The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chrys Ellis on November 16, 2005, 06:09:00 PM
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I was just in the rift with a small party that fell prey to the implosion spell. The battle had just begun, and the drow priestess cast it on a fellow party member. We were all protected with deathwards, but apparently that spell doesn't protect from implosion and some other spells, like destruction. The other party member (Seteece) targeted by the spell died instantly when he failed his fortitude save, and received a Death Token, his 9th.
I'm not here to dispute the DT, per se. The reason for this post is that I would like to discuss spells such as implosion, that have no counter spell to protect against them. The only protection is a high fortitude, and a good roll in this case. Honestly, though, just about any PC on here would have died if they rolled a 1 against that spell, as far as I know (Fortitude save vs. DC 29).
In a game system where death has significant consequences, specifically the Death Token system, aren't spells like this, well....overkill? We began discussing this with the GM who was involved in the incident, and the counter argument seemed to be that deathward is too powerful for a 4th lvl spell, since it protects against 9th lvl spells. There are many layers to that argument, so I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with it. However, if it has been decided that Deathward should not protect against spells like this, then how about creating a higher circle spell that will? My main contention is that an 'insta-death' spell which gives you a chance at a death token, moving your character closer to perma-death, should never hinge on a single dice roll as your only defense. There should be SOMETHING you can do beforehand to prevent it.
A major reason I love this game so much is because with proper planning, a strong enough party can overcome just about anything, if they use their heads and work together. Plenty of enemies and situations which would lead to certain death under most circumstances can be prepared for. Spells like this make that moot, and it becomes nothing more than dice rolling; in other words, blind luck.
Perhaps I'm over-reacting, or missing something here. I'll leave it at this for now, and let the community respond before I say more.
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I think shadow shield protects from it, by virtue of "immunity: necromancy" but thats a caster only spell.
Another way to protect youself from this spell, is to counterspell it.
Another way (though this is the cop out response) is to kill the priest before they cast it ;)
-TV
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Spell Resistance
Fortitude Items
Saves vs. Death Jewelry
Know your enemy, take them down right away
This spell really is no different from the Beholder Death Ray.
And it's not a single dice roll. He missed on the Implosion and missed on the Soul Save. Did he miss the Initiative Roll? Did he miss the damage to break the Priestess' concentration? Did he miss the spell resistance roll if he had it?
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Talan Va'lash - 11/16/2005 9:22 PM
I think shadow shield protects from it, by virtue of "immunity: necromancy" but thats a caster only spell.
Another way to protect youself from this spell, is to counterspell it.
Another way (though this is the cop out response) is to kill the priest before they cast it ;)
-TV
Actually Talan, Implosion is considered an evocation spell.
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[orange]I can name about a dozen characters who can make a DC 29 fortitude save. I can name about a dozen characters that can make and have made this save on a 32 DC. Planning and analyzing is a big part of this game, but to say that dice rolling and luck do not belong here seems a bit too far out to reach. Sometimes you simply get a bad roll, it happens. Deathward is too good of a spell as it is and I'm very glad we have worked with our higher level death spells to have different effects around this 4 level spell. Even more so I'm really glad that a 9th level spell isn't countered by silly four level spells. Like Orth said, plenty of ways to work around this spell, but at the end of the day you have to realize that part of this game is luck and how the dice roll, otherwise it would be a strategy game, which it isn't.
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orth - 11/16/2005 3:23 PM
Saves vs. Death Jewelry
Does this help in this case? Im always confused about save vs. death bonuses....when do they apply? My first thought was that they only applied for death spells...Do they help save vs soulmother? ;)
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Well... that makes sense I think. More than PWK being divination... hehe.
implosion also has tradeoffs to other mass insta-death spells like.. say, weird. Implosion has a much smaller radius of effect in exchange for having no obvious 100% ward. There's also protection from spells (which I'm not sure i've ever seen cast... its in the game right?)
Also spell mantle, and greater spell mantle will foil an implosion (though those are caster only as well i believe.)
dadunmir - 11/16/2005 7:28 PM
Talan Va'lash - 11/16/2005 9:22 PM
I think shadow shield protects from it, by virtue of "immunity: necromancy" but thats a caster only spell.
