The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: blfarris on July 15, 2005, 01:47:00 PM
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This is not to start a flame war ...
I understand the NWN and D&D drow history, but the hate and violence in Hlint and in Layo in general needs to stop!!!!!
Today in Hlint, A character threw a rock at another player, just to start violence. I understand the hate when you can tell me a name of a creature that created the hate, but to just hate for no reason other than the race is flat out wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Remaining nuetral on this post, i understand your request for peace and such but this is how some people in layo wish to RP their character and we cant tell them not to RP
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//question is this IC or OOC. if its ooc, I think your taking it a bit too personally, for the throwing of the rock is only RP (and no it wasn't me who threw it). When you go to the goblin mines to get the leaders head, aren't you killing the goblins for no good reason but the fact that they are goblins, yes they are attacking you, but they wouldn't be if you didn't invade their home in the first place, and why are you invading, because a dwarf told you he wants their leaders head, who knows perhaps hes lieing about them and only wishes you to kill them because he hates goblins ;). Just something to think about, in a D&D world there is alot of racial profiling.
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how is this RPing? you start a physical conflict and with server rules as they are (which I support 100%) you yell and push and spit pn each other? This is what Layo is about?
I am sorry, I do not support and physical violence toward any player character, and there are two out there that I will not under any reason play with, the server rules are quite clear.
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Actually, hating based on race is quite necesesary for many to correctly RP their characters.
Also, for many it is not.
It would seem your personal social ideology is permeating the game? I would never hate a (RL) person based on their race or anything else. In layo, seeing as there is an underlying plot taking place; stereotypical,nonsensical, and outright ignorant ideals must be entertained. These are stock traits that are prominent in all fiction.
Everyone cannot be the "all wise, all knowing, uncondition loving" character. Leave that to those for whom it makes sense, perhaps your PC is one of them.
EDIT:
A few posts have occured since I started this one...
The rules say nothing about RPing negatively towards another. It is only an offense when it becomes griefing (or actual PKing), and the recipient parties are offended in RL.
EDIT 2:
Darn skippy that's what Layo is about. Great roleplay, Great times. I am very happy when I hear accounts of conflict between PCs in a roleplay context.
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Some Dwarves hates Drow..some dont. Some like to show that hatred with RP, throwing stones etc. Some as Nossyla steele does'nt have that hatred which is fine. But!...some DO have it. Thus needs to play it out. Im sorry i really dont see a problem here. Its RP, its violent RP but Dwarves tend to be violent. I really did'nt get the feeling that this particular situation got out of hand. Some threw a stone some shouted some threw a fist. *shrugs* Its RP.
"how is this RPing? you start a physical conflict and with server rules as they are (which I support 100%) you yell and push and spit pn each other? This is what Layo is about?"
Yes it is in my opinion, its an act, an act on your persons feelings towards a given subject, here its a racial subject which should be played out strong, with strong feelings. The Drow and Dwarves has eon's of pain between them, why not show it. If not atleast once in a while, not saying you should start a fight on every occation you can. But all aspects needs to be played out. Violence is definetely an important aspect of a Dwarf. Again, my opinion.
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if anyone is dissobeying the server rules then you should bring it up to the GM's; though simply having your character go *slightly whacks (said character) over the head with a rod* is not against the rules.
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One of the interesting things to take into account here is alignment. Given that Layo doesn't allow evil PCs most of the time (And usually not CN either), that leaves three good alignments, along with Lawful Neutral and True Neutral.
So if a character is good, should he ever be throwing a rock at someone for no reason, even based on prejudices? What about LN and True Neutral -- how should they react? For that matter, how should someone aligned good respond to that situation?
Just some thoughts...
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Bruenor in my opinion is the most wreckless, insane, crazy, violent (list goes on) dwarf in layo. doesnt mean im the same way in RL. i guess the reason why im able to do this is because i know there is a huuge border between RL and RP. To answer your question about layo being all about "spitting, hitting and hating" its not, its about RP. Your letting your personal feelings take the best of you when this is just a game. Know that i would fully agree with you if this was about Real life but it isnt. RP is a totally different ball game.
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well first....this is just RP remember that...its just a game
And yes I am the dwarf you speak of... and the RP i am doing is due to the "NWN and D&D history" exactly..and that IS why i am doing it...
Not to provoke..but because thats how the world of Layo is build....why should you else play a dwarf? if you dont stick to the story (unless you have a specific story which is possible here). Which makes it funny.
The disputes with the drow is a part of the game..otherwise everyone could go around hand and hand and be friends...hehe ;) without problems...but where would the fun be in that?
Well...Dont misunderstand this Nossyla...but your RP surprise me also but I respect that. A nice touch I most say ;)
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I think this outburst of hatred was handeled in a good way.
Emotions is tricky to RP , but its rewarding when it works.
And if it dos not, a simpel "tell" shoud be enuff to defuse the situation.
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Mendar. I 1000% agree with you. Speak up if your offended, or play along.
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Imperious - 7/15/2005 2:04 PM
One of the interesting things to take into account here is alignment. Given that Layo doesn't allow evil PCs most of the time (And usually not CN either), that leaves three good alignments, along with Lawful Neutral and True Neutral.
So if a character is good, should he ever be throwing a rock at someone for no reason, even based on prejudices? What about LN and True Neutral -- how should they react? For that matter, how should someone aligned good respond to that situation?
Just some thoughts...
I have read many threads on alignment, and characters may act out of alignment.
A chaotic good character could very well do something like that, within his own alignment. I don't know the exact context of what happened so i'll leave it at that. A true neutral character could also DEFINITELY do something like that. I understand the CG is more arguable.
