The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Germaine Lorn on July 19, 2005, 09:12:00 PM
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Sorry to bring this up - but I have noticed that some players refer to the DROW as darkies. Whilst this may be "realistic" in a roleplay sense, drow being dark skinned, I think it might be a good idea to discourage this term.
My reasoning is simply: in RL this is offensive. As someone so correctly posted, drow hatred is a species thing not a skin colour thing. Whilst it is true that PCs would and could make comments about skin colour in reference to drow, I think we have to be very careful here.
Germaine Lorn
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I have actually NEVER seen this reference ... though I have seen the reference "Dark One"
I understand where you are coming from though ... but I will not put an opinion ... as I don't really know where the line should be.
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I'm not gonna touch this one. *walks away with hands up*
hehe
k, one edit, i can't restrain :
this thread is utterly silly, especially the whole bleeding hearts attitude.
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*cricks his knuckles* Okay, here yah go...
I believe "Darkie" or "Darkies" as my character has so aptly named the dark elf race, is totally reasonable and shouldn't be banned from the saying of. My reasoning? He calls elves Elfies. He'll call Dark Elves Darkies.
It's purely RP, mind you, and I have no problem what so ever with anyone of African descent in the slightest.
Therefore, Turor shall continue running around, now that you have it in your head that it is purely RP, calling drow Darkies, or whatever else comes to mind. Perhaps Scumbucket shall be the next one.
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Oh dear - missed the point I think. Elfies has never been used in RL. I also never asked it to be banned. The idea was to show some respect.
Is very easy to say no offense if it doesn't offend YOU, however that doesn't mean it doesn't offend anyone else. Do you call mummies ragheads?
Its just roleplaying? Just a joke? It may be innocent but it is very easy for someone who IS racist to use roleplaying as an excuse.
Terms such as "Raping monsters" can be explained in terms of roleplay, but they may upset people on the server, so they avoided. Please have the good sense to see that the same applies to the above.
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Germaine has a point I think.
If a term is offensive to *anyone* then that term should not be used.
Obviously within reason. The term "darkie" does have a RL connotation that is highly offensive. Perhaps it is best if it is not used to describe a race of characters in game.
Is that too much to ask?
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I have always thought dark ones and darkers and I suppose darkies was referring to the underdark.
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(Insert my opinion, only my opinion disclaimer here)
I am kinda confused...
If he had been referring to another PC who was playing a dark skinned HUMAN character I think you would have a case for racism, and unless he happens to know the specific ethnicity of the RL person behind the PC I would have to assume it's his characters RP way of voiceing his IC racial bias against the Drow race. I personally don't see anything wrong with it.
I seem to get the impression that for some folks the line between in-game events and RL events has a bit more overlap than for myself. Cant we just assume that if someone is referring to someone else on the game as 'darkie' and that person happens to be a drow that it's RP? Next we're going to have an approved list of acceptable terms and a week long course in gendo-racial sensitivity. Might as well rename the place Politically Correctonara. Aside from a few people who play here that I KNOW I haven't got a clue whether the other person is black, white, asian, mexican, iranian, botswanan, zulu, swiss, czec, lithuanian, ukranian, chineese, japaneese, leboneese, portuguese, frickazee or zip-de-do or any poairing of any of millions of other possible etnic combinations, nor do I care one iota, and I bet 99.99999999999% of anyone else here doesn't either.
But I bet we're pretty safe, for the most part people that are interested in RP are intelligent, open-minded , literate and educated. Not your typical skin-head.
If you honestly think it was offensive file a grievance with Rhizome, if he can't find a diplomatic solution to it than I'm betting it's a lose/lose situation.
Vyris
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On the same token, we must now call Dwarves "Altitude Challenged" ...
At first, I supported Germaine's point totally ... but once the subject of raping monsters and that anything offensive should be avoided set me off a bit.
First off, a possible racial slur that is easily enough explained in a tell, has absolutly no comparison to a violent physical action that leaves scars both mental and physical for life. There is a major difference in the level of personal violation between a mean word and a violent act ... Now, burning crosses on Drow lawns, lynching them on sight, or just plain beating them to death whenever possible I could see as making this comparison. Especially if all the drow haters started running around in white robes ... but I won't get into that.