Another way to protect youself from this spell, is to counterspell it.
Another way (though this is the cop out response) is to kill the priest before they cast it ;)
-TV
Actually Talan, Implosion is considered an evocation spell.
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They help vs any of these:
Circle of Death
Finger of Death
Skald Wail
Implosion
Wail of Banshee
Prismatic Death Spray
Weird
Slay Living
Aura of Unearthly Visage
Howl of Death
Gaze of Evil
Death Pulse
Cloudkill
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Heh...it does makes sense. Though, at first, I thought it was a necromancy school spell as many others do I'm sure.
Can anyone explain why the DC for the save is set the way it is on this spell. I was scrolling through the NWN script for it and there appears to be a +3 added to the DC. Is it a balancing thing? Did we keep that here in Layonara as well?
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dadunmir - 11/16/2005 10:00 PM
Heh...it does makes sense. Though, at first, I thought it was a necromancy school spell as many others do I'm sure.
Can anyone explain why the DC for the save is set the way it is on this spell. I was scrolling through the NWN script for it and there appears to be a +3 added to the DC. Is it a balancing thing? Did we keep that here in Layonara as well?
That is the default, and it's standard PnP due to it's small radius if I recall correctly. And yes that is how it is on Layo
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orth - 11/16/2005 3:57 PM
They help vs any of these:
Circle of Death
Finger of Death
Skald Wail
Implosion
Wail of Banshee
Prismatic Death Spray
Weird
Slay Living
Aura of Unearthly Visage
Howl of Death
Gaze of Evil
Death Pulse
Cloudkill
And Destruction, right?
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No, no Destruction, the Bioware default script that we use, it's not a vs. Death save.
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Strange that it helps vs implosion then. Maybe a glitch from the last bioware patch?
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Pan, I often agree with you, but in this one thing I disagree: This > is < a strategy game. To me at least. Life is a game of strategy, and in that which mimics life, the same holds true. Part of strategy is dealing with the issue of luck. How far can I push it until my luck runs out? Or do I want to push it? All part of the strategy. In the case of implosion, if my character knows Death ward doesn't protect against it, he will devise a different way to get around it (namely, one of the options orth mentioned). A new strategy.
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[orange] I was using the strategy term more in the likes of an established RTS. Where numbers arent rolled, they are added and subtracted. I consider what you said, thoughtful planning, might be just semantics though.
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*Varka looks at Skarp* Kill that bloody mage lad!!! Oi take the rest...ATTACK!
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If Deathward is considered to puny to stop these instant death spells perhaps a 7th/8th level spell could be added that gave imunity to instant death effects - soulshield or something similar in term - it would basically be an upgraded deathward.
Since protective wards have to be prepared in advance this would still be a very significant trade off - giving up a spell on the chance you may encounter something like this.
Varka - 11/17/2005 7:07 AM
*Varka looks at Skarp* Kill that bloody mage lad!!! Oi take the rest...ATTACK!
*grins* never trust fighter on this - Skarp take out the cleric!
*winks*
:)
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[orange] More immunities wont be added to any class. At some point chance needs to take over otherwise this just becomes a game of "bring the cleric". No go on higher level deathwards.
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Yeah, gets annoying that Death Ward is a level 4 spell. Means that clerics can memorize half a dozen and never fear Finger of death (level 7) and Wail of the Banshee (level 9). Seriously that's messed up.
Implosion is one of those spells that is (A) Hard to get (B) Very powerful against ONE character (C) Errm... only works against one character. It's like a finger of death that can't be protected against.... only shame is that clerics get it and now that it's single target I doubt they'll ever use it....
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It was changed to single target only? That's a shame indeed, but i guess it was necessary...
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medium area of effect effectively is single target unless the creatures are very close together
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@Decius: I could have sworn it was changed to single target. Thought I read it somewhere but I don't know if it ever got signed off and went into affect. *shrugs*
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It is not single target. There has been talk of adapting it more towards the DnD version where the caster picks his targets, but that is hard with the current nwn mechanics.
