The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: RouterBlade on July 10, 2005, 09:13:00 PM
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Ok i decided to post this after obvious hints that im not doing a good job going or being Lawful good and its getting quite annoying
not to bash,flame or offend anyone but i know exactly what i am doing and i know of the consequences such as gettings into arguements and taunting people. As L said the change from CG to LG is not going to happen dramatically, it will take time. i know im doing a horrible job at going LG because i just decided to go LG. All because i want LG does not mean im going to Rp bruenor as a champion of vorax right away. Please bare with me on this, to repeat myself i know i am doing a horrible job at LG because im NOT LG yet. Bruenor is still the same old Bruenor, have patience with me, i know Bruenor has made many folk hot under the collar in the past and im sorry but this is the way i choose to Rp bruenors battlerager-ness. Have patience and wait over time, i gaurentee that you will notice a difference.
thanks in the future
Bruenor
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A Lawfull Good Bruenor is a concept that disturbs me about as deeply as Christian Rap music ... (Hey it's JC and Grandmasta G, they can save you cause I know they saved me!)
But ... if it happened overnight it would disturb me even more. Take it slow, it'll make more sense in the long run.
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just adding something
i posted this to prevent future confusion and the sort
everythings good
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Ok I'll bite RB.
Not even on the LG thing but the CG. Am CG, usually play that has t'is what fits my personality the best. But how can you attack party members like you did and consider it CG? Or disrespect a Lord in his castle so much that you end up fighting his guards? Or a few of Brues' actions since I've knowed him, actually?
I don't see how those actions fall under CG, don't know maybe am missing something here *shrugs*
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I always just figured Bruenor had a bad temper and, well....insanity, rather than having chaotic or evil intent, and from what I've seen he never acts maliciously or anything like that. He is an axe idiot afterall, and slightly unhinged!
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I agree with Kurgaz. Bruenor is not bad at all, crazy yes. In my opinion he never acts maliciously, rather he will do anything in has power to safe a companion or friend in need or danger. In his defense he attacked party members while being under the mind control of the umber hulks. As far as attacking the guards of Haven, he was having a very bad day and I guess he got frustated with the guards. I do not say it was right, but he probably lost control a bit like one would expect from a crazy dwarf nevermind a battle-rager. Other events I have not seen or witnessed. It will not be easy to change for Bruenor, but I have seen people change over time. I am sure if he puts his mind to it and get some guidance he will pull it off eventually.
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I agree with aragwen. Brue you just have a nasty short fused temper. That's what I always thought. I think that what you do is some of the best RP around. You actually cause a change in the feelings of the players wherever you go. Good luck with the change. I'm going to miss the old Brue.
-Romona (Remy)
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Hey! No Bashing Brue.. He is the maker of my armor.. Expensive yes. But sturdy nevertheless.
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well pathfinder perhaps you didnt hear the true story
Bruenor attacked dyness's bear
Dyness attack bruenor twice
each time she initiated
the second time she attacked bruenor was when he was fighting giants
she is lucky Bruenor is not malicious
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oh yea..
hahaha
about the gaurds
Bruenor doesnt like when people say " Hey hold up there! you cant do that!"
the situation escalated
haha
oh well...im planning on apologizing as a step towards LG
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Just a point of interest....attacking guards, whether or not you like being told what not to do, is CN at best, not CG.
That borders on the "I once shot a man for looking at me funny" attitude.
But then, I wasn't there, so.... *shrugs*
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The guards started attacking bruenor first
i tried to fend them off with parry but reluctantly i had to toss in brue's craziness
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Even if it is a CN action, it was a single occassion. People slip in their alignments. The alignment is supposed to be a guideline as to what the character will generally do, not what they will always do.
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Zhofe, I realize there are alignment slips, and I wasn't really saying anything positive or negative about said action and its potentially CN nature. I also mentioned that I was not there, so that in itself should have pretty much invalidated my opinion as anything other than an unsolicited opinion (and we all know what those are worth).