Secondly, whether the player is actually racist or not is none of our business really. Mind you, I am not saying that racism is good, but, if the player does not allow that to color his actions here, then it shouldn't matter as far as server rules go.
Thirdly, I do infact believe that a better term than "darkies" could be used for Drow. Honestly, I was a bit surprised when I heard about it, and just thought you were being a bit silly, but since the player who does this confirmed it, I can throw that voluntary ignorance out the window. I also however think it serves as a good parralell into what the Drow are supposed to be, that is, universally hated. It makes sense to pull on real life experience to create such a hate against a race created for the sole purpose of being hated. However, I won't try and force, or even request such a changein a characters speech for one simple reason.
It is HIS problem what his beliefs/practices/ideals are. Not mine.
To be perfectly honest, I don't really care what you say/do/talk about around me. I have the option of ignoring you, or of simply having a different opinion. If the person next to you is a stupid biggoted jerk, chances are you can't change him anyway, and making him censor himself is just making him angrier and more biggoted, and when he finally gets tired of being censored, bad things will happen.
Now ... go enjoy your role-playing, and try to figure out which side I am on in this arguement ... I'll be workin on the latter for atleast a week now ...
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Thank you Vyris! I deleted at least four replies trying not to rant, because I can get carried away.
Acacea also happily refers to them as darkies, and she is not even the loud mouthed drow-spitting dwarf. She's not an automatic drow hater (her priorities are as such that if they're okay to her and are fun to be around, it's all good), it's just that they're, you know. Dark skinned. Dark elves. From the underDark. But I'm explaining her INgame tendencies that people may find prejudiced IN game.
I agree that better terms can be used for them, and that more "enlightened" people than her and the loudmouth would be more polite, but the fact that people want to cross that into real life is a little strange. Especially because the first post made about it is not even to complain about being offended (which I still think would be silly and could be explained), but to be afraid of offending someone.
"Garent! Help! Darky attack, darky attack! *mimes being shot with arrow and falls down* Shot by the darkies! ...What, you're just going to walk away? Argh!"
Frankly, if it's that easy, I think everyone could use a little offending. (although this isn't the place for it, of course.) I get some on a daily basis and it's done wonders for me.
(Hah? Guess not.)
Edit: But if people go for this, I would also now move that halflings and gnomes no longer be referred to as "wee" for both implying that they are in some way deficient by their lack of stature (also don't say "lack" of stature like they're missing something) and for bathroom giggles reasons. Don't say Vertically Challenged, either. Just pretend there is no difference. Seriously.
Second edit: I wouldn't have felt that I needed to say this before this thread, but by the way, no I don't judge people by their race/appearance/gender/even species, but rather on the "Are you an idiot, or not?" scale. *grins* I don't find enough people in the "not" to limit myself! *practical?* (Well, with the added edits, I've gone and made a rant anyway. Hurray! Acacea's owner is not as well liked as Acacea!)
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*points up* What Vyris said.
Harlas
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Vyris spoke for me :o
Id agree with you germaine if one called a dark human "darkie" but calling a drow darkie is just playful or good RP in my eyes
my opinion of course
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you can't call halflings vertically challenged though, because they are the proper hight it's you silly humans that are too tall
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The terms used are of no importance; all that's significant is the emotion behind them. Think of the dreaded "N" word, and of how it can be used with no racial significance whatsoever. Some people (black or white) use it as a sort of amiable slang greeting. The use and the person using it give the word weight, not the word itself.
Racism has special significance in D&D environments because, in some cases (orcs, goblins, drow, etc) such generalizations can actually be accurate. Drow in Hlint shouldn't be killed on sight, but they are members of a race that is predominantly evil in nature, which should also be taken into consideration. In RL, there is no similar situation; people are evil, not entire races. If, in the course of RPing in-character racism towards any race, the players get a little wound up and push too hard, one of them (or a bystander) should have the good sense to send a tell to get things back on track.