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ZeroVega - 11/17/2005 8:13 AM
Yeah, gets annoying that Death Ward is a level 4 spell. Means that clerics can memorize half a dozen and never fear Finger of death (level 7) and Wail of the Banshee (level 9). Seriously that's messed up.
Oh come on. You're never packing a dispel or a spell breach?
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Wintersheart - 11/17/2005 10:58 AM
Varka - 11/17/2005 7:07 AM
*Varka looks at Skarp* Kill that bloody mage lad!!! Oi take the rest...ATTACK!
*grins* never trust fighter on this - Skarp take out the cleric!
*winks*
:)
*Skarp looks around*
Damn it which is which
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Are the mechanics of the game such that Undeath Eternal Foe really on works vs undead or does it provide protection against death magic and neg energy drains in general?
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*wakes up and reads all the responses since last night*
My, goodness. Lots of replies already. Ok, time for some clarification on a couple of things.
First, Pan said he knows half a dozen characters who can make the fortitude save against a DC 32. I'm not sure if he means this to address the same question I had about the save. I was commenting that I don't know anyone who, should they roll a 1 for their Fort save, would survive that spell. Either Pan misunderstood me, or I misunderstood him. In the latter case, that would mean he knows half a dozen characters with a 31 Fort, right? Or am I missing something in that?
Second, regarding this being a single target only, I think I can confirm that is not the case here. Xiao resisted a spell right at the same moment Seteece was killed, according to the battle text, and they were, in fact, standing pretty close to one another. Unless the giant managed to cast something on me, I think it's safe to say Xiao was resisting the implosion.
Third, isn't it already a game of "bring the cleric" to certain areas? If death magic is involved, fighters will need deathwards. There are already areas groups won't go without a cleric, because death magic leaves it too much to chance. Or they could use items like Orth described to Save vs. Death but, how do you get Save vs. Death Items? Are they craftable? I've certainly never heard of anyone selling such an item. Can they be found on drops? Just curious.
Fourth, to clarify about knowing your enemy and taking them out first, I should note that the priestess was GM controlled. I don't know if she was invisible or not, but I didn't see her until she had cast the implosion. For those familiar with the rift, this all occurred at the spot just before going down that first ramp, across the ravine from the group of drow where there used to be diamond veins. The only evidence of her was a summoned dire tiger down below, which I assume she cast from across the ravine. I'm only pointing this out to note that the group didn't rush in blindly and fail to take out the priestess first. She came to us. I've only ever seen her rush opponents when a GM is controlling her. I'm not saying the GM didn't have the right to do it, just that I didn't see her approach. We were well prepared, but not for the priestess rushing us and starting off with the implosion spell.
Finally, regarding this being a strategy game vs. luck, I agree that this is a game, and luck should be a factor, but within reason. I also feel that if the party knows what they are facing, there should always be a way to prepare for it. Now, I didn't realize that implosion wasn't treated as Death Magic, so in this case, I didn't know my enemy as well as I could have, nor did Seteece. If we did know, we could have increased his chances of survival, but not ensured it, unless we had death jewelry for him (which I would definitely like to know more about). I don't know what lvl the priestess is, but I assume the SR needs to be pretty high, and she needs to roll relatively low against it in order to resist. Same with fortitude. To have a fortitude of 28 is not something most characters can attain, even with jewelry.
I'm not saying there should not be instances where you simply have to make some saves against a spell, or suffer the consequences. 'Harm' is an example. That spell can dish out around 100 damage, but most characters facing enemies with this spell could survive that if they were at full health. At that point, they have a choice whether to continue fighting or try to withdraw to heal up. I am just opposed to a completely healthy fighter type being taken out by a single spell, even if there is more than one roll to save against it. Say spell resistance and fortitude, for example. The cost of death is too high in this world for it to ever be left strictly to chance, in my opinion.
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Feldspar set in a copper ring gives you save vs death. An exceptional one, along with protection from spells provides a good bonus to your save.
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"...Second, regarding this being a single target only, I think I can confirm that is not the case here. Xiao resisted a spell right at the same moment Seteece was killed, according to the battle text, and they were, in fact, standing pretty close to one another. Unless the giant managed to cast something on me, I think it's safe to say Xiao was resisting the implosion..."
