The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Roleplaying => Topic started by: Ioskeha on September 22, 2005, 02:03:00 PM
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I'm relatively new to playing DnD. I've only been playing it for seven or so months now. I have no experience with playing DnD outside of NWN; all my role-playing experience has come from playing MUDs. With that said I think the hardest stat for me to role-play is Charisma.
In MUDs that have used this stat I've always thought of them as your characters base personality. If you have a high Charisma your character will most likely have a positive outlook on life, if it's low then they'll tend to have a negative outlook. Now I'm not saying that a character with a high Charisma score couldn't have a negative personality or vice versa, but more along the lines of decision making. Like lets stay that you're in a party. This party has decided to setup an ambush. A charcter with a higher then average Charisma would think that this ambush would work with little to no harm to the part, while a character with a lower then average Charisma would think that this ambush is a bad idea and that too many people would be injured, and a character with average Charisma would follow the general flow of the party.
How far off is my reasoning with this?
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To be honest, I don't really role-play charisma, apart from the fact I scare people...litterarry I am a necromancer with charisma 8. But, I tend to sometimes take leadership role in parties, or leave it to someone else.
Wouldn't worry too much about that in my opinion.
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Charisma in NWN really means two somewhat different things. First, it is your physical attractiveness -- how good looking you are. This is hard to role play, as you don't know the Charisma score of those around you. I just try to go by the appearance of the avatar and trust that people with high or low charisma will do something to look the part.
The other, more game-mechanics part of charisma is stage presence or leadership. A person with high charisma radiates decisiveness and confidence. He or she is a natural leader, the person with the plan, the one you would follow into battle. High charisma people just seem powerful and leave others in awe of them. That is why this stat is used for undead turning. An impressive, confident cleric has more impact on the undead -- and the living, for that matter. Bards need high charisma to catch and hold the attention of a group, and inspire the troops via the bardsong. Sorcerers draw their magic from that inner well of power and strength that exhibits itself externally as charisma, and charisma allows them to command that power with authority.
So in your example, the party would have decided to set up the ambush because the high charisma guy said, "Listen, we're going to set an ambush -- and who's with me!" A character with less charisma would follow the leader unless he or she had a good reason not too, maybe even if they thought that it was a mildly bad plan, all because they had been talked into it by Capt. Charisma.
Just my thoughts as a guy with 15 charisma. Strength and Dex were my dump stats. Yep, I'm worthless in battle, but people should listen to me, darn it.
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I would think that something like setting up the ambush would be covered by Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. The Wisdom will come into play to help a character determine whether or not an ambush is a good idea to begin with, and then later if it is a good idea based on the plan figured out. I'd think that a character would use Intelligence to come up with the plan, either good or bad depending on the Intelligence score and rolls. Then Charisma would come into play regarding a character's ability to convince others that her or his plan is a good one. The more Charisma that character has, the more likely they are to convince the group.
Charisma is a tough one to RP, as it comes into play in RP situations in the interaction between two characters. My suggestion is to use you dice bags, even though there is nobody there to regulate it. Let's say you are tying to convince your party that the ambush is a good idea. So, explain your idea briefly and roll a persuade check. Then the people in your party can roll a will save. If the persuade is higher, then the persuasion worked. The others in your group might also want to put modifiers on their own rolls, which you should allow them to do for the sake of flexibility. For example, if you come up with the worlds worst ambush plan and try to convince people of it, it'll be far more difficult than if it is a good plan.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Hope they help. Talk to you soon.
Rhizome
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I keep waiting for less wordy people to answer this so I don't have to figure out how to get my point across.
I feel that charisma in your example, would be the ability to lead or convince others into setting that ambush, whether or not its a good idea (which would likely be determined by intelligence). An intelligent and experienced character that *knows* it's retarded, but just doesn't work well with others and isn't so easily welcomed and trusted by strangers may have a better plan that is passed up simply because he didn't have the force of character that a highly charismatic individual does.
Edit- Oh, well, wait no longer. Bad timing as usual for me. :)
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I'm a lot like Acacea when it comes to explaing stuff it seems. :)
What I meant to say is how the person feels about the ambush that has already been set into motion. A person with high Charisma would feel like it's a good idea and think that the outcome will be positive, while a person with low Charisma would feel that the ambush is a mistake and will have a negative out come. You know seeing the cup half full or half empty.
I do appericate you guys/gals helping me understand this, but I didn't word my question properly.
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Actually, I knew what you meant, I just disagree and feel the responses given were more, you know, having something to do with someone's charisma.
I think that the intelligence and general workability of the plan, combined with the intelligence of those participating would contribute more to how a character would feel about the plan.
The half giant with the ultra low charisma may happily be optimistic in thinking that just running into the room to smash the whole horde would work out for him, and end up taking the Hlint Express back to town and sit at the bindstone thinking "Me thought that wurk gud." Because he's, you know. Not so smart.
Edit- But it's more just because I think the half full/empty thing (even about a decision once made) just completely depends on the character and not so much a single stat.
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To be honest, im not sure physical appearance or outlook on life have a whole lot to do with it. They may helop a bit, but to me the main thing about charisma is charm, leadership ability, and force of personality.
For example, Jet has a charisma of 8, so he doesn't talk much about anything besides his business, which is combat. He will often just shout orders in combat, not paying any attentiont to whether people think his orders are a good idea. Drake, on the other hand, has a charisma of 15 and does his best to rally the party together and take ideas from everyone. He also makes plenty of small talk in town with others.
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That's exactly why I asked this question. I'm playing a Half-Giant that has higher then average Intelligence (by human standards) lower then average Wisdom, and a very low Charisma score. And I'm trying to figure out how to work his Charisma score into his personality.
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I am no expert on this subject and to get the full benefit of the cha modifier a roll needs to be made. But, say your char (from above) tried to convince me of a plan of attack. It could be a really good idea but your low charisma, makes you hard to listen to seriously. You have a hard time getting your points across and I (as a pc in general) am more inclined to hear what the guy/gal with a high charisma score has to say.
So your character comes up with an idea. no one really hears you. The Bard (with high Charisma and int, maybe wis) hears you and gets everybody's attention and repeats the plan. hmmm, that bard has a good idea. :)
this is my take on it. To have this work rolls need to be made though.
