The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => CNR Suggestions/Discussion => Topic started by: Guardian 452 on September 08, 2005, 12:43:00 AM
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... Master of none.
This is some radical thinking mind you.
What if people progressed down a more defined path in crafting?
Say woodcraft, smithing, scribing, food prep, etc etc....
This would mean that those with buffs would no longer be self sufficient crafters in nearly if not all trades just because they can buff their stats.
When you begin crafting you choose a main catagory like woodworking, smithing, tailoring etc.... then your restricted in what you can and cannot due....
Example a Woodcrafter would not be able to make Platearmor, or Scribe scrolls, or make pies (LOL)
My thinking is this could lead to more player interaction and RP (which is what everyone comes here for).
Kick it around a while everyone.
G-452
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Or add a feat requirement for crafting certain items in certain crafts. For instance adding certain class-specific feats like say, Turn Undead would make those items exclusively craftable by specific classes.
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Not that I use the crafting system all that much, but I could deal with the class-restriction on the crafting, but I'm not a fan of restricting us once we pick one.
People change careers all the time. I feel like the craft-locking is too restrictive.
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Perhaps you could only specialize in one tradeskill, lets say armor crafting.
When you have choosen the tradeskill for your character, all other tradeskills would be capped at a certain craftinglevel (5 for example), and you can only advance in your chosen tradeskill above craftinglvl 5.
That way a scribe would have to buy scrolls from the baker and the the weaponsmith buy his axehandles from a woodcrafter.
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Along this same line, what about making recipes that are only available to certain races? I know it is probably a man power thing and if I knew what I was doing, I would help. Anyway, it would be cool if say there was a resource only workable by dwarves or elves or something. I think that would induce more RP as well since you would have to find one of that race to make the item for you.
As to the idea of specializing in a craft, I think there should be an option there that allows specialization. If you take it, you maybe get a minor bonus to that trade and others are capped at a certain level. 5 may be a little low though. Also, maybe have recipes only available to specialists. Kinda like the magic schools where they get bonuses to their school but lose the opposite school. Anyway, make it an option not the only way.
As a side note, I just downloaded the CNR from nwvault. I am sifting through it and trying to figure it out as I go. I may eventually be able to help.
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Actually there is Class and Race restrictions built in to Layonara version of CNR. I forget now who actually did it been a long time. But they also did the exceptional crafting stuff.
Just time making the items and recipes.
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I wouldn't really like to see any crafts restricted, it would be a lot cooler if only certain high-level or even mid-level items would be restricted.
Like needing an experienced dwarven craftsman to get that special blade or armor, a master elven enchanter to get that staff charged up like it should, an elite rogue to get that deadly trap done for you, etc etc...
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Bows of the hunter can only be made by rangers, I think dwarven waraxes can only be made by dwarves.
A while ago when a bunch of the new higher end more unique craftable items got it it was a part of a push for racial items. In the end it was decided (not sure if it was by the team or just L, L posted the decision) that they would not be race specific, that that wasnt the direction that they wanted to go in.
I rather agree. Few items should be restricted by race (their use at least, I'm not so against them only being craftable by certain races.) Its no fun to not be able to use an item because you chose to be x race, and it gives rogues a bit of an advantage because they can use them all anyway.
A lot of crafts and recepies are already restricted by class, by the tools they use and the spells they require. Every couple months a new thread starts complaining about how x class cant do x because they don't have the proficiency for the tool. heh, I find it strange that it was just suggested that more crafting feats be required after seeing the argument made many times that no one should have to take a feat for crafting.
A system like G suggested when he started this thread would be interesting. I'd see it working more like, you choose your specialty, and then recieve +20% xp in all related crafts when crafting and -20% in others or something more flexible like that. A bonus and penalty, but not a flat out restriction (which doesnt make rp sense anyway, where as the 20% does, you learn faster the craft you're specialized at.)
But I think anything like this would definitely have to wait untill the next implementation.
-TV
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"and it gives rogues a bit of an advantage because they can use them all anyway."-TV
Don't forget bards.