Also keep in mind that in the context of the game, one "slip" can result in an alignment shift. As in real-life, mistakes happen, and mistakes bear consequences.
The only reason I mentioned anything was because this thread started with a discussion of Bruenor going toward LG and then performing a potentially CN action, which would seem to tip him away from his current Good alignment and probably even tip him even more toward Chaotic.
In the context of starting a long journey toward LG, it would seem odd for someone to go even further away, and that was the basis for my comment. It's not a criticism or a crooked, pointing finger of accusation.
Again, I wasn't there.....
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Sorry, didn't mean to make it seem like an attack on you, but these actions seem to have occured before this post (atleast that was my impression)
Even if not, then it would probably take a while (especially for a Drawf) to realize that such actions aren't quite as lawfull as he'd like them to be.
I also, however, wasn't there.
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Well if it was self defense. One can hardly claim CN.. To add to that gurads did not exactly act lawfully to think of it. the proper act would be try to arrest Brue.. Not to kill him outright.. Punishment for tresspassing death without trial? Anyways. Self defense cannot be claimed CN... I don't think alignment plays into it if one defends his life.
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RouterBlade - 7/11/2005 5:59 PM
well pathfinder perhaps you didnt hear the true story
Bruenor attacked dyness's bear
Dyness attack bruenor twice
each time she initiated
the second time she attacked bruenor was when he was fighting giants
she is lucky Bruenor is not malicious
Well that's interesting there, since you bring Dyness up, because that's what I was referring to not the umberhulk incident. Funny you're saying, once again, the exact opposite of what she told me...now between a druid and Brue, Path will believee the druid, that's one. 2, I (RL) don't particularly appreciate being lied too, wether by you or Dyness.
But fer that, without Dyness to tell her side of things, it's useless to go on.
However, I wasn't asking about her, didn't even bring her up, specifically, what I did ask you is how do you justify Brue beeing CG? And interesting enough, nothing on that.
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Chaotic Good
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1. Keeps his word to any other good person.
2. Lies only to neutral or evil people.
3. Never attack or kill an unarmed foe.
4. Never harm an innocent.
5. Never torture for pleasure or information. Threats may be permissible.
6. Never kill for pleasure.
7. Always tries to help others.
8. Distrusts authority.
9. Works well in groups, but dislikes confining rules and 'red tape'.
10. Never take dirty money or items.
11. Never betray a friend.
this should sum it up
got any questions path?
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I don't see anything in this list regarding punching a wellrespected mage in the kidneys (twice). Ah well, Daeron will be working on a kill-dwarves-instantly-spell for the next few months. :P
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well he was defending gretchen with the first punch
second punch was because you taunted a not so cheerful battlerager who is still CG
didnt make him quite happy
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You don't really need a kill dwarves instantly spell. There are plenty out there that do so already, which make for will saves not fortitude ones. Just a point of note..
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I have seen changes aready in Bruenor, for the beter.. keep up the good work...
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I was present during the whole guard thing. They were out to get him. He did bother them but they attacked first. He left for quite some time in the middle of the quest to keep himselffrom the guards in respect of Jacchri. When Brue was actually fight them they ran at him the minute he came back into the room. If you want to fling insults Sand Krows attacked them too to defend Brue. As Brue said the situation escalated.
-Romona (Remy)
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RomonaBlack - 7/11/2005 9:45 PM
I was present during the whole guard thing. They were out to get him. He did bother them but they attacked first. He left for quite some time in the middle of the quest to keep himselffrom the guards in respect of Jacchri. When Brue was actually fight them they ran at him the minute he came back into the room. If you want to fling insults Sand Krows attacked them too to defend Brue. As Brue said the situation escalated.
-Romona (Remy)
As the GM who played the guard, I'm sick of these lies and perceptions. Stop defending the player because he gets your character XP.
