The World of Layonara
The NWN Persistent World => Layonara Server => Topic started by: Shotgunbunny on September 11, 2005, 08:36:00 AM
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I'm not sure if this is a bug, so i just posted it here.
I sometimes have problems with creatures following me across areas even though they didn't target me, i have this a lot when i use stealth, for example, i wanted to get some oat from near the ogre at the Zainge river, because it's pretty strong i decided to use stealth, i sneaked past it and got some oat and went back to Port Llast, the ogre never noticed me and just walked around as he always does, but when i got to Port Llast he was suddenly next to me?? :o
Normally i could easily kill the creature on the spot, but the places where i am now have much stronger enemies so i mostly try to lure them to a guard and kill them there, of course this sometimes may be fatal to some animals in the vicinity ;)
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Shotgunbunny - 9/11/2005 11:36 AM
Normally i could easily kill the creature on the spot, but the places where i am now have much stronger enemies so i mostly try to lure them to a guard and kill them there, of course this sometimes may be fatal to some animals in the vicinity ;)
This troubles me a lot. You know that luring creatures to guards like that is against server rules?
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Should he let it kill him then sence he cant kill it? I can understand doing it excisivly would be bad and cheating becouse he can take the loot and not have to fight. But if lets say a mage was being chased out of the grey peaks by 15 ogers.. he cast invis and now there sitting in the middle of the road to llast.. then a low level somthing walks by "dear me...AHHH!!" and runs becouse he cant kill that many ogers. Now if taking them to the guards is against the rules, then where should he go?
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i think what she means is if you go into a fight, lets just say with the orcs north of hlint and you are getin beaten so you run into town with orcs on your tail, that is illegal. I dont think it would be illegal if a low char stumbles on someones spawn that followed them onto a road. But then again, im sure you would see them before they spot you.
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There's something to be said about not getting oneself into situations that one cannot handle. A low-level mage wandering the Grey Peaks darn well ought to have protection, invisibility or both...or stay out.
Now, understandably, accidents happen...spells wear out, someone clicks on a choppable tree instead of the bare ground or CNR plant next to said tree...and so forth. And when in extreme danger, the natural inclination is to run...
However the problem here is that he said this: ...so i mostly try to lure them to a guard and kill them there, of course this sometimes may be fatal to some animals in the vicinity
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...which implies that this is his general practice, and THAT is against server rules. Add to the fact that some of the "animals" to which this practice is sometimes fatal often includes other characters.
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okay, so im fighting orcs north of hlint. I get a few bad rolls and they get a few crits, what should have been an easy fight justturned real bad. What should i do then? i dont see dieing as an option when there is a town with guards in it 100 yards away, you might say that its not very good or what not to lead them into town (alignment i mean) but even then not all chars are good.
Oh and please note this is not ment to be rude it is just a question.
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i understand what u mean but consider this. I was in morakens tower working on some potions. an Orc followed someone in the tower, straight away the orc attacked me. Moraken being the lovable person he is decided to smithe the orc with a meteor swarm which by the way kill the orc and me. Now how would you feel about people bringing even a weak creature in to town then
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BTW ://thats what potions are for. healing...
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@Dorganath
that is true, but i dont speek of him, i mean more of any chars that have this issue. the mage at hand might not have had the spells to stop the ogers, but the point isent that the mage shouldent be doing that, the issue was what happens to the ones that run into stray creatures? Ill give a great example. The swamps between hampshre and velensk, if you dont stay on the wall the lizards spawn. now if i went through there and there were lizards all over and i had no way to get by, and becouse its dark i might not have seen them tell they were seeing me. What should i do, what is approved and not against the rules to do? there are no guards in the two near by towns, the only thing to fight them would be the pawn shops. So what should i do in that situation?
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walking against the walls there will spawn them eaither way...when its real dark press tab, the names come up..then you can navigate
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@HooD!uM
...Lol, okay well that is the one place you dont want to take creatures, Moraken tends to use excisive force... but what about the other char, if it would have been me i would have been very sorry for that, but assume he dident take the monster into the tower, he would have had to let himself die. Now i dont sugest taking anything to Moraken becouse he is like to kill everyone in the building just to get one dang orc lol. But taking it to the NPC in northeren hlint, is that an option or is it agaist the rules?
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Okay i dont mean to keep tossing out "What If..." things but lets look at the grifions between hope and hampshire then. I have stayed on the road and got attacked by them before I happened to have somthing to make me invis at the time so i was fine. but what about someone that dose not. what do they do in the case they are getting chased by somthing they did not actavate purposly (ambushed?) and that they can not kill? Again i just want to make shure you know im not tring to give a hard time i just want to know what is and isent accepted.
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BTW ://thats what potions are for. healing...
Not everyone has potions.
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My problem is actually that these things show up eventhough i didn't not get into a fight with them, they didn't even see me! I just had another one of these encounters, in the Battle Fens i believe, there was a bunch of ghouls, i observed them from a distance and examined them, and then decided they were too hard for me so i just continued, i casually walked to the transition, nobody following me? nope, ok let's go! *Zoof* Area Loaded! And guess what, a ghoul right next to me!