And thats only if they spend skill points in UMD.
I don't think its an "advantage" though, its balanced in itself, since they get those points in exchange for say.. the extra feats that fighters have? or somthing else.. for another class...
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Talan
I meant only craftable by certain races. The items made would not have those restrictions on them.
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The whole idea of buffing to increase your chances in crafting should be done away with. (this is were you all throw rocks at me). Casting str on someone to help mine is one thing, it fits well. but casting str to increase your chance of success when crafting does not make sense to me. These types of magics are unstable and should not lend themselves to crafting. I have done this from time to time and each time felt it was cheating in some way.
Cheers,
John
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It's not exactly "cheating". While buffs increase your chance for success, they also reduce the XP you get for succeeding.
And so while you may be relying on artificial means to bolster your own skills, your success is also partially artificial, and you don't really learn as much as you would doing it the hard way.
Just another perspective, is all. I personally don't buff either out of personal choice, unless I really, really need to succeed.....which is rare.
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I think the xp loss balances it quite well. Daeron buffs and he does't really progress in crafting with much speed. Level 7 in gemcrafting is my highest skill after about 4 months.
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Similar topics have been started from time to time and I always remember that Ghost was against any restrictions, well so am I. You seem to forget why people come to Layonara and what do they seek here. People are here to have fun, for some it is the RP, for some it is the adventure and for others, like myself, Ghost and many others, it is crafting. We do it, because we enjoy it or due to some circumstances, like a nearly empty server during the time we play. Most of the time I am online, I craft, I do believe many others do the same thing. If you take it away from us, we will probably play a lot less, as you take the fun away.
Ar7
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Aye Ar7!
I also enjoy crafting very much - feels good to create and for me quite exciting once I create something new.
Also if level restrictions were suddenly imposed many people would be left halfway. Spent a lot of time, effort and money, but not able to progress further and make something truly worthwhile.
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Restrictions, bad idea. Specialization Modifiers good idea. I also remember there being race or class related modifiers to increase your chance at something by tens of percentages. For instance gnome cooking isn't very well liked (Really who else digs turnips?) while halflings seem to have a sense for many different types of food. Humans tended to have the least amount of changes.
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If you start limiting on crafts, you're really going the wrong way. I'm sorry, but I haven't seen any craftable item yet that could not have been made by AD&D humans. Orcs at this moment can not craft I believe, I'm sure that goes for a few others. But to say only elves can enchant a certain thing, nonsense.
I do like the idea of losing access to a particular craft when starting another craft, but the problem is a lot of epics are already at the top in multiple crafts. It would be unfair to take their crafts away, but it would also be unfair to leave it for them, but restrict the others.
Except for Falreign's race related modifiers (abilities are often class determined so the class related system is already used), I don't really see any suggestion that is actually better than the current system.
EDIT: deleted double typings
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A bit of lazyness and a bit pf RP has pushed Celgar into being an enchanter only guy. Yes he does limited crafting in other skills but it for what he needed to enchant. Though he's high in smelting and low in smithing... I need a craft practice and used to enchant ingots to get better at enchanting rods and what not..
I think and this is my personal though... That it should be based on INT.. how many skills you can have... 8-11.. only one.. I mean people with subpar int can figure out how to work a machine or what not...
If this doesn't work... how bout 8-11 one skill can advance to 25 while the restr may mill around at say 5.. and then all levels go up per INT bonues like the Language mods. so an int mod of +2 whould let said player go up another another 5 levels in other crafting if they learned it by doing it over and over..
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Well i don't think that is a good idea, since you often need several trades in order to have one. e.g. if you wanna be a smith you would have to be a smelter, and if you wanna wood craft you would need to food craft etc.. I think all craftings would end in a stand still if we all needed to find one of the few experts on the related trades or go find a wizard since they would be the only crafters left.
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lunchboxkilla - 10/18/2005 1:38 PM
I think and this is my personal though... That it should be based on INT.. how many skills you can have... 8-11.. only one.. I mean people with subpar int can figure out how to work a machine or what not...
