The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Leanthar on August 20, 2005, 09:04:00 AM
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I think a few of you probably remember just how buggy and abused the system was and that is why we yanked it out of the game. But I want to get one back in the game--however with some severe limitations. Here is my proposal at this time, input please. Also--I need to find a good player vendor script, one that works very well for PW's.
+ Player Vendors will be placed in the world by the content team. Probably one-three per building max. Merchant buildings will have 2, some taverns 1 (not all), some temples 1 (not all), and player run stores 3. They can not be placed by players--this will help us to spread out the areas that have inventory loading etc.
+ Player vendors will cost 35,000gp to hire. I am doing this so that players will not purchase a vendor just for storage--like it used to be used for. Since the player is forking out a good amount of gold at the beginning hopefully they will try to sell items, not use it to store junk.
+ Player vendors will only take 10%-15% of each purchase.
+ Player vendors will not charge a cost per item. This may change if players start using them for storage.
+ If a player vendor is abused (breaking rules that will be established) the vendor will be deleted and all items placed on the vendor lost.
This is by no means a promise that they are coming because I still need to find some that work in a PW, perhaps the old one we used has been updated--we will see.
The cost of a vendor also means that only the more established players will likely be the ones purchasing a vendor. As far as I am concerned that is a good thing because by the time they can afford a vendor they will know the community and the rules of the server as well as hopefully understand that we want to protect the RP atmosphere of the world.
Input please.
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It certainly would make it easier for a crafter's customers to buy things, since we have so many players from all different timezones, and finding the one selling the item you want can be difficult at times. However, I do like that inaccessability to a degree. It adds to the cost, the prestige, of having said magic item. Player vendors will make magic items far more accessible, even at the high cost in gold that many of the items come with. I fear some players will become more concerned about garnering the gold to buy that sweet adamantium armor than building up the reputation of someone who would own such fantastic armor. Maybe I am just being paranoid. I like Layo, for everything it is, especially the RP, and the real challenge it is to become 'great.' I must admit, though, I would certainly like the ease they will bring to getting my hands on the items I want.
Now to my questions. I have planned a meeting this Tue. (see player calendar and http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=16436&posts=13) to discuss some sort of resource store. Hence, my question is, could these player vendors be not only for completed items, but for resources to be bought and sold from? That would also make crafting in a strong crafting community so much easier, and would solve the issue of devising resource stores. I also doubt you would ever have to worry about these resource player vendors becoming over-full, since there is a constant demand for nearly all resources, unlike many magic items. Of course, this, once again, would make magic items that much more accessible, because it would ease the crafting experience, hence allow for more magic items to be produced.
Okay, if I think of anything else, I'll post again :)
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I wouldn't mind if they were not implemented.
As it is now, it can be hard to get hold of the
player merchant you first contacted. So if you
are in a hurry you need to do more research
and ask around who else can provide the same
items/service, which leads to more interaction.
But using the vendors will be a good way to
raise the prices on items that are being sold
since you can adjust the percentage they take
from each sale.
One way, but probably not a good way, would
be to limit the vendors to only those who
own a house key. Either a copy or an original.
Since they will likely not need to use the
vendor for storage space.
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I really like the rp and the bartering that often goes into a sale between 2 pc's Even if somtimes its just a quick interaction, other times you can learn the story of the item, its history, and as a newer player.. you meet another char.
My only concern is that much of this might be lost on player vendors. (Though I am not 100% sure how they work.. )
Also, with player run things like the Orc bashers shop and now more recently the Lelion arms venders every week (where anybody can sell that wants to, talk to Quin and Derrick), I think there are other options that are much more involved and rp oriented that pc's could do.
Like, another server I played on had a trade fair.. a scheduled event every month where many people came, and sold and traded their goods, it was a lot of fun too. We could also have scheduled auctions done IG, and the best part is, all these things could be player run events placed on the player events calander.
Just a thought anyway, it really wouldn't bother me either way, since Lalaith is to poor to buy anything.. hehe
LV
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I liked player vendors... Well not the lag though, but if we can just bring in the positive things it would be cool.
I remember I could just take my new character shopping... look through all the vendors and decide what to gather gold for. It was cool.
And it doesn't really take away from PC interaction since the vendors take the 15%... so most people would say they'd sell the item cheaper than their vendor if you contacted them personally.
