The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Just for Fun => Topic started by: LoganGrimnar on July 02, 2005, 05:07:00 PM
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ive been thanking of the ablity to travil through time, im speeking of RL not IC. Some belive time travil is possable. I just wanted to listen to some other peoples opinions on it. I have a pritty undecided position on time travil.
First, if it could be done then why has noone come back yet? would it not be known by now? If one day someone comes up with a way to time travil then why have they not come back to our time, or do we just not know... UFO's maby? unlikly. I also had a thought, when you look into space, what you are seeing is actually old light. so by looking into the sky you are actually seeing the past. if you look at the north star for example, the light from the north star is however many years old by the time we see it. So it is possable that the star exploded or imploded or somthing but we just have yet to see it becouse it is so far away, so it is almost like we a seeing the past by looking at the stars, so dose that mean if we got a telascope strong enough, or if we already do, to look that far, is what we are seeing at that moment still the old light, or the new. if the star was gone and we had yet to see the explosion then when we look through a telascope would we see it then? Anyway, just somthing that has been going through my head, im looking for anyone elses opinion.
Thx, Michael
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My opinion. It's not logical, probable, or possible. (My opinion) Why would you want to travel back in time, wouldn't it risk messing it up? Is it even possible? I really don't think so. Just really don't.
I've heard many people say that time travel is possible. There is inface a post in the "Just for Fun" section that speaks of a man who claimed to time travel. Also I've heard many people say UFOs are futuristic humans coming back to study their ancestors. Meh...
As for the stars, I look at it as this. Think of light as a liquid. If you fire water across the universe, and it takes 10 years to get to earth, is that the past? No, when it left was the past, every stage of it's journey to the exact point in time that it arrives is past, but the moment it arrives is present. If you think about it, light travels, travles from stars to earth. It may take a hundred years or more to make it's trip, but all the time it's traveling. Not past...
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Hmmm I've always thought that to be able to travel into the past the past would have to exist as an objective reality, likewise with the future.
Personally I've always doubted whether that's true....I think the past is only present in our memories and in a very subjective state at that, oh and also in the intitial conditions which make up the present but that's kind of a memory too. The future of course doesn't exist yet...only its possiblity.
So I don't think that its possible because it's a nonsensical proposition....Of course I'm probably completely wrong and we're surrounded all the time by time travellers on package holidays to this, a golden age in western history :)
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Well, there are a lot of scholars that consider the possibility of a multiverse. The problem there is that it only stands for the unlimited amounts of options. So I don't think it could reflect different times.
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:) Time travel... Interesting subject. Possible? Maybe. There's just too much variability in the theoretical process. Maybe we have had visitors already and they've been integrated into our history... Or stopping something from happening. Or maybe our history is already full of 'best case scenarios'... Maybe no matter what happened, Hitler was the most favorable outcome for someone to lead Germany...
I personally think time travel is possible, but no one would possibly want to mess up history that much... The so called 'butterfly effect'.
Gah, my brain hurts thinking about it.
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This is always going to be an extremely interesting topic with many ideas and theories.
One theory i've heard was that Time is defined by light. Therefore the star you afore mentioned is indeed showing us the past since it takes many many years for the light to reach us. Therefore if we could travel faster than the speed of light, back along the light waves from the star that exploded, then at a point revert to the normal speed, we effectively would have traveled into the past and continue with time at that interval. (bloody confusing i know)
Another theory is that there is no measure for time. That we live both past, present and future all within a single instance. Our lives are thus layered with an infinite number of parallel multiverses. Which means if we could jump to a previous point in our life, we would not actually meet ourselves or cause any catastrophic event, we would simply select another branch from our infinite vault of random outcomes. (not to be mistaken with chaos theory - eg'Butterfly effect'...thats a whole other theory)
I like to believe that the parallel theory is correct as it explains many bizzare or unanswered life events such as de ja vu, astral body travel, psychic phenomenom...etc. though i doubt anywone in our life time or if ever will develop a means to physcally jump to another plane. Quantum physics would be the closest logical analogy with regards to this or time travel. and that in itself is Extremely hard to grasp.
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I'm traveling into the future right now .... and have been for a while now ...
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I absolutely believe it's possible. BUT... At humanitiess current stage and rate of evolution, and with our miniscule understanding of time, I don't think it's a possibility for US. I think we would first need to evolve beyond what we are now to be able to even try to comprehend the concept of time, because I can assure you, everything we as a species know, or THINK we know about time is less than nothing. And I don't see humans being around for the hundreds of millions of years it would take to evolve into truly intelligent life.