"3. May or May not attack and kill an unarmed foe.
4. May or May not Use, hurt and kill an innocent without a second thought or for pleasure. "
I know Brue, for example has intimidated both of my PCs, very threateningly many times. =) hahahahah
Hatred quite often makes for outstanding RP (when it is natural for your character to do so, of course).
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=3256&posts=7
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I dont think it would be near as fun if everyone got along together with no problems holding hands. Conflict is needed for effective and entertaining RP. And pointed out earlier in this post, much like bruenor is the most restless mean dwarf on Layo, Lia is probably the most cruel elf or even character on the server, but they are RP'd well, despite their cruel nature (yeah i know Lia is my character, but I think I RP her well :P) and seriously, chat up with me via tell or anything, you'll find I'm nothing like my character in RL.
and as said earlier, i've said plenty of times to people and i will continue, if you find my character to be too much, then I will bring her down a notch for you, and there are plenty of times when new players come on and i have my character be rude to them when first meeting them and afterwards, I ussually tend to send an appology via tell to those people.
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Varka - 7/15/2005 2:06 PM
well first....this is just RP remember that...its just a game
And yes I am the dwarf you speak of... and the RP i am doing is due to the "NWN and D&D history" exactly..and that IS why i am doing it...
Not to provoke..but because thats how the world of Layo is build....why should you else play a dwarf? if you dont stick to the story (unless you have a specific story which is possible here). Which makes it funny.
The disputes with the drow is a part of the game..otherwise everyone could go around hand and hand and be friends...hehe ;) without problems...but where would the fun be in that?
Well...Dont misunderstand this Nossyla...but your RP surprise me also but I respect that. A nice touch I most say ;)
Varka, you seem to understand the concept of role play very well. Hats off.
This is where the stock characters I have been talking about come into play, well done Varka.
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Yea, i agree with menidar
usually after Brue gets into a arguement (arguements with brue arent exactly light) i send a tell OOC to make sure the person RP'n the other character isnt P.O'd at ME. Please remember that this is a game and its made for everyone to have fun, dont let your emotions go wild on it :)
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Yea, i agree with menidar
usually after Brue gets into a arguement (arguements with brue arent exactly light) i send a tell OOC to make sure the person RP'n the other character isnt P.O'd at ME. Please remember that this is a game and its made for everyone to have fun, dont let your emotions go wild over it :)
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True..Tell is a good way to stop it....but also a good way to deal with a dispute like this for the "active" PC... when passive characters are watching it.
During most of the lag (sorry hehe) i talked to kayla how to do this - and quin who was also involved....
And so you all know...the hit I made on quin should have knocked him down...but as the discussion evolved too much - I wrote *varka hits quin shield* followed by his retreat.
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Yup, I was the human guy there trying to stop Varka, but I didn't mean for hm to stop RPing his character. I actually think it is very healthy for characters to hate each other here. I know my character had some issues with a particular evil corath following bard, but OOC we sent friendly tells to each other and had fun with it.
The game is about rivalry, if not with other players then with the evil in the world. If there isn't any conflict, then why try to do anything? Just to get ub3r 13wt and l3v3lz0rz, and that is what we are trying to avoid here.
Oh, and as for how a good aligned person could RP a hatred of drow, same way they RP a hatred of all those mean evil monsters out there. With a sword and a scream and a desire to smite, even if you can't carry it through.
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It is very important to not let IC events cloud your OOC actions. And sometimes that is very hard..hehe
Last night on a quest..Luna wanted to seriously harm Bruenor and Gretchen....*snickers* But they were RPing their characters. There were a few times I wanted to reach through my monitor and strangle them..haha.
But when it is all said and done, I personally still like RouterBlade and Rehevkor and hold no grudges for anything they said IC and I expect the reverse is true.
Now, how Luna reacts to them ICly in the future might change a bit, but only time will tell on that one.
In short, IC conflicts encourage RP. Sometimes it is messy, but hopefully no one is truly offended by the actions. And a tell is always a nice thing just to make sure. :)
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I wasn't suggesting a good person couldn't RP a hatred of Drow -- what I was just wondering is if a good person could throw rocks at someone for no reason, other than a prejudice? And yes, players can act out of alignment on occasion, but how often do you get to do it before you change alignment? Based on the alignment charts on the Layo table, about the only alignment that most typical players might do that and get away with it is True Neutral.
As a Chaotic Good person or True Neutral person or whatever, am I allowed to throw rocks at every Drow, Goblin, Half-Orc, Half-Giant that I pass everytime with no consequence to my alignment?
Just being the spanner in the works....
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hmmm you say tell a GM ... well it was a DM character who started the mess ... how far do you think I would get with that tell?
Varka, I understand your position, and I honor it. I do disagree with it, But I honor it
I am no expert in Layo history, but being there is no Evil characters, I still think I had the right to ask for a name of the drow that made you so mad about drows. Yet you ignored me ... To me ( a personal opinion) to attack becuase you see a race is evil ... If I truely thought I would get support I would ask that your alignment be changed a few points because of the action in character you did. But I know this will not happen.
As for Noss ... you spoke of him as not a true dwarf by D&D and NWN rules, and yes you are right, but remember Layo is different ... it gets a lot from those two sources, but it is different. I do not see a history of drow attacking Hlint, or a particular drow in alliance with blood. I will again state I am no expert in Layo history so I may be wrong here.
As you state, it is a game .... I will play Noss under the rules of Layo to the best of my ability ...
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To: Quin
Not at all...you RP was good. But the lag was too big to contiune and as you know. All conflicts has to stop at some point.