If this doesn't work... how bout 8-11 one skill can advance to 25 while the restr may mill around at say 5.. and then all levels go up per INT bonues like the Language mods. so an int mod of +2 whould let said player go up another another 5 levels in other crafting if they learned it by doing it over and over..
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NO NO NO
If this is implemented lots of chars including mine will be invalid or stuck at levels where I have spent a great effort getting, but unable to progress further.
Some players like Ar7 and I are primarily crafters (We do also do quests). Much of my RP revolves around crafting and most of my no cleric interaction is from crafting.
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Ar7 - 10/11/2005 7:18 PM
Similar topics have been started from time to time and I always remember that Ghost was against any restrictions, well so am I. You seem to forget why people come to Layonara and what do they seek here. People are here to have fun, for some it is the RP, for some it is the adventure and for others, like myself, Ghost and many others, it is crafting. We do it, because we enjoy it or due to some circumstances, like a nearly empty server during the time we play. Most of the time I am online, I craft, I do believe many others do the same thing. If you take it away from us, we will probably play a lot less, as you take the fun away.
Ar7
Will bring this forward in the discussion again as it nicely sums up my view.
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My opinion is summed up simply in this: Class-based bonuses.
To elaborate, I am essentially agreeing with those who have said that instead of restrictions, certain classes should get bonuses to various crafting schools. In all honesty, I feel the system could be more realistic if each crafting skill were tied to an appropriate other skill, but not only would that be drastically tedious to implement for our GMs, that sort of thing is already somewhat displayed in the number of skill points per level each class gets. In other words, Fighters and the like (2+INT skill points per level?) would generally be the worst craftsmen, while Rogues (with a whopping 8+INT) would generally be the best. Admittedly, there would be some differences, including a greater inclination towards smithing than Rogues, for Fighters, but the general idea is reasonably apparent.
Now, however, I've got to go get ready to leave. Adieu.
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 10/19/2005 12:02 PM
My opinion is summed up simply in this: Class-based bonuses.
To elaborate, I am essentially agreeing with those who have said that instead of restrictions, certain classes should get bonuses to various crafting schools. In all honesty, I feel the system could be more realistic if each crafting skill were tied to an appropriate other skill, but not only would that be drastically tedious to implement for our GMs, that sort of thing is already somewhat displayed in the number of skill points per level each class gets. In other words, Fighters and the like (2+INT skill points per level?) would generally be the worst craftsmen, while Rogues (with a whopping 8+INT) would generally be the best. Admittedly, there would be some differences, including a greater inclination towards smithing than Rogues, for Fighters, but the general idea is reasonably apparent.
Now, however, I've got to go get ready to leave. Adieu.
Sorry but that is a bad idea. The current system effectively already give class bonuses. A rogue has high dex and often good int. That will make him good at gem cutting. A cleric with good wisdom and charisma will be good at infusion.
Secondly the system we currently uses does not tie in with skill points. If your change was implemented that would leave many medium to high level crafters that don't level very often out to dry. Imagine Rufus a level 23 mage. He is currently among the very best crafters. Now implement a skill sstem on top of crafting and what then. How often would he level? Within a short time span all the current crafters (who have spent a a lot time and effort learning their trades) would be overtaken by beginning characters that level often and thus gain many skill points.
Leave the current system as it is. Unique items are welcome, but restrictions placed upon the system would have dire consequences for many exiting crafters. Thus taking our fun out of the game and making our effort void.
And I see no reason why rogue should be better craftsman than others. They make fine tailors and gemcutters as it is. What would make a rogue a better smith than a fighter or greater enchanter than a wizard?
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 10/19/2005 12:02 PM
My opinion is summed up simply in this: Class-based bonuses.
