The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rayenoir on July 21, 2005, 04:05:00 AM
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Tonight, I went with a group of friends to Xantril. My character, Ars Lifbahn, went with Kaizer, Sand, Bruenor, and Tomi, to (I can't spell the name of the place but, it started with a W)'s tomb. My character used invisibility so that we could skip across the continent to this crypt, and we made our way in (and admittedly, an 8th level character in the middle of Xantril flanked by level 15-17 characters is questionable enough, even if they are friends in-game). We spent three and a half hours there fighting through zombies into and out of the dungeon, and in the duration thereof, lost all regard for roleplaying and the rule against camping. I can't speak for the others, and I don't mean to try to lessen the impact, but I feel the reason why this happened was because I was too eager to get into the rich experience and large gold and item rewards of passing in and out of the place, and then got lost in the near-mindless grind of it. We were no longer roleplaying as the server is meant for, we had started to play it as if it were an action server. While I mean no offense to those that enjoy such, that's not what Layonara is about. It was not my intent, but I realize now that had we not been noticed by the GMs doing their jobs, we likely would have returned to the Central and West servers with ill-gotten gains in our characters' pockets and on our character sheets, which is unfair to you people.
I initially thought that they didn't stick closely enough to what is laid out in the forum about giving warnings to begin with...(though I think if they had dropped a hydra on us as it says, we may just have tried to kill it too...) but we had indeed been in for two hours already. Why they didn't stop us at that point, as they had the logs to look over, I do not know. Nevertheless, after observing us for another hour and a half, concluding (most likely rightfully so) that if they didn't step in, we wouldn't stop, their avatars appeared in the dungeon before us to make us see what we really were doing, which was breaking the rules against camping.
Both sides were speechless at first, the GMs from watching how long we had gone on, and we for not having realized all along what we were doing. They suggested a reprimand in the way of removal of the experience we had gained while there, as well as writing this apology to you all and a 3-day ban. I bristled at first at the latter two, as I thought that undoing what we had spent so much time doing by taking back the experience, gold, and items that we'd found was enough of a rebuke, as well as the fact that I feel it went without saying that we wouldn't do such a thing again. But after a bit of discussion (and I apologize again to the GMs who were present, they can identify themselves if they wish to) I understood that I was giving them needless hassle, that what they suggested was not at all a hard response to what had occurred.
The GMs do a really great job to make the Layonara community what it is, and so do all of you. That's why in the end, I agreed to the apology (and I honestly do feel bad that I gave them a hard time about it and the ban). I'm sorry that greed, albeit subconsciously, for experience points and gold and desire to get ahead, overtook the roleplaying which makes this such a good server to play on, and abused the hard work that the people involved have put into it.
See you in three days.
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Higher levels travelling with lower levels has never really been a problem so far as I have seen ... but sitting in a dungeon for 3 hours, any dungeon, at any level, is not good .... but I'm sure you know that by now.
It takes alot to come here and admit that though ... and a smaller person would have left the server or continued to argue to a full ban ...
You have learned though, and cooperated, and will do the community well because of that.
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Maybe something has to be done to the dungeon in question? I mean level 15-17 characters sitting in a crypt on the east server for hours sounds kind of weird, especially since east was designed for epic characters.
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Edited: I decided to not bend over backwards this time... no apology... sorry for disappointing you all. This is for the last time, ridiculous.
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These kinds of things happen to the best of us. Don't get too worked up over it, just remember not to do it again.
See you guys when you get back. (I'll keep Mara occupied if you aren't around. :))
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Well folks, I too am one of those involved. Ars did pretty much lay out what occurred and there is no excuse for what we did. We all made bad choices there and those who didn't make any choices, they just followed along. Kaizer has been to the entrance before but was unable to get in. With the help of the different classes we were able to get past the guards and make entry into the dungeon. We were all in awe of the amounts of monsters to fight and the experience we received. We took it slow at first and some fell. We used our skills as a team. We cleared the area a couple of times before each of us knew what we had to do. After a couple of runs we became a perfect oiled machine. After a few close calls to dying, some of us had let a few choice word slip out. I believe our intentions to switch from party talk to normal talk was not hide the fact that we were there but not to attract attention of the words we were using. After some time we became less talkative and we weren't saying anything. It appeared that we all knew what was next and everyone knew their job. I know.. even captain obvious would know this is camping at this point, however we contiuned to camp.
Hind sight is 20/20. Some were asking why werent we given a warning.... I believe they did. Bruno and kai were fighting the same two deaders and Bruno lost most of his hit points and kai stepped in to cover him. kai began to loose hp extremly fast too. He turned and ran, after gaining several feet he was struck dead. I was thinking to myself at this point, the sun is almost up and I need sleep. I should just port back to town and sleep but no... I was resurected and I was happy. I only had to wait two minutes to play and earn some more xp and coin.
As my eyes adjusted after the nice white flash of returning I noticed two other people standing next to Kaizer. My heart stopped, I was unable to breathe and my hands became stone objects that I couldn't move with my mind. At that point reality came fast. I knew I/We were doing something wrong. My mind flooded with the posibilities of the retrobution of my acts. Needless to say after a fair and just punishment of a 3 day ban, I feel my actions will in the future will be made with better choices. I know we all have camped from time to time and we all have helped others gain a fast level here and there but, what I have done was go overboard and I realize I am wrong, I do appologize to each and everyone of you... Especially the DM's for all their hard work.
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Edited out.
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Welcome to the darkside... BWA HA HA HA HA... Erm, just kidding. *waves* See yah in 3 days, Arse. Hope you can build me another really really good ring.
Edit: Or two!
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Ok. Now I know what you got banned for. Should have started with this thread I guess. Well, camping is camping and punishment fits the crime.