So I toke the decision to leave.
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My dwarf, Kurgaz, is of lawful good alignment, he also hates Drow, but up to this point he has never "attacked" one in any form, as it would break the lawful part of his alignment, but on the other hand being nice to them would completely detract from Dwarven-Drow animosity. He usually just makes comments about them or tries to ignore them.
As I said in another thread, the Drow named Suliss Dob'luth (sp?) has attracted most of his wrath so far (on multiple occasions, thus building a friendly rivalry), she wanted to come with a group I was guiding to some cougars, so instead of either welcoming here into the group with open arms or rejecting her completely (which is something I wouldnt like to do)
I said "come along if you must, but I wont be taking a hit for you, and if you fall behind you're on your own". During the journey we were attacked by a group of 4 griffons, I fought three but the other went to attack Suliss, after that one died I said IC "*sighs* I was hoping the thing would ta you" and then sent a tell to the player letting them know it wasnt personal and to take no offence to the stubborn dwarf, in reply they said "I wont, I like it. English is not my native language, so i dont always understand subtle insults". Which I think proves that even the characters being "descriminated" against are still enjoying themselves, as long as it isnt done in a wreckless way.
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Imperious - 7/15/2005 2:26 PM
I wasn't suggesting a good person couldn't RP a hatred of Drow -- what I was just wondering is if a good person could throw rocks at someone for no reason, other than a prejudice? And yes, players can act out of alignment on occasion, but how often do you get to do it before you change alignment? Based on the alignment charts on the Layo table, about the only alignment that most typical players might do that and get away with it is True Neutral.
As a Chaotic Good person or True Neutral person or whatever, am I allowed to throw rocks at every Drow, Goblin, Half-Orc, Half-Giant that I pass everytime with no consequence to my alignment?
Just being the spanner in the works....
I would assume if somebody acted out of alignment quite often, they should ask for an alignment change. Perhaps it's part of their character developement? You can't really know without asking.
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blfarris - 7/15/2005 2:28 PM
As you state, it is a game .... I will play Noss under the rules of Layo to the best of my ability ...
Again, you bring rules into it. As far as I can tell both parties were operating under the rules.
Evil, violent, hurtful RP is fine, if done strictly on RP terms and is not meant to grief the user of the second party. Obviously, actual PKing is not permissable, save for when a DM is present.
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No drow attacks on Hlint? Check out ZeroVega's post to see a whole lot of history of drow raids, not to mention that there have been atleast 2 or 3 drow attacks IN GAME on Hlint while I have been here ...so yes, there is alot of drow hating history on Layo.
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Heheh. Well my new dwarf just told off some elveses. And insulted a halfling although being persistant and all we did hav e anice conversation after awhile.. It helped that she knew dwarven and my dwarf did not..
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Conflict is the essence of drama.
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Nobody did anything wrong. In fact I think the person who is most wrong in this thread is you Noss.
As a previous poster wrote, what makes these characters played by PCs any different from the goblins or ogres that you slay endlessly?
You hate ogres and goblins? How come another PC can't hate another race or person? And RP conflict as such.
Also just because it's a GM playing this character means nothing. In fact he's typically more scrutinized for his actions. He's also made it as a GM for his quality RP. I say hats off for finally showing some dissention and hate... This world is getting too huggy.
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Well. Why Varka doesnt like drow is something you have to find out as Nossyla…
But what Nossyla did will not make it easy for him to find out - why Varka doesnt like them… (and to confront Varka frontier will not give you the answer. Maybe ask another dwarf – just an idea).
But I will advice to look at the following pages of the Handbook – 104 and 106 – (// OOCVarka is from bloody gate). The handbook will not tell you why Varka doesn’t like them but it will give you a hint.
And about your question “what drow did make you mad”…
As in many RL cultures there isn’t always “a specific reason” for hatreds – (don’t know how to explain this in English – and in short terms). Some help from other players or GM?
And if you somehow felt attacked by my notes I am sorry….
From you:
As for Noss ... you spoke of him as not a true dwarf by D&D and NWN rules, and yes you are right, but remember Layo is different
My note:
(unless you have a specific story which is possible here). Which makes it funny.
Well...Dont misunderstand this Nossyla...but your RP surprise me also but I respect that. A nice touch I most say ;)
PLease read the “end lines” of those two sections again.
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Vaderdumm Daemonsmelter: "GRRRRR DRROOOW.. By Dorands beeerd, they will have to go through me. Law and order will hold... Even if that means drow bandits waylaid by the road!"
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First off, this is MY opinion, and other than a comment I quote from blfarris, there is nothing directly aimed at any single player or group of players in this post. This is NOT an official statement from anyone on the GM team, in fact, some members of the GM team might feel differently than I do on any number of things I am going to type here. I am going to put my 0.02 dollars in the pot because a few things that have been posted have kinda rubbed me wrong.
blfarris wrote :
hmmm you say tell a GM ... well it was a DM character who started the mess ... how far do you think I would get with that tell?
I rather resent the idea that GM's don't have the same rules as non-GM PC's. If anything there are higher expectations put on us, and the misconception that we are somehow 'above the rules' when in fact the punishment for breaking the rules as a GM would be FAR harsher than anything experienced by a PC. Theres no claiming ignorance for us, theres not going to be a warning, if a GM breaks the rules at the very least I would imagine they are going to get booted from the GM position they hold. The idea that GM's are some sort of 'ruling class' is just rediculous, but I've seen it before in every other online community. If there is a group who administers the games, servers or activities of the community they are the first, and easiest target. The GM team here from my short experience as being a member of it is one of the most solid, fair minded groups of mature and reasonable people that I've yet had a chance to work with, and I'm just getting tired of the GM team sucking it up and not defending themselves because it's the more diplomatic thing to do.