I also am of the school of thought that a charisma score has a little to do with looks. But it is race specific, A beautiful orc is beautiful to other orcs but still ugly to a human and vice versa.
Etin
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Didn't read all the other posts, wasn't in the mood. :P
But here's my view on charisma.
Charisma is the strength of ones words.
Daeron for example never gets listened to, he has a low charisma and apparently all the other players know that as well.... *nods* Never gets taken serious.
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Thanks a lot everyone. I think I have a good understanding on how tp role-play this stat now.
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Just to add, Pendar has an average charisma. His is mostly polite to people but can be abrasive and get on peoples nerves, especially when asking questions. He can some times speak without tact and does not suffer fools easily.
So that means he can annoy people, but others like him for whom he is.
Ward on the other hand has an above average charisma and is very spiritual, good natured and attractive, but not one for jokes.
I know that my next character, if I ever make him, will have a dark humour to suit his past. Again his charisma will be above average to make him more interesting to play rather than a Str, Con, Dex maxed fighter that is as think as a brick and does not know when to come in out of the rain.
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I don't like the charisma stat. They should replace it with an "influence" stat.
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Despite most people seeming to not care about charisma, i think it is actually very important that people know how to role play it. For example, it really fills me with fury when a bard rolls something like a 36 perform check, and *sings a wonderfully beutiful song*, and then some fool with an 8 or 6 charisma puts *sings that very same song* without even rolling a perform check! it is situations like this when high charisma characters would probably think "WHAT THE HELL". Characters with high charisma should be respected. And charisma, though hated and ignored by some, is one of the most important stats in role play.
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I'd like to offer my input on the importance of charisma.
As I've been playing the two characters, Pyyran and Cynn Reyer, I've come to notice something: Cynn, despite having a much, much lower charisma score, is much more well-liked by those she interacts with. Perhaps a lot of this issue is simply my own possibly sub-par roleplaying in this area, but my attempts to play a higher WIS, lower CHA, and roughly equal INT have essentially made a more likable person in Cynn than Pyyran. Pyyran is flamboyant, occasionally loud, and rather persuasive. He's an attractive fellow who fills the shoes of your archetypal swashbucklery rogue. But he has a low wisdom score, and doesn't often read into people as well as he probably should. (By low, in his case, I mean 10.) His temper's a bit shorter, and he has a tendancy to speak less plainly than Cynn.
Wisdom and Intelligence are just as important to roleplay as Charisma.
In the case of someone with an 8 charisma trying to copy a Perform check of 36, well... They could get a 19, theoretically, but the basic idea is that they would butcher whatever the other person did. Badly. We have to remember that a Perform check of 10 is Farmer Joe singing the Drinkin' Song of Annie Lou - dead average for a normal person. 36... That should be a performance to sweep away the soul, and it represents, for someone with, say, 20 ranks in Perform, a not inconsiderable effort. If someone's just singing a diddy, they'll usually not do anything more than about a check of 20, even if they have more ranks than that - it's just a matter of them not putting in thier full effort. Myself, as a person... I've got about 3 ranks in Perform, if I had to rate myself. Then a +2 to a check for making music, thanks to a moderate CHA, and I could make up to a 25 check, assuming I were a character in D&D with those stats. However, as I sit here and whistle to myself, it's nothing more than, say, a check of 12, because I'm not putting any real effort into it.
D'you follow?
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IMO they should break the CHA stats into two and Have Looks and Personality. This way there could be no confusion on what CHA is and does. Some schools of thought say one thing some say another, i'm not going to agree or disagree with either schools of thought instead i'm going to throw a cruve ball at the whole thing and say that its been due for a long time in DnD Cha needs the boot and replace it with Looks and Personality.
I also agree with most of what i've read here to a point, but I still feel looks have nothing to do with Charisma :P
Peace
Den
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Heh, good luck twisting the arm of the editors from WOTC with that one Denizen.
Anyway Charisma will always be one of those attributes that raises many arguments extracting everyones expert opinions. Fact is no one will ever seem to agree with a generic ruleset for the stat so I'm with Orth using your Dicebag wherever possible. We've got one so lets use it.
We can all spend infinite hours discussing flaws with the DnD system. Acutally in my opinion I think its riddled with them. But where will it ever stop? We simply need to enjoy what we've got, and make sure its used fairly in the world of RP.
So whilst i agree with many people's opinion, i believe Charisam is both Influence and Presence. You can have more of one, or the other, even both. Its an important stat for gameplay and I'd like to see it used effectively.
Cheers,
Polak76
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One name
Weston Pendrot
Says it all
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The book in D&D's extensible D20 system that deals with *ahem* sex, which will not be named here, does do this by dividing the Charisma stat by producing a new base stat - Appearance. APP is simply physical beauty, of whatever sort. A gold dragon, for example, would have a spectacular APP, as would a nymph, or a comely member of any race. CHA is then relegated to the duty of force of personality. Appearance still plays a role, of course, because it can be harder for those of below-average attractiveness to convince others to follow them. However, a skilled orator (think Martin Luther King, Churchill, or, on the LE side of things, Hitler) need not be terribly attractive physically to win people over with sheer force of personality.
The reason why the D&D rulebooks don't separate this stat initially, I believe, is because they wanted to keep with six stats: there's a lovely symmetry to six - the product of two primes, the sum of the first three numbers, etc. - and any more and you start to wonder why, say, DEX isn't separated into agility and manual dexterity, and so forth.
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I have just started to play a new character Boon Loom. He is an fighter into the bone. when he goes out for adventuring and hunting he is often the party leader or the ones that take the lead and the rest follows. His stats in wis and cha is 8 so it isnt based on that. He doesn't need to persuade the others.. his confident and strenght in battle and his skills as a fighter makes the other think that this man knows what he is doing. he sure knows how to fight. so in this case his strong actions instead of his strong personalitys makes him a leader. He have studied warfare whole his life... (int 14) so he knows what he is doing on the battle field.
So what I'm tryinfng to say is that cha is a verry flexible modifyer that you don't have any rules for. A fighter like Boon with low cha can be a party leader that people will listen too altough his low cha.
Its not like strenght that is more like an black and white thing. either you are verry strong.. or you are verry weak. much easier to make up some sort of rules in this case.