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Well as the last one of the criminals here to apologize, there's not much I can say that hasn't already been said..So with that, I am terribly sorry for breaking some ground rules of the server I do feel that the punishment fits the crime.. Which is why I suggested it for myself in the first place. So umm yea *raises hands and yells* LET THE STONING BEGIN!
P.S. I apologize to everyone involved in that little escapade, which includes the community as a whole and see everyone in three days!
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Eh, seems a bit overboard wih he penalties to me, but I am not the one who makes those decisions. Good on ye for playng the game and posting the apology. None needed as far as I'm concerned, ye gained nothing for it. I don't much care about dirty laundry. Integrity cannot be taken, it must be given away.
But I think we all know that the GM team is top shelf, and they will call to account all they spy...
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To all of those involved, I do not think that the community thinks of you as criminals, or bad people, or anything like that. If you were, you would have gotten angry, continued to dispute the GMs, and get yourself a full-blown ban.
You did something wrong, and you learned. That is the way of life. I cannot speak for everyone, but I can forgive you.
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You show all of your true characters and devotion to the world of Layo by your apoligies and willingness to learn from your mistakes. All of you are great RP'ers and great people toplay with. Looking forward to seeing you all in game soon.
-Romona (Remy)
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This post and the one in the character forum…
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=15751&posts=11
…are clearly calling out for some sort of a response. I'll do my best to address your concerns and keep my thoughts reasonable and focussed.
In the character submission thread you write:
[INDENT] Look...guys...this is ridiculous, you say RouterBlade cannot RP CN...I am not talking about me...just RouterBlade, well you state in another thread that all he does is RP his characters CN...now that is hypocritical...its just sad the way you treat people here...you expect them to bend to your every rule and bow down like you are gods...its ridiculous...its a damn game. I mean seriously, I know that your awnser is going to be "Don't like it leave" and I know its your server to do as you will, but I mean come ON what in the nine hells are you people doing here?! I guess I snapped when I got my 3 day ban yesterday, the punishment I think was just to make us look very bad to the whole forums...I don't mean the 3 day ban and the removal of xp...but the public apology...that is just ridiculous...I have been playing here for 9 months...and I have NEVER I repeat NEVER seen a public apology on here...Rhizome, I know you said we shouldn't worry about the community shaming us...but I still believe the public apology was very UNNESSECARY and to just make us loook stupid. It was 5 am...I mean come on I barely had an sleep the night before and it 5 am...I should have opened my mouth then... I could really rant and start a flame fest...but I decided to keep this in the Char Submission forum...just..seriously...settle down.
[/INDENT] Firstly, your argument about RouterBlade role-playing CN doesn't support your position. On the contrary, it supports the denial of his application to play a CN character. The reason for this is simple. Bruenor is CG. Yet, as it is stated in the post you refer to and is supported by your line of argumentation above, he role plays Bruenor as CN. Since this is the case, RouterBlade has established the fact that he is either unable or unwilling to RP his characters according to their alignments. Since CN is a restricted alignment, given as an honor to those who have demonstrated the ability to RP thier character's alignments well, the logic behind the denial seems clear and well founded.
Secondly, I never said you shouldn't worry about the community shaming you. What I did say is that your characters should not see any adverse "in character" reaction from other players and GMs due to the public nature of your camping infraction. Such a thing is considered "meta-gaming" and is a similarly troubling way to play one's character.
Thirdly, in some sense I think you should feel a sense of shame about what your grievious camping actions mean to this community. It seems clear to me that you have no idea the level of effort that goes into making this place work smoothly and fairly for everyone. Just like any other system out there, ours has exploitable elements. When people begin to abuse these "exploits" the whole server suffers. The whole server suffers because it creates tensions and animosities between people who wonder why someone is leveling so fast and they are not. The whole community suffers when players powerlevel because that destabilizes the intended character progression of our world and the balance between players and the areas we have attempted to build for everyone's enjoyment. The whole server suffers because it disrupts the economy or makes crafting levels meaningless. And it disrupts the server because it takes game masters away from their creative endeavors to police player conduct and spend precious time redesigning areas and game systems.
Fourthly, you say that this is just a game and imply in scattered statements that we are out of control regarding our rule enforcement. Rather than directing your aggression towards us, I think perhaps it is a worthy exercise for you to consider why it is that you camped three map areas for experience points for three and a half hours. During that time your group made an active effort to hide your behavior from GMs who may be watching or looking into the server logs by avoiding party chat. To me that demonstrates the sort of out of control behavior you are attributing to us. I mean, it's just a game, right? So why do you feel it necessary to advance your character through ridiculoulsly repetitive and decietful conduct which violates well established server policies? Every detailed element of this world has been designed with a sense of purpose, so you should indeed ask yourself why you are compelled to undermine these purposes instead of working with them or moving on.
The fact that Drizzt and RouterBlade have rescinded their apology to the community is perhaps the most distressing element of all of this. It is distressing from the very simple angle that we all agreed upon a course of action to rectify the exaggerated camping infraction. Now you are both denying this agreement and thus going back on your word. To me this looks far worse than any apology would have appeared in the eyes of your community members, as now your integrity is in question. Not only this, as it is a denial of the initial agreement regarding punishment for your conduct, it demands that another arrangement be made. So, in the interests of fairness and good relations, what sort of reprisals do you feel your transgressive conduct warrants?
It is further distressing from the perspective that you no longer think what you did was wrong. Rescinding your apology now doesn’t change the fact that you dramatically violated the rules and that many people know about it. What it changes is that you are no longer willing to seem apologetic for your behavior. You say you are making a stand. I think we would all prefer to see you make a stand with your community rather than against it.
Respectfully,
Rhizome
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I agree with what Ars is saying .... It wasnt meant to hide from the DM's we all know you can spot us anywhere anytime.
I do have a question. You removed Bruno's apology and then you say that Bruno and Sand took back their apologies.