Yeah, RPing sales are nice but that's not always available for everyone. There's the odd hours you sometimes play and some people are restricted to hours some people aren't online. So if you want to get an item now and not wait for 30 hours, these work nice... And this kind of system doesn't mean you can't like have a bazaar day or sell your stuff yourself in an event. Just makes you able to sell things while you're not on and allows others to buy from you when you're not on, even people who don't play during the same times.
It was a great way to find out what items were available out there and for sale though. I liked it...
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I really loved the vendors myself. I craft a lot and due to my timezone it was often difficult to find enough customers. But I have a suggestion, to please the people who just want to go out and buy, and the people who wish to find the crafter and arrange a special deal through interraction and RP.
I remember that you could change the price that the vendor asked for each item. This actually led to an awful economy as players lowered the prices to sell more. Now I would suggest that this option would be turned off and the vendors would automatically ask 150-200% for every item they sold. That way, if somebody wanted an item as quickly as possible, they would go and buy one from a vendor, paying more for the speed. Such a system would still encourage RP as not many would be willing to pay double, these people would contact the crafter and meet with him IC.
But there is one thing that concerns me. Right now there are set prices for most of the items and the economy is going along nicely. But if vendors are introduced, they will set prices the same way the pricing lense sets them. That could cause A LOT of trouble and mess up the economy again.
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I remember the player vendors were great for browsing and seeing the types of items being sold and I'd love to see em make a comeback. But I wouldnt use them for selling because there can be some really fun rp in haggling and watching the buyer sweat.
-Al
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I feel they're unnecessary. And regardless of the rules someone will always break them. Does anyone recall when there was a large sign outside of the market, and the bright yellow paragraph of server text which clearly stated the rules as you entered? And how many times a day did I have to take away from time I could be running a quest to kill, or maintain the vendors of people who are clearly unable to read the simple guidelines.
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"...Does anyone recall when there was a large sign outside of the market, and the bright yellow paragraph of server text which clearly stated the rules as you entered? And how many times a day did I have to take away from time I could be running a quest to kill, or maintain the vendors of people who are clearly unable to read the simple guidelines..."
Yeah, I certainly remember that time and your efforts and how disgusted I was that players obviously ignored the rule (not all but a fair amount). That was the final straw and what caused them to get ripped out.
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Good question this. I was wondering if vendors could be implemented as merchants with limited times of day, week, month, etc.. In major cities some permanent merchants could be available, with limits on numbers as Leanthor stated. After all to get a prime slot would you need a license/permission?
In smaller towns there could be once a week, month markets. Maybe with vendors licenses bought one a one off to a monthly/yearly license. Players could still buy and sell as individuals but this could be increasingly seen as the black market, particularly in items that it would be illegal to sell in a stall/shop. [I quite like the idea that some items would be illegal or require special permission to sell.(maybe quest earned permission) This might help maintain the rarity of magic items.
Certain merchants might be only alloud to sell particular products. The licensing of merchant may be backed up by a guild, with all the strongarm tactics that such guilds may employ to wayward, non-guild, PC's.
Mary Blood Axe
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Germaine Lorn - 8/19/2005 4:40 PM
In smaller towns there could be once a week, month markets. Maybe with vendors licenses bought one a one off to a monthly/yearly license.
Mary Blood Axe
Now that would be cool!
Imagine 25 people gathering at a small Hlint market once a week or month doing their shopping "Hey what did you get?" "Wow neat!" "I think I'm going to save up for that one" etc... It would be almost like the local street market gatherings they have in many cities in Europe (if you've been to Firenze in Italy you'll know precisely what I imagine). This would also increase the worth of (not "gold value", more like appreciation for) player made items since they'd only be available a limited time.
Let's say, the vendors should be available for a whole 24 hours on their day so that everyone regardless of timezone can shop.
However, reading the previous posts it is clear the venders were abused a lot... The rules posted in the first post seem to me to be fool-proof, but then again I've got no experience with vendors.
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My personal feeling is that despite RL timezones, if there is a need for a merchant at a specific time the players here have been outstanding at trying to be available for purchases, there are several players that have joined together in 3-4 different groups that sell items, if the demand is there that could grow.
I feel the players are handling the economy well enough, and that introducing the merchants again would undermine the RP efforts of the people who have worked hard to establish themselves as merchants for goods. We have the trade hall on the forums as well as IG resources for players to call on, and I would rather leave the ability to sell items the way it is.
For those that may be in a time zone where less business is available for thier wares I think partnering with a trustworty individual or two in slightly different time zones may facilitate the sale of thier wares.
Vyris
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Ohhh, If you could place a wendor in a craft house...imagine all the money you could earn on simple stuff.