This was how it started:
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: Whoa whoa
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: whats your business here mob?
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] easy lad
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] lads
Jacchri Abianca: [Party] We are in search of information
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: Do you have an appointment?
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: folks dont generally come rushing in a castle like that...manners these days
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: youngins
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] speak fer yerself
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] wha's yer name recruit?
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: my name? you barge in and ask my name?
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: Ya think they got recruits protecting the Lord dwarf?
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] ahm nort bargin ihn
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] ah do
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] dey tell me o' manners
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] HAR
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: You insult me and believe you're mannerful?
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] ah insulted 'im actually
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: *nods* maybe we should throw this mob out
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] *pats the guard on the shoulder*
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] ihts ahlroight
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] nope
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] ye lads gerta earn yer gold
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] ye 'andle iht
Bruenor Wildbeard: *pulls a mouthful of smoke from a pipe*
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] *puffs on a pipe*
Bruenor Wildbeard: *pulls a mouthful of smoke from a pipe*
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: and you just fire up and smoke in my face?!
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] no
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: We've both seen our sunsets and alas son's die.
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] dis ihs smokin ihn yer face
Bruenor Wildbeard uses item's special power.
Bruenor Wildbeard: *pulls a mouthful of smoke from a pipe*
Bruenor Wildbeard: *puffs on a pipe*
//This was to simulate a punch at him, though it messed up factions when Bru reacted.
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard attacks Bruenor Wildbeard : *hit* : (9 + 21 = 30)
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard damages Bruenor Wildbeard: 12 (12 Physical)
Bruenor Wildbeard attacks Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard : *miss* : (3 + 24 = 27)
Bruenor Wildbeard attacks Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard : *miss* : (5 + 19 = 24)
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] HAR
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] panzy
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: Maybe we should escort these folks out
Bruenor Wildbeard: [DM] Intimidate Check, Roll 1d20: 17 + Modifier: 13 = Total: 30
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] back off
Bruenor returned disguised but due to factions the guards ran at him, but we got them under control and every thing was good for a while.
Later on when the Lord awoke in the castle, Pelordaes was shifted into a Snake so he attacked Pelordaes, unaware he was a shifter, this prompted Sand to start getting very abusive of a Lord of the castle.
Sand Krows: [Party] *mutters something loudly about stupid guards*
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: Out now
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] fer wha?
Sand Krows: [Party] Fine fine...bloody skull lovers...
Sand Krows: [Party] Oh and...attack my friend again and prepare to face the punishment...
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: You shall never set foot in here again or you will be attacked.
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: Excuse me
Sand Krows: [Party] *smiles as he is walking out*
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: *clamps the gate*
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: Was that a threat?
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: Enjoy your stay until we can sort this out
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] yer gertin ohn me nerves
Bruenor Wildbeard: [Party] face me panzy
Sand Krows: [Party] You looking to pick a fight there?
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: WHAT IN BLAZES IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?
Bruenor Wildbeard: Ye' buggers!
Sand Krows: You just be careful. I'm warning you...
Bruenor Wildbeard: Get ye gone.
Sand Krows: [Party] Go guard something...
Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: No one leaves then.
Sand Krows: [Party] Fine....we will do it the hard way...
Now, this is when the group came out to restrain him and put him in a jail, but it got way messy and we let it play out. Bruenor ended up killing some guards but we RPed that as if he wounded them...
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I don't think Bruenor has ever gotten me XP and I think infact I led him around a bit when he was new ...
The guard situation does indeed seem to reflect badly, but I didn't really know anything about that when I mentioned anything.
Traditionally, dwarves are rude. Traditionally, battleragers are even more rude, and while this is by no means any sort of excuse, one's attitude does not necessarily depict their intentions. Bruenor may have been trying to be good, but is just a tactless dwarf.
Then again, it isn't my call to make, nor my case to defend.