I read what Sand said and it appears to me that he feels this public apology was alittle unfair. I can't see anywhere in his statements say he is taking it back, yet Bruno's apology was removed. At the moment he may or may not have taken it back. I will find out. However it appears to me that Sand and Bruno attempted to start some new characters and were denied for reasons the team leaders have. My question is: why are the threads to their character submissions linked with the public apologies. We all made our apologies, we stood in front of Hlint
to get stoned at, cursed at and made fun at. It seems everyone knows that we did something wrong. I have another idea... have Orth script a nice little set of those things you have to stick your head and hands in and lock them so we can have the entire town throw tomatoes at us when the pass by. Now if that sounds like im taking back my apology, Im not. I made a mistake and I will stand up and say it. I was wrong at what I did. And you know what, I may make future mistakes and I will deal with them when they happen. No world is perfect.. not even Mistone.
Here is one of my opinions on this. I feel that there should be a few more areas that mixed levels should be able to go to so that all gain xp at the same time. For instance. Kaizer gets 1 xp point for killing a giant in Berhagen, yet I have to go to Central or East server to gain some xp. Now someone told me that the East server was set for Epic characters, yet levels 8 - 19 camped there for 3 and 1/2 hours. I think that we should be appluaded to for our surviving that long. Because i have been there before with a group of higher levels and watched all of us die there and have to respawn back to town with our tails between our legs, but once again we broke the rules and we all did our time for the punishment. Since you bring in their character submissions. I say give them a chance to play the guys they want to and if they do not hold up to rp'ing them properly, why not just delete them. I dont understand why you offer these characters yet you wont allow anyone to play them, or is it we can only play with the one's you want us to play and do the things you want us to do? I mean isn't that a bit too much censorship? Isn't that what makes the different races so diverse? Isn't that what makes this game so fasinating? Why allow drow's? when ever I see a high elf and a drow get next to eachother, all I hear them do is show prejudicies. Which forces other to take sides. Why allow that and not someone who might say something sarcastic. You know like all the high level characters do to the low level characters just before the quests, provided they even acknowledge them being there.
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Rhizome,
I for one would have prefered that you keep this between you and Drizzt. You and the rest of the GM's became upset at Bruenor when he post on the public forum ssaying that he created a flame fest not too long ago. What do you think that this is going to do? I mean come on...they apoligized but they are human and aren't perfect. Let it drop for now and if they do it again then take action instead of continuing this forum into a flame fest instead of an apoligy. I wasn't there...I dso not know these guys personally, but honestly you posting this from the character forum to this one is just asking for a flame fest to start.
And, yes, Brue does RP CG from what I've seen. And Sand Krows plays an honorable and great man in-game. We are all entitled to feelings about things that happen in-game. Drizzt was just expressing his feelings. It is not an attack on your world. It is just a game...a game that you have all worked very hard on...but still a game. So when you say that he stands against the community...this is not completely true, because I for one stand with them on some of what they have said and I am probably not alone. I am against camping...they apoligized...let it go.
-Romona
AND please keep conflicts between you all in PM's that is the more professional course of action.
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Completely agree Kaizer...I'm with you guys on this one.
What happened to serving your time and getting the slate whiped clean?
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Kwangjnim - 7/22/2005 10:03 AM
I agree with what Ars is saying .... It wasnt meant to hide from the DM's we all know you can spot us anywhere anytime.
Sorry if this quote doesn't make sense. Kai here is referring to a post that I made then deleted about our reason for switching off party chat to local talk was because some of us had let slip a couple of words that broke the profanity rule and while no one present in the party minded, we didn't want any more of it going on the log. If I remember correctly (it was 5AM, gimme a break..) it was something about the fireball component being bat guano and a comment about "flaming *" that prompted it.
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I’ll try to reply to a few of your concerns.
Kwangjnim - 7/22/2005 5:03 PM
I do have a question. You removed Bruno's apology and then you say that Bruno and Sand took back their apologies.
I read what Sand said and it appears to me that he feels this public apology was alittle unfair. I can't see anywhere in his statements say he is taking it back, yet Bruno's apology was removed.
Look up in this thread and you can see that Drizzt first posted an apology but then later edited his posts to withdraw them. Also as you state, RouterBlade did post an apology earlier but now it has been deleted by him. No one in the team deleted his post. He deleted it himself, thus leading to the conclusion that he withdrew his apology.
However it appears to me that Sand and Bruno attempted to start some new characters and were denied for reasons the team leaders have. My question is: why are the threads to their character submissions linked with the public apologies.
True, the character submissions have nothing to do with the current discussion. These same characters were submitted some months ago and got denied due to the GM team feeling that these players most likely would not be able to handle the CN alignment. Now they submitted the characters again and again they were denied.
This had nothing to do with the case at hand, but then Drizzt chose to comment on the apology in the Character Submission thread instead of placing his comments here.
Character Submissions is not the right place to discuss these matters but since Drizzt brought up some points regarding this issue and then withdrew the apology there, the team needed to respond. To keep this conversation in the right forum, Rhizome chose to reply in this thread, linking here what Drizzt said.
Now someone told me that the East server was set for Epic characters, yet levels 8 - 19 camped there for 3 and 1/2 hours. I think that we should be appluaded to for our surviving that long.
Yes they should be applauded if they for three and a half hours had challenged the whole that is the East server. East server has way over hundred areas and over a dozen dungeons all tailored to give a hard challenge. Had a party of level 8-19 characters successfully walked around Xantril for hours, exploring the challenges the place has to offer, it would be quite a feat. It also would not be camping.
Instead you found your way to the one dungeon that was unbalanced and spent 3,5 hours in those three areas. That is even less glorious than a party that would go around Broken Forest, killing creatures there and then moving one area north to kill the ogres, then heading back to Broken Forest, repeating this for hours and hours, since at least these areas are more balanced.
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I'm not going to comment on whether or not this punishment for this group was or was not just and appropriate. This was the decision of orth and Rhizome, along with the group involved.