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I have always been curious what the mysterious "seventh" stat is. "Seven" is a number of completion, and by that token, there must be one more stat. It's not appearance, though that was a nice try. :P :P
Anyway, a major reason why Charisma is such a subjective thing is due to the fact of Circumstance. That is, depending on the situation, a person may come across as more or less charismatic. Such as in the instance of Boon Loom. Mechanically, when in battle or heading off to one, Boon apparently gets a "circumstance bonus" to all charisma based checks. His ability and knowledge on the field of battle afford him that. Were he to try and oversee the construction of a magical portal, he'd be scoffed. No one would follow his leadership in such an endeaver unless he somehow previously proved he could pull it off.
And that goes to the idea that leadership is not as often based on force of personality, but on trust. Force of personality can forge trust, but so can proven skill and experience.
This of course lends to the idea that charisma is more about physical appearance and mannerisms than the ability to lead or even to gain followers.
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Maybe people are just following the guy who looks like he can find the most trouble. I'm pretty sure that's why Cole ends up with a small army...
when he goes out for adventuring and hunting he is often the party leader or the ones that take the lead and the rest follows.
When he goes out for adventuring and hunting
So here we have a character who has a plan. He needs some ore or some skins, or maybe just wants to go kill something.
he is often the party leader
Is it not this character who has the plan of action? It's his expedition, so he's the "leader". A lot of others will gather about just to get a piece of the action. Charisma is not really a part of this equation. "That guy is doing something. Let's follow him."
or the one that takes the lead and the rest follow.
Sometimes, people need a spark to get moving. They wait until someone else acts. Sheep, basically. They flock together. "Oh, we're moving." The character who takes action will often get some followers. Once again, "That guy is doing something. Let's follow him."
This is not an example of true leadership. With a Charisma of 8, a character should actually be a rather poor leader overall. No doubt an experienced fighter could give some tactical advice, but that doesn't mean he has the interpersonal skills needed to be a LEADER. Leaders have a special oomph! that can embolden those around them to greater deeds. It's hard to put it into words, but it's definitely a Charisma thing.
In my opinion, if you take an 8 Charisma then play a confident character with good manners, a powerful voice, and a rallying oratory that would make the gods bow low, you are cheating. If you don't think you can play Charisma well, buy it to 10 and act normal.
In making that statement, I am NOT suggesting that Frelinder has tried to gain an advantage by taking a lower Charisma. I am suggesting that any character with a below average Charisma should be abrasive or rude or somehow unsocial to reflect that fact.
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Agreed. In addition, while being confident is a matter of INT, WIS, and the rest, projecting confidence, so that, as Frelinder said, "other
think that this man knows what he is doing. he sure knows how to fight" is a function of Charisma. A charisma of 8, while possibly not actively repellant, should at least make a character distasteful - either with an abrasive personality, overwhelming shyness, a speech disorder, or homely physical appearance. 8 is, after all, two steps below "average". Anyone with a CHA of 6 should be actively repellant to those around them.
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Yeah, I've seen a few threads like this one, based on the whole 'what does charisma represent' topic and in my opinion, I think that charisma shouldn't really have anything to do with physical attractiveness, I mean, a female dwarf may have high charisma, but there's still the fact that they have beards. I think charisma should really just represent how charismatic they are, how not... socially inept they are, and how good they are at leading.
Just my opinion though, i might be completely wrong :)
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I was thinking a little about that a earlier.
According to the standard rules, Charisma does involve physical attractiveness. That works fine in a P&P game, where there are only a few characters and the DM knows each pretty well, and just about everything is in the imagination. Here, though, there are problems with it, and it's better not to include looks too heavily in Charisma.
First, there are hundreds of characters being played on Layonara. There is no way any DM or player can know exactly which of them are supposed to be ugly or handsome/pretty and act accordingly every time.
Second, the graphics don't give many options. All the models are the same, so (pretty much) everyone has a great body, even if they shouldn't. Now check out the portraits. How many of them are truly ugly? How many are average or plain?
On top of that, I honestly believe most people ignore Charisma when creating their characters, except in the case of Bards, Clerics, and Paladins. I suspect there are a lot of 8's. So, if everyone is going to look that good, shouldn't they have terrible personalities to properly represent their Charisma stats?
Including appearance in Charisma in this format just doesn't work very well.
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Well if everyone else has had a say......
I play a PC who is deliberately ugly. not just plain looking but the sort of girl who if the choice was between snogging her and snogging a zombie, the zombie would end up thinking this undead lifestyle is pretty neat!
Without a comeliness stat I gave her a deliberately low Charisma. However I try to ensure her ugliness has also affected the rest of her personality. She doesn't like to lead - that means being looked at!
Charisma is difficult to play in NWN and I suggest that people think carefully about it before they create there character. In the name of RP you may decide to sacrifice that all important primary stat to accurately get your charisma right. If you look at a real life/nwn comparison I would say look at (grabs dictionary of Americanism) Jocks (Paladins?) and the class joker (bard?). Both are popular and charismatic but in different ways.
In addition if you play a horribly sarcastic individual then maybe a bard/paladin/sorc isn't the role for you as people will dislike you and perceive you as a PC with low charisma (there are some on Layonara you know who you are!)
While charisma may certainly dictate leadership ability it shouldn't dictate groups of friends. When I was at school (memories are little hazy that many years ago) low charisma people formed there own groups of friends - they were called nerds by others and Role-players by themselves. But they had their own well adjusted social groups.
In addition a real brute is likely to have lots of friends as people always like big people just in case they get into a fight. Looking back at the school yard again I give you the bully. Big, dumb and with the sex appeal of Ghast. Generally no social skills that didn't involve toilets and other peoples head. but he was popular in his own unique way.
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That's why one shouldn't min/max... ;)
Personally, I try to avoid putting 8:s in int/wis/cha, except when creating characters that *should* have low on those abilities (like, half-orcs).