To elaborate, I am essentially agreeing with those who have said that instead of restrictions, certain classes should get bonuses to various crafting schools. In all honesty, I feel the system could be more realistic if each crafting skill were tied to an appropriate other skill, but not only would that be drastically tedious to implement for our GMs, that sort of thing is already somewhat displayed in the number of skill points per level each class gets. In other words, Fighters and the like (2+INT skill points per level?) would generally be the worst craftsmen, while Rogues (with a whopping 8+INT) would generally be the best. Admittedly, there would be some differences, including a greater inclination towards smithing than Rogues, for Fighters, but the general idea is reasonably apparent.
Now, however, I've got to go get ready to leave. Adieu.
Heh didn't mean to sound quite that grumpy, but any major changes (or minor for that sake) to the crafting system should consider very carefully the position and consequences for existing crafters. So sorry for being grumpy.
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*scratches his beard* I can't help but wonder why the existing crafters are the ones that defend the current system so agressively...
But as one of the high level crafters with many different crafts as well i would hate to see all my work go down the drain as well. If the system should be made class dependend i think it should only have minor influence say figther and barbarians have 5 or 10 % extra chance on succes with weapon and armor crafting, rangers have 5-10 % extra on wood craftin etc.. no more than that.
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Harloff - 10/19/2005 1:17 PM
*scratches his beard* I can't help but wonder why the existing crafters are the ones that defend the current system so agressively...
Because we are the ones who has put effort into it!
;)
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Wintersheart - 10/19/2005 1:32 PM
Harloff - 10/19/2005 1:17 PM
*scratches his beard* I can't help but wonder why the existing crafters are the ones that defend the current system so agressively...
Because we are the ones who has put effort into it!
;)
*slaps his head*
why didn't I think of that...
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Harloff - 10/19/2005 1:42 PM
Wintersheart - 10/19/2005 1:32 PM
Harloff - 10/19/2005 1:17 PM
*scratches his beard* I can't help but wonder why the existing crafters are the ones that defend the current system so agressively...
Because we are the ones who has put effort into it!
;)
*slaps his head*
why didn't I think of that...
Please dont ask me to answer that question Skarp ;)
Runs of laughing....
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Harloff - 10/19/2005 7:17 AM
*scratches his beard* I can't help but wonder why the existing crafters are the ones that defend the current system so agressively...
But as one of the high level crafters with many different crafts as well i would hate to see all my work go down the drain as well. If the system should be made class dependend i think it should only have minor influence say figther and barbarians have 5 or 10 % extra chance on succes with weapon and armor crafting, rangers have 5-10 % extra on wood craftin etc.. no more than that.
That's pretty much what I was saying... (And no, I never said anything about rogues being better at smithing than fighters; quite the opposite, if admittedly in rather akward grammar.) Basically, that the crafting system, if it were to be altered, simply give some small bonuses to various things based on class. Specifically, the number of skill points each class gets. The more the class gets, the more inclined to crafting in general that class would be. In other words, they would perhaps get a percentile bonus equivalent to the number of base skill points they get every level. Cleric, Paladin, Fighter, and Sorceror/Wizard all get 2, Barbarian, Druid, and Monk get 4, Bard and Ranger get 6, and Rogue gets 8. That's not much of a boost, and would be a bit more fitting if perhaps you lowered all of those by 2, as we don't really want to make the crafting system as it stands any easier.
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hmm... I stilll can't see why a rogue should be a better crafter in general. Besides they will most likely be good at most crafts due to their stats, since dex is used in MANY crafts: Tinkering, tailoring, smithing (armor and weapons), smelting, wood crafting, instrument crafting and gem crafting, that is 8 of 15 crafts. Hence a thief is a good craffter as it is.
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oi, this has been brought up across the forums, so this has been said before, but the crafts are already fairly class specific. Why? well, certain crafts require spells, which limits them to casters, certain crafts require tools that one class or another can't use (forcing those determined to craft to use feat slots), and since crafts are based around stats, the classes that tend to excell in the stat required for the specific craft already start off with a bonus in that craft.
