The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: General_Ski on July 27, 2005, 12:18:00 PM
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As far as I know in RL silver does not rust. Would silver lining theoretically protect weapons against rust monsters?
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I think that a weapon would still be destroyed because a silver coating is very thin and a blow from a monster would most likely knock a hole in the coating to reach the base metal.
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Silver most definitely rusts. That is why it tarnishes (formation of a silver oxidate).
Silver just doesn't fall to pieces like iron or steel because it rusts at a way slower rate than the other metals. Gold actually rusts too, but its rate of oxidation is even slower than silver.
I guess this theorehtical inquiry would require figuring out how much a rust monster speeds up the oxidation process.
I would not believe that silver or platinum things (platinum rust really slow too) should be immune to the monster, but as items, they should receive a higher saving throw before becoming useless.
My two cents....
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Actually, it does. In chemistry, rust is "to become coated with oxide".
When iron becomes coated with oxide (i.e. rusts), it reacts with the oxygen in the air.
However, any metal can react with oxygen, including silver, it's just not very prone to do. Under normal circumstances, silver doesn't. However, this is a rust monster we're talking about, so sure, why wouldn't the silver rust :)
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Continuing this purely theoretical discussion. Speaking of weapons falling apart.. then.. things like a spear/trident./two-bladed sword, should theoretically lose their metal parts and not shafts, leaving a crude, less damaging, but still wieldy remainder of the weapon (namely a staff), should this not be so? (this mostly pertains to an offline D&D campaign a friend of mine is running, obviously in all cases DM has the final word).
Edited:
As far as Layo goes, it never hurts to carry a wooden stick, just hope not to run into a buzz saw, ermmm.. termites...
2nd Edit just read up something on silver, it tranishes not because of oxidation, but because of exposure to ozone, something one can hardly expect rust monsters having access to:
http://www.scescape.net/~woods/elements/silver.html
3rd edit, a little something else on silver:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver
4th Edit: Ah finally found something on Silver corrosion.. Seems like copper and silver do not mix well..
http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/MatSelect/corrsilver.htm
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There are small levels of ozone in the air. It gets produced from oxygen when it is hit with a certain type of ultraviolet.
(And yes, I have a chemistry degree).
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Listen to Ed...
I have a polictical science degree!
(seriously, I took a total of 3 full years of college chemistry before surrending to the social sciences, Ed is on the money!)
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It's not ozone in the air that I was doubting. It's presence ozone in the rust monsters in deep underground locations.
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Maybe it's antenna is a catalyst, forming free oxygen radicals from the oxygen in the air, making them superreactive, oxidizing (aka rusting) every metal it touches.
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You know you guys are debating the physics behind a fictitious creature, right? ;)
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NWN= Fantasy game ,so that means what is fact in our world might not be so in NWN(D&D).
I view Rust monsters as magical beasts with a magic rust attack.
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Why not?
I think it would be cool to revamp the rust monster's atennae to have a electric spark to signify the production of higly concentrated ozone. It would make sense if a subterranian rust eating monster could do this, or if it depended on the natural formation of rust it would likely starve to death.
Ozone is HIGHLY reactive at sea level (with it's increased pressure) and will oxidize just about anything, including lung tissue if exposed long enough.
As to debating the physics, isn't that how this thread started? Debating the physics of silver rusting I believe.
Look at it like Star Trek. When Star Trek the Next Generation started, Universal hired a bunch of theoretical physicists to work out how the technology works. With a few exceptions (including the assumptions made in Warp Physics and that silly Antimatter conversion within a dilithium crystal) most of the technology and astro-physical phenomenon in the show was soundly rooted in theoretical physics. The greatest leaps the show made was creating make-believe materials the machines are made of.
FOR EXAMPLE:
- the U.S. Airforce has successfully tested an engine (in a wind tunnel) that could operate at the edge of the atmospere (upper stratosphere) and attain speeds near Mach 4. THe problem is that material engineering has not solved the problem of what to make such an aircraft out of in order to keep it from disentigrating when it attains such speeds. Food for thought.
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Yeah, electical antenaes sounds good, as well as additional electrical damage perhaps.
Edit: Well, oxidizing lungs is not the same as oxidizing wood. Our blood contains a lot of iron. And there are hundreds capillaries close to lungs, using iron to transport oxygen, I believe. Thus this kind of oxidation is not in doubt. What I am doubting is disintegration of non-metal parts of the weapon. So the metallic parts will rust off, a wooden stick will still be a wooden stick. Metal part of a flail or an ax will rust off still leaving you with a stick.
Now having all the weapons be breakable against any monsters has a little more realistic effect, especially higher the ac or resistances the more chances of breaking. Can't have it done only on critical hits, since, that would ruin weaponmasters as a class. On the other hand, if that happens on devastating critical.. Well.. You get your kill, but you lose yer sword. But then the whole thing would just look Diabloesque.