Heh, im afraid that spell you resisted was my confusion spell which i got off right after i got the priestess down. And the spell IS AoE, no reason to discuss that further :).
"...I don't know if she was invisible or not, but I didn't see her until she had cast the implosion..."
She might have cast sanctuary actually, but i saw her all the way, and was casting a Forcefull hand at her...she just beat my initiative and managed to get the implosion off right before she was knocked down.
"...Or they could use items like Orth described to Save vs. Death but, how do you get Save vs. Death Items? Are they craftable? I've certainly never heard of anyone selling such an item. Can they be found on drops? Just curious...."
They are craftable, and I think Set has some.
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To clarify the single-target aspect of the spell. I've cast implosion on groups of ogres slaying nearly 4 at a time. It's not single target. I've also in doing the such caught myself and died. I'm considering posting that on the worst/funniest deaths thread. I rolled when I realized I self-imploded. That's all another story though.
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The chance/risk/luck factor should always remain, in my opinion. The challenge and thrill is lost if one can put together a party that can handle protections against any spell. As long as they have clerics have heal spells they can basically continue unchallenged. And on Layo you only face oponents that use such high level death magic in places where you know that there is a high risk of being killed. The Rift is dangerous, and it should be dangerous. I assume you go there for minerals/ore, and those are worth the risk, or no one would dare to visit that place.
Regarding the save vs. death jewelry. I assume that a +2 save vs. death ring adds 2 to a fortitude or will save vs. death by a bodak's ray or an implosion spell?
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It probably is just semantics, Pan. This game is quite a bit different from an RST, to be sure.
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[orange] I said about a dozen characters could make a DC 29 save with their eyes closed and I've seen people make higher at even 32. You are forgetting one little itsy bitsy weenie thing called, Spellcraft bonus. Which amazingly enough is added for every 5 points in it to all magical saves. That means that just about every mage out there with a decent backbone can make those saves in a jiffy, not to mention a whole bunch of other classes and people who put points in them. Its a beautiful thing. Death bonus items have been in the crafting system since V1. Finally to say that the death penalties in this world are too harsh, come on man. You were a part of this world when dying meant losing weeks and weeks of work in XP. Now all you get is a bunch of reduced stats and a chance of a death token. To be any more lenient than that is just to remove death penalties and have "infinite lives". Death penalties are far from harsh here. So what? You get stuck in one place for an hour or two meditating about what happened. What is wrong with that? Maybe it gives you time to consider your situation and why you died and plan for a better counterattack. And again, luck is not a small factor, its a factor just as important as any other. It seems to me that you are just venting cause a character has weaknesses that can be exploited. Things go like that, it happens, thats how the game is designed. Every class has moments where they roll the dice and sometimes they fall where it hurts. Mages get clobbered by a huge rock, Clerics get eaten up by some nasty earthquake reflex save, rogues get the horrible horrid wilting, and fighters get to suffer the painful Wail. Its how the game goes. As far as the spell, yes, its an AoE but its itsy bitsy tiny and it has some lag related quirkiness that depending on how you target it it sometimes only targets one and sometimes it targets an entire group. Eld uses it all the time and sometimes she takes out 4 or 5 monsters that seem to be a bit apart and sometimes she takes out only one when they are scrunched up together. Nothing wrong with this really, its just the quirkiness some spells have.
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Pankoki - 11/17/2005 8:25 AM [orange] I said about a dozen characters could make a DC 29 save with their eyes closed and I've seen people make higher at even 32.
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You said you could name a dozen characters who could make the save. I'm not sure what you mean by making it with their eyes closed, though. For me, unless I could make the save even if I rolled a 1, I wouldn't be closing my eyes. Maybe you mean their fort combined with the spellcraft bonus makes the roll trivial. Xiao can make the save, but it wouldn't be guaranteed.
[/FONT]Death bonus items have been in the crafting system since V1.