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I love it. Though I'd hate to be banished from the castle and miss out on the adventures waiting beyond, this sort of totally unpredictable outcome to some pretty good RP is exactly what keeps me coming back. No doubt it was a surprise to all involved... but you go with it and see where it takes you. Sometimes you'll make a bad choice, but if you back off and step carefully all the time then this world will be a lot less interesting. I'm all for losing your temper, or being a bully or just making a stupid choice now and then. Every once in a while I also expect to exercise uncommon restraint, aid the weak, and do something fantastically clever. Occassional deviations from the norm give a character some dimension, and let you express more of yourself through the RP. If I have a truly rotten day in RL, I might tend toward a bad day in RP or a great day in RP, but probably not a normal day in RP. 2 cents from a CN Godless Ranger.
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in this matter
i am telling the truth
the gaurds did indeed attack first
now i know verbally taunting is considered a attack...but being CG brue distrusts authority and therefore doesnt like them one bit
all im saying is that i did not talk to the lord at all and i did not kill any gaurds outright...bruenor sat in the middle of the circle of the gaurds in parry mode till he got down to injured then he started to fight back
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Orth, I only defend because he wasRPng a cranky and rude dwarf. That is his character. I found him annoying the first time I met him too, but once I knew that that was the personality of the character, which makes him very interesting, then I liked him. I had to pick the lock to let us out at the end of the conflict. Your guards thought that we were stomping into the castle when we were moving normal speed ina normal looking group. There was no one to go and announce us to the Lord. I remember being surprised by the way we were treated. When Remy tried to apoligize the guards kept their rude bantering. For some reason only Rawkin got through to you Guards. Brue was being Brue. CG, LG or anything else shouldn't matter. He is a great RP'er. He should not be attacked like this. You guards were rude first and they attacked first, attacking our shifter for no reason as well. So don't get all up in my face about me "needing him for XP" I have never used him for XP. He asked me to go kill some ogres once and I declined. I play the game. You don't know me so don't judge me. Brue is brue. I happen to like him and his RP. That is what this world is about.
-Romona
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Romona..please....i truely do appreciate you defending me but i dont want any players banned because of something i started
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Actually Ramona... those were my guards Orth was helping me as he always does.... and I don't think that people should go stomping in and making demands of the lord of the castle, blowing smoke in their faces and generally being rude. Rawkin got through because he was quiet polite and helped them out with Brue.
My kid gloves are now off on all quests. If you act a fool you will most definately fail. Honestly I almost failed that whole CDQ because of the groups actions.. Sand and Brue towards those guards... but out of kindness to Jacchri I gave a couple second chances... not going to happen anymore... no more second chances on Ice quests...
In character is fine... but there will be in character consequences and that is exactly what orth and I were doing. In character consequences expect to see a lot more of them. If you don't like it.. dont go on my quests.
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RouterBlade - 7/12/2005 12:22 AM
Romona..please....i truely do appreciate you defending me but i dont want any players banned because of something i started
Bru, I'm not going to ban someone for defending themselves against my (and other GMs) opinion. While this thread is pretty debative, defending yourself is not a bannable offense. I made a perceptive opinion about something, she is free to defend herself.
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I didn't want to chime in this thread but its getting a bit ridiculous and I fear soon it will start on a little flame fest I dont think we have to put up with. So I will address a few things that was the intention of this thread and you can take them as you like but it is what it is.
First of all I don't believe you, Routerblade, needed to have made this thread in the first place. If people were giving you a hard time of how you were playing your character, we as DMs are more than glad, and it is our responsibility to address such harrasment from other players to yourself. Simply because it is griefing and against our rules. So a simple PM to Rhizome, Leanthar or myself would have been the beggining of a swift end to such an issue.
Second of all. Your intention of becoming Lawful Good, if I am not mistaken is to become a Champion of Vorax, eventually down the line. I am here to bring you the news that never will a barbarian nor a battle rager will ever be granted the status of Champion of Vorax. There are many many picky reasons for this, but the most important I believe is it goes against everything a Champion of Vorax is. So no matter how hard you try to change your alignment such distinction will never be granted. Period.