But just for the record, i always, i mean ALWAYS, try to fight them, but when they're too hard it won't help much, i mean, this creature shows up here, although he followed no one, starts rampaging things he SHOULD never have seen, and i invainly sacrifice myself by dying at the creatures hands, really, that doesn't help anybody.
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taking a creature to any Npc to save ur butt is against the rules. To be safe, carry alot of healing kits and potions. but regarding running into other peoples "leftovers" you normally would see them unless they are at the edge of transitions. I know this to be annoying, ive ran into these before, especially them Mercs around the edge of the road to fort Llast, where someone tried to fight them and either ran and got away, or died and they just hang around the road edge. But say i was lvl 1 and i ran into thoes mercs in the goblin wastelands, my first instincts would to run towards town, even tho you would loose nothing at all. But then again, they follow you in town, and kill another char before the guards get to them.....You wont be the most liked person in town for awhile..
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everyone should have potions...if not buy em from me!!! :P
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Okay, it seems you still don't understand the problem.
None of those creatures saw me, or followed me, or attacked me or whatever, i continue on my way and load a new area, and voila, there's an enemy i saw just a second ago right next to me.
I very much doubt that these are creatures agro'd by others, since they're always a creature i saw in the area i just came from and there are very few people in the areas where i am now.
And by the way, i lure them to the npc's to have a better chance at killing them, not to have a chance at running, i mean, what else are the guards for then? Lag?
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Shotgunbunny - 9/11/2005 9:36 AM
Normally i could easily kill the creature on the spot, but the places where i am now have much stronger enemies so i mostly try to lure them to a guard and kill them there, of course this sometimes may be fatal to some animals in the vicinity ;)
I WONDERED why all the chickens were dead when i was trying to find them today.
-TV
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In Valensk? that was me then, i guess, i am willing to accept full responablity for this, if i must.
EDIT: By the way, Hoodlum, tab is most likely my most used key in this whole game. :) How do you think i was able to spot those ghouls in Battle Fens without agroing them?
New edit: the ghouls weren't in Battle Fens and the town wasn't Valensk, the ghouls were is Broken Forest i believe and the chickens which died because of the ghoul were in Fort Hope.
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While I admit that when I started I did this to some degree, the when I stopped to think about what I was doing, I stopped. For all intents and purposes, you were called to be a hero. I know there are some who RP it differently and some look at it differently, but you are called to be a hero in the fight against Blood. Luring creatures to be killed by NPCs is not very heroic.
It sounds silly, but I do it all the time and I have seen many others do it. If you get into a situation where you are getting stomped on, run around. Dont transition, just run around and pick your moments to strike. If you fall, you fall. Watch where you are going from now on. I still havent learned that lesson, but I can run around the creatures with the best of em!
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Argh, you don't seem to understand. I can't help it that those thing are coming after me! When i enter a transition there is nobody around, and when i load the other area i have a monster right next to me.
Which i so wisely decided to avoid because it was too powerfull for me, so it won't do much good if i die trying to kill it, instead i lure it to a guard and then i kill it.
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OK, listen everyone....
As I said, accidents happen. Monsters get lured out of their little areas, whether intentionally or not, by characters. Sometimes they get themselves into spots they can't get out of, other times they just happen to get too close, or the monsters wander too close. And my guess is that those that seem to follow you through the transition were already there, dragged by someone else. Or they were behind you and you didn't notice.
Whatever.
The issue with luring has to do with respect for other players. You may burst into town with orcs on your tail and rush into the happy arms of Garent or Talon or whoever. Or you may stumble over some brand new player just in from the Dragon Dream. Think about that for a moment. When you come bursting through those doors, you do not know who you will encounter, and how fair is it to others if they die because you didn't want to?
We could play "what if" all day long. To maintain a practice of luring monsters to towns in order to count on the pawn shops and chickens to kill them is what concerns us here. Accidents happen, but one should not make a practice of it.
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Dorganath is exactly right and it is the rules of this server. There are no exceptions to this, they are there for a reason. Sorry if you don't like them, but that is the rule(s) and they will remain--period.
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Could someone respawn the chickens in hope and velensk if it hasnt reset yet?
-TV
Edit: acctually, this doesn't really matter all that much. It'll probably reset before too long (it might have already anyway.)
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You have to keep in mind that the towns are not only populated by adventurers. A town like Hlint is full of innocent townfolks, women, children, old people...You would really have to a very morally disturbed character to find an IC reason to drag monsters into such a place. Same goes for Hope and Velenst of course...it's not just chickens that are sacrificed to safe your hide.
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Hmm.. I have sortof a 'Devils advocate' argument to this.
I read a lot of fantasy novels and stuff (Mostly Forgotten Realms). There are many times throughout these types of stories that have the 'heroes' being overwhelmed and racing toward the safety of a towns gates.
Yes, there are women, children, etc in a town like Hlint, but realisticly, there would also be multiple guards stationed at every gate, some walking the walls, Barracks nearby for reinforcements.
On the Gameplay aspect: The only reason this is not allowed is because it can be considered an exploit if done intentionally. In shotgunbunny's example, using an NPC as a tank while you kill the monster would be illegal. If you must do something like this, let the NPC finish the monster. Or help, but make sure you don't get the last hit. Then you leave the loot on the ground to get cleaned up by the server.