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when role playing I make decisions about what my character would do based on my stats, Charisma included. My fighter has a below average charisma, I don't lead parties, I follow. I have noticed that many folks have done a nice job of playing characters with limited intelligence. I think it is tempting to min/max charisma because if we ignore it while roleplaying it has such limited effect on game play. If you character has a low charisma and you lead large groups and talk folks into things not with the dice bag but with you own keyboard charm you aren't really roleplaying. If you have a low intelligence and constantly use your own high intellect to propose sollutions you aren't really roleplaying. For me playing within the boundaries of all my stats is what make roleplaying fun. However, playing a character with a high stat in charisma or intelligence would be a real stretch for me as I don't possess either of those myself. ;)
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Zug has low CHA, below average INT, and above average WIS. This makes for an interesting combination.
I try to play him more as a follower. Whenever he's been the leader (nominally) of a party, he constantly is asking what should be done next, where to go, whatever. Pretty much a one-track mind ("what need be smashud?"). He's likely to say something coarsely and/or tactless in conversation, and he never seriously tries to bluff or persuade (with or without the dicebag).
The INT/WIS combination I play as dumb, but with kind of a folksy wisdom. He's not smart enough to come up with great ideas, but every once in a while, he can say something that is profound in its own simple and rustic way.
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Didn't read all the other posts, wasn't in the mood.
But here's my view on charisma. ;)
Charisma is a PCs aura:
Example. A stranger walks into a local bar
cha 6 - You notice the stranger and he/she gives you a bad feeling in the guts -
cha 10 - you dont even notice the stranger - just a normall feller/fellar
cha 14 - You notice him/her and the stranger looks trustworthy
cha 18 - no idea...........
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Varka - 4/28/2006 9:06 AM
Didn't read all the other posts, wasn't in the mood.
But here's my view on charisma. ;)
Charisma is a PCs aura:
Example. A stranger walks into a local bar
cha 6 - You notice the stranger and he/she gives you a bad feeling in the guts -
cha 10 - you dont even notice the stranger - just a normall feller/fellar
cha 14 - You notice him/her and the stranger looks trustworthy
cha 18 - no idea...........
On that scale...
CHA 18 - you'd follow the stanger into a highly dangerous situation, if asked
CHA 25 - you'd follow the stranger to certain death, if asked
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I find some look at low stats far too harshly. Micheal started life with a 9 int. Doesnt that roughly correspond to a 90-99 IQ? Anyone care to hazard a guess to what percentage of the human population falls in that range, with the avg just above 100? I think a lot of the half giants have an int of 8, yet can barely speak. I think they need to have lower int to get to that level, down around 6 or so. Chr is others perception of you, very hard to role play, since no matter what you do, you cant force others to respond appropriatly, and the medium doesnt have enough bandwidth to get all the little details across. How others percieve you (chr) is affected by so many more things than speech and appearacne. Gracefullnes, stance, body language, smell, culture, and others percieved reaction to you to name a few.
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Yup, charisma is super situational and subjective. What one race/culture may think is graceful or commanding, another may think is trash.
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Yosemite Sam - 4/28/2006 Chr is others perception of you, very hard to role play, since no matter what you do, you cant force others to respond appropriatly, and the medium doesnt have enough bandwidth to get all the little details across. How others percieve you (chr) is affected by so many more things than speech and appearacne. Gracefullnes, stance, body language, smell, culture, and others percieved reaction to you to name a few.
While true, I have found it possible to touch on more of the senses often ignored, which gives other PC's more information to percieve you by. Ultimately it is still up to them and how they respond, appropriate to sombody with a high or low cha or not... but it helps a lot.
For example: Anybody that has recieved a letterfrom Kali, or has had the oppertunity to get close enough to her, knows her perfume, or how she smells.She also has small gracefull mannerismsand random emotes that at least willmake most stop and consider responding to her high cha. Its just all about description, and taking the time to use words often related to all the seneses.
Contrasting that, Lalaith, with a much lower cha is often covered withdirt and wiping blood and sweat from her face with the back of her hands. Though very graceful, intelligent,andprobably pretty, she certainly doesn't have the same charismatic mannerisms as Kali.
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@Yosemite Sam - bear in mind, some of the half-giants/half-ogres who can barely speak wouldn't have been taught Common as children... so they're individuals of lower-than-average intelligence trying to pick up what is, to them, a foreign langugage. In that context, it makes perfect sense that they can't speak. Bear in mind, 95% of the population (1.96 standard deviations) range within the IQs of 71 and 129 - So between an approximate INT of 7 and 13, taking the GAP of IQ = INT * 10. Anyone at 7 or below, then, is quite astonishingly dim, while anyone with an IQ above 13 is amazingly bright. I don't think this is ENTIRELY accurate, but regardless, anyone with less than double digits in the INT column isn't going to be too bright
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I'm with Grym. I'd like to see the stat split into personality and physical attractiveness (subjective to race, of course). Honora has above average INT and WIS, and a CHA of 8. Why then do I speak up and nudge groups along sometimes and even lead once and a while? Because her CHA is solely her appearance. Honora is ugly. She collects battle scars, which criss-cross her line map lines, and has many areas of skin that are shiney-looking from recovered burns (part of her learning curve to Improved Evasion ;). She is tall and gangly with short bristly hair. She's someone you'd look at and go, Whoa...ugly. Not to mention the yellow orc fangs and thick yellow toe-and-fingernails.
Uggggggly.
If the stat were split, her physical would drop and her personality would go way up, because I simply cannot play an ugly personality. I'm just too girly :). But the game mechanics do not allow for that, so I muddle along and try to let people know how ugly she is if they ask.
My 2gp....many ways to play CHA.
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I have an idea .. look up the word charisma in the dictionary......
A person with high charisma is a charming charasmatic person.
I don't know what else to say.
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"A person with high charisma is a charming charasmatic[sic] person." That's a pretty poor definition, given that you use the term you're defining in the defintion.
Charisma is a combination of physical attractiveness, force of personality, and force of will. A green dragon may not be beautiful, per se, but it has a high charisma because ANYONE is inclined to do what it says. Force of personality mixed with a healthy dose of Intimidation. Henry the Fifth, of Shakespearean fame, was charismatic - "Once more into the breach!"
As for a comment above (don't quite remember who at the moment.. let's see.. ah, Schmack) about female dwarves - they may have beards, but that's based on a purely human standard of beauty - and a human standard of beauty wherein Tolkein-esque "dwarves" don't exist. Other dwarves may find them devastatingly beautiful, and there surely are members of other races whose tastes veer from normal and would likewise find them beautiful. Charisma may not be solely based on physical attractiveness, but you cannot make attractiveness judgements based on a human viewpoint and assume them as true for all races. Fantasy this may be, but it's very racial-centric nonetheless.
