deeper and
hits an artery more easily. But slashing weapons
would hit a great deal more, though veins insead.
It's not like you need to deliver a great amount
of poison anyways, how much poison do you think
a black widow has?
Bludgeoning weapons no being able to have poison
applied is fine by me in most occasions. There
are those with spikes and such attached to them
though.
I actually do not think poison crafting is dull
the way it is. Every time I grow tired of doing
the things I usually do I go dabble a bit with
poisons. It's quite satiesfying compared to
all other crafts I've tried.
What could be added though, would be poisons
of the same sort but with twice or even longer
duration. But a poison with twice the duration
should take four times or so as many poison
sacks as the original.
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Wow, would I like to stir up a dead horse with this one. If it is at all possible may I have the relevent scripts for the Poison Crafting aspect of the CNR with the proper tags for:
-Essense of Dexterity
-Essense of Strength
-Essense of Constitution
-Glass Rod 1, 2, 3, 4.
-All spider venom sacks
-Enchanted Alexandrite of Bulls, Endurance, and Cat's
-Enchanted Diamond of Bulls, Endurance, and Cat's.
-Enchanted Emerald of Bulls, Endurance, and Cat's.
I would like to submit this to the player submission forum for further review. I believe that I can handle it, and I will try to use it with Foresettii's nifty Enchantment scripts he made back in the day for dynamic weapon enchantments, but have it check and only work on certain weapons, possibly only in the rogue proficieny. Not beyond me, and certinally something to do when I get out of work to atleast chill out before I get in game. Thanks you either way.
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Couple of things.
Firstly, Piercing and Slashing weapons only - that's how poison works, PnP.
Secondly... I like the idea of charged poisons. It's either set a certain number of charges (though I'm not sure how that would work) or set the duration for a heck of a lot longer, as has been suggested and accepted.
Third. Essence of Grace and Power, 8Bit. There's no CON essence - it just takes a lot more Essence of Power. Though I do like the idea of making poisonish enchanting rods.
Which brings my fourth point. Some poisons are designed to be liquid on the blade, but what about the ones that are made to last? If you're going to poison a blowdart or arrow, you burn the poison onto the tip. So, permanent poisons are a reasonably good idea, if we ignore the fact that they'd have to be re-applied every few weeks, for the sake of easier scripting.
Fifth. Moving the poisoncraft tables sounds grand; Pyyran's started to wonder about the odd figure who he doesn't know is actually a Coranthite making all that poison... Putting them below the Surge, and in the Scamp, would do several things: One, they would get the poison tables out of the public eye, two, they would add a bit to the places themselves (after all, why would Yastin or Salles let such a thing be? Hmmm?), and three, they would put them in places that just fit a bit better.
Anyway, I've got to run... Best of luck. I'll be back to this thread later.
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I like the idea of charged poisons. It's either set a certain number of charges (though I'm not sure how that would work) or set the duration for a heck of a lot longer, as has been suggested and accepted.
Or both, as was suggested (lasts until a max number of uses or a certain time).
Another possibility -- and I have no idea if/how this can be done in the scripting -- would be that each successful "hit" would reduce the DC of the remaining poison on the weapon, until after a hit using the weakest possible posion DC, the whole effect wears off. The idea being that the first use would be "full strength", and that future uses would be with less potency, as the edge/point is no longer completely coated. Applying more poison to the weapon woulodn't stack, but would just restore the original DC.
In any case, using poison on stackable missile weapons needs to have balance considered pretty heavily. It would be pretty lopsided for a melee weapon to use a vial of poison and get a handful of hits in (and if using the decreasing DC suggestion, each one with a lower DC), and then turn around and have the same vial produce 20 arrows at full-strength DC. Arrows, bolts, and darts would probably have to be made specifically for poison (for example, hollow-tipped arrowheads to hold the poison), and the difficulty or amounts would need to be high enough to compensate for the extra power.