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The death bonus items I know of improve your chances against death magic, but don't protect against it the way deathwards do, am I right? [/FONT]Finally to say that the death penalties in this world are too harsh, come on man. You were a part of this world when dying meant losing weeks and weeks of work in XP. Now all you get is a bunch of reduced stats and a chance of a death token. To be any more lenient than that is just to remove death penalties and have "infinite lives". Death penalties are far from harsh here. So what? You get stuck in one place for an hour or two meditating about what happened. What is wrong with that? Maybe it gives you time to consider your situation and why you died and plan for a better counterattack. And again, luck is not a small factor, its a factor just as important as any other.
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I was referring more to the Death Token system. I have no problem with the other aspects of the death system. [/FONT]It seems to me that you are just venting cause a character has weaknesses that can be exploited. Things go like that, it happens, thats how the game is designed. Every class has moments where they roll the dice and sometimes they fall where it hurts. Mages get clobbered by a huge rock, Clerics get eaten up by some nasty earthquake reflex save, rogues get the horrible horrid wilting, and fighters get to suffer the painful Wail. Its how the game goes.
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I don't have a problem with character weaknesses, just weaknesses that can't be overcome by proper preparation, and can kill in an instant. Aside from the Wail, the examples you gave don't guarantee death, do they? Granted, a mage won't likely have enough HP to survive getting clobbered by a huge rock, but they might. The wail can be guarded against with a deathward. As fair as wilting, I can't recall if it's death magic or not.
I know we differ on this, and that's fine. I just wanted to voice my opinion, to shed some light on the topic and open it for discussion. If those running this world are still satisfied with the system in place, then so be it.
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[orange]By being prepared you can overcome all the things that have been mentioned, they are weaknesses of characters but they can all be overcome. With high enough saves (and trust me a lot of people can get high and then some) and with us disabling the fail on 1, a lot of people automatically succeed on those DCs mentioned above. Sounds to me that you just need to familiarize yourself more with the technical aspects of the game. There is a way to prevent all that has happened and has been mentioned in this thread. However those are character things that I rather not discuss, secrets of the trade or in-character knowledge, regardless of what they may be nothing "unfair" happened to the members of your party. They took their chances on something that was hard and weren't prepared properly, thus their chances of dying were high and paid for them. I think it is about time you go in-game and start asking around how are the ways to circumvent this problem instead of keep bringing it back to the forum. I heard the story from the DM that was involved and I trust him to be honest on the way things happened, so far it sounds that there was little degree of preparation and everything was taken for granted because the caster in that spawn normally has a different spell sequence.
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Just thought I'd point out that on any encounter Bil always looks for the mage first and attacks him before even considering the other attackers. Thought most other people did that too :)
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Rayenoir - 11/17/2005 10:00 AM ZeroVega - 11/17/2005 8:13 AM Yeah, gets annoying that Death Ward is a level 4 spell. Means that clerics can memorize half a dozen and never fear Finger of death (level 7) and Wail of the Banshee (level 9). Seriously that's messed up.
Oh come on. You're never packing a dispel or a spell breach?
@Rayenoir: Err... yeah I do use Spell Breach and Dispelling. Two things though. One, Spell Breach won't take off Protection from Death Magic cast by a cleric or druid. Two, I don't make it a habit to attack PC clerics. When I cast finger of death at an NPC their death magic protection is permanent (99% of the time). Perhaps I chose my words poorly but what I meant was, a cleric can cast protection from deathward and have almost no fears from NPC's death magic. (Mainly because not many NPCs cast dispells with the exception of their nifty traps) Implosion is one spell that makes a nice little exception to that.
So I think we've decided. Implosion is a nasty spell. Feldspar jewelry will increase your Save vs. Death Magic (which includes Implosion) but there is no spell or piece of equipment out there that makes you immuned to it. (Besides Spell Resistance and Spell Mantles) We've gone over the tactics that can be used to foil those who'd use the spell, and have learned the quirks of it. (Killing odd numbers when it should kill more/less) There are characters that can make the save with their eyes close and those who can't. So there we are... right?
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Chrys Ellis - 11/17/2005 11:40 AM Xiao can make the save, but it wouldn't be guaranteed.
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That begs the question...why should it be guaranteed?