Right now, we can't even answer what exactly time really is, but it's though that time was created in the same instant that the universe was created, which, if true, means that the force we call time is somewhere in the range of 15 billion years old, which would mean there was no time, at least not as we have come to define it, before then. No past, present, or future. Only existence. That suggests that time is not the linear force that we perceive it to be, and that space and time may not be seperate forces. All in all, I think that we understand so little, that it's not even worth.
As for actually travelling through time, it's hard to really say what that would mean. I think it could be done, because I guess I believe that time is a tangible force of some kind. Like gravity. It's there, and it can be manipulated. What si it though? Does it flow like a river? Or is it just a set path that we are moving along? We don't know, and until we do, we're all guessing here. So can it be done? I think so. Just not by us right now.
As for the star thing. I often thought about that. No, when you see the light from a star you are not looking into the past. Light travels at a speed of 186,000 miles per second, and nearly 6,000,000,000,000 miles in 1 year. So say just for the sake of argument, you see a star that's 1 lightyear from Earth. The light you are seeing may have left the star a year ago, but it still exists within the same confines of time that we do.
As for seeing lightfrom a star that may not exist, yea, that's how it works. In fact, I read that fairly recently, scientists saw the light from a supernove that happened billions of years ago. So yeah, I would think if a star 1 light away goes supernove right now, we wouldn't see it visually until a year from now. That doesnt mean we are seeing th epast. Only something that happened already. It's not a matter of looking back through time. It's simply a matter of gargantuan amounts of distance having to be covered before the event gets from it's birthplace to our eye. Light is a funny thing like that. This happens so unimaginably far away, yet we can still see it. It's different from how we see on a daily basis. When we look at any other thing, we are seeing it now as it is, because we can only see things that are close to us. Light breaks that rule.
The whole subject of space and time is just very mind-bending. I think if we were to suddenlly understand everything tomorrow, we would be looking back on what we have thought up until then as completely asinine and laughable.
Ok enough rambling for me.
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Well where do you start on this? Is it possible? Theoretically yes. If fact subatomic particles have been proven to display all the qualities required for it and have been observed crossing “folded space” and existing in two places at the same time. Is it possible on a large scale who knows the amount of energy required is more then you can get if the earth went nuclear as a planet or at least something like that.
Why anyone hasn’t come back, well if they did would you believe them? Me neither. They would be quietly rushed off to a mental hospital and drugged until they forgot their own name. The movie 12 monkeys is a great movie that deals pretty much with that dilemma. And if they bring proof much like the MIT guy wanted well that would alter their future making it impossible for them to get back home.
Now my theory on time and their for time travel is this. Picture your self on a train, the train is moving at a constant speed along the tracks. You look out the window and you see green pasture land. The car ahead of you shows the next field with sheep, and the car behind the last field. Both other fields exist at the same time you are looking at your field and sheep are not magically created when your car gets to their field nor is the last field you passed destroyed. You can get a glimpse of the next field by altering the way you look out your window same with the past. (This would be ESP and things of that nature) But it is possible to get up and switch cars while the train is in motion if you can manage to keep your feet and not fall off the train.
Doing this on a train traveling the speed of light is quite a trick because you have to change your speed to beat the train in either direction. The speed of light is the speed that time travels according to Einstein. That brings the next problem with power how do you generate power that will propel you faster then lights when at best power burns at the speed of light, it is again theorized that if you could create a stabilized black hole you could generate that amount of power and as it is folded space it might function thru time travel and remain stable both forward and back in time. Another way to look at time is to picture a sidewalk traveling for eternity in both directions eventually making a ring at the beginning and end of eternity and where you stand an ever moving gateway that says now. And it travels with you no matter where you go, because if you do time travel you won’t be in the past you will be in the present, because past present and future and relative and no matter when in time you are you are in the present because it is happening to you now. Makes the head hurt don’t it.
And lastly some theorize that time travel is possible but only with in the multiverse. You can travel back or forward in time but only in another dimension of the multiverse, because to travel in your own would be default destroy it. No matter what you would change the past of your world just by buzzing it from space in a UFO unseen. In your past that didn’t happen so you altered history by doing it because of equal and opposite reaction of the atoms you moved with your ship the energy you discharge and all of that, let alone if you came close enough for someone to see of interact with. In the multiverse you travel to a world where you had already traveled back in time so it does not alter your history so that you can travel back to your unaltered time later. Ok my head is starting to hurt just thinking about the ramifications and possibilities and I didn’t even get to Schrodingers cat.