I reccomend that if you (a general you, not specific) have a problem seperating the psyche of your RP pretend character from your RL self, and might have a problem with confrontation with another PC who is attempting to RP thier characters racial hatred of the race you choose to play, then DONT play the following races.
Drow - A fair majority of EVERY race HATES the drow.
Elves - Dwarves in general don't like them, and depending on sub-race, some elves won't like you either.
Dwarves - Elves in general don't like them
Duergar - Same as Drow
Gnomes - Some people think they are annoying and distracting, not to mention dangerously absentminded.
Deep Gnomes - they get a bad rap just for being from the underdark.
Halflings - Seems that a few bad apples have labeled Halflings as a 'rogue' race, a lot of people hold thier purses closer when a halfling is about.
Half-Giants - Most dwarves wont like them, may even be hostile
Half-Elves - Elves will look down on you, humans will think you are looking down on them.
Half-Orcs - Crude, smally, stupid...You'l lucky if your MOTHER likes you.
Orcs - Half-Orc x5
Goblin - Please... goblins have been newbie fodder for as long as there was fantasy RP
Humans - Brash, impulsive, more often than not motivated by greed or some twisted personal agenda, worse yet, they breed religious zealots at an alarming rate, elves and dwarves at least start out distrustfull most of the time.
Tiefling - Infernal blood taint... 'nuff said.
Aasimar - Holier than thou planes touched beings who really are Holier than thou, snotty and arrogant.
I guess that leaves Brownies and Wemics... who are too new as a PC race to have a history of racial preferrance... no, wait...Wemics are pridefull and arrogant as well.
Be a Brownie, they are supposed to be timid, helpfull, kind and shy creatures. All the other races view them as beneficial and not only tolerate them well, but would want to encourage thier company...OH... no, didn't thier homeland just get destroyed? Well, I guess Brownies probably have someone they could fit into some racial hatred RP too.
Guess that pretty much rules out a race that has no racial hatred or a trait of thier own that might inspire another race or even individual from fostering a bit of animosity...tough luck I guess.
Maybe the day will come when the GM team will quit dodging all the rules for thier personal gain and they can create a 'Daisy' race. Everyone likes Daisies. Except those of us with hayfever... shoot... this is hard!
This isn't real life. This isn't some generic, politically correct alternative to the admittedly diverse, divisive and depressingly violent world we all LIVE in. This is a chaotic land in turmoil and under a great danger from a nigh unstoppable foe.
Pick your pill Neo, one takes you back to the depressing reality of people who are willing to blow themselves up in a busload of commuters who have absolutely no idea what the message they are about to die for is. The other pill takes you to a land where your every breath could be your last, your enemies, both obvious and subtle plot your ultimate demise and YOU can make a difference in the fate of the world.
*picks up his soap-box and gives it back to Grubber so he can see over the counter at the Orc Bashers shop*
(Oh no, Gloin must hate Orcs, bad bad orc basher! Orcs are people too!)
Vyris
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Well if angrily said Vyris. Particularly the comment on GMs. You guys get a bad rap.
So I guess you can add GM to the list of races not to play too.
And personally, I think a brownie would creep me out a bit ...
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Well since I'm the one who started this I'll make a comment too if I may....
Firstly Noss I'm sorry if you were offended by this and from your post it seems you were, you could have sent a simple tell and I'd have tried to explain something of what was happening and why but I didn't get anything from you. Secondly the two drow concerned were happy OOC with what was happening so we continued and there was some fine examples of RP from all the players involved.
So I thought that since its become a forum matter I'd post a little OOC to justify what happened but of course no one knows this in game :)
Firstly Jehannum is a Svirfneblin an underdark race of gnomes who have traditional been hunted and murdered enmass by the drow. They have been enslaved as people, persecuted and well you get the idea by the drow too. This has been going on forever really, even their native religion with Beryl is heavily affected by this. However if you read Jehannum's Bio
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=15450&posts=2
you will realise that he has even more reason's, personal ones at that to hate them. Now the problem is that he's a Svirfneblin and not particulary powerful at that so he isn't going to call down fire from heaven or wade into them with a sword even though he wishes he could. But throwing stones, calling them names, trying to get them driven out of town yes these are things he can and will do. He'd be the first to gloat and laugh at their pains and misfortunes as well, he'd not heal raise or buff them in anyway either. This is all IC. To be honest as a player I find this pretty hard...being a team member and everything. Earlier on in the day I was with a party which had a drow character in it. One that one of my other characters gets along with very well, anyway she was killed or rather reduced to something like -5 points so she could have been saved. Guess who was the nearest character....right it was Jehannum but to be IC I had him gloat over her fallen body and let her die when it would have been easy to save her. As a player it was hard and yes I felt a bit guilty but it was right for Jehannum. I did send a tell explaining why and all was good, but it had to be done that way.
Anyway a bit about the drow themselves....well they basically are an evil race. Its bred into them over millenia...ever wondered were driders come from? Well ask Ozy or one of the other players but you may be suprised, they are not good compassionate beings even to their own. Take a look at Zero's post it explains a lot of what they are like.
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=15458&posts=40
It is true some drow have good alignments and are helping in the Bloodwar but how do you really know? Drow are masters at lies and deception and will use this just as often to get their ways as fighting and killing. That drow you've travelled with who's saved your life many times and helped you when you've needed it, is just as likely to stab you in the back with a poisoned dagger at a critical moment when it suits her purposes. Of course most PC's arn't played like that but that sort of thing is something the drow would do. Jehannum himself thinks that all the drow in Hlint and beyond who say they are good are upto just that sort of deception.