However, regarding the removal of apologies....
Forum members can edit their own posts, and forum members can delete their own posts. Drizzt's (Sand) apology was edited by Drizzt...it says so in the posts. I'm sure somewhere there is a server log to confirm this as well as to say who deleted RouterBlade's apology as well.
I understand that many of you like these characters, and as a player, I too have had some good times playing and RPing with several of them as well. As a player and a GM, I really don't like to see any disciplinary action taken against members of the community. Even when a permanent banning is warranted, it bothers me that things progressed to that point. Maybe some of you think this action is unjust, unfair and/or excessive. It's only natural to stand up for them when your perceptions differ from what is being said here. And that's fine.
But please...I don't understand why you feel the need to hurl accusations at the GM team about censorship and removing posts. Consider also that there may be more going on here than you as players see.
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It takes a big person to admit to the public they did something wrong. And to take one on the chin for what they know they did wrong
I commend those of you who stuck to the agreement you all made. You have my respect!
It is sad to see some of them rebuked. If you can't do the time..... don't do the crime.
It is more sad though to see the accusations hurled at the GM staff for censorship.
Please GM team keep up the hard work. Things like this MUST be stopped before they get out of hand.
If that means people leave the wrold... so be it. It is very very clear what Layo is all about and if they can't mesh with the world.... they shoud find a world they do mesh with.
G-452
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alright people this is getting old very quickly. Im not bending over for you and rolling out the red carpet anymore as i have always done. THIS STOPS NOW. I posted my apology and i deleted it....so what?. I got up on the gallows, the executionor pulled the lever and I survived. All because I DELETED my apology doesnt mean im still not sorry. I will tell you this. you give me respect and i will treat you the same way. Im tired of you people getting smart with me and people say were are the best community around. im sorry but captain obvious called and he said BULLCRAP. Community's help eachother out and they forgive eachother as yo ushould do with this. I camped, im sorry, LET IT GO. I have been here for almost a year so dont tell me that theres never been a camping in my time. I HAVE NEVER SEEN A PUBLIC APOLOGY BEFORE!. Anyone know who wrote the part below muling in server rules (new players read)? It was a player that wrote that and not a GM or L, and this player was banned shortly after. To repeat myself because i know how some people leave stuff out to their benefit, so what if i deleted my apology? It DOESNT NOT mean im NOT sorry it means "stop with the attitude or i will get one myself".
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I stand firmly with the GMs on this ...
I do not know all of what happened between these players and the GMs, but this is not OUR world. This is not a democracy. This is Leanthar's world, his server, his money and time into it. The GM team helps him free of charge to have his vision leap to life, and we are here to enjoy what they have created, and to add what we have created (namely our characters and their relationships) to this world.
When we begin to disrespect the rules, and the GM team, then alot of trouble starts ... and I fear that it may be to the point now where Routerblade and Drizzt will have to do alot more to regain the community's trust than simply apologize.
What I do not understand however .... is why make a conflict? When the rules were broken, and the apologies made, most of the community immediatly forgave them, and hoped to see them become better for it. Why let a character submission ruin your standing in the community? Why let a comment by the GM team that they were not confident that you could roleplay the characters effectivly AFTER BREAKING THE RULES OF THE SERVER escalate? Did you think that because you apologized for doing something wrong that the GMs were going to hand you a golden medal and a pat on the back and let everything go?
There is NO such thing as a clean slate. For some of the community and some of the GMs, every time either of your characters gains a level, in the back of our minds is going to be the thoughts "was that honest?" "I wonder if they were camping again." "That seemed too fast." and other such things. Like it or not you broke the rules of this community and you are lucky that your punishment was as light as it was and not something far harsher.
The team gave you a chance to earn their forgivness and to learn a lesson about the world instead of kicking you out right away. They continue to be generous by still offering to let you earn forgivness ... are you really going to blow your chance here for some stupid pride?
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i could careless about Tristan being denied its their hypocritical attitude that blew me away
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Be that as it may. You have a choice to follow their rules, or leave. This is their server, not yours.
I understand you are trying to make a stand for what you feel is right, but you are not going to change their minds or open their eyes or anything like that. If you keep pushing, eventually they will have to push back.
You mentioned in your apology that you don't want to play on any other server ... so why are you going through so much trouble to endanger your chances of playing here?
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They started pushing now im pushing back not the other way around. like i said before im not bending over and pulling my pants down for anyone anymore. I would really hate to leave layo so im asking everyone to just DROP THIS NOW.
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I agree...Time to drop it. This has run its course. It will only go downhill from here.
I'm locking the thread for now. Let's all take some time and cool off.
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Unlocked. Cooling time over. This discussion is far from dropped. Replies ensuing.
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Fire away
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They did something wrong. They were punished. They apologized. Now, the punishment was deemed fitting the crime. They serve their time. Let them come back. Clean slate. I do not believe that denial of CN characters should be tied into this discussion. It is a separate issue tied to the role playing abilities of these players and permanence in these players. Obviously, this behavior was OOC and certainly GMs took it into account, when denying CN characters. To get upsed over that, and blaming GMs for duplicity is immature and unreasonable, especially given the facts. You have a fairly clean slate to prove yourselves again, do it. Then try for CN again. Now, I am not trying ot lecture anyone, being new on the server and everything. Let's be mature about the whole thing and enjoy Layo.
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yea i tried that when i told them to drop it but apparently replies are ensuing
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I have scanned through the topic, but I can not seem to locate your apology RouterBlade, I thought that maybe you wrote it again. Yet as I read part of your punishment was a public apology and you agreed on it. Of course you say that you are still sorry and it doesn't matter that you deleted your post. But I and as I noticed quite a few others, think that such an action means that you have taken back your words, even if you say that it isn't true.