This can also be done in character. Gretchen recently witnessed an argument in Hlint between a couple of her fellow dwarves and a drow that seemed likely to end in violence. She was able to defuse the argument and help end the whole situation reasonably (and with some damned fine RP from all involved). She wasn't able to disabuse the two dwarves of their distrust of drow, but she did get them to promise not to provoke them quite so much in Hlint.
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"...Politically Correctonara..."
Now that is funny, I don't care who you are. If you can't laugh at that...
*Walks away laughing at the Vyris*
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Sheeesh this is even worse than the law suit to ban the terms "master" and "slave" in the computer hardware vocabulary. Seriously people, it is a game....
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yeah, what Ar7 said. Give it a break. If I see a pink guy, I'll likely
call him Pinky. If I see black guy I'll likely call him blacky.
It's a game with killing and murder in mass, some racism between
the races shouldn't really matter.
People have been calling dwarves names for their size for like forever,
so a color thing for a drow(who are in general utterly hated) doesn't
even stop me to think for a split second to think about if I may hurt
someones feelings when calling the drow darky, blacky, heavy mascara-elf
or whatever.
If you choose to play drow, expect hate and racism or go play another race.
Simple as that.
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Disclaimer: The following is my opinion alone and does not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of the Layonara GM Team, the Management or anyone else in an official capacity.
Here's the deal, folks:
It's misguided and dare I say wrong to apply 21st Century Earth perspectives and morality to a mystical fantasy world.
For crying out loud....we are all (well, most of us are) running around and killing sentient creatures with fully-formed languages, societies, and so forth.
In the real world, racial/ethnic stereotypes and prejudices have been allowed to thrive for one very basic reason....because "they" look different. People have an inherent distrust of that which is different, and unfortunately, in the weak-minded, that is enough cause for lies, mistrust and even hate. But in reality, there is no accurate description of white people as a collective group, or black people as a collective group or asian people as a collective group. Each group has its share of honest, hard-working people, scholars, criminals, good people, bad people and so forth. There is really no "archetype" for any one group. Stereotypes yes, archetypes no. In reality, the only true difference between the peoples of this world is their appearance.
But Layonara is not the real world. D&D is not the real world. NWN is not the real world. This is a (pay attention...important word coming) fantasy setting, populated by people, creatures and beasts that only exist on paper and in legend in the real world. And unlike the real world, each race IS archetypical. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but as a society, each racial group does in fact fit a particular mold. Elves, especially Gray Elves, are aloof and snooty, with fair features and nimble movements. Dwarves are a proud race, taking pride in their prowess in combat, the drinking of ales and of course their beards while making up for their short stature by a generally rough-around-the-edges attitude about....pretty much everything. Halflings are...well, halflings :). Each race shares a common set of characteristics, both physical and societal, that applies to arguably 99% of their total population.
Which brings us to the Drow...As a society, they're evil. Again...EVIL. They're treacherous. Their society is one of mistrust, violence, alliances of convenience and eternal struggles for power. The rewards are hard-fought, and the price of failure is severe. The Drow society actually takes conscious steps to weed out weakness (i.e. goodness) in its population. There are reasons the surface races (and some Underdark races) hate and fear the Drow, but NONE of those reasons have anything to do with their skin color. That is merely a convenient way to identify them.
Which brings us to the term "darkie". OK, here on Earth, that particular label is about 50 years out of vogue and reflects an attitude of a less-elightened era....one marked by ignorance and fear of differences. That term has no place in the year 2005 on Earth.
But in 1386 on Layonara....why not?
Let's remember folks that we're playing characters within a fantasy setting. The knowledge, judgement and morality that we possess here in the real world are not necessarily present in this fantasy setting. We are playing characters, and those characters grew up in THAT society....not ours here in the real world.
Now, if you as a player have a good reason to play your character as being blind and accepting to all races and to be a champion of equality and treating folks as people and not as a skin color, ear shape or height, then by all means go right ahead and do it. But it is not wrong to hate and fear the Drow, because the Drow as a society are evil. This is not the perception of a few ignorant individuals...it's a fact...at least as much of a fact as can be in a fantasy environment.