But aside from that I like the player vendor idea, how many can realy offer a greenstone set in copper (almost everybody i guess) but honest, how easy is it to get a hold of that player and purchase the ring for.....300gold?
I would not go through the truble of finding a buy/sale by PM for those kind of products...
I guess and hope this will open the market for "lesser products".
-Naglor
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Well, speaking a someone who is working on their armorsmithing skills and would like to sell their goods, I really dont want a partner or multiple partners at this stage. Right now I'm storing armor in my house in several different chests. Prior to getting lucky enough to find and emerald and buy a house, I was storing armor in the bank and on my cow. It'd also be great to have a vendor sell stuff, especially as I mostly play on weekends.
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I hated them with a passion when we last had them. They caused too much server lag and it was so frustrating to walk into a room with upwards of 40-50 of them all looking the same that I never used one. Even with a high amount of gold required for one, we'd still likely see a huge population of identical twin vendors that folk would have to run around blindly to, one by one, just to find what they're looking for.
I've always felt that the hands on approach of dealing from player to player was best; if somebody wants their own personal vendor, they can always hire another player to do so. The player to player method also helps keep RP heavy, as some players simply do not want their wares being sold to drow or other fell beings. (Bjorn currently gives a 50% discount to other dwarves and charges TRIPLE to any elf variety, except for Talan, who he considers a tall, skinny, shaven dwarf ;) )
If we do re-establish player vendors, I'd like the price hiked on hiring one at around a 100k investment, and limit them solely to already established, standing shops like the Orcbasher's in Hlint. (who never seem to have somebody working when I knock)
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wouldn't it be more RP to have PCs "hire" vendors on an hourly/daily/monthly basis?
The markup would go to the player, not the vendor, since the player is already getting charged for the vendors time.
Given a limited number of booths (as stated above), there would be competition for them ... prices get higher as demand increases. I'd love to be able to outbid another player for a vendor. Offer them more money to get an existing time slot for a booth.
As for storage, it'd be sweet if you could somehow link a vendor to your house storage .. assume that the vendor could go fetch an item to replenish stock. This solves the problem of using vendors as storage .. they contain nothing that's not already contained elsewhere. If a vendor gets outbid, they simply switch to another player's storage chest(s).
Yes, I know, the script don't exist :) Spec'ing requirements for new software projects is my day job, so I tend to run the gamut.
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I did all I could to keep the vendors afloat in the early stages of V2. I cleaned them each day of crap.... I made a forum thread and thos ethat went unpaid for X amount of time were removed.... etc... it was allot of work but as the vendors used to function before they became Lag machines they were great!!!
They are great for people in off timezones, and they are great for seeing what items do, and if you want it bad enough you buy it.
For those who like to haggle you can see that a person has "X" item then you can track them down and haggle untill your blue in the face.
Thank you Leanthar for giving Player Vendors another chance. I hope the community uses them properly.
Some sugestions no clue if any of these are possible but here they are....
1.Customising your vendor (Sex, Race, clothes etc..) yeah I know thats asking allot but that would be huge if it could be done.
2. The ability for the owner to customise what the vendor says.
3. MAKE THEM SO OTHER PLAYERS CANNOT SELL STUFF TO THEM.... Nuff said on that one... hehe.
4. Make them so they will not sell raw components... having a vendor with 347 salts and Stirge wings is what killed the vendors the 1st time.
G-452
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After reading everyone's opinion on the vendors, I agree with Lonnarin, I like the market now, and think it would hurt the world overall to have NPC Vendors. The convenience probably does not outwiegh the cost.
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Why do we not have marked days
a 24 hour slot (or longer) where player venders are up and then pulled down They could be a kind of RPG barra-boy (taking lag into acount).
The Market could be any where at a preset time and all PCs could plaine for it.
The nice thing about the Pub Shop is that lots of Pcs come to one place for a time shoping but do much more.
Like Medievl towns a MArked would not just be a load of shops but an event unlike quests and preset games more a happoning.
If your stocking up ya vender then your useing it as storage but with a market you have to sell ya goods befor the your vender gos
Bargins could be had at the end (cycal the times zone to get the end of market time) and it will have a more othenic feel.
Player veneder mean you dont have to be loged on for the hole time of the market day but still flog ya stuff.