To me it seems that you are trying to work around this part of the punishment. Let me illustrate what I think with an example. Let us say that a famous politic wished to apologize for some of his actions, in order to do that he filmed a special program to be shown on television. Now after that he showed that program to a small village and then destroyed the tape, without showing it to the entire country. After that he still continues to say that he had apologised to the entire country, but is that really a public apology now?
If you have commited a "crime" ( couldn't find a better word, sorry ) and agreed on a punishment, then please carry it with dignity. Please rewrite your apology as it was a part of the punishment. In my book, a person who backs up on his word is the worst kind. I know that you are a good RPer and wouldn't like to think that could not keep your word.
I was dissapointed when I saw the flame wrods adressed towards the DM team and Leanthar. They punished you for the wrong actions you did and nobody forced you to "bend over and take off your pants"
I see that many take this world for granted, they see that there is a possibility to play a CN aligment and they immedietly think they can play it. Please, if you were refused it doesn't mean you have to insult the team and Leanthar. They made this world and they make the decisions, a CN aligment is a reward, not a granted thing.
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RouterBlade - 7/22/2005 12:58 PM
i could careless about Tristan being denied its their hypocritical attitude that blew me away
ok, ill rewrite my apology but i expect some proper respect and think before you post
not saying this to you Ar7 but quite a few people such as Icedragon
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I deleted my apology to show the GM team i will not obey everyone of their commands. Due to Ar7's reasoning i will rewrite my apology though it will be shorter since everyone can read Kai's or Ars's post and see exactly what i did. I apologize to the community for my camping and if i created a disturbance with it. I know this thread is also causing a disturbance so i attempted to drop it but it was the will of Orth to have this thread continued. Im sorry but im doing the best i can.
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This has gone on long enough.
Yesterday, five players were ‘caught’ breaking the server rule on camping. The two GMs that spoke to them asked them what a good way was to fix this and after some discussion, the two GMs and the players agreed that:
1) the players would lose all XP earned
2) the players would be banned for three days
3) the players would apologize to the community for what they did
I would like to emphasize that everyone agreed. The logs of this conversation are available by the way.
Now, one or more of those players have retracted their apology. Not even have they done that, they even started to show increasing disrespect to the GM team as well as the community.
I’m sure it doesn’t need reminding that the entire GM Team does things for the world for their enjoyment, without any pay, except for the feeling of a job well done.
This discussion has taken a lot of energy from the Team, energy that could’ve been used for other things.
Therefore, I am asking you one last and final time, to stop this disrespectful attitude. There is only so much time or patience we have for things like this.
So, considering that the initial agreement was broken, we are providing you with the following options:
1) You refuse to apologize for the camping and the disrespectful tone. You will be banned from game until you do. OR 2) If you refuse to apologize for the camping incident and following forum manner, then you will be permanently banned from the game and the forums. (A week with no apology will be considered a refusal) OR 3) You choose to uphold your initial agreement and post an apology, in which case we can drop this thing and your ban will be lifted as originally specified. The choice is yours, the ball is in your court. Awaiting your reply, On behalf of the GM Team,
EdTheKet aka DM The Heretic
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Just someone please explain to me why we had to write apologies. Like I said before i;ve been here 9 months and I know others have done something like or the same as us, but yet I see no apology from them. I KNOW this is nothing personal. I KNOW that Orth and Rhiz didn't do this because of who we are. I would just like to know why us and why not others? I don't know maybe others have not broken the rules as severely as we had. And maybe I am totally off, but just a why would be a decent anwser.
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RouterBlade - 7/22/2005 1:16 PM
RouterBlade - 7/22/2005 12:58 PM
i could careless about Tristan being denied its their hypocritical attitude that blew me away
ok, ill rewrite my apology but i expect some proper respect and think before you post
not saying this to you Ar7 but quite a few people such as Icedragon
Whoa. Ok.
I have waited to post on this topic for awhile now. Have been watching and reading everyone's comments.
You all knowingly broke a rule. You all were caught and agreed on a punishment. Everyone initially apologized as was asked.
Then, Drizzt submits for a CN character. He gets denied and the reason he gets denied is a good one. If a players RP ability is in question then they should be denied. This protects Layonara.
Then, Drizzt gets upset and posts quite the rant in the character submission thread and references these goings ons. He also edits his post and rescinds his apology and at some point you delete yours, thereby rescinding as well.
So Rhizome posts a respectfully worded and accurate rebuttal.
Suddenly RB and Drizzt are acting as if they have been wronged! What? No. You guys broke the rules.
You broke your agreement.
And then you have the gall to verbally attack the GM Team? And you expect no reprisals from anyone? Incredible. IceDragon simply responded to the situation. And you dare make it worse by calling her out specifically? Thats terrible.
In my opinion you are making matters much much worse. When I first read what happened I was of the opinion that you all knew you were wrong, were contrite about it and life went on.
Now, after seeing you and Drizzt's responses and reactions, I wonder if you two (note the others have stayed respectful) ARE truly sorry and contrite.
Don't write the apology as a concession to us. If you are not truly sorry and repentant then we do not want to see your words.
Either mean it or stay quiet for otherwise the situation just gets worse.
Note these are my opinions and do not necessarily reflect anyone elses.
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IceDragonDuevessa or however its spelt set me off. i apologize to everyone but not to her
Dont say that i lied on my apology it was sincere.
Thank you.
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RouterBlade - 7/22/2005 1:28 PM
IceDragonDuevessa or however its spelt set me off. i apologize to everyone but not to her
Dont say that i lied on my apology it was sincere.
Thank you.
Umm. Perhaps I am blind. But where is her post?
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Look man...I know I did wrong, I accept the punishment, well msot of it. I just want to know why we were forced to apologize. I am NOT upset that our CN chars got denied...I AM upset that they went against their own word about RouterBlade not being able to RP CN.
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Routerblade every character you have you RP as CN despite the alignments. I for one totally stand behind L on this decision as well as that for Drizzts.
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Why do you have to apologize? Cause you messed up!