All this talk lately of whether one should or shouldn't be verbally abusive to Drow, whether it's right to judge them on skin color and so forth (again applying modern day, real world morality) is really missing the mark. There's only really two "shoulds" in all of this:
Everyone should play their character.
Everyone should remember that this is a game.
Edit: And just so everyone's clear, it's unlikely you'd ever hear a character of mine use the term "darkie". It's much easier to spit out the word "Drow" laden with venom and hatred. But there are IC reasons why my character wouldn't say "darkie". Primarily, he'd never even think of it.
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both zerpa and I were put off by a halfing repeatedly using the term "darkie" last night. Perhaps it has to do with where you live, but "darkie" is definitely used as a pejorative against african-americans, as would "spook", etc. While not as reviled as the N word, it's not a nice thing to say. Try it out yourself, ask a RL black couple if they spend most of their time with other "darkies" or not.
We assumed the halfing didn't know the RL term. Now as I read people defend the use of it, it's disappointing.
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teefal - 7/20/2005 6:09 AM
both zerpa and I were put off by a halfing repeatedly using the term "darkie" last night. Perhaps it has to do with where you live, but "darkie" is definitely used as a pejorative against african-americans, as would "spook", etc. While not as reviled as the N word, it's not a nice thing to say. Try it out yourself, ask a RL black couple if they spend most of their time with other "darkies" or not.
We assumed the halfing didn't know the RL term. Now as I read people defend the use of it, it's disappointing.
Yes it is insulting if one man calls another man "darkie" in real life, only because of his skin colour. But honestly how is it insulting if a....please pay serious attention to every word here...an imaginery halfling in a fantasy world calls another imaginery character "darkie"? Please tell me, how was it insulting to you as a person? The term "darkie" was not aimed against you as a person in absolutly no way.
Honestly, I understand that for some of you this is a serious issue, but it simply makes me laugh. I am not ignorant, I know what racism is and how serious it is, but this whole topic is plain silly.
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okay, so if there was a race in game called Nighouls, and people called them "Niggers", in character, then you'd be fine with it?
Again, this is not about tolerance of Drow in game. This is about real life humans, and how words can hurt whether you have a rationalization or not.
googled it: http://www.answers.com/darkies
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I believe Germaine and teefal have a valid point.
I fulllly realize the RP point of view and that Layonara is NOT the real world.
But the truth is, the term "darkie' is highly offensive term in the United States. If you do not think so, please ask an African-American how they would feel if it came up in conversation. Regardless of how you RP the phrase in Layonara, the truth is that the word invokes powerfully negative emotions in some people in real life even when they just hear it. They may be good sports in Layonara and not say anything or complain when they read it in game, but that does not stop them from feeling the negative emotion that wells up inside.
I just do not feel that the term is necessary enough in the context of Layonara (you can come up with another term if you want) to justify possibly ruining another player's good time for the evening because of cultural insensitivity. I don't subscribe to the policitically correct view of the world entirely. There are some forums where discussion of heated issues of the real world that invoke intense emotions should be vented in an unedited manner, but this IS A GAME and should be fun for all players. Some level of cultural sensitivity should be employed.
Again, I just do not think the benefit to roleplay is worth the benefit. How do players who use that word feel about using it when it makes another player (not character) feel upset or pull him out of the fantasy world he is enjoying back to the ugliness of the real world. I would not feel right about disrupting his fun. I would draw an analogy to swearing not being allowed on Layonara for many of the same reasons. In many households across the United States, "darkie" is a swear word.
Things to think about, Just my to cents...
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If racism and degrading language could be stopped by banning words, it would have been years ago. It is a fact of life that people of different political observation, religions, colours, etc. clash ever so often blaming each other for everything going wrong. Probably because it is easier to blame someone else than to admit that you are doing something wrong yourself. One of the effects is that degrading languages exist between these different groups. But it will always exist no matter what we do, which can be illustrated by a simple example.