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Varka - 4/29/2006 12:06 AM
Example. A stranger walks into a local bar
cha 6 - You notice the stranger and he/she gives you a bad feeling in the guts -
cha 10 - you dont even notice the stranger - just a normall feller/fellar
cha 14 - You notice him/her and the stranger looks trustworthy
cha 18 - no idea...........
I play two characters that may illuminate some more issues on this debate.
One is a priest of Aeridin with average charisma.
The other is a swashbuckling pirate with above average charisma.
I have noticed that through roleplay, most people are more likely to trust the priest then the pirate. Simply based on how they are dressed. Almost everyone trusts a priest of Aeridin. But a charming flamboyantly dressed pirate captain gets little trust or respect. Even if the other PCs are amused by the pirates stories and charm, they don't trust him.
As a side note I have found that the more often your PC makes persuade checks. That is to get other PCs to trust the character, the more likely the other PC will NOT trust the character, even if they fail their will check. I expect this is a reaction from the player not the character that is trying to be influnced. The player is worried that their character is about to be hoodwinked. Whereas the character would not notice if they failed their will check.
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Ah, metagaming at its worst, Stragen.
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Not precisely "at its worst", and, I think, unavoidable. Immersive playing is all well and good, but if it's for something non-trivial (like a barter deal, say), a player is unlikely to want to RP well enough that they come out with the short end of the stick, even if their INT and WIS scores say they ought to. Kudos to anyone who does, but it's not something most people will voluntarily do.
(In addition, people have no CHA check to base their trust on initially, so the fact that they trust Jin more initially based on the way he's dressed is because stat scores aren't broadcast, so they have no alternative method of judgement. (unless you've entered your CD information into LORE)).
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For me, CHA score doesn't involve physical attractiveness. My character Myrrha De'loran (some of you may have spotted her wandering around in Hlint) is a sorcerer, with 18 CHA - and she is half-blind. You'd see it in her biography. In RPing, I equate CHA with 'interesting' or 'provoking interest' in other people. In other words, not boring. I make an effort to have lively conversations (not sure if it's working, or I'm babblng though!), interact with others on a very social basis, mingle a lot, provide intelligent opinions, etc etc. Of course, blindness is a good conversation factor... I hope I don't overdo it though.
I don't think CHA should be used to measure attractiveness alone, otherwise all of us sorcerers with physical deformities would be out of our jobs. :D
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I actually don't think it is poor role-playing that other characters trust the Priest more then the Pirate. Based on context a character may appear a lot more trustworthy then their charisma score, mechanically this could be through of a bonus to their charisma check to determine the reaction to a person. For example if you needed to ask for directions, most people would trust the directions given by the police officer standing on the corner. But the same burly man in civilians clothing standing on the street corner you might consider a thug or conman and wouldn't consider approaching. The charisma score of the person is the same, but they would have an appropriate modifier based on their appearance, and the context of their environment.
So charisma by itself isn't a good indicator of how trustworthy a person seems. A further example would be the case of the used car sales person.
I would argue that charisma, at least in game terms, is a combination of attractiveness (physical and other) and force of personality. It can be measured by how persuasive the person is as a speaker, and how desirable they appear to be as a friend. That is one measure is how often other characters will be persuaded by the speaker’s words. And another measure is the number and speed by which they make new friends.
Thus to play a character with high charisma they should appear persuasive, friendly, and/or desirable. Characters with very high charisma scores are likely to be both Attractive and have Forceful Personalities. Though it is possible to have all a characters charisma reflected in a single aspect of either Appearance or Personality. Two highly charismatic examples of this nature are 1) the supermodel who can barely string a conversation together, and 2) the short balding politician with funny eyebrows, who still manages to be ahead in the polls (eg the current Prime Minister of Australia http://www.pm.gov.au/ ).
A secondary result of this is that high charisma characters, Paladins, Sorcerers and Bards are likely to be the object of most other characters affections; so players with Paladin’s, Sorcerers and Bards should be ready to receive a lot of attention from other characters, some of whom may be less then desirable themselves. Furthermore if the high charisma score is refected in personality and not in the appearance of the character, then they should relish this extra attention and social interaction. That is ugly paladins with high charisma should NOT be anti-social loners.
With regard to the use of persuade checks resulting in an apparent reaction by the player. I think this is an instinctive reaction by the player to protect their character. And I don’t mind so called ‘meta-gaming’ with certain limits. Indeed this game would be unplayable and not-fun without some meta-gaming. Indeed truly ‘hard-core’ players can annoy me just as much as meta-gamers. As long as players try to enact their characters role and have fun the game is enjoyable.
I think part of the problem itself is the use of, ability checks, in this case persuade checks. If I am able to win other character’s trust through an appropriate selection of words, then I would not need to resort to the *persuade check* to roleplay the pirates Persuasive Personality. This is what I have observed in game, and what I have been trying to do. The *persuade check* itself breaks the immersion in the game. However I am still going to use it, just limit the use, to reduce loss of immersion in the world.
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That's a pretty good post, nicely done. This thread has been going on so long (eight months), with so much repetition, that I hope this one can be seen as a thought-out post that covers most aspects of the ability and not another step in a long debate... There is only so many ways you can say the same thing, after all. :P
As far as persuade checks go...if you want something from my character, feel free to roll, but start persuading to back up the numbers. It's a social skill that requires social interaction. If you roll high but say, "I would like your shoes. Now. Because I like them and my nose is green." ...that isn't really going to get you anywhere unless she happens to have a thing for green noses. Numbers get you breaks, but you've still got to sell. :)
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@Amberyl Ravenclaw - As established earlier in the thread, physical attractiveness is only a component of CHA - however, "provoking interest" does not really qualify as a CHA reaction. Someone could be appallingly ugly with some sort of physical deformation that provoked a sort of horrified fascination from anyone they talked to.. but would not persuade them to follow with what the peron was saying. As stragen so aptly put it, if they're not physically attractive, they have to get by on force of personality. I would disagree that they need be friendly, however. One thing to consider is that Intimidate is a Charisma-based skill. Case in point: a red dragon.