To touch on something you mentioned before, it shouldn't matter that a GM contolled the NPC that cast this spell. If this were a real world, these baddies would probably not just stand in one place waiting for you to come and kill them. That you talk about having the right spells in place suggests that you are expecting the particular NPC to always be in the same place every time, when in fact, this world changes constantly, and direct GM involvement reflects that.
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There's always a way around something...
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*looks up at Synpox's statement and grins*
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Automatic failure of 1 removed and an automatic save vs a DC 29. Wow! A mod of 28! The base is a 12 at lvl 20 (for any class with a good fort save) so that's a whole lot of bonus'. Quite impressive. I can get Yash to 20 but 28 wowzers! Aside from wearing appropriate jewelry and buffing CON on everyone, I'd say we were prepared as best as possible. Though, I can't speak for everyone's spellcrafting skill. I and Set had my SR of 32. I think Xiao's is 30 as a monk. The major bummer is that Xiao resisted and Set failed. 'Tis the luck of the role in the end. Not much you can do against that other than throw your hands in the air and move on.
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I completly agree with Pan.
Thank god there are spells that can not be directly protected against. This adds some spice to the game, because currently a party that has a high level cleric and a wizard can make itself immune to anything besides direct damage and even that if they have stoneskin. These protection sometimes get so absurd that a mage seems like a kid with matches :)
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"...These protection sometimes get so absurd that a mage seems like a kid with matches..."
Isn't that the truth!
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just cast explode on someone who's about to implode... should work
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Doc-Holiday - 11/17/2005 10:44 AM
just cast explode on someone who's about to implode... should work
LOL
If we had an explode spell it would fit perfectly as a counter to implode :)
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might have a little bloating.. but... should be fine
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I pointed out that the priestess was GM controlled not as a complaint that they did anything unfair, but merely as a defense to the insinuation that we were inept because we didn't attack the priestess first. The fact is, the priestess doesn't normally run over to the area we were in, and it's dark down there. If I had seen her, rest assured I would have run past the giant Iwas tangling with to try to take her out. Unfortunately, whether she had sanctuary or I just didn't catch her in the darkness, I didn't see her until she cast implosion, at which point, of course, I ran over and took care of her.
I just want to make sure I'm being understood about this topic. I am not suggesting that every spell should have a counter spell to guarantee you're protected from it. My only contention is that any spell that kills absolutely should have something that counters it absolutely. Many people have pointed out ways to improve your odds of surviving this spell but, as far as I understand it, except for a very few epics out there, anyone else facing this spell, as prepared as they can be, is going to have to cross their fingers that they don't blow the roll and are killed instantly. Unless someone has jewelry which makes them immune to daeth magic, but I don't think that's what Orth was talking about was he? I assume he meant the jewelry that gives you a bonus to your save.
I know people differ on this, but I personally don't care for any spell that can take you out instantly like that, even if the chance is only 1 in 20. If it knocked you down to 1 HP, even from full health, at least you'd have a slim, but fighting chance. I suppose it comes down to a difference in game philosophy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I will respect the stance of the shapers of this world, even if I don't personally agree on this particular subject.
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dadunmir - 11/17/2005 11:00 AM
The major bummer is that Xiao resisted and Set failed.
Hey, I'm not sure I like the wording of that sentence. :(
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Pankoki - 11/17/2005 5:25 PM [orange] I said about a dozen characters could make a DC 29 save with their eyes closed.
I think there are even more players that have absolutely no chance of making the save. I must say that this is a though topic. Cause for a lot of players this aint a "save or die" spell it is just plainly "die", and with no wards this is a bit to much with DT's and all. however having no really powerful opponents is also a bit boring. But still all monster spellslingers have a huge advantage that players don't, they can cast some of the most powerfull spells damage vise (fireball cone of cold etc.) without harming their fellows. whereas PC wizards can hardly ever use these spells because it is simply to dangerous to party members. If a band of player ogres had a shaman that casted cone of cold like the monsters do most of the players would be in a BAD shape. How about altering the spells from save or die (-11 HP) to save or die (-1 HP or -6HP) or save get be nearly death (1d4 HP). I give these 2 possibilities because i can't see what i would prefer, in the midst of battle i think it is more likely to die to the point where you have to be raised if you have 1d4 HP. That way everybody have a chance of surviving it and avoiding to face the cursed soul mother.