E.g. Denmark needed workers in the 60’s and imported Turks to do it, they where at that time termed “foreign workers” for obvious reasons. Years later this term had become negative and were replaced by “immigrants” and children of these immigrants where termed “2nd and 3rd generation immigrants” still a logical choice even though it would become more and more difficult as more generations came. Again this become a negative and degrading and was replaced by “people with other ethnic origin than Danish”. The point is that even though all off these terms are correct and not offensive in any way they where used degrading by some and was abandoned due to political correctness. I bet that in ten years this last term will be replaced by something even longer.
Furthermore, it is a fact that a Negro has a darker skin than the rest of the human population, and it is therefore logical to refer to a Negro as dark, black, brown (brownie?) etc. as with the Europeans who have been referred to as “the white man” which is not always meant as something positive, to my opinion pink would be a better description though. To my opinion there is no way around the fact that we need to have names for different ethnic groups, and that these names will be used in a degrading way by some, we just have to live with it and ignore the ones who do.
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If you are offended by some one role playing and using the term "darkie" to describe drow, or offended when some role plays anger toward PC goblins, orcs, half-giants, etc. then you may want to take a break from the game. This is fantasy. This is a game. It is role play. The GM staff has made it very clear that playing certain races have hinderances. Racism is one of them. From my experience the RP on the server regarding the distrust/hatred between the races has been kept in check and been in good RP taste.
I am VERY confident that if someone was taking it a bit far, and the offended player sent a tell and asked for the person to lay off... that person would. And if they truly were out of line the GM staff would take care of the situation.
As a goblin player I enjoy when a person first shows distrust and anger towards my character. It makes for good RP for them to learn to trust him or not. If someone wanted to hate him just because he was goblin I'd take no offense. Would that be racism? Yes. Is racism wrong? Yes, but it can make for some good RP in a fantasy setting.
Just my 2 cents.
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Well I look at it this way Sony EQ/EQ2 has way way way more players, Sony is way more conserned about PC then we are and the company and EQ community call Dark Elves Darkies and I don't think their has ever been a single complaint for the MILLIONS of people that have played EQ. Why should we assume the few people playing here are going to be offended? As stated above most here are more intelligent and interested in RP and able to seperate IC from RL then the typical EQ player. I really hope we are not going to say the EQ community is more mature and better Role players then the average Layo player.
My characters have no problem with the drow and as such I typicaly call them drow, but they have no issue with others calling them darkies and if I were to do a drow hater that would pry be the term I would use to refer to them. I don't think it is perticularly offensive. I have been called names in refrence to my skin color in RL when I was a odd one out. Did I get mad or offended? No not really I told them my name and it was cool after that. I think that darkie or lighty or whity what ever is pry the least of the plethra of names out their, and if they were truly trying to offend they could do better then darkie or whitey.
And I have servered in the military and traveled all over the world and rarly encountered people that would be truely offended by this. Sure a very few might be but someone will be offended by almost anything. I am not saying its the best solution but we need to be practicle and fair, as well as draw a line between RL and the game. If you can't do that you might not want to play for a bit and go watch the horrid movie Mazes and Monsters and think things over. :o P.S. For those that don't know Mazes and Monsters is based on a true story of a kid that played DnD and went a little crazy and thought it was real and killed someone I think it was a real life friend but I don't remember the RL story for sure.
Say it with me. It is just a game and does not have any effect on my life outside the game. But again this is all my opinion.
Also if you want to not offend anyone you might want to think that for some people and if you think hard you can come up with a talk radio person or two that is against PC and die hard supporters of free sepach. TO those people and those that listen to them and believe like they do saying not to use darkie is an attack on thier free sepach and their rights and their for highly offensive. So in tyring to not offend someone you just offended someone else. The whole thing is just silly either way.
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Harloff - 7/20/2005 4:56 PM
Furthermore, it is a fact that a Negro has a darker skin than the rest of the human population,
By Negro I'm guessing you mean someone with a heritage from africa?