Most towns have a craft house so you could work get moe stuff and work again
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After previewing everyone's comments up to this point, and having played my entire time here on Layo (since February) without player vendors, I would have to say that this idea of a market day would probably be the best use of player vendors. They would not lag the server on a consistent basis nor could they be abused as storage units. And I agree with everyone else: market days are sweet RP events. Everything from guild recruitment to competitions can be taking place as the people peruse the merchants' wares. Basically, once every two weeks or once a month there would be a festival. The Leilon Arms has been rather successful at a small version of this, so I think we could implement this on a bigger scale. Oh, and I think Leilon would be a perfect place to have such a fesitval, being a port town and having the Arms there. Pranzis would also be a prime choice. It has lots of room for shops to be set up and people to wander. Plus, if such market days were held in Pranzis, it would encourage new players to travel more. Alright, I've rambled enough. See ya in game!
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How about player "Chests"?
A player could rent(day/week/month) a chest in a merchant area containing:
1. a parchment with player scribed information.
2. 4 or 5 items, maximum.
3. a stack of money.
The parchment could contain a variety of information including:
--The list and decriptions of the items offered with their prices.
--"The item 'X' is reserved for player 'Y' at the agreed on price of 'Z' gold coins."
--Offers to buy items at a set price with the stack of money in the chest.
A gazette compiled from all the parchments could be on display on the website much
like the tradeskills are displayed now.
Of course, this is an Honor-based system, so how do we protect it?
In RP-terms a "Guard" could be posted next to the chests that will remind
passers-by that the guard knows all the contents of all the chests and is
watching everybody. (He/she could also have a continous True Seeing).
Secondly, no Merchant Chests in Hlint. Maybe the closest in Port Hampshire
or Spellgard? I don't know.
The restricted number of items will still mostly force people to arrange
sales in the normal ways instead of "Windowshopping".
The number restriction will also prevent the sale and purchase of raw
materials (except for the hyper-rare/valuable stuff).
And, of course, Merchant Chests are no substitute for houses.
Finally, is all this too complicated?
Here's an easy solution:
Guilds and only guilds are allowed one Player Vendor.
Thanks for all your effort,
-Tribble (playing Snippi Yertendon)
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My take:
Thinks I like:
- As a crafter having a vendor would be great. My items would be available for purchase 24/7.
- I could make money without being online.
- it would be easier for me to buy the things I need. I could get them quicker.
Thinks I don't like:
- The role play factor for purchasing and trading items would pretty much be gone for me.
- In order to consider trades instead of coins, which I do quite a bit, could not be accomplished with a Vendor.
- Initially only established characters would be able to get them. So I think most people would be inclined to just go to a Vendor instead of hunting down that struggling craftsman that doesn't have the money to buy a vendor and is not on 24/7 to sell his wears. The struggling craftsman would also have to lower his prices to compete. The person that can afford the Vendor... is probably not hurting for coin like the up and coming craftsman who may need to make that sale in order to have the money to continue his craft. So in this case... the rich will get richer.
- The market could get flooded with items. On many occasions I trash items. For example. I take a shot at creating an exceptional item. I may make 10 or even 20 of a particular item and not succeed. Instead of storing them... I trash them. Even though the market value of the trashed items would be over 100k gold. Having a vendor might prompt me to just put them there for sale. Of course vendor space may be limited.. and I do not know what the rules and guidelines might be.
I like the Idea of having a Merchant Fair. This could totally be done by players. Simply pick a city, and a time and post it on the Calendar. It could be monthly or weekly. I think setting a well known time and place for players to be selling wares would be great! Spellguard comes to mind for background reasons. Lots of market booths.
In the Leilon Arms we made a merchant area. There are four crates and 4 tables. Weekly I post for vendors to sign up at a table to sell their wares. It works great! Merchants just drop their items into the crates for folks to browse.
So... I would vote NO to Vendors. YES to player organized merchant fairs and events.
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I agree with cappyra, his 'Things I don't like' outweigh the 'Things I like' in my opinion.
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I played a Server about 2 years ago that had vendors.
You Purchased the Vendor and Placed him/her.
You were given a Bag(-100%weight/content)
You placed the items you were selling in the bag.
You talked to the vendor and typed a price for each item.
When the item was bought the vendor would take his fee and the rest would be waiting for you.
Since it was only 1 Bag you couldnt have to much to lag the server.
Sorry i dont remember the name of the server and I am not a scripter.
Just telling you there is a system out there like that.
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Personally I like things how they are now. As someone who was very familiar with the Vendor system I didn't like it except for a few times. Some times it was nice to be able to buy a weapon or armor from a vendor but now adays, it's just not necessary.