I don't know.. I have done this a few times. On a system where Perm-Death is a very real possibility, and 'logically' running to a town "full of guards" would save my life, I'd be running for the guards. Forcing a death just because you stepped in the wrong place and running to the guard is not an option seems a bit harsh to me.
Just my 2 cents..
-Dark Jester
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Dark Jester...and everyone else -
I observed someone getting out of a near-death experience just last night, and he did it the right way...that is he did not involve town NPCs. The rest of his party had fallen in the Krandor crypts, he had three really nasty undead on his tail and he was down to very few hit points himself. He ran around, however, stopping to heal and hit occasionally, then ran again, putting some distance between him and the undead...heal and hit...and run and heal and hit. He got the number down to two undead, and then was able to get himself healed to the point where he could take on the remaining two and eliminate them. No cows, chickens or pawn shops were harmed or even came into play.
So the point is that it can, and should, be done. Making a habit of running to an NPC to escape one's own death is bad RP and exploitive of the game engine for reasons that have nothing to do with loot or XP.
Edit: And just for clarification...we're not "forcing death" upon players who go where maybe they shouldn't... But if you're going to extrapolate realism, then consider that when you're dragging orcs back to town, you may be forcing death on guards and commoners alike for your inability clean up the mess you created or your own unwillingness to die for your own mistakes. And you're not dragging back just three of them, but probably more like 30.
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Leanthar - 9/11/2005 8:06 PM Dorganath is exactly right and it is the rules of this server. There are no exceptions to this, they are there for a reason. Sorry if you don't like them, but that is the rule(s) and they will remain--period.
We can go back and forth with different scenarios but I think this pretty much sums it up.
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as i said....buy healing kits....they save lifes...
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But, even though the rules have been stated, there's still the initial problem, which is, monsters appearing at transitions even if you didn't aggro them, this is the reason why i try to let an npc tank so i can kill them, they're just too strong for me, that's why i avoided them in the first place, but still they show up when i go through an area transition, and that's not right, and don't give me stuff like: "You aggro'd them by accident" I have had more then once, a monster did not see me, did not follow me, did not attack me, i didn't do anything to them, and yet they show up right next to me when i enter a new area.
I understand that using the npc's as tank is against the rules, but it's the only thing i could do, if i had died trying to fight a creature which was far too powerfull for me, it'll also kill other players when they come by, but if i lure them to an npc's and then kill them, nobody will die.
Let me just put it this way: They attacking me in an unfair way(they show up even though i didn't aggro them)so i kill them in an unfair way(using the npc's as tank). I know it's against the rules, but creatures showing up at area transitions even though they weren't aggro'd is(i hope) also against the rules.
And also, i am being blamed (maybe not in words, but i know all you guys now see me as a creature-to-town-lurer)because of something which would not have happened if those creatures didn't show up even though they weren't aggro'd, think about that.
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Shotgunbunny. If you cannot face your enemies, dont seek them out. Period.
You can argue back and forth forever, and you will still be wrong on this matter. Drawing enemies into town and having them attack enemies, and maybe get killed by these is causing man-slaughter. Meeting enemies directly in transition areas unfortunately happens, but the rules are still clear on this subject. If you are doing this in-game you are breaking the rules and will have to face the consequences of your actions.
Harlas
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Shotgunbunny - 9/11/2005 11:36 AM
I sometimes have problems with creatures following me across areas even though they didn't target me, i have this a lot when i use stealth, for example
Stealth is not guaranteed. I have tried using stealth and it works for a while and then the creature would see me and then attack. I am not sure on how NWN mechanics work and if the creature gets multiple checks after a certain duration, but that is what it looked like to me. Anyway, is it possible that you are using stealth and at one point you are walking by the creature unnoticed, but as you are leaving the creature sees you. When you transition then the creature appears beside you.
Shotgunbunny - 9/12/2005 11:50 AM
But, even though the rules have been stated, there's still the initial problem, which is, monsters appearing at transitions even if you didn't aggro them, this is the reason why i try to let an npc tank so i can kill them, they're just too strong for me, that's why i avoided them in the first place...
But you didnt avoid them. You used stealth and walked by them as stated in your original post.
Shotgunbunny - 9/12/2005 11:50 AM
I understand that using the npc's as tank is against the rules
But regardless, *points up at your quote* , you understand that it is against the rules. Breaking the rules is what it is whether the creature saw you or not.
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This is another one of those cases that shows that nothing can be perfect and that no rule is ever perfect and sometimes is even a little unfair. There is only so much we can do here guys/gals, only so much. The rule is in place and it will be enforced. Clearly what I stated above was not enough and people want to continue to argue until they are blue in the face. Like it or not the rule stands and it will be enforced.
I am locking this thread because no matter how we say it people just want to continue with various reasonings/discussions etc. Trust me guys/gals we have heard all of them--been doing this for over three years now.
It is one thing to voice thoughts/concerns etc. but when it just continues to go on and on and on, well it gets sort of pointless.
Sorry, but please follow the rule.