Who cares if no one else has ever had to apologize. You agreed to the punishment, and now you back out because its not fair? Geez.
I'm sorry, but that does not make sense to me. Is what you were doing fair to anyone else? To the players that sit at level 8 or 9 for a long time because they follow the rules set forth by the GM Team? Is it fair to those that will take a *very* long time to get to level 20 and higher?
No. It's not. You agreed, you broke the agreement and to me that is worse then the camping/powergaming infraction.
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RouterBlade - 7/22/2005 1:35 PM
Routerblade every character you have you RP as CN despite the alignments. I for one totally stand behind L on this decision as well as that for Drizzts.
Not sure how that is her saying you lied on your apology.
To me it sounds like she questions your ability to properly RP an alignment, one apparently echoed by the rest of the Team and Leanthar himself. She is a GM because she has proven herself to everyone as being able to properly be a GM. I can guarantee you an attack on her will be an attack on the entire GM Team and a road you do not want to go down.
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I know I DID WRONG. I am asking WHY US? Why did they choose US to apologize instead of all the other people that broke the rules. I mean come on...
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OMG, i was talking about you at the time luna, Ice's post was the reason why i got all Pissed off.
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RouterBlade - 7/22/2005 1:41 PM
OMG, i was talking about you at the time luna, Ice's post was the reason why i got all Pissed off.
Ahh. Misunderstood. Sorry.
I never said you lied. I said by deleting it it makes it come off as less then sincere. That and the attitude you are showing everyone. *shrugs*
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...........
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Drizzt - 7/22/2005 1:40 PM
I know I DID WRONG. I am asking WHY US? Why did they choose US to apologize instead of all the other people that broke the rules. I mean come on...
Listen to yourself! Why you??
Why did you break the rules? Geez.
Do not blame others for your mistakes. Own up to it, keep your agreement and life goes on.
Keep fighting it and pretty soon you are finding a new server to play on.
Who cares why you. Swallow your pride, make a sincere apology and let the fun begin anew.
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i think you need to listen to yourself
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Did I blame anyone? Did I truely?
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Even if I do repost my apology...there will always be tension I know it. I was kicked around like a dog enough maybe i'll decide to re-post it...maybe I won't be the latter is a lot more likely at this point.
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OK....everyone knows that im pissed off right now...
why do you all continue to pursue this senseless thing!?
WE APOLOGIZED, MANY PEOPLE BREAK RULES, MANY WILL IN THE FUTURE, GET OVER IT
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Look i've seen countless people leave because of being pushed around...Fian, Arturo, Malakai, and many others...its just sickening..
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I think Ed laid it down very clear .... why's don't really matter at this point.
The entire GM team has been more than patient enough with you ... not for camping, but for your behavior here. If they didn't honestly care about you, they would have banned you, and have had the majority of the community behind them on it.
Your continued disrespect and demands for answers are testing the community beyond the limits of reason, and hurting us far more than simple camping are ...
Despite what you may think, you are not acting as some great heroes or freedom fighters by disputing the GM team. The only injustice here is your broken agreement.
As to IceDragon, in my experience with her she has been more than pleasant, and more than nice, and deserves more respect than you have given her.
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Ive tried to have this thread stopped but Orth deemed it appropriate to have it dragged on
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You are both arguing over little details, please look to the very centre of this discussion. There is only one question, do you wish to continue to play on Layonara or not? If you do, then do as the DMs say, you do not have any other options, whether you like it or not. If you continue to talk back and argue, you will only heat the debate even more. Since you said it yourself, that you wish to stop this thread and meaningless flaming, then make a decision, yes or no. It is that simple, everything else is secondary and will fall in place after you make the decision.
To stop this flame, please let your next post in this topic be the one with your answer to the main question.
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Yes i wish this stopped...and stopped now before anymore people get flamed
id like to continue playing layo though i doubt it will be the same after this meaningless flaming
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Drizzt and Router I accecpt you apologies. what I think is why you neeed to wright them is other look up to you as role models, because you have been here for awhile. So let move on from here my friends and I'll see in a few days.
Kenor
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hope to see you again soon trenton
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*sighs*
This has gone on long enough. I have four GM’s stressing over this nonsense, shame on both RouterBlade and Drizzt. I have four GM’s (and now myself) that could have been in game and playing their character and having fun, been in game and GM’ing for the players and letting them have fun, or providing/fixing content so that the community has more fun. Instead we (the GM team) have diverted over twelve hours (combined) to this infraction of game rules. That is just terrible over something like this, it is sad. And just to think in 36 hours most of those involved will be back in game and playing but a few have decided to stir up the hornets nest just so that they can get an emotion going in the community.
I so wanted this to work out for the best for everybody but Bruenor and Drizzt put the team and the community in a lose-lose situation over something that really could have been settled in far better ways. RouterBlade has been banned and his characters have been deleted. The last straw is when he singled out IceDragonDuvessa from the rest of the GM team and she was not involved in the banning but rather in a separate issue all together. And on that separate issue she ran it past the team and myself and we all agreed that the two characters should be denied. That was wrong and it shows a level of hostility that I do not want in this world from any player, no matter who they are or how long they have been here. Drizzt at this time you are not banned because at least today you have tried to be respectful (I will answer your question at the end of this post). Drizzt I really hope you think about your reply and follow through on the agreement that was made the other day, I would hate to lose another player over this.
RouterBlade and his family play here so at this time I am not banning their IP range because IF (big if I know--but I am trying to think about them) they still want to play here, without RouterBlade, they are welcome. But the ball is now in RouterBlade’s hands, if he is inappropriate and continues on with rants and demeaning attitude towards the team and the community (by using their accounts on the forums or creating a new one on the forum or using their nwn cd accounts) he will force my hand to ban the IP addresses—RoutherBlade, please have the respect of your family to not do that to them.