People used to use them and oxen for storage but with as many houses as there are and the ability for several people to share a house by making copies of the original key, there's no need for that either.
I vote to keep it as is.
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I think player vendors were a great idea especially for those like myself who are in a different timezone to most of the other players. To illustrate what I mean take a look at the inventories of my characters....since the vendors were taken out of the game all of my characters have very few custom items basically because its been so hard trying to buy them. So I'd vote for them to be returned to the game.
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Hey Steve! Seek out the two dwarven craftsmen in Fort Llast. They will be able to accommodate any of your needs. :)
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cappyra - 8/22/2005 1:30 PM
I may make 10 or even 20 of a particular item and not succeed. Instead of storing them... I trash them. Even though the market value of the trashed items would be over 100k gold.
I vote for "player trashcans", and I want to buy one near Derrick's favorite crafting place. :)
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As someone who was here for V1 and who used the player vendors a lot, I'd like to comment on my experience with them.
[list=1]
- The main problem, at least with my vendor, was people constantly selling crap to them, instead of the pawn shop merchant right outside. If you remove the ability to sell to player vendors, as G-452 said (Whassup, Enzo?!?!?!), this would solve that problem. If the various merchants won't buy items, it seemsto me player vendors could be set up so they wouldn't buy items from players either. Now, for me personally, my vendor still had a lot of stuff in his inventory, because I made many leather and hide armors, as well as woodcrafted items, but I cannot count the number of times I went to check my vendor and found a page and a half of barley or some such nonsense in his inventory.
- My experience when player vendors existed was that there was actually MORE interaction between me and other players than before the vendors were around. Characters I had never seen or spoken to before were seeing things on my vendor, and finding me to either ask about that particular item, or to see if I could make something similar. And, as others have pointed out, thrre was incentive to seek me out rather than buy from the vendor, because it was substantially cheaper for the buyer. I believe I discounted items 30% if they bought directly from me. In those cases, the vendors served to point people in the right direction, in terms of who made what.
- If player vendors were only given to shop owners, or something similar, this would GREATLY reduce the lag problem, especially if the vendors would not buy things from PC's. I was originally thinking that they could be included as part of the 'package' when a shop was purchased. Obviously, owning a shop is no small feat, and people who had made it that far wouldn't need to use the vendor as a means of storage, either. If there is a concern about too much access to special and magic items, perhaps there could be more than one vendor in a shop, with one vendor selling the more common items, while another would sell the really good stuff, but characters would need special permission (i.e. - lvl req., guild membership or guild granted access, or even class) to buy from him.
I liked vendors, because it freed me up to make the crafts, and to adventure with other players. It also allowed for everyone to have access to a multitude of items. If memory serves, though, most of the high end items I never put on my vendor, because he had the prices all wrong. Still, if someone saw I was selling malar leather armor, it was quite common for them to approach me and ask if I made higher end items, as well. So, for my two cents, I'd like to see a return of player vendors, but only if the old problems could be fixed.
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I completly agree with Chriss Eliss' second point.
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Well, see, when I found my mineral emerald, I realized my life was set on Layo. I don't need to do another thing and Turor can die happy. Cozy in his tax-less house smoking his favorite pipe-leaf. Of course, being the do-gooder he is, he must continue doing... Now I'm rambling.
The thing is, if there were vendors, I would have never sold that emerald. I'm sorely glad I did. It royally ticked someone off, which was almost as worth it as the gold I got for it all.
So. Me = happy without vendors. Turor doesn't craft for money, anyways, he crafts for Dorand's favor. And to help others. Which reminds me, I need to get people together so I can mine some Iron... Hmm.
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Chrys Ellis
#2 My experience when player vendors existed was that there was actually MORE interaction between me and other players than before the vendors were around. Characters I had never seen or spoken to before were seeing things on my vendor, and finding me to either ask about that particular item, or to see if I could make something similar. And, as others have pointed out, thrre was incentive to seek me out rather than buy from the vendor, because it was substantially cheaper for the buyer. I believe I discounted items 30% if they bought directly from me. In those cases, the vendors served to point people in the right direction, in terms of who made what.
QFE
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Diamondedge - 8/23/2005 2:26 AM The thing is, if there were vendors, I would have never sold that emerald.
Ummm, why not? When vendors were used, PLENTY of items were still sold directly between players, ESPECIALLY things like that. The vendors were pretty good about most prices, but completely off on others. I recall that I never sold malar bags through the vendor, because of that, but I had people approach me to inquire if I made them, because of all the other tailored goods I made.