Anyway when it comes down to it...it is just a game. But it is one that needs to played respectfully or it all falls apart then characters don't follow alignments, their historys mean nothing and the most dreadful things that happen to a character are forgotton when its convienient, and the whole world then and its RP becomes something of a joke.
I hope this has explained something about why this happened and also why he'll act in a similar way in the future when confronted by the things he hates the most. Perhaps if it does cause offence to too many players he will be killed off...heh in a drow raid perhaps that would be ironic. Although I personally hope he does stay the distance and make his mark in Layo even though it may be in crayon and a bit wobbly :)
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Racial hatred certainly fits into the context of a fantasy role-playing world. Attacking a person because they belong to the same race as individuals who have committed wrong is an act of selfishness. It directs blame at a person who may be entirely blameless in order to satify a misguided sense of pride or justice.
Using the alignment system as a guide, it can be described as evil.
Feel free to role-play your character however you choose. Be prepared to accept the consequences.
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I need to make a quick comment here to follow up what Vyris has said. There is a mechanism in place on this server for filing complaints and grievances. PvP, griefing, or more general issues clearly fit within that domain. The mechanism is in place to not only deal with issues between players, but also between players and GMs. It is important that if you find yourself in such a situation and need assistance dealing with it, that you follow the propper grievance procedure.
You can either file a public report by following these guidelines:
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=14402&posts=1
Or you can send a PM to me or Leanthar. Please consider sending it to me first, as Leanthar has his hands full with various other duties.
If you do not follow these procedures, then your complaint has far less weight. Instead of being an issue you'd like to see resolved, it instead can look like an implicit attempt to further stir things up.
Thank you for reading this.
Rhizome
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Ok, after reading all the posts I thought I should post as well. I am Kayla Warcrest in the game and I will state that I am GLAD to see more racial tensions toward the drow. How ealse am I suppose to leave behind my past, fairly evil even if she didnt like what she did she still did them, and prove myself to thoues around me by my actions that I am good if every single person I meet greets me with open arms like a long lost family member?
Now im not saying that everyone should attack the drow on sight as it would make it nearly impossible for alot of us to progress game wise. But keep in mind we have raided hlint a few times. Whats not to say were not foward scouts for the next invasion? ;)
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To me, Victor's post hit it right on the head....roleplay all you want...just be ready to accept the consequences, especially as it relates to alignment...and most assuredly there should be consequences. Perhaps there aren't enough now, I don't know.
You want to hate someone in the game for RP purposes? Fine, no problem with that. I don't care how much you hate the Drow (or any other race) or how much you believe your hate is justified though....attacking an individual without cause is evil....That's why we have an alignment system in the game. (of course, Layo prevents PK, so there's a whole barrier there anyway).
I can see in the original example that someone might have thought that rock-throwing was a toned-down way to express anger, hatred...perhpas, but it stil leads you down to a slippery slope of what is good/evil related to your character and his/her alignment. Should characters be conscious of their reactions to Drow in light of the reptuation of their race. Sure? Should they also be conscious of their actions towards individuals of those race with regards to their alignment? The only answer is an equally affirmative response.
There was a great example earlier in the post of a dwarf hoping his Drow companion would die. As a LG dwarf, should he have to come to the Drow's aid if it had been needed?...I don' tknow...I am tempted to say yes, looking at alignments, but I think it's open to interpretation...
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Being a Drow is reason for attack ...
If attacking a drow in town is evil then attackin the undead in town is also evil
Afterall, they are just living impaired ...
I mean really, if attacking is evil then we are ALL evil, and should all be perma-retired because we went evil without a CDQ.
Don't get me wrong, I'll defend your right to not hate drow just as much as I will defend your right to hate them.
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Zhofe - 7/15/2005 5:48 PM
Being a Drow is reason for attack ...
If attacking a drow in town is evil then attackin the undead in town is also evil
Afterall, they are just living impaired ...
I mean really, if attacking is evil then we are ALL evil, and should all be perma-retired because we went evil without a CDQ.
Don't get me wrong, I'll defend your right to not hate drow just as much as I will defend your right to hate them.
I do not agree with this statement. Attacking Undead is not evil. Undead are an abomination.
Also, attacking a goblin or any other monster is not evil. That is self-defense as they are aggresive first.
I think there is a subtle difference there.
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KageKeeper - 7/16/2005 2:51 AM
Also, attacking a goblin or any other monster is not evil. That is self-defense as they are aggresive first.
I think there is a subtle difference there.
Heh I don't think any court in the land would accept the murder of someone who attacked you because you broke into there home as good :)
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On the flip side alignment could dictate that you run drow out of town. Let me explain.
For an LG character of a more noble class (Paladin perhaps), if a group of drow walk into town he might be compelled to try and stop this. If he doesn't, how does he know they won't go on a rampage? There have been 4 attacks on Hlint in recent years by drow. What if he did nothing, and many people died. A perceived evil group walks into town...he might do something. THey could be a threat to the law, and the peace.
It depends largely on the character of the PC, as alignments are only a guideline. Also keep in mind that CG characters do not like neutral or evil characters. They would never attack one who is unarmed, but when have you seen a drow who doesn't carry a weapon (at least in his pack)?
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KageKeeper - 7/15/2005 5:51 PM
Zhofe - 7/15/2005 5:48 PM
Being a Drow is reason for attack ...
If attacking a drow in town is evil then attackin the undead in town is also evil
Afterall, they are just living impaired ...