Red dragons (think of Smaug) can be beautiful. But this alone does not account for the 25-30 CHA an Ancient Red Dragon has. The fact that they have dozens of centuries worth of experience, have a voice so commanding that you find yourself doing what they say before your brain is truly in gear, and (not least) the fact that they could incinerate you, destroy you with spells, or simply squash you flat - these contribute hugely to their Charisma. Add to that the fact that most Ancient Dragons are fantastically well-spoken (after all, when you've got an INT of 25, too, just eating your enemies is so boring), and there you have the explanation for the astonishing CHA dragons display.
Similarly, think of Gandalf, who (since he doesn't seem to use a spellbook often) must have levels in Sorceror. Think, particularly, of when he persuaded Bilbo to leave the Ring behind. Normally a fairly laid-back individual, he calls upon all of his considerable personal prescence and reputation, and you get The Wrath of Gandalf. He doesn't physically threaten Bilbo, or threaten him (explicitly) with magic.. he just allows all of that to be implied in the force of his voice, his presence.
Historically, we have such characters as Henry the Fifth ("Once more into the breach!"), Winston Churchill ("We will fight them on the beaches..."), and Hitler (don't know any direct quotations) as examples of leaders who were not what one would call terribly physically attractive - but who all could persuade men to fight for a cause through force of personality and use of clever rhetoric. Conversely, we have Helen of Troy as the Face that Launched a Thousand Ships - though there were probably underlying political issues, as well.
As an addendum, I would say that anyone who uses L337 in their RPing should get an automatic -8 to all RP CHA checks. *grins*
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darkstorme - 6/16/2006 12:18 PM
As an addendum, I would say that anyone who uses L337 in their RPing should get an automatic -8 to all RP CHA checks. *grins*
Agreed. And a -8 to all stats. And lose 10k XP. And be banned from the server after the third time.
And be eaten by mephits.
Who would then be brutally slaughtered by a Pit Fiend.
Who would later be destroyed by a flask-of-limitless-gunpowder enema.
Yeah.
Though I'd have to say that Gandalf was mainly a sorcerer, who multiclassed with fighter and Loremaster. Think of the longsword! And the poor Will Save!
Excellent examples, though, Storm, as usual.
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How about people whose speech consists completely of small letters? Even when capitals are needed? :D
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locked in a box with leperous hobbits
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lonnarin - 6/16/2006 10:03 PM locked in a brothel for lecherous hobgoblins
Fixed. You had the first letters right, but your spelling on the rest had something to be desired.
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Sure this is more then beating a dead horse... but I've always loved doing that. I've actually read up a good deal on charisma, I'm not going to do all the articles justice nor am I going to bother looking them up, but....
Standard Depiction people take:
- Ability to interact
- Physical Attractiveness
- Verbal Attractiveness
- Ability to lead
- Calm demeanor
- Conversational saavy
- etc
The less standard depiction I like seeing is:
Social confidence. The lower the charisma, the less likely the character is to trust others or let them in. They may be a chronic leader who will never let anyone else take charge. So the inability to lay trust and have social confidence has little to do with their actions trying to persuade, lead, or interact. They simply don't have much confidence in dealing with others. That said, overcompensation can occur while retaining the lack of confidence... which really just reverses the roleplay for the character until someone actually gets 'let in'.
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Actually, the social competence (not neccesarily confidence) thing holds true for my two low-CHA characters. They usually end up taking the lead, simply because they have the ability and sense of purpose required for the job, while everyone else is busy getting each other killed.
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The non-physical abilities are usually tricky to roleplay so just avoid min/maxing and put 10 (or more) points in int/wis/cha and you'll be fine. "8 charisma or 10 charisma" might feel like a small difference on the paper, but in reality (erh.. game reality, that is!) it's much, much bigger. 10 is "average Joe" (as you probably know) while 8 puts you to the same level as "Gnoll, Dire Boar, Manticore, Gorgon". And 6 charisma... Heeeh! Either others would be running from your mere presence (because of your unearthy ugliness or rudeness) or you would be running from them (your "negative" confidence). :P
Taken from the D&D 3.5 handbook:
"Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting."
So, that people trust the CHA 10 cleric but not the CHA 18 pirate is completely valid.
As others already have noted... Everything that's worth to say has most probably already been said. :)
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'o course, the other thing to consider about the "leader who lets no one in", is that with a low CHA, they don't have much by way of personal magnetism, nor the ability to inspire confidence in others. So lead they might, but they won't be a strong leader. What a leader like that needs, generally, is a mouthpiece. The master tactician, a small, quiet individual of mousey demeanour, can be trusted utterly by the strong, charismatic king/general/warleader, who takes the tactician's advice and gives it power.
That is to say, while a low-charisma leader might know the thing to do, he'd be hard-pressed to convince others of the fact until repeatedly proven right, in which case others can get over their misconceptions and listen regardless of what the individual looks/sounds/acts like. This, unfortunately, is somewhat more difficult to RP properly where dialogue is constrained by WPM typing speed. What's really required is a streaming voice modulator paired with a VoIP client. THAT would be interesting.
Sadly, I've yet to find anything reasonably priced (read: free) that does the former, and allows you to feed that through to the latter. But RP opportunities where you aren't constrained by your typing speed would be more immersive.. and require a great deal more acting skill, most likely. Also, if you're a naturally charismatic person, playing low CHA would be harder... and vice versa. Still, it's something for the more technically-minded forum members to think about. I'd be willing to put in some time on the modulator bit. *grins*
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Ok. correct me if I'm getting this wrong. As Weeblie here just stated and what seems to be the common thoughts about Cha. Is that 10 is an average Joe. And here I totaly agree. But then one point or two points less make you to an "Gnoll, Dire boar, Manticore" etc... But why is two points less then average such a huge different. when two steps up is almost nothing? For as I see it Cha 12 isn't that big of a difference from a cha 10.
I have never played D&D so i don't know how this work. but it sounds a bit strange to me. Either Average Joe should be 12 or 14 Cha if 8 is an Boar. Or if average Joe is 10 and 8 is an Boar.. shouldn't then Cha 12 or more be extremly charismatic, beautiful, thrustworthy and so on?