To the player(s) out there who think that the team has been unfair, edited/deleted posts etc. that is not true at all and I am quite certain that is known but for some reason the bandwagon was joined. This was an agreement made by seven people, five in the party and two GM’s. We do not edit nor delete posts unless they contain cuss words and even then I don’t think we have deleted more than 2-3 posts (on purpose mind you) in over three years and none involving this issue. I know of only a few times that we have edited a post due to inappropriate language but even then only the language was **** out. So please before you start accusing and such make sure you think things through and understand all sides of the story.
I will remind everybody here that we are here to have fun and that includes the GM team, we do it for free and we do it because we want to the community to have a good RP experience in a good community. That means that we must have rules, like it or not, and that also means we must enforce those rules, like it or not (and truth be told I hate being forced to enforce the rules—it sucks). That also means that when we have players that push back by blatantly slamming the rules, server, community, or team and then disrespecting them at the level that has happened over this we must take action. Our backs were put in to a corner and RouterBlade did this on purpose and it was by his choice (to a degree Drizzt did it as well but at least he has remained calm today). I can’t think of any world or GM Team that listens and values the input and feedback as much as we do but it must be done in a respectful and level headed way, that is a pretty simple and fair request I think.
I hate losing players and I hate it when the community is not having fun—that is why we are here after all. If I wanted to deal with that sort of thing I would set up a full pvp/pk server and just let players run rampant but that is not what we are about here. We have rules in place so that we can have fun in a good community and those rules must be followed and enforced.
To anybody that is annoyed or think we are wrong on this banning I am sorry. But this action was forced on us by the inflaming posts by a few people in the community (not just these two that I have talked about in this post).
Drizzt,
As to your question on why the apology when nobody has ever had to apologize before.
1) For camping for 3.5 hours and knowingly doing so as you all admitted…3.5 hours is so far above and beyond “a mistake” that it was very clear to the team that this was done intentionally.
2) Because low level players had been taken over there for the soul reason (after 3.5 hours that is pretty much how it looks mind you) of camping and getting nice items and a good amount of gold.
3) RouterBlade submitted to be a part of the GM team and as such he clearly knew the rules of the world and the community and as such should have, by himself, reined all of this in but he didn’t and in this case it was even guiltier by party association with him in the party.
As to your statement of “no public apologies had been done before” that is incorrect. There are at least two other incidents were players have had to apologize to the community for breaking the rules. One of them was only a few months ago—I don’t remember the exact date though and the other was at least a year ago—probably more. I have even apologized to the player and community when I make a mistake. It is the right thing to do and it makes people think a little more deeply before making that same mistake again (willingly or not willingly).
I am sorry this all came down this way, it is the worse job in the world to have to ban players, especially players that are liked by others and have been here a while.
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One thing if i may...i did try to have this thread stopped...more than once.
but you know best...
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I was mistaken and I have removed that part of my post but I have a right to think that the GM's have over reacted as well and that people who have done much worse are still playing the game and did not have to publically apologize.
-Romona
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Well this boiled down to a nice cluster. Maybe or maybe not I didnt full explain myself but I was asking why you deleted Bruno's threads. Because I tried to delete something and it said "You are not a GM" I was under the belief that only GM's can delete anything. As for the other items you identified, they are merely questions due to the facts that I did not know the whole story, thats why I asked them. They were questions not acusations. As for Bruno being upset and voiceing his opinions I believe you all read them and responded accordingly however if you listened to what he was saying, he was a bit rude but I feel he was trying to prove his point and became fustrated. I believe the banning is not just. He was upset and spoke about one of the GM's, you have to remember that he lost out on alot things and he retaliated in defense. We all know it is your game, your rules, and the final choice is yours. If you speak with the DM's who caught us in the act. I asked them " If this is such a tight community can we keep this amongst ourselves". They chose the punishment, which we all did. if I am correct, it is the buzz around town. This total event was a mistake on us (the camping players). We have done our time now lets move on. here's another question to all. If anyone in your family breaks the law and goes to jail, do you disown them are they forsaken, do you turn your back on them? If you believe you would then let the banning stay. If you still consider them family why not reconsider this and cancel the banning. Once and for all, lets please drop this and move on. I want to RP as much all of you, and i'm sure Bruno does too. Please end it. Don't respond to this anymore except Leanther. Thank you all, GM's and Leather.
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Drizzt not banned and Router banned?! Drizzt posted more arguing on this thread than Router and you say he was being respectful? oh well... You all got what you wanted...Bruenor is no more...are you all happy now? Your world is "perfect" again.
-Romona :(
(now may I say that I still respect the GM team but again I am entitled to my opinion of the situation and I agree that Orth didn't need to reopen this thread and that Rhizome never needed to post the Character sub part in here. When it gets heated it should be taken to PM's...we all knew what they did and how they were feeling about it...we didn't need it dragged out like this...my two cents)
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If, they tried to break out of jail, insulted the court that put them there, and then became frustrated when they were told that, whether they thought they were right or wrong they should take the time, and they refused, then I would not help them against any further punishment.
I am very sad to see Routerblade go, and I hope Drizzt chooeses his path more carefully ... but had they kept their apology up, bit the bullet, and taken the punishment without complaint, then I would happily defend them to the point of my own banning if I had to ...
However, Routerblades chose instead to be beligerint .... and his actions have consequences.
This issue isn't about camping anymore, it is about respect for the GM team, and fellow players. This respect is really what makes Layo such a wonderfull place.
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"...(now may I say that I still respect the GM team but again I am entitled to my opinion of the situation and I agree that Orth didn't need to reopen this thread and that Rhizome never needed to post the Character sub part in here. When it gets heated it should be taken to PM's...we all knew what they did and how they were feeling about it...we didn't need it dragged out like this...my two cents)..."