I mean really, if attacking is evil then we are ALL evil, and should all be perma-retired because we went evil without a CDQ.
Don't get me wrong, I'll defend your right to not hate drow just as much as I will defend your right to hate them.
I do not agree with this statement. Attacking Undead is not evil. Undead are an abomination.
Also, attacking a goblin or any other monster is not evil. That is self-defense as they are aggresive first.
I think there is a subtle difference there.
Undead, huh. A true druid :P Necromancers would disagree.
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How are the undead an abomnation? Just because they aren't like you? Because they kill indescriminantly? Hey, that sounds an awefull lot like the general perception of Drow.
aAnd since necromancy is sanctioned by Lucinda, don't bring in the unnatural life thing. The undead have as much right to life as anyone else.
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Zhofe - 7/15/2005 6:01 PM
How are the undead an abomnation? Just because they aren't like you? Because they kill indescriminantly? Hey, that sounds an awefull lot like the general perception of Drow.
aAnd since necromancy is sanctioned by Lucinda, don't bring in the unnatural life thing. The undead have as much right to life as anyone else.
hahaha..you will *never* convice Luna of that. *chuckles*
Note: I am not offended by any of this. Just trying to add my opinion. At least as how Luna sees it. :)
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Quin'd kill a deader and defend a drow anyday. Just bringing up the ludicrous.
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I would love to see this conversation in game. Then Cole can show the spider shaped scar in his neck. Can show the inn where drow assasins killed people having drinks and laughter. Can show where the portal was that allowed all those drow into hlint to kill many. I have never seen Garent fight like that. If you would have seen him you wouldn't be asking what he does for Hlint besides walk around. Then I would take you to Krandor where a drow assasin attacked me and a friend with a poison arrow. That instance there changed Cole forever. Then we can go into the underdark and ask the drow how they feel about us not likeing them...
Course that would be an in game thing...right?
Edit:forgot to mention Spellguard. That whole town was sacked. Couldn't even get in there.
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And Quin would show you the gates he too has helped defend, and the place were a drow woman fought and died against her brethren and gained no help, and then take you to Krandor where his lover was struck with a similar poison arrow ... and then after that introduce you to Mara and Kaylo and Synaldur, his friends, who did nothing wrong, but suffer anyway.
Arguement goes both ways.
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Steve said: "Heh I don't think any court in the land would accept the murder of someone who attacked you because you broke into there home as good"
Acctually, I forget what state it was in.. one of the eastern ones I'm sure (NY or Mass likely) A guy tried to break into someones house through the skylight, fell through, and landed on an upturned knife on the island in the center of their kitchen.
He sued, and recieved an out of court settlement.
Um.. i guess the moral of this story is... Thats screwed up.
On the other side of the issue is the state of colorado, which passed the "Make My Day" law in the late 80's or early 90's that authorized you to shoot or sick your dogs on anyone that broke into your property.
What a diverse and weird country many of us live in.
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Several people have posted on this thread something to the effect of, if attacking a Drow in town is evil, then so is attacking undead, ogres, orcs, goblins, etc.
With all due respect, I must respectfully disagree (can't you just feel the respect oozing out of this message?).
A couple of reasons, both RP and because of in-game mechanics.
First, if I go out to the Red Light Goblins with the intention of attacking them, I do so because:
1) it's a game, and in order to advance, there need to be monsters against which to gain experience;
2) I know that they're evil because they show up as red when my arrow goes over them (in-game mechanics)
Thus, I know that if I go near them, they will attack me. I will have to defend myself. They are evil. They are irreversibly evil. There's no choice here. If I don't defend myself, I will die.
But if I went to the Red Light Caverns, and the goblins surprised me and only lit up as blue (neutral), then I have a choice. If I wantonly attack them without first investigating, talking to them, etc, then I am evil. Perhaps I might find out they're a new tribe, aren't interested in combat, whatever, etc. Should I still be suspicious? Of course! Good isn't stupid. But if they're lit blue, and I attack them, then I have done the same thing as attacking a Drow in the town simply because he's a Drow. And that's evil.
Some of you might be thinking that I'm taking advantage of the in-game mechanics. Sure. It does speed things up. But even if we didn't have that and had to roleplay encounters like that, the end result would be the same. Undead, goblins, orcs, ogres, etc. would attack nearly most of the time. It's their nature. But good players would wait to see what happened, neutral or evils might charge right in. If those monsters don't attack, then for good players at least, other choices must be made.
Attacking is not good or evil of itself...it's the choices and decisions we make (or assume) along the way, and each particular situation, that dictates whether it might be considered good or evil. Which is why attacking a Drow in town for no reason is evil, but the comparison doesn't work.
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I would say though that that arguement doesn't work....for instance goblins are normally described as chaotic as far as I'm aware, not evil. If you read the handbook there society dosn't look particulary evil but different. Now look at it from this point of view...when the drow attacked Hlint they came in with with weapons drawn magically protected and enhanced etc. And what did the PC's do....we attacked no one tried to stop and talk to them, to welcome them with a cup of tea and a biscut. In the same way when adventures go into monster areas they go in with weapons drawn and magic shields up etc etc and what do the monsters do?....Of course they do exactly the same as us they attacked.
So no I can't agree that PC drows can be regarded as good and attacking them is automatically evil.
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We are talkng in a strictly RP sense, and in a strictly RP sense, the little highight doesn't exist.
In a strictly RP sense it is just as possible that one of those goblins didn't want to fight you, but you decapitated it before it had a chance to defend itself.
What if a DM had been controllng it, and was about to ask for mercy? I had something similar happen to me on another server.