Finally, Bruenor's behaviour in quests have consequences for himself and the party. Such abrasive behaviour, however you want to label it will bring reactions from the people recieving it, whether PC or NPC. I do not recommend falling in the false idea that because you are roleplaying your alignment it makes it perfectly good for the situation. This may be or may not be your case. Either way I wanted to make that perfectly clear.
I hope this is as crystal clear as it can be.
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Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: Whoa whoa Guard of Mistone - Elite Guard: whats your business here mob?
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Bruenor, you can RP any way you want, but as Ice has said, there are consequences. I'd also like to point out the Brue follows CN much closer than CG.
1. May keep his word. (Most of the time Brue keeps his word)
2. Lies and cheats if he feels it necessary. (I'm never sure whether it's Brue or his player, but often lies when it helps fits)
3. Never kill an unarmed foe, but may knock out or beat up one. (Brue doesn't purposefully kill innocents that I've seen, but he does beat them up and/or harrass them verbally. Case in point would be the kidney punches on today's quest or the constant verbal beratements.)
4. Never kill an innocent but may harm or kidnap. (Again, he doesn't usually kill, but he will often harm and later claim some excuse.)
5. Will use torture to extract information but not for pleasure. (I'm seen Brue threaten torture on a quest and I'm sure he would do it)
6. Seldom kills for pleasure. (Here he is even worse, while he doesn't kill innocents Brue kills anything else in sight for immense pleasure)
7. Is not likely to help someone without an alterior motive. (Even if its just
showing off!). (Brue always claims he is helping people, but really he rarely is. His motive is almost always personal gain or showing off.
8. Has little respect for authority. (Brue has zero respect for athority)
9. Does not work well within groups - tends to do as he pleases, despite orders
to the contrary. (Brue does not work well at all in groups unless he is the leader and running around getting people xp. If he is not the leader (and really who in their right mind would follow an axe idiot) he is awful in a group as he never takes direction and does anything and everything to make the current situation fail.)
10. Will usually take dirty money or items. (Brue will gladly take anything that isn't nailed down)
11. Is very unlikely to betray a friend. (Brue seems loyal to friends so this holds true)
So you see, unlike your CG list, CN fits much better. I for one don't see how Brue could ever make it to LG with his CN tendancies, and even if he did, if I was the LG Dwarven God of War, I would never make an axe idiot one of my champions. They are too uncontrollable.
Brue's "excellent RP" as a gruff dwarf is often borderline griefing. He knows that pvp is not allowed so he verbally abuses and pushes every situation until all those involved are uncomfortable. His "excellent RP" has made him the number one feared person to have on a quest. In my experiences over the past few months, every quest that I have been on with one of routerblade's characters, be it Bruenor, or any other has failed. I would rate that any quest he goes on has about an 80% chance of failure due to his outrageous actions.
So stand by Bruenor and his excellent RP but all I see is a disruptive individual that destroys most everything he gets involved in. All of my quests I run are usually fairly stand-alone. They don't effect the world outside them much if any. I think I may start changing that and requesting changes to the world based on the success of my quests. If enough failures happen, maybe some people will learn that failing isn't as fun as they thought it would be.
I didn't ever plan on bring any of these opinions out in the public forum, but Bruenor opened it up himself by posting this thread that didn't even need posting. Posting and trying to look like a victim to illicit sympathy and support to bend the rules for one's own gain is frowned upon in my book.
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Rehevkor, this is just putting oil on the fire.
From what I read the reaction of the guard is justified. They are elite guards and Bruenor's reaction obviously proved a threat. What kind of eliteguard lets a group of raving adventures to wander free in a lord's castle they are sworn to protect? It's like the bodyguards of Bush letting an antiglobalist shouting his believes across the Wite House. (sorry for the bad example by the way)
Anyway, I personally like the way Bruenor is being played, but that doesn't means Daeron isn't currently pondering about using spells like Powerword Death and Weird on him. This is roleplaying and one should act naturally to another's response in character.