If so, I can say it is not a fact that a Negro has darker skin than
the rest of the human population. There are places where people have
as dark or maybe even darker skin than someone with an african
heritage. Sri Lanka is one place.
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Frendh - 7/20/2005 5:44 PM
Harloff - 7/20/2005 4:56 PM
Furthermore, it is a fact that a Negro has a darker skin than the rest of the human population,
By Negro I'm guessing you mean someone with a heritage from africa?
If so, I can say it is not a fact that a Negro has darker skin than
the rest of the human population. There are places where people have
as dark or maybe even darker skin than someone with an african
heritage. Sri Lanka is one place.
Are there other kinds of negros? According to my dictionary negros are black people from Africa. And yes a negro has a heritage from Africa but not all that have a heritage from Africa have dark skin e.g. Egyptians and Algerians that was the reason why I didn't refer to them "as people with African heritage". And I am aware of the fact that the negros have varying skin colour and that some other people have dark skin to that wasn't my point. I was trying to say that political correctness leads nowhere and it doesn't help anyone.
Yes there are problems with racism, but it can't be solved by banning words. The words aren't the problem narrow minded people and ignorance is.
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lol I didn't ask it to be banned. READ AGAIN - I don't think that would work. I asked for sensitivity. And by the way racism is not just from skinheads. There are planty of educated, intelligent bigots. Unfortunately some will be roleplayers.
However in my defence, I did say it was an opinion. If you don't agree thats absolutely fine by me. The reason I brought it up here rather that in-game is because it was a matter I thought should be discussed, not rules I expected to be imposed. I think telling me to "go play elsewhere" isn't really appropriate.
Hopefully that makes my position clear.
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Look, now that we're getting into skin colors and point-by-point rebuttals of what race (in RL) is darker, I think we're missing the larger point.
Whether we like it or not, words have meaning and, to a certain extent, power. Even in a RP fantasy world (yes, we all understand it's a "fantasy world"). And the line that "I'm just role-playing my character" can work some of the time, but not always.
For example, why not just allow curse words? After all, can't we just go to Leanthar and the GMS and say, hey, I"m role-playing my character...my character curses...got nothing to do with the real world...this is just fantasy...so please let me use all the curse words I want to?"
Or why can't we say that our character is a racist and would use racist terms to people he might meet in game. I mean, after all, aren't i just role-playing a character? What harm would racial epiethets cause since it's in a fantasy world?
The bottom line is: Layonara is two communities, both a "fantasy" community and an online, real-world community. And while there are some obvious distinctions between the two, the two are very closely linked. And that's why certain actions, certain behaviors and certain words are not allowed. Our real world online community has decided not to allow those behaviors and words in the fantasy world.
Obviously, there's a lot of gray areas. Does the term "Darky" meet the test? I always use the "first impression" test, and I must admit that when I first saw it, I was very surprised, but that's just me. Trust me, I understand some of the reasoning -- Dark Elf, Darky, Elf, Elfie, whatever. Fine and good. But it does make me slighly uneasy, and in my view this is probably where the anonymity of the Internet works against us, not for us. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone is calling for any banning.
What Germaine said about using sensitivity is a good idea, and players should use make more use of TELLS to communicate about these things. And I'm pleased to hear that most have stated that they would respond in their RP accordingly if they received such a TELL...that's how a community works.
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I play one of the most offensive characters out there, yet I don't drop anything racial. It's a thin line and people are here to have fun. I am TOTALLY against any politically correct asinine change to the rulebooks on this subject, but people just need to learn to use their heads and think a little before they go out and ressurect racial slurs here. I try to avoid any modern-day colloquialisms in my character's speech. The main thing we need to be sure of is that our fun doesn't overlap the fun of other's.
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*Rereads the thread for the 3rd time while grumbling*
NO, no, no! ThunderPants, us Half-Elf bastard are the perfect size :p
Case in point Germaine, bastard is or more to the point, was just a term of defining a child outside wedlock...a very long time ago. T'was then used by biggets...yer avarage pea-brain, stupid, ignoranus that is a racist, as an insult. Now, not using said term leaves that word with the definition the racist left it? Are you seeing my point?