When I created My latest Character ( Cha. 8 ) I thought of him like a simple man that talk a simple language. He isn't pretty ( balled, tatoos and alot of scars from battles) and he has an rather raw sence of humer that maybe others can think of being rude ore even offencive.. but thats just his way.. However i don't see him as an Boar.. and if i'm infact have created an boar.. that was not my intention when I created him.. Anyway. I'm not going to change the way i play him. But If I would have known that 8 is an extreemly!!! low cha I would probably made him an average joe.. *shrugs*
So to sum up what i'm trying to ask here. Is two points below avarage such a HUGE! difference?
I wan'ted to make Boon below average in Cha.. But i didn't wan'ted him to be compared with an Boar :p
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A CHA score of 12 or 13 puts you to the "Treant, Roper, Doppelganger, Night Hag" level.
A CHA score of 14 or 15 puts you to the "Storm Giant, Barghest, Medusa" level.
The examples given aren't so much about appearance or trustworthiness. Rather about "personality/inner strength" (what usualy "counts most" in CHA scores). Treants are... well... impressive. So, I would say that the step up to 12 (Treant) is as great as the step down to 8 (Gnoll) is "un-great". :P
One single ability point differs actually a lot more than what people normally thinks... But, also remember that even though 10 is average Joe (10 to 11 is "Human" in the table), you'll probably see people ranging from 9 to 12 if you walk on the streets.
Please also note that you don't -have- to have even numbers... Below average CHA could mean 9! ;)
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And to clarify Weeblie's point (still looking to get you those knuckles, btw), when he says "walk the streets", he isn't referring to Leilon or Hlint. He's talking about the streets outside. 10 is simply unremarkable. Nothing particularly impressive one way or the other. A human with a charisma of 12 would be more persuasive than most. A human with a charisma of 18 would be devastatingly beautiful/handsome, or have personal magnetism so strong that a suggestion on their part would almost work as a suggestion, as in the spell. You have to bear in mind that a stat of > 16 is exceptional, and > 18 is astonishing. Layonara's active population consists mostly of adventurers.. who are a cut above the norm regardless, and buy/sell things for more than a village of commoners would see in a hundred years.
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*grins wide*
Hehehehe 8 is compared to boar ,gnoll,gorgon...Well Weeblie ...explain me this then *grins again ,now a bit evil*
One you know has 8 charisma ...( guessed who yet ?)...and your char and most others... like him....they come to him for comfort and advice...
His friends try to get him in a leading roll as much as possible ....those that dont like him cant find anything to throw at him...
In my humble opponion,charisma is played out regardless the score you put there ...meaning that people ( or characters in this case)
react more to how the char presents him/herself and is open and friendly ,rather then the sight they see...
From the tales of him you will understand that he had and has loves and friends that will or would die for him without a thought .
The same attitude he himself caries out and proves in dire times .He told all that want to know how he looks ( even in tells i state that he has a charisma of 8 )
still it is one of the most liked characters in my playing timezone i think simply because i play him as the humble,open and friendly and polite not too bright simple man with a hart of gold .
The point for me is simple ...You get treated as you treat others,that goes ic and ooc *smiles*i rather have an ugly friend that is honest then a beautifull one that cheats...
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Yes, but this is a thread about how to -play- charisma; how can we talk about how people react to it, when often they don't even know it? I could attempt to completely take the foundation out from everything said in this thread by going, "I created a half giant with 6 charisma and he is the valiant leader in every group I've ever been in; people respect and admire him and he's the most handsome among them as well." And that wouldn't work too well.
The point was not "see, they do it anyway." That people respond to how a character is played is essentially the reason for the question, "How do I play this stat?"
Editing to clarify as it's not really understandable--
I wasn't implying that Barion for instance, was the half giant above--that was an extreme example used to show that in this case, the number is just a number even if everyone knows what it is. As stated many times in this thread, even if he was pretty ugly, the attitude and personal strength of the person doesn't really allow for said number.
However, having a low one doesn't really mean that the character will be widely hated, nor does it mean they won't have friends. And when one has friends, one goes to them for help and advice; it is rarely about numbers in such a situation. :)
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Och. Really, CHA is NOT about a person's actual personality... It's thier FORCE of personality. IRL, I have a CHA of 12. That's due entirely to my force of personality; let's face it, I'm not the prettiest petunia in Paris. If I ever managed to lose this -2 penalty to CHA (translation: fat), then I'd probably be able to get a lot more attention. However, here's the thing.
You can have a low-CHA person who is still the source of advice, comfort, and leadership for everyone around him. This person is called a Monk. When you have a Monk in-party (well, human, half-elven, and elven monks, at least) that Monk is going to gravitate towards the leadership role, unless there's someone with a higher CHA than his/her WIS. Why? The Monk is insightful, and often enough can act as if he/she had a MUCH higher CHA score than he/she does. That WIS bonus comes in handy, just like an INT bonus does for the occasional Wizard. Gandalf, anyone? Prestidigitation can add a mighty bonus to Persuade, if used properly.
Charisma isn't the only stat that affects how people (and characters) interact. WIS and INT are just as important, in thier own ways. Acacea would never lead a party, for example; she's too whimsical and has a VERY low WIS. Pyyran is willing to take lesser leadership roles, but often chooses to step down in favor of someone else, if A) he finds a more suitable role for himself or B) a better leader comes along. He's got a CHA of 14 and a WIS of 12... INT of 14, too, if you care. So he's got a reasonable strength of personality, and the friends he has are true and long-lasting. However, he knows his place in society; he's been beaten into it by monster and party member alike. He's a secondary leader. That's it. And he's comfortable with it (if not with his lack of recognition in... Well... Anything constructive he does). The reason he's not a stronger leader is because there is almost always someone with a better combined Mental bonus around. (CHA, WIS, INT) He's above-average in all of them, but... He's not phenomenal with any. It shows through in how he's played (I hope).
Also, the Mental scores have nothing to do with alignment. Your ugly friend, Jan, could just as easily be a cheater.
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Acacea - 6/26/2006 5:32 PM
Yes, but this is a thread about how to -play- charisma; how can we talk about how people react to it, when often they don't even know it? I could attempt to completely take the foundation out from everything said in this thread by going, "I created a half giant with 6 charisma and he is the valiant leader in every group I've ever been in; people respect and admire him and he's the most handsome among them as well." And that wouldn't work too well.