Actually, hollow-tipped arrowheads could be fun to play around with for more than just poison... there really doesn't need to be anything restricting what you could put in them, which could make them useful for "good" characters too. For example, filling the tips with Holy Water could add a small damage bonus against undead. Alchemist's Fire or Acid Flasks might be used similarly. In any case, it would need to be built into the weapon at manufacture time, requiring, say 5 flasks/vials/potions/whatever for a stack of 20 missiles. The crafting percentages should also reflect the added difficulty -- hollow-point arrowheads should be (significantly) harder to make correctly than regular arrowheads. The flectching task of not just making the arrows/bolts, but filling them (and then sealing) with the proper item correctly would be harder than just assembling regular arrows/bolts.
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Why not just have hollow-tipped arrows or bolts as a product, then either in another crafting process, or as a "Use Item" thing, have the Fire/Acid/Water/Poison applied?
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That's possible too... I'm just riffing anyway, so I'm sure I'm missing lots of options. 8)
I guess what I was seeing is that the hollow tip would be filled with the poison/acid/whatever, and then sealed as a part of the assembly. There's no real reason it couldn't be another step, though -- in fact, since poisoning is such a "shady" business, it makes for nice plausible deniablity for a fletcher to provide "unfilled" HP arrows/bolts that he can presume will be used for fire, acid, holy, etc. damage. Of course, our friendly neighborhood poisoner can use those same "blanks" for his own, less reputable, uses.
(Obligitory disclaimer: as always, use of poison should be strongly subject to RP considerations for the character(s) involved.)
As for just doing "apply item" on the poison, etc., to the HP arrow/bolt, again, no reason it shouldn't be possible. For balance reasons, however, I don't necessarily think one vial/flask/whatever should apply to an entire stack of 20. 4 or 5 per container is more reasonable if it's going to be a permanent property, so doing an "apply item" on a vial of poison to a stack of 20 HP arrows would give you maybe 4 poison arrows, and 16 "blanks" remaining. Also, the strength of the enhancing item may be attenuated by the small amounts -- acid/fire/holy might be +1d2 damage rather than the standard 1d6 for using a full dose (since it is a smaller amount but still being delivered directly into the body), poison could be considered one category weaker than the original vial, or maybe have an easier DC, based on the smaller amount.
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Alignment restrictions dont stop all people. Perago does not have the alignment to even hold the poison exctractor, yet he seems to do quite well at it. Side note. He doesnt use it or sell it. He says that he is researching a way to make anti-venom. Adding that would be pure sugar from his perspective. Please add this. And he would swoon at the thought of making arrows that do more damage, besides using the enhancement rods, which are far too expensive. He would be making them within days of the implementaion.
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perago can use it because he is a bard, and as such has UMD skill points, the only people other then those of the proper alignment that can use it are bards and rogues
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I belive Hollow Wraith spiders were left from you list of poison sacs. They are the hardest ones.
And Perago does have to to do something with all those points he put into UMD, far more than he should have or needed to for Layo
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Aye... Pyyran's a Rogue with quite a few ranks in UMD - having the poison table work for Ironguts and Antidote potions would be delicious, and actually show some results for his tinkering with poisons, also presumably after an antivenom.
As for the ammunition... Ten bits of ammo per vial/flask, allowing either the poison properties, or 1 extra elemental/holy damage. It shouldn't be as powerful as an enchanting rod, after all, but you should still get a decent return on your investment of poison/fire/acid/water.
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Yosemite Sam - 3/20/2006 12:45 PM
I belive Hollow Wraith spiders were left from you list of poison sacs. They are the hardest ones.
And Perago does have to to do something with all those points he put into UMD, far more than he should have or needed to for Layo
hollow wraith spider sacks are not usable currently, and as such bastard sword spiders are the hardest right now
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 3/20/2006 6:56 PM
As for the ammunition... Ten bits of ammo per vial/flask, allowing either the poison properties, or 1 extra elemental/holy damage. It shouldn't be as powerful as an enchanting rod, after all, but you should still get a decent return on your investment of poison/fire/acid/water.
You may be right... I'm just throwing around numbers as a basis for discussion. I expect that if these ideas were to be implemented, there would have to be a serious bit of tweaking and testing to make sure the new features are balanced. It would need to be useful enough to be worthwhile, without being too overpowering. Always a tricky line to walk.