Kind of easy to proclaim you didn't want the term to be banned when everything you wrote about it clearly states you do not want it used, nay? The very least you could do is say that, nothing wrong with something bothering you so much that you would rather it didn't exist...but jeez, fess-up.
As for you leaving, all I read was people telling you that, well in condense terms: You don't like you can get...which isn't the best answer either *sighs*
Personally I don't see anything wrong with calling Drows: Darkies, since this is a make believe fantasy world. I think t'is been long enough since Blacks in America, because we are mainly talking about Americain cultural racial insults here, where insulted with that. I would actually prefer the terms main definition now a days be racist insult regarding Drows. And this isn't about trying to cover-up or change history but making words evolve and not stagnate in the past.
I would see one with calling a drow a negro or a niger as I don't see how that can fit in a even remotly way to JRR Tolkiens works.
On an IG and RL personal point of view, calling a drow darky, from a rude barrel with limbs and an empty head or anyone is nothing more then a bigget insult. So yeah, like Connor said, you want to spit on someone, before crying victory, dex roll check from you and the one being spit on, then you can actually say you spit on the drow. As for the pictures, *phffff* bout as immature as it gets *shrugs*
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Imperious - 7/20/2005 7:30 PM Look, now that we're getting into skin colors and point-by-point rebuttals of what race (in RL) is darker, I think we're missing the larger point.
Whether we like it or not, words have meaning and, to a certain extent, power. Even in a RP fantasy world (yes, we all understand it's a "fantasy world"). And the line that "I'm just role-playing my character" can work some of the time, but not always.
For example, why not just allow curse words? After all, can't we just go to Leanthar and the GMS and say, hey, I"m role-playing my character...my character curses...got nothing to do with the real world...this is just fantasy...so please let me use all the curse words I want to?"
Or why can't we say that our character is a racist and would use racist terms to people he might meet in game. I mean, after all, aren't i just role-playing a character? What harm would racial epiethets cause since it's in a fantasy world?
The bottom line is: Layonara is two communities, both a "fantasy" community and an online, real-world community. And while there are some obvious distinctions between the two, the two are very closely linked. And that's why certain actions, certain behaviors and certain words are not allowed. Our real world online community has decided not to allow those behaviors and words in the fantasy world.
Obviously, there's a lot of gray areas. Does the term "Darky" meet the test? I always use the "first impression" test, and I must admit that when I first saw it, I was very surprised, but that's just me. Trust me, I understand some of the reasoning -- Dark Elf, Darky, Elf, Elfie, whatever. Fine and good. But it does make me slighly uneasy, and in my view this is probably where the anonymity of the Internet works against us, not for us.
I couldn't have said it any better.
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It isn't because one acts like something doesn't exists that it doesn't.
And the more laws you have to contain a society the less free to think and act that society has.
Both where said better and wiser people then I, unfortunatly I don't remember the names but their ideas are in me.
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Freemen
I appreciate that you did not go for some of the lazy stock responses I got. However, I am not going to "fess up" to being some sort of word banning tyrant. Posting what you did encourages those who disagree with me to see me in that light though. So thanks a bunch.
Asking for people to consider the effects of what they say is not the same as wanting a law banning it. I was posting an opinion and asking the community what they thought, not asking for a vote on whether words should be banned or not.
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Okay.
I did not realize that the term Darkie was in common use in North America. I'm from an isolated community in Northern Canada where everyone gets along, and there's no mean talk anywhere.
I am still unsure of how someone can take the term 'Darkie', when used against a drow -- A fictional, not real character at all in any way what so ever -- and dig up offense from it as a player. I just can't see how that's possible.
Of course, if I was using the term 'Darkie' against a drow or group of drow and someone sent me a Tell in regards to stopping, I would honor it and back off a bit. The word 'Drow' would be used with as much venom as it could, though, and I'd probably find another 'vulgar dwarven term' to use against the murderous, treacherous vile creatures.