Hope that gives you something to think about. Its a great and facinating subject with evidence that strongly sugests the possibility that it is not only possible but has occured, at least with objects. For example a spark plug was said to have been found in a mine in rock much much older then was possible to hold a modern device and well as a pick ax with wooden handle found in some prehistorc rock predating mankind. Sure their are some weird ways that it might have happend with out time travel but just as unlikely.
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Just looking in the mirror at my hair takes me back to the 80s...
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heres another thing i thank about... space... is there a end, i find it hard to belive that anything can be unending, but this is a defect in my own thanking. everything around me only gose for so long and so far.. everything has an end or a size or someway to find the length. Everything i know of has a limit or an end, the sun will one day end, its power will burn up. life will end. the earth is so large and weighs so much. pluto is so far away and weights so much.. well not shure if we know the wight of pluto, but its just an example.. now the universe.. unending... lets say the earth started moving in one direction.. floting through space(and we dident all die from the sun ot being there) and everthing needed was with us, a fake sun and moon and whatnot.. so we could travil in one direction, forever? maby its like a circle... no unending but if you went in stright line you would one day end where you started. And direction.. on earth we have north, up, down, left, right, in outerspace.. there is nothing, how can you tell if your even goin in a stright line inless you have soething to guide you? And if its unending. is light afectied by gravity? i dont thank so, but why dose it dim after some time..we can see some stars but we cant see all of them.. there light dosent reach this far... but what is stoping it from reaching this far? if i shined a light into space.. will it go and go and go tell it hits somthing, then bounce off and go some more? i dont thank so but i really dont know that much, good thing i have you guys, ta learn me good en stuff.
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I think time travel is possible.....just not yet. Its like trying to become a shadowdancer at level one...not possible. But later on you can once you've acquired the feats and knowledge and experience. I feel that it is the same way in rl. I try to think mostly about the space time weave when thinking about time travel. Like a bedsheet dimples down when a marble is placed on it, so does the space time weave where there are planets (supposedly). Then when we go through the holes created by blackholes into (supposedly again) another universe....Which may be random seconds ahead or hours ahead...That is just my two cents though
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LoganGrimnar - 7/17/2005 1:10 PM
. is light afectied by gravity? i dont thank so, but why dose it dim after some time..we can see some stars but we cant see all of them.. there light dosent reach this far... but what is stoping it from reaching this far? if i shined a light into space.. will it go and go and go tell it hits somthing, then bounce off and go some more? i dont thank so but i really dont know that much, good thing i have you guys, ta learn me good en stuff.
Light is effected by gravity. A black hole is basicly a giant gravity well and it sucks in light. Also if you observe light from distant stars is id pulled toward gravity pockets like a neutron star etc. The main reason we dont seel all stars is not that the light don't reach us but that when it does it has bled in with other stars what you might think is a single star is a galaxey or a golobular(sp) cluster. The distance is just so great it apperas as a single star not a million. Also light spreads out as it travels due to its duplex stats as a wave and a particle. As a result as it spreads it disapates, and in doing to becomes absorbed it objets it hits, be it a dust particle, a planet, comet, their is allot of stuff out their between us and the nearest start beyond the sun. But even the sun looks the size of a quarter and its many many times the size of the earth.
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By bending beams of light providing a planar paradox involving precise geometric equations and powered by the force of a quasar and blah *brain freeze*
Anythings' possible. I subscribe to a multiuniver theory of infinte dimensions each separated by numerous variables possibly by as little as a mere fraction. Do I think we'll be able to accomplish time travel? Many, and by many I mean reputed experts in the feild dismiss it. Some however are not so dismissive. One variable that would most probably have to be included is the concept of manipulating light, antimatter, and antitime. Yes folks...does it exist? Antitime that is. We must realize that we don't even know a fraction of what's out there. Common sense. Personally I'm more exited of where we'll be in the next 50 years removing politics, red tape, etc... in terms of space exploration. We've already determined that the elements, you know those one's listed on the periodic chart that you had to learn against your will in college chemistry including all possible combinations of them make up less then a fraction of a percent of matter comprising most "space" in theory. What gives? Hmm. If time travel is possible, then as mentioned by someone given our current rate of technological advancement (which may seem rapid by the worlds standards but it's really moving at a snail's pace in the grand scheme of things - but still to give humanity credit) we'd have to be considerably advanced in space travel before time travel even becomes a thought. Although given human nature I doubt that will hold up as already indicated in this thread - not a bad thing - but a great thing as imagination is a prerequisite. First we'll need the ability to travel faster then light - which really, I belive to be extremely possible - faster not so sure, the speed of light itself..definetly. Traverse the stars, and given the size and nature of the universe coupled with the fact that it's expanding the probability of life outside us is extremely likely. We need to see time as a variable comprising of three components...past - this can never be retrieved in my opinion unless through interdimensional weaving, present, and future (which for all intents and purposes doesn't exist yet). Only if antitime exists will time travel be possible. I haven't kept up with the current literature to know the present status or feelings on that one.