I.E. Sorcerors can't mine without ore without a feat (and even then, because low strength, it's really hard), and for the most part, stink at weapon/armor crafting since they lack the strength to boost their chance of success. However, they are naturals at gem crafting, having an extraordinary charisma and usually a decent dexterity, plus they can mine the gems.
Fighters can mine all day, but have the dangdest time with charisma/wisdom/inteligent based crafts.
So, I think, not to mention the coding work, that more class/race based bonuses for the crafting system is not at all needed.
As far as restricting the number of crafts a being can learn, I think that's (no offense) rediculous. There is nothing wrong with a Jack of all trades, master of none. And Intelligence has more to do with how fast you learn a craft, more than whether you can learn it at all. Very simple people can learn a variety of trades and perform them extraordinarily well. It just usually takes them years longer than others to learn them. This is represented in the CNR by the stat bonuses for crafting.
If anything is to be done, I think (and this has also been mentioned before by others) that we slow down the progression of levels, so that if you really want to be a jack of all trades, it will take you ages to get any good at one craft because you have to spread your time and focus so much. I think this would encourage more focus in one or two crafts, as the time it takes to learn that one would be like what it takes to become decent at three to four under the current rate. Also, this would encourage more commerce between players. That is, rather than a weapon smith making his own molds, he chooses to purchase them from a tinkerer, because making the molds takes so much more time.
The disadvantage of this would be that players who are already high-level crafters would have a severe advantage on up and coming crafters.
Of course, as it seems many are interested in starting apprenticeship and teaching sessions, it makes for really good RP that we have strong crafters that can take on apprentices.
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*sighs* I would really like to know why some people try as hard as they can to limit CNR. Why?
Some will say that it would balance the overall economy of the world. But if you look at the current situation, then the people who have reached a high level in a number of crafts are exactly those people that do not sell items for a low price or mass produce them. It is in their best interests to keep the economy stable. Do you really think that people like Plenarius, Gloin, Kobal, Harg, Andraia, Eldarwen, Xiao, Enzo are the ones ruining the economy?
Others will say that it is too easy to become level 20 in all crafts and that ruins the feel of the world. We have hundreds of players, almost all of them craft, but how many master crafters like Gloin do you see? Examine the tradeskill page and you will see that those characters have been here for a long time and they spent most of their time crafting, don't you think they deserve it? And no, it is not possible to become a master in all crafts over night.
So please, stop trying to fix what isn't broken. Our CNR is great, it is already class and race dependant ( as was already said ) and very difficult for a beginning player. If you do not craft, fine, if you do, once again, fine, but any kind of limitation ( especially if it doesn't bring anything good to the world ) always causes frustration and takes away the fun.
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Very well put Ar7, I completely agree.
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Ar7 - 11/3/2005 11:12 AM
*sighs* I would really like to know why some people try as hard as they can to limit CNR. Why?
Some will say that it would balance the overall economy of the world. But if you look at the current situation, then the people who have reached a high level in a number of crafts are exactly those people that do not sell items for a low price or mass produce them. It is in their best interests to keep the economy stable. Do you really think that people like Plenarius, Gloin, Kobal, Harg, Andraia, Eldarwen, Xiao, Enzo are the ones ruining the economy?
Others will say that it is too easy to become level 20 in all crafts and that ruins the feel of the world. We have hundreds of players, almost all of them craft, but how many master crafters like Gloin do you see? Examine the tradeskill page and you will see that those characters have been here for a long time and they spent most of their time crafting, don't you think they deserve it? And no, it is not possible to become a master in all crafts over night.
So please, stop trying to fix what isn't broken. Our CNR is great, it is already class and race dependant ( as was already said ) and very difficult for a beginning player. If you do not craft, fine, if you do, once again, fine, but any kind of limitation ( especially if it doesn't bring anything good to the world ) always causes frustration and takes away the fun.
I also completely agree... Ar7 and I have discussed this IRL quite many times and share this view.
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I Agree, we don't have problems with the crafting system... We have a problems with the economy but that is a different issue and can't be solved by restricting the crafting system, atleast I can't see how it should help...
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*nods in agreement* Well said