I will not treat this as a red light or even a yellow light in any way and will continue to RP my dwarf as I see fit unless someone sends me a tell directly requesting I stop the "bad talk". Trouble is, with my little ball of muscley hate, there aren't many words stopping him from running around town spitting on people. :)
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And I guess on that note before I become some sort of pariah for opening my mouth - I am abandoning this post before I find myself burned at the virtual stake :)
Germaine Lorn
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They would have to burn me too. I understand what you are saying and I think Imperious did say it best.
Common sense. This is a game, yes. But it is played by real people with real feelings. Sometimes things are offensive. Does it offend me? No. Should there be a rule? No. There are enough rules. Just use common sense. *shrugs*
And I certainly do not think jumping on anyone for stating their opinion is correct.
Can't we all just get along? :)
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http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=15743&posts=1
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Well, L has settled the matter. And I like it.
Listen, I will accompany the body politic, whatever the decision was, because no little word here or there is really going to make a difference to me enjoying the game.
But here are somethings perhaps to consider?
Racisim/hostile work environment/harassment law is identified as, "comments, actions, or things that a REASONABLE AND PRUDENT person would find offensive..."
Calling a dark elf, "darkie" in a computer game. Hmmm. Well, the question has been brought up.
What if it's used by another dark elf character? What if the user is actually black? Does it change the parameters? We have situations of possibly offending someone off the chart.
We rapidly degenerate into banning sharp weapons because they're offensive to some, and the F/LDCLU (Fantasy/Layonara Dwarven Cilvil Liberty Union) and EADL (Elven Anti-defamation League) begin to stand up.
Tension has a roleplay with the way races are constructed.
I'm Duradin Fireaxe. And my best friend in game is an Elf...
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Imperious said it best. I agree completely.
As far as I know, nobody has said (or even implied), "Don't play racial hatred in game". Personally, I'm reacting to the OOC talk condemning the community for not RPing discrimination more. I'm also personally disappointed with the "you and your rules, you silly politically correct overreacters" vibe that's going on too.
Yeah, political correctness is a pain in the ass, and "vertically challenged" and "sanitation engineer" are over the top. But when it comes to slurs against groups that have suffered, such as african-americans and jews, I'll always speak up. Both of these groups have suffered horribly within my parent's lifetime, and it continues to this day. To me, it's just kindness to avoid conjuring up the spectre of race hatred that words like "darkie" invoke.
And for those who think we're being silly, have a look at withoutsanctuary.com and play the movie.
Warning, though: this thing's pretty heavy.
And before you say, "That was then, this is now" ... race hate is very much alive in America, though not quite as obvious as before. We live within an hour of one of the largest Klu Klux Klan operations in America (yeah, Pennsylvania.)
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dfiremann - 7/20/2005 5:08 PM
I'm Duradin Fireaxe. And my best friend in game is an Elf...
Pssst! Half-elf
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Arggh, ye bloody bastard! (eep!), I mean, er, half elf!
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I did say I wasn't going to post again. But I suspect whatever goes on from my post maybe be attributed to me anyway.
My intention was not to accuse those who roleplay racism as racists. That would be reactionary and it would be wrong.
I am very happy to play with strangers, who I share a trust with, to respect each other and to share a collective space with. With no actual identity revealed it would be easy to use this space an opportunity for personal attacks. This has not been my experience. I have found the players in Layonara to be openminded, respectful of their characters behaviour on other and generally good eggs (not that I associate eggs with being good :P )
I would ask the community to leave this debate as is. For totally selfish reasons. Hey I wanna have a bit of fun on-line without being approached as the starter of the dabate-that-will-not-rest.
For those of you on both sides of this virtual fence, I am glad to know that there are people out there who gie a damn as much as I do.
Germaine Lorn
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Well said, to Germaine? I can somewhat understand the concern, and was just irritated at the start because Acacea is so playfully irreverant that it was a bit of a jolt to see a thread in which people say she could be (and has been, apparently) offending other people OUT of character, when I haven't received any PM's or tells about it. I was a little on the defensive when I wasn't really being attacked (just poked a bit). ;)