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Michael Crichton's "Timeline" dealt with this, and raised some good points.
(Yes, I'm making a reference to a book, because I'm no good at science. "I'm doing the best I can with what I've been given. Sue me.")
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Shadowblade225 - 7/17/2005 7:59 PM
First we'll need the ability to travel faster then light - which really, I belive to be extremely possible - faster not so sure, the speed of light itself..definetly. Traverse the stars, and given the size and nature of the universe coupled with the fact that it's expanding the probability of life outside us is extremely likely. We need to see time as a variable comprising of three components...past - this can never be retrieved in my opinion unless through interdimensional weaving, present, and future (which for all intents and purposes doesn't exist yet). Only if antitime exists will time travel be possible. I haven't kept up with the current literature to know the present status or feelings on that one.
How ever Einstein proved that if you send matter at the speed of light it ceses to exist, ie matter breaks down at the speed of light. If time travel is possible it will need to be handeled much like a warp drive in star trek by circumventing the limitation of normal space and time travel. And the best theory is that time travel would be via the multiverse you travel "back" to a diffrent multiverse then your own one where you did exist at that time more of a linear jump across dimential boundries. Also their is no "time" or "antitime" time is more of a concept in science for why everything doesn't happen at once, much like the ehter of the past. And minor time travel is possible in that we can slow time by moving an object at high speeds. Shown via the atomic clock on a supersonic jet and on on the ground the one on the jet will "lose time" during the same period of operation as the one remaining on the ground.
I like time travel but Schrodinger's cat is way more fun IMHO. ;)
EDIT PS on the multiverse or alter dimensions Kaluza-Klein have some interesting work that seems to prove the sxistance of a 5th dimension. Their conclusion. You can search for the theory and physics online if you really care to see it.
"The classical and quantum motion of probes over the 5-dimensional space-time, predict the manifestation of quantised electric charges and the electron mass spectrum values corresponding to the experimental accuracy available in 4-dimensional space-time, electron states are a manifestation of the 5-dimensional geometry unifying gravity and electromagnetic forces. Therefore, such classical and quantum motion criteria indicate the presence of the fifth dimension as a compact extra dimension of Planck radius at each point of 4-dimensional space-time, confirming beyond any doubt the physical existence of the fifth dimension as postulated by O. Klein. The physical structure of the 5-dimensional space-time proposed by the Kaluza-Klein unification is not anymore a mere theoretical assumption, and the criteria set the first step towards string and brane theory experimental verifications."
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*passes the joint*
;)
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Xerina - 8/8/2005 7:08 PM
Shadowblade225 - 7/17/2005 7:59 PM
EDIT PS on the multiverse or alter dimensions Kaluza-Klein have some interesting work that seems to prove the sxistance of a 5th dimension. Their conclusion. You can search for the theory and physics online if you really care to see it.
"The classical and quantum motion of probes over the 5-dimensional space-time, predict the manifestation of quantised electric charges and the electron mass spectrum values corresponding to the experimental accuracy available in 4-dimensional space-time, electron states are a manifestation of the 5-dimensional geometry unifying gravity and electromagnetic forces. Therefore, such classical and quantum motion criteria indicate the presence of the fifth dimension as a compact extra dimension of Planck radius at each point of 4-dimensional space-time, confirming beyond any doubt the physical existence of the fifth dimension as postulated by O. Klein. The physical structure of the 5-dimensional space-time proposed by the Kaluza-Klein unification is not anymore a mere theoretical assumption, and the criteria set the first step towards string and brane theory experimental verifications."
Post the reference(s) or link to their work. I'd like to look at it.
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Ranting time!
Actually, in your mind you already timetravel when you go to sleep, i mean, for yourself, the moment you fall totally asleep to the moment you wake up is almost instant (unless you have a dream)So in that case you could put someone in an long coma in a secure enviroment and when they wake up, they're in the future!