The point is, that attacking something thought of as evil is generally an act considered good.I am sure Garrent would applaud a dwarf chasing a drow out of town, no matter how good the drow was.
Now, in a game mechanic sense, we know that the drow are PCs, and that they are neutral or good, but our characters do not know that, so we act accordingly. We test the waters, we attack them, and if they try and gut us it was bad. If it walks away, it was probably still bad to such a PC, but I don't know many players that will chase after a hated race decides to leave, because afterall, that is what the PC wants.
Alignment has alot to do with motive, and I don't think anyone chases drow out of town just to be a jerk. They do it to protect themselves and those they love.
Now, in game, my character takes a very different approach, and is very open and welcoming. I believe that the people should be able to play either way without any strict consequences unless of course thier attacks are so violent that it is pretty much griefing.
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Replying to both of the previous emails
1) They're evil because I don't have to go in with weapons drawn, I just have to be around them....they attack me regardless...there is no choice involved with them. My whole party could be on a scouting mission and accidentally get to close to these creatuers and we're immediately attacked. I could walk up to them with absolutely no inventory, completely unequipped, telling them I come in peace. They attack me regardless. That's evil behavior. It may be computer-generated behavior, it may be limited behavior, but's it evil behavior.
2) talking in a strictly RP sense? Sure. I like your example. What if a DM had been controlling it and a goblin begged for mercy? As I said in my post, that's when decisions and choices have to be made, especially for good characters. If I was in the Red Light Caverns and a goblin did that, as a good character, I would need to stop attacking. If I ever hear a goblin say that, and i continue attacking when I had a chance to stop, I'd have to say that was an evil act.
The game mechanics faciliate this role-playing to some extent, which is why GM quests are so great because they can throw in surprises like evil creatures that want to surrender, are actually good, etc. But just because it's a game mechanics feature doesn't make it any less relevant for purposes of our discussion.
I'm not sure I agre that "attacking something thought of as evil is generally an act considered good." Garrent might applaud a dwarf chasing a Drow out of town, but that has nothing to be with that act being good or evil. I'm also not sure about your comments about "we test the waters, we attack them." I'm not sure testing the waters by attacking them is a great way to decide if something is good or evil, but I don't think I'm reading your post right, sorry.
I guess my issue is the idea of characters falling back on prejudices with their RP. Let me state clearly, I have no problems with characters disliking, hating other races, etc.It can be great RP, absolutely.
But prejudice and hate are explanations of behavior, but they are not justifications for behavior.
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Okay, and what about goblins that are following people into town? I've seen those killed pretty quick. What if he just wanted water?
What if a GM was controlling that goblin too. Would there even be a chance to say "stop!" before it was dead? No, it wouldn't, and I've seen that very thing happen on another server.
A goblin had surrendered to my character, and wanted to see the town. We go topside, and within 30 seconds he is shot to pieces by well meaning archers. They were just defending their town. They didn't know the goblin had surrendered, they only knew that generally when evil walks into town,it is killed, and we applaud that, and no one thinks of that person as evil.
I believe the PVP rules on this server prevent any PC from taking any actionon another PC that would cause an alignment shift. You're more likely to do something to get you banned.
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I assume the hover color (blue,green,red) is an indication of the character's demeanor. IE, if it's red, then the goblin looks damned mad, and looks like he's gonna come after me. So the disposition does exist, just like a character can look at my health status and say, "You don't look so good."
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Just to pick nits... but if good isn't stupid, then attacking a member of a race that has been consitantly hostile for many thousands of years to EVERY other race it encounters should be smart, and thus, good.
Personally I think the BEST RP for the situation would be for the Drow character to strive to display the qualities that the hostile PC's will find desireable. In this instance I firmly believe that the burden of proof is on the 'victim' and not on the hostile PC.
A single deaad Drow is a victim, a million dead Drow is a well thought out and executed battle strategy.
Bottom line for me is if you want to be easily accepted into society why did you pick a race that MOST pc's have at least acute distrust for, I would imagine half the fun of playing a Drow is the strife and the challenge to become accepted by the surface dwellers. (So you can stick the knife in thier backs at the dramatically appropriate time)
Forget about hover color and the AI factions for hostility for a moment. I happen to like Pit Bulls, my neighbor is terrified of them because of all the bad press they get. He would be far more likely to chuck a rock at a pitbull than to walk up and want to pet it, despite the fact that the dog in question may very well be docile and friendly.
Vyris
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teefal - 7/16/2005 9:07 AM
I assume the hover color (blue,green,red) is an indication of the character's demeanor. IE, if it's red, then the goblin looks damned mad, and looks like he's gonna come after me. So the disposition does exist, just like a character can look at my health status and say, "You don't look so good."
In my humble opinion, the color indicator is nothing more than a game mechanic introduced to make things easier. Not every red creature will automatically try to attack and kill you. Take deer for example. They are set to hostile faction just so that it would be easier for people who hunt them, however they do not attack first nor "look mad."
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as for the atacking a drow is not the same as attacking a goblin or similar monster........how are the drow not similar monsters?
secondly, i've heard it said that it's ok to kill goblins because a majority of goblins you've met run at you and try to seperate your head from your shoulders, well remember that some characters have met with many a drow that is not a PC, as i mentioned before, Lue has seen hundreds of drow that have tried to kill her, now thats hundreds of them, with a fairly large group that has been trailing her for 2 years (game time and actually probobly a lot more then that)and has killed her a few times, she has the scars to prove it.......
and she has met maybe 15 friendly drow........quite honestly the ratio of drow that want her head on a stick and drow that don't is enough that she doesn't like any drow, any drow being nice to her is mearly trying to lure her into a false sense of secutrity to stab her in the back after all
people need to realise that the adventuring population of drow is a very very very small percentage of them, and almost all of the nonadventuring drow are evil, vile, murderous beings, that love to inflict torture, take slaves, and are all around not nice, this is not the kind of race that you wait to see if they are good or bad first
if you locate a couger in your yard, you don't walk up and try and pet it to see if it's friendly, either you scare it off, or you keep your distence
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On another note I have seen this same topic about drow come out on about every world I have played (and more than once on each of them) on and the arguments are always the same.