The point was not "see, they do it anyway." That people respond to how a character is played is essentially the reason for the question, "How do I play this stat?"
For me charisma isnt a "stand alone "stat and therefore i dont play it as strickt as it could be played.
Rather i play my characters charisma as a combination of all his stats and try to show a rounded person that way.
For me that means playing his charisma as a combination of mostly his charisma,wisdom and intelligence stats combined.
That way i try to give an overall look at him as he would react to things around him and situations that he gets in.
He does get intimidated by those beautifull persons that are around,but at the same time his intelligence and wisdom help him to evaluate their words and actions.
I'm not to say its the right way to play it but in my oppinion it gives a realistic view on a character .
//Sorry acacea ...didnt mean to polute the thread :( but couldnt resist the opportunity to tell how i view my char :D
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I edited my post because I didn't really think it came off right, and your response showed that it wasn't how I intended it, hehe.
I would agree on the not being a standalone stat; the more mental stats influence each other to some degree, in my opinion.
Such as a powerful, brilliant wizard, who also has at least a decent charisma, projecting the confidence in his studies and the brilliance of his mind. His power. Handsome or ugly is not really even in the equation for this example, it has no real bearing at all. You don't even need to get into how "likeable" his personality is. In this case it is more how well personal attributes (likely determined by the -other- stats) are projected outside himself.
Honestly not sure if I'm making any sense here, feel like I just woke up. Anyway. :P
Edit again-- Hah, didn't even see Pyyran posting as I did; pretty much that, yes. Assigning a number doesn't assign you a personality. ;)
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I have reading problems at this hour of the morning so I feel like I have to read everything five times to get them to sink in.
Such as in this-- "Why? The Monk is insightful, and often enough can act as if he/she had a MUCH higher CHA score than he/she does."
Usually that is completely the other way around... a high CHA person appearing much more wise or intelligent than they really are. If a person IS either of those, how well that is projected is determined by their charisma. I would say that if a plan is so brilliant and self evident, then one wouldn't particularly need to do much persuading... As in, the wisdom of the plan speaks for itself.
Basically charisma seems like the one score you can't fake, because charisma is the stat you use to fake other stats. Heh.
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To play the Pit Fiend's advocate in this case, making a choice for the number that's next to CHA is a part of deciding what your character's personality will be like. A lower CHA can only partly be explained away by physical appearance/smell - part of it is also an inherent lack of charm. So while a low CHA character might have a number of people who trust them, respect them, and would endanger themselves to protect them, this would only occur after these characters had stuck around the character long enough to learn his/her other virtues.
A low-CHA character is not going to stand up and say "Follow me, friends! We fight for glory and honour today!". Low CHA might manifest as crippling shyness.. or an ascerbic personality... or simple rudeness and general dishevelledness. Nor will they actively seek out a leadership role unless they know it to be an absolute necessity. (And here, a high INT or WIS could take the place of CHA, since it would be that kind of individual who would know when to bite down and take the lead, despite their aversion towards the position.)
Kell's CHA (with the Tiefling penalty) is a 10. He's average. Therefore, I take pains to ensure that despite his deliberate good intentions and grace of speech (mother was a bard, INT 18), he's thoughtless and rude sometimes. CHA isn't magical, it can't automatically open doors for you, it has to be RPed properly.. but simultaneously, RP cannot be allowed to overcome stats, or it's YOU that you're playing, not your character. Great RP would be to convincingly portray a loser/loner/misfit/etc. who is wise and/or intelligent beyond his appearance, and in time of need, manages to rally enough interpersonal courage to try to assume command - and even then, it shouldn't be a sure thing.
A good RP combination, in fact, would be a high-CHA bard or paladin, teamed with a low-CHA high INT/WIS monk, cleric, or mage (or rogue, for the bard. Paladins would probably look at rogues a bit more skeptically, scout or not.) The high-CHA individual could lead... under the careful advisement of the other.
Edit to pertain to Acacea's comment
"..charisma is the stat you use to fake other stats." - very true.. it is much harder for high INT or WIS to simulate a charming personality.
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Also, let's remember the saying, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." I'm not simply talking about physical beauty here either but personality as well. An elf could have a beautiful face, lithe body, angelic voice and a personality that would repair that glass mirror shattered by the "fat lady's" voice, but to a dwarf, would she really look that good? No beard, no meat and no gruff dwarven personality. Heck, it might turn out that the elf would be considered hideous to certain dwarves.
In my opinion, Charisma should NOT be used to determine how people look; that's just silly. Rather, I like the way Acacea and Stephen explained it, Charisma is an ability that allows you to fake other abilities, it is the force of personality or lack thereof and it is how to present yourself to others/how they percieve you. Look at Syn, he's a regular grump. Seriously, I've never seen him smile... ever. Never laugh, never chuckle, never smirk never tell a joke and his sarcastic comments aren't really "funny" more mean in a brutally honest way. Almost no one knows what he looks like because he's always hooded/helmed. So why does he always lead? Beacuse that's where all of his Charisma goes, leadership. He talks like a leader, acts, walks, orders, plans, fights like a leader! His entire demeanor commands respect and people respond to it... Charisma...
ZV-
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Ah, but we have precedent to cite here: look at Gimli's reaction to Lady Galadriel. Clearly, dwarven standards of beauty are not all that different from human or elven - they're just USED to dwarven appearances. An elf might be an object of distaste for a dwarf, but not from the point of view of beauty - and force of personality transcends species barrier. Just because someone isn't gruff doesn't mean they can't convey the iron-hard force of command behind their voice... and regardless of species, that can be understood. Now, granted, SOME dwarves might view elves as hideous.. but some dwarves might view other dwarves as hideous, and aspire to a "higher standard" of beauty set by humans and elves. And I would say that would be a racial CHA modifier imposed in a specific character-to-character interaction, not between one race and another.
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darkstorme - 6/26/2006 9:26 AM
To play the Pit Fiend's advocate in this case, making a choice for the number that's next to CHA is a part of deciding what your character's personality will be like.
Yes, the numbers do not assign you a specific personality, but you do choose the numbers to reflect what that personality is.
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"overcompensation can occur while retaining the lack of confidence... " Blast, Methinks they art on to us, eh Daniel? ;p