Ranting time over..... *sob* :)
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Ayreon - 8/13/2005 10:39 PM
*passes the joint*
;)
...lol.
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Shotgunbunny - 9/10/2005 1:51 PM
Ranting time!
Actually, in your mind you already timetravel when you go to sleep, i mean, for yourself, the moment you fall totally asleep to the moment you wake up is almost instant (unless you have a dream)So in that case you could put someone in an long coma in a secure enviroment and when they wake up, they're in the future!
Ranting time over..... *sob* :)
that is not true time travil though, your body will not survie the long years (100+) that i make refernece to. now if this could be fixed.... such as the cryogen lab that can be automated. so in 300 years it will revive your body automaticly with no assasstence from outside sorce, you would have to have it placed in a secure location that will never in 1000+ years be altered by other men. You could get a generator of sorts to hold the power over the years and then turn on when the time has come so you have selfsufecent power in the years to come... hum that is highly possable... *starts thinking up plans*.. anyone want to come with me if i figure this out?
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How about this one then.....
If you are in a travelling device of some sort that can go much faster than the speed of light. Before you take off you wave to nobody then at rediculous speeds your circle the earth. When you come back to the original spot would you still see yourself waving? And if you could travel at 50 x the speed of light would you see 50 of yourself? Now that would be looking into the past would it not?
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interesting idea... BUT the G force that you would encounter from going from 0 to..rediculose speeds, and then from said speed to 0 again would turn you into jello. now if you did that with a computer r somthing that could withstand the G's then maby... maby it would work. Its kinda like the old trick that gose somthing like "im the fastest person in the world, watch ill run all the way around the world, you ready, watch close, okay here i go. So wasent that fast, dident even see me move did you, thats becouse im so fast."
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Consider Einstiens Theory of Relativity... in my opinion.. it does NOT lend to time travel in the sense of leaving the present to visit the past. It only says that time is considered from a relational stand point... change the object to which time is refrenced and your sense of time will obviously change... you do not change time itself... only how your observe it, you will always be in the present time. Only your consideration of passage will. To make it less confusing... you count oranges at a steady rate... everyone else count's oranges too... you count apples and it takes longer so everyone else is counting oranges faster than you... they count 4 you count 1 ... they are thee units in the future... but you all all still in the present... just counting diffent things as your "unit"... they look at you like your an idiot... you count lemons and it takes less time... .. they count to 6 and so do you... you say "Wow! I saw 4 twice!"... they lock you up in a padded room...
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incidently... we use light to guage the passage of time... if we change our perspective of light... we do not change time itself... only that which we guage time with.
creepy note... everthing in the universe is in a state of decay... orbits slow due to friction.. light slows for the same reason... the concept of time does not....
creepier note... For the concept of time to work.. it must start and stop... a beginnin with no end has no progress as all points are forever reaching the point at wich the end... (you play NWN at 3:00am and you will stop at 6am... with no end point to time... you will spend eternity reaching 6am.) and with no begining.. all of time will be stuck at it's completion... (you plan to start at 3:00am but it's already 6:00am), only a begining and end will allow for consecutive points on the time line... even a segment of the previous timelines will be eterninty between. You can divide time into infinitly small pieces... yet you will progress through at the same rate reguardless (save for the above mentioned). So the question is... what started time... and what will end it? only something outside time can affect time since no singe thing subject to a condition can wholy affect the condition without affecting itself... time cannont create it's self.. since it could not exist before it's own existance.
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Now I have a headache
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I've always thought time travel, as in moving back through space to events that have already happened, wasn't possible. Mostly because time is a tool that we humans invented to measure the passage of celestial bodies - aka planets orbiting the Sun. Though I do believe that backward causation is possible to an extent. I don't believe that the theroies of using backward causation to move forward, because I don't beleive in fate. Fate as being our futures being predetermined.
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please take two asprin and re-read what I posted before.
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Not visiting the forums because of school makes me feel like I have travelled through time... :|
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I never really understood time travel....It seemed to me that, if you moved backwards, you would eventually get back to where you started, and go back in time once again, and again, and the loop goes on forever. The future would be held up because you continued to go back over and over again.
(I say this because I think that, if something happens, thats the way it happens, and if you go back, it isn't going to change that much...guess i'm a bit closeminded that way)
By the way, you all have very intriguing ideas...I'll have to consider some more deeply