Personally I believe that a hatred for drow is something perfectly normal and actually is a part of their penalty for gaining much better stats. If a player picks this race, they should expect their character to be treated accordingly.
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MorphlingROR - 7/16/2005 11:31 AM O Personally I believe that a hatred for drow is something perfectly normal and actually is a part of their penalty for gaining much better stats. If a player picks this race, they should expect their character to be treated accordingly.
I think that sums it up nicely :)
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Uh I missed this thread. My PC was the target of the stones. This was really exciting RP. Trying to show who was the mad man, whining around a bit *angel TN face*...
I play a drow, of course I face the consequences... The very point is playing a non-evil drow in a "dynamic" world, where group or individual feelings could possibly evolve. Thank you for this small event.
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Etinfall - 7/15/2005 6:12 PM
Then Cole can show the spider shaped scar in his neck. Then I would take you to Krandor where a drow assasin attacked me and a friend with a poison arrow. That instance there changed Cole forever.
Spellguard: That whole town was sacked.
This is true; the world is still currently under seige by Drow. There are over 51 known victims of the Drow spider scar, Willow included.
Even though Willow has been attacked in her own home nearly killed she still has friends that she knows are Drow. She was rather standoffish with them at first but after talking and wondering about them, they quickly became friends.
Role-play hatred of a race OR class is perfectly normal. If everyone loved each other and respected each other we would be care bears.
We are heroes of Layonara and in this respect there are many types of Role-play and many types of players. Respecting their right to play that class or race accordingly is top priority.
Remember that this is a game and getting heated up or revved up over something that is not in your control is silly. Not everything is in your/our control remember there are real people playing those characters and how you chose to act and Role-play your character may affect that person.
Sending a Tell to the other person to say no hard feelings is a wonderful example of how problems like this can be solved. Again like Rhizome said if you have any real problem take it up with him.
Its our world, we live, we breath, we have the choice to hate or not hate.
Sakura
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I like care bears....
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LoganGrimnar - 7/15/2005 9:24 PM
I like care bears....
MEE TOOO!!! I think we all should hold hands and frolick through a field of Daisys! Then when bad men get in the way, we can have a carebear countdown!
Im feeling abit of negitivity here! Does somebody need hug?
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Funny, I just made this topic (http://'http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=15589&posts=1'), with the joke title "Hands Across Layonara", then read your hug post.
I say we escalate in-game :)
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well, I think this thread is winding down (mercifully!), although I should talk, since my comments on occasion have kept it going somewhat.
Probably best since I think at this point we're just arguing in circles. I agree with what most people have said about RPing how you want, Drows should have it difficult, ect. I'm not arguing for mercy for the Drow, ye gods, gimme a break, or my favorite, "maybe everybody should hold hands" (geez, if I see that line again...). The point I"ve been trying to get at is this:
Some people seem to feel that since the large majority of the Drow race is evil, they have carte blanche to do whatever they want to them, especially since overt violent acts are prohibited by Layo. And I'm not arguing that they can't if they want. Please RP your character. But I think there should be consequences if their actions go over the line, especially with regards to alignment. This is a perfect example of self-righteousness leading to intolerance and evil actions, and it's antithetical to the priciples espoused by the good alignments. Good doesn't mean you can't have hate somebody or have prejudice, but your actions need to be principled. After all, that's what "good" is all about in the D&D/NWN game.
Again, some behavior may be accepted, but it doesn't make the accepted behavior good. Take the Japanese-American internment camps of WWII. Not the proudest moment in U.S. history, but it was accepted by many, although many others spoke out about it.
Ye gods, I'm sorry, I've gone off again when I really meant to just say thanks to everyone and actually go adventuring and slaughter some Drow.
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I think we should let this one die now...
The arguments are extremely nitty-gritty at this point, and the main issue is hardly being adressed anymore. The issue was that more of the general puplic should be less apt to entertain drow companions. Not everyone, not people who are openminded, and certainly not those who sensically RP otherwise.
Personally, I side with the Dev's on this one still. The other arguments seem fairly weak. The alignment issue was a good point to be brought up (but it does not counter discrimination), as well as character stats. From here the most important determining factor is the individual, and this deals with your PC's personality (based on bio, experience, etc). The majority of Vets, and people with a more indepth head-knowledge of layo seem to have lived through many drow catastrophes, and thusly are more wary of drow. Some also accept drow.
There should be a balance, but a tipped balance towards prejudice. Sakura seemed to indicate that the surface, in all actuality, is waging war with them. They just keep coming up in small groups, killing people, then descending to the underdark. It has been ongoing, I would be quite doubtful that ANYONE around Hlint can claim ignorance to this.
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Once more… WOW!!!
This topic seems to be quite interesting. Giving a lot of different perspectives.
Well bottom line is that this RP incident has giving the GM a lot of new information of how players on Layo are right now.
Well. How to RP one or the other thing….being good or evil…In the end it’s the GMs or “The Man” L which are taking the final decision if someone did something stupid.
And I will promise ye that Varka is gonna behave a bit more…NAY!!! Oi cleave ye skull!!