Anyhow, back to oxidation.. What about non-metal parts of armor? Also theoretically, scalemail is very vulnerable to underneath thrusts, while chainmail to arrows, as far as plate, well striking unprotected, joint areas seems good.. Worked with halberds and pikes at least.
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Okay. Gold rust is way cool. It's all green 'n' stuff. Right?
Toying with silver oxidates is my job. I'm a trumpeter. :D
Pepsi shall forever remain better than coke.
And I think if a rust monster rusts your weapon to pieces, the rust, er, happens at such an incredible fast rate that whatever is left behind is also flimsy and useless. Huuuge chemical reaction going on likely hurts the wood. *nod*
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ST:TNG -> Theory and science
NWN/D&D -> FANTASY & MAGIC
Sorry...the physical laws we know and love get thrown out the window when magic is involved.
But, since we're trying... ;)
If a rust monster had a super-intense electrical discharge flowing between its antennae, then it would also have to do electrical damage to anything that came within a certain radius, whether it makes an attack or not. Especially those wearing metal armor, as electricity always takes the path of least resistance to ground.
More than likely, the rust monster employs some form of an extremely concentrated oxidizing agent or catalyst capable of the rapid oxidation of most, if not all, types of metal. This is most likely a secretion from the creature's skin, and like poisonous frogs who secret highly concentrated toxins, the rust monsters are immune to any negative effects of these secretions.
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So it'd be electric rust monsters what's wrong with that.. I mean the electrecute victims in metal armor then eat the armor.
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How about EEEEEvil electric rust monsters with lasers mounted to their frickin' heads? ;)
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Uh.. Not sure about lasers. But negative energy rays, sure thing.
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I come home having.. not such a great day.. So I go to the forums and read this thread..
*giggles* Just had to say Thanks.. this whole thread truly just made my day.
and this.. -->
Dorganath - 7/27/2005 7:20 PM How about EEEEEvil electric rust monsters with lasers mounted to their frickin' heads? ;)
hehe. thats what really made me smile.
LV
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Oh yeah and all this would make rust monsters immune to electric and negative enegry stuff.
Edit: but this means they should not attack anyone not carrying/wearing metal stuff, since all theya re after is metal... They shuld probably attack all npcs who were metal as wellas pcs and I bet they'd just have one big feast on metal golems..
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If you think that's bad, I've already worked out a formula to calculate the mass of a cake-golem.
It's mostly just grams of fat...
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Turned out to be a funny thread. ;)
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Also hmm.. This is going to sound evil. All metal stuff in the persons backpack rusts too...
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Lalaith Va'lash - 7/27/2005 5:31 PM I come home having.. not such a great day.. So I go to the forums and read this thread..
*giggles* Just had to say Thanks.. this whole thread truly just made my day.
and this.. -->
Dorganath - 7/27/2005 7:20 PM How about EEEEEvil electric rust monsters with lasers mounted to their frickin' heads? ;)
hehe. thats what really made me smile.
LV
Thats great, everyone deserves a cooked meal... And also, keep the cake golems a secret, they're for Celgar's birthday :o
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I wonder if a rust monster attacks an iron or mithril golem...does the golem disinegrate? Think about it for a second. The rust monster makes metals rust. However, the golems are magical and immune to like, everything. Would it sort of... not hurt the golems?
I want to see someone make a flesh golem. Please, someone? Make a flesh golem?
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Umm they are not immune to everything.. All golems have their weak spots..
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So...I was driving my 78 beetle in the caves. I must have come across a rust monster. Now to get ahold of my insurance guy.
Etinfall
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The rust monster probably took one look at that 78 Beetle and said, "Ew...left-overs," and walked away. ;)
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Golems really are immune to everything.
Nothing can hurt a mithril golem. Except another mithril golem.
It's like, only a diamond can scratch another diamond.
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Rust Monster vs. Iron Golem Grudge Match!
Will the Iron Golem slam the Rust monster before failing it's saving throw?
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Diamondedge - 7/28/2005 9:44 AM
Golems really are immune to everything.
Nothing can hurt a mithril golem. Except another mithril golem.
It's like, only a diamond can scratch another diamond.
Except you can easily crush a diamond by hitting it with enough force at the right angle with whatever you have at hand.
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Yep...diamonds are tough, but the right kind of force and their crystal structure breaks down.
Most people don't know that glass is extremely elastic. You can see this by dropping a glass marble onto a glass coffee table. However, glass has a low elastic limit, and once that limit is reached, the material breaks down.
Same deal with diamonds. They're very hard and such, but the right kind of force and they break apart.
Consider that the tools used to cut diamonds are made out of metal. While not hard enough to scratch the diamonds, they are tough enough to break them.
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Mirthiril Melts 'nough said. All you need a fire ball which will get them up to high enough temperature, then a whack with a hammer.