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I actually enjoyed that part personally, but what I am saying is I didn't think that we stomped in and demanded. We had just walked through the door and the guards were rude. I even seem to remember Jacchri trying desparately to speak to them and they were rude to him. Remy tried to apoligize several times and help Jacchri out like Rawkin eventually did, but the guards didn't seem to hear his politeness. I just think that when it came down to it, yes Brue can be over the tope sometimes and needs to tame it down, but GM's aren't perfect either...you can make mistakes like the rest of us. I will be happy to come on your quests...I have in fact. I was not trying to put down everything that you and orth did on the quest. It was good. But I felt that the guards definately provoked Brue, and if you knew anything of how he RP's that was wrong, if you didn't want an uprising. You didn't have to choose to "punch" or "swing" at him in the first place. I personally would never attack a NPC during a quest, but if they were attacking me first I'm not so certain. I'm not going to write in this anymore. I don't want to keep a debate going. But I had to respond to this because you like orth continued to make a judgement about me based on me defending a friend, that didn't deserve all of this heaping of crud on him.
Thank You,
Romona
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The guards were in thier home... a group they didn't know.. a rather large one walked into the castle. It is thier job to protect the lord... I do not think that its unreasonable in the slightest. They have the right to be rude they are Elite Guards of Mistone... Brue is just some dwarf to them. What would you do if 10 people walked into your house?
I would also like to add that vgn nailed what I was thinking spot on.
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Delete this post if you want i didnt really expect this to happen
i agree...this thread has gotten out of hand
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But in my defense after something was made clear by orth
VGN
DO NOT make assumptions about me
have you watched me all hours of every day i play
do you know that i just helped several beginners get the head of a ogre?
your making accusations based on bruenors past and i dont like it
just incase you havent noticed bruenor died today fighting as he told his partymembers to flee to saudiria
now you say i dont help others?
i say that is utter crap
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now i would also counter almost everything else that you just said by im putting this to an end
it has gotten out of hand
im requesting this thread be deleted
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I'm going to slide a comment or two into this thread and monitor it closely. Like Pankoki, I'm worried that this thread is going to erupt into some sort of a flame fest. So far the posts have been mostly respectful. Please keep it that way.
There is a thin grey area between role playing your character as a disruptive influence and being a disruptive influence to a quest. As a role play server, all of us are encouraged and expected to develop our characters along logical and fruitful trajectories. However, I believe it is important to keep some degree of OOC reasonableness in mind when deciding upon IC actions, particularly during quests. We have the best GM team you'll find anywhere, I'm sure of that. All of us are capable of adjusting on the fly to player decisions and actions. However, sometimes things can go too far and throw an event into a chaotic tailspin, thus disrupting the enjoyment for everyone involved.
My suggestion to everyone is quite simple and can be summed up in one word: communication. If you think your character would act disruptively at a particular moment in a quest, send a quick comment into the DM channel. That way the GM has the ability to manage a potentially chaotic situation far better. A GM may ask you to curtail that behavior because of very good OOC reasons. Otherwise you should definately be prepared for the IC consequences of any action your PC may undertake.
Just a few more quick comments if I may. Please remember that GMs are providing a service to our player base and have extraordinary demands put upon them. For the enoyment of our whole community, it is critical that our GMs leave events feeling good about them, feeling like events have flowed and have been enjoyable for all involved. I believe strongly that it is our roll as players to work in conjunction with our GMs to achieve this goal, even if this means making personal sacrifices.
Thank you for reading my comments.
Respect,
Rhizome
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After reading the posts submitted while composing my own post, I have decided that it is best for all invovled if this thread is frozen.
Thank you for your understanding.
Rhizome