Romona,
So what you are saying is that the 25+ GM's team should just sit back and let people slam the world, the rules, the server, and the community? How is that keeping a community running smoothly? They broke the rules, agreed to the the penalty, go back on their words, come to the public and attempt to inflame the community (one far more than the other)... I am just not seeing how that is "fair" or right...something you seem to think is perfectly fine for some reason. We locked the thread this morning because things were getting out of hand and the team did not have time (due to RL) to monitor things at that time. We also locked it so that we could give those two time to calm down a little and hopefully rethink things and then come back so that we could work through this issue (and one of them did). But it was going to be (and did) get unlocked to give people a chance to speak when GM's were on the forums and ready to monitor the flames that was being spread (including by you directly I will add). Orth unlocked it because we are NOT going to sit back and take what was happening, nor should we be expected too take it. We did not post for a while after it was unlocked because we wanted the community to weigh in (while we were able to monitor) and we wanted to give both of them a chance to do the right thing. Things then progressed foward to where it is now.
As to moving to PM's... I think not. They choose to make it public and as such we publicly defended ourselves--you tell me how that is wrong. Are you trying to tell me that if you are publicly insulted and demeaned after pouring your heart and soul and money in to something that is on a volunteer basis that you would not want to defend yourself in the same public space? They can deflame us (the team) and inflame the community and then you think we should move it to private after they started that sort of process in the public? You expect us to take things (while we put in 100's of hours a month, pay more than $350 every single month, paid for 5 servers from my pockets to get this going--each server was around $2,000 mind you) like that when people choose to make it public? How is that "fair" as you are so quick to state every time you turn around? I really want to hear your reasoning behind this thought process.
As to Drizzt posting worse things I just do not understand where your reasoning is there. Are you saying we should ban him since we banned RouterBlade? I do not know either of these players, I do know they are liked and they are respected and I do know the team enjoys playing with them--this is not personal and never has been--but for some reason I get the sense that you think it is. You think this a cake walk? You think I enjoy doing this?
I was really hoping that this would drop but you have decided to continue it...
My patience is at an end here. This is just plain silly.
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Boy...it's getting hot in here.
If we get too many of these kinda threads happening (not the apology part...the other stuff), the world WILL fall apart. I've GM'd other games...seen it happen a million times.
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*nods* Yep as have I.
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Kwaninim,
I am not sure why you were not logged in when you posted that (your forum name has not been altered/banned/temporary banned or anything like that)....
To your question.
"Why you deleted Bruno's threads".
We didn't, he did.
"...We have done our time now lets move on. here's another question to all..."
Totally, 100% agree.
"...If anyone in your family breaks the law and goes to jail, do you disown them are they forsaken, do you turn your back on them?..."
Hmm, not quite a fair statement but I will take a stab at it. My family I have grown with for 16 years--every single day, day and night (24 hours a day), I have four children and a beautiful and talented wife and as such I guarantee I would stick with them through thick and thin. But I have lived with them for 3X years (can't tell her age you know :) ), 16, 16, 13, and 2.5 years... so I know them FAR FAR FAR FAR better than anybody in this world, in this community, and on the GM Team.
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I have to say...I recently downloaded the music files and I love the tunes in Hlint. Nice touch :)
Etinfall
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That optional music is good stuff. We have it playing in quite a few areas. You can also have them played via the music box.
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Sorry at work. When I built my computer I built so I could play with my family. My keyboard has a fingerprint thing on it so I use that instead of typing passwords and I just had to pop in and see how things were going and I couldn't remember my password. But to go back to the family.... this... we are family ... in a fantasy kinda way and I was hoping you would see it that way also. The bottom line is do we need to do this... or can it be worked out, like any other problem? Havent you ever said anything disrespectful to someone with authority. It was not meant to talk about your family disrespectfully.
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Kwanginim,
I didn't take it disrespectful at all. It was an intelligently worded and fair question.
I just don't think you can compare a RL family with a community family, they just are not the same--in some ways they are but in many they just are not. That is like saying I have 3,000 children (almost as many members that we have registered) and I know all of them personally and deeply and that I interact with them deeply every single day.
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That is my exact point L. Like the saying goes "Do not let your emotions Cloud you judgements" I have Faith that you will make the best judgement that serves all.
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I originally thought about posting here earlier (commenting about re-locking this thread, after the falming started again; though I was judging from the first three posts on this page), but decided not to. I had also looked at the time difference (which happened to not be long enough, considering how some people can stay angry at others longer than the average person. This was likely the case). (12:07 PM -- 2:30 PM, U.S. Central Daylight) The difference is about one hour and twenty minutes. Trying to remain neutral, Marswipp
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Marswipp - 7/22/2005 11:10 PM
12:07 PM - 2:30 PM, U.S. Central Daylight The difference is about one hour and twenty minutes
Well if you want to split hairs, thats two hours and twenty minutes.
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Alright, lets end this here.
Drizzt send me a PM if/when you decide and I will open this thread again or post your answer.
To say I am tired is an understatement.
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Alright I am going to make it as simple as possible here. I read and re-read and re-read all of the posts in the apology thread. I decided to choose number three, mostly because I don't really want it to end this way and secondly because I have tons of friends still playing here, including one of my own RL family members. It will not be the same with the crazy dwarf around though. Now, to the apology. I am sorry for what I did 2 nights ago, I exploited a dungeon, helped a lower level gain experience, camped, avoided the party chat for in fear of DMs hearing what we were saying, led the party to the area, and finally suggested the area to the party when asked not to by a friend when we first discovered the area. Secondly I would like to personally apologize to Leanthar, Orth, Rhizome, and Ice for arguing with all of you, "backing you against a corner", and most of all for being a complete and total jerk. I would also like to apologize to any community members that I disappointed, dis-agreed with, or made your expectation of this world and/or me lower. Leanthar, I respect you and I respect and am very very very very very very very very very very very thankful that you made this server. I also want to say I am probably going to take a break for awhile from Layo...a few days, a few months, we will see.
-Drizzt