As for the beetle. That's what you get for going offroading.. I bet you had fun having to push that beetle halfway into caves. Did you thank the rust monsters for lightning your pack?:) Perhaps now you can get one of those plastic cars.:P
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Taken right from a SRD. :)
RUST MONSTER
Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 5d8+5 (27 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+3
Attack: Antennae touch +3 melee (rust)
Full Attack: Antennae touch +3 melee (rust) and bite –2 melee (1d3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Rust
Special Qualities: Darkvision, scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +5
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Track
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6–8 HD (Medium); 9–15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —
The hide of these creatures varies in color from a yellowish tan underside to a rust-red upper back. A rust monster’s prehensile antennae can rust metals on contact.
The typical rust monster measures 5 feet long and 3 feet high, weighing 200 pounds.
COMBAT
A rust monster can scent a metal object from up to 90 feet away. When it detects one, it dashes toward the source and attempts to strike it with its antennae. The creature is relentless, chasing characters over long distances if they still possess intact metal objects but usually ceasing its attacks to devour a freshly rusted meal.
The creature targets the largest metal object available, striking first at armor, then at shields and smaller items. It prefers ferrous metals (steel or iron) over precious metals (such as gold or silver) but will devour the latter if given the opportunity.
Rust (Ex): A rust monster that makes a successful touch attack with its antennae causes the target metal to corrode, falling to pieces and becoming useless immediately. The touch can destroy up to a 10-foot cube of metal instantly. Magic armor and weapons, and other magic items made of metal, must succeed on a DC 17 Reflex save or be dissolved. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.
A metal weapon that deals damage to a rust monster corrodes immediately. Wooden, stone, and other nonmetallic weapons are unaffected.
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SO yeah electric antennaes... Umm anyone with piercings, beware!
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Dorganath - 7/28/2005 7:11 AM
Most people don't know that glass is extremely elastic. You can see this by dropping a glass marble onto a glass coffee table. However, glass has a low elastic limit, and once that limit is reached, the material breaks down.
Actually, one of the weirdest things that I ever found out in physics class was that common glass is actually a liquid at room temperature with a extremely high viscosity! This can be observed if you go to an old Cathedral in Europe and find a window that still contains the orginal glass (very rare). The glass is actually flowing out of the window pane (it just flows REALLY slowly die to its tremendously high viscosity).
Just some useless trivia, but it does support the finding that glass is actually elastic, due to the reduced molecular cohesion characteristic of liquids.
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Hmm... Why drown them... Pour glass on them..
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Gilrod - 7/28/2005 11:56 AM
Actually, one of the weirdest things that I ever found out in physics class was that common glass is actually a liquid at room temperature with a extremely high viscosity! This can be observed if you go to an old Cathedral in Europe and find a window that still contains the orginal glass (very rare). The glass is actually flowing out of the window pane (it just flows REALLY slowly die to its tremendously high viscosity).
Just some useless trivia, but it does support the finding that glass is actually elastic, due to the reduced molecular cohesion characteristic of liquids.
Actually I heard that it's now considered a myth. The Cathedral example you gave actually turned out to be because methods of making glass in those times caused part of it to be thicker. But who knows, maybe some guy just made that up because he wanted attention....
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Well there are certain rules to glass formation at least to theory, thus not all oxides can form glass.
Zachariasen's Rules for Glass formation:
1. No oxygen atom may be linked with more than two cations.
2.The cation coordination number is small 3 or 4
3.Oxygen polyhedra share corners not edges or faces
4.For 3d networks at least 3 corners must be shared.
In general all these for rules have to be satisfied for glass to form.
Edit: this is the only thing I still retaing from my chemistry class on glass from back before time started. ermmm.
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It doesn't LOOK that liquid to me... *pokes his window...* Now I will never trust my walls...
I'll have to get transparent aluminum windows.
Crap, that hasn't been invented yet!
Crap, Scottie's dead!
Crap!
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I believe that there is no discrete phase change in glass between solid and liquid forms. As you heat glass, it becomes softer and less viscous and flows, but at no point does it actually melt/solidify.
Contrast this with things that have a definite liquid and solid form, such as water, where the change from a liquid to solid form (and vice versa) is pronounced, definite and sudden.
Glass, in my understanding, is a supercooled liquid.
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Well, yes, water actually achieves crystallization in ice and thus behaves like crystallic entity. Glass does not.. It in some way is similar to cristalls, but it's structure is chaotic and irregular, while that of crystals follows a distinct, repeatable pattern.
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Silicon Dioxide in crystaline form is known as quartz.
Silicon Dioxide in granular form is known as sand.
Silicon Dioxide in an amorphous form is known as glass.
Glass also usually has impurities in it to such a degree that it can make it nearly impossible for a crystaline structure to form.
Side note: Besides its easily manipulated electrical properties, another key reason why silicon is such a great material for making computer chips, transistors, etc. is that in the presence of heat and oxygen, it can literally grow its own insulating material.
Side, side note: Holy Hijack, Batman!!!! :o