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[orange]Nope, not going to happen. The people that should be facing those monsters with high DCs have the means to succeed on it. Of course most people under level 15 will fail such a thing, but they aren't the ones supposed to be facing these monsters.
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Your best protection is a real tank.
I mean... thats why Rognar, Ta'k and Ozy traveled everywhere. And did all the things they did together. And were able to.
Rognar had a huge fort save. Ta'k had the high will save.
So between the two of them, there wasn't much that we couldn't handle.
Oh, there's something that casts Implosion.
Rog, go soak that. Tell us when it's safe. Or I'd use a summon.
He'd charge, after he gets it cast on him and survives, the rest of us close into range.
Would we have been effected in the above case? Possible. if we didn't see the priest. But we would have been protected as much as possible anyway so other than Ozy, who has probably the worst fort saves in the universe... we would have been ok.
But then... that was our other secret to success. We would be prepared for the worst case all the time.
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Chrys Ellis - 11/17/2005 8:22 PM dadunmir - 11/17/2005 11:00 AM
The major bummer is that Xiao resisted and Set failed.
Hey, I'm not sure I like the wording of that sentence. :(
Right, let me rephrase that. I would of liked you both to resist the spell. Particularly with Set having a slightly higher SR, it was a bummer that you both didn't. No ill feelings intended Xiao. Again, my apologies.
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1) New update idea: make the middle bar disappear or make the text invisible.
MAKE THE “MIDDLE BAR WITH COMBAT TEXT INVISIBLE”
Why do I write this here?..because…
2) Giving ideas of what COULD be change in Layo is one thing… but driving it out till this far?
Here on Layo I am happy that things CAN be talked over and that is good. At some point though this can be too much….How much can you ask for as a Player here? Where does the line go?.Well that is up to every player to decide….but here on this tread….
3) My point: What is Roleplaying and adventure?
Adventure: Well that includes exploring and risk…RISK!..hhmm…How can there be risk if you suddenly could prevent death from everything (spells)?
Suddenly Tetris would be more “risky” to play than Layo. Where would the thrill then be?
Reading the DC rolls – What does that have to do with Role playing? Further – as I was not on that quest.. well I assume that you killed over 100 drows and here you are complaining over one death from your party?
Sorry for the use of the word "complaining" but I don’t know any other word
What will happen if you met Blood? I would assume that he just have a spell that just kills you – just like that? Will that also be a problem?
4) That’s why I got the idea of a new update: “make the text invisible”
Problem: Need of water and food and dice roll for GM’s - Maybe?
I assume there will be some folks out there that will feel personally attack and quote what ever I put and analyse every line… but I will not enter any discussion about what I wrote as english is not my primary language.
Pankoki - I am 100% behind you…
The XP system was changed (minimizing the thrill) and now this…I can only shake my head.
But hey thats my opinion ;)
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@Varka: All i see is a lot of misunderstandings and wrong assumptions. I really dont see the point of your post, and actually find it somewhat offensive.
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Varka:
From a particular perspective it is true that combat die rolls have little if anything to do with RP, but they are a very critical part of combat. If this were a PnP game, we'd all have to pay a lot of attention to what we roll, what are the DCs, etc. They're an important part of the game, and having that feedback is much, much better than not having that.
But, the case can be made for paying attention to DC rolls and RP. Here's an example:
Let's assume a PnP setting where the GM asks you to make a save vs. Will. Let's say the DC is 25 and you fail with a 24. In this case, the RP is that you tried to resist but the enemy won out, though ever so slightly. If you failed with a 10, then you were utterly weak in the face of this foe and your will was crushed like a grape. If you succeeded with a 26, then you fought this force and overcame it, though barely, and you were possibly even weakened in the attempt. If you succeeded with a 35, then you met the will of this foe head on and repelled it with ease. Your subsequent RP could, and should, indicate the results of your roll. In game mechanics, it doesn't matter whether you save by 1 or by 10 or more. A save is a save. The RP value, however is actually quite a bit more than perhaps you have considered.
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...Except that knowing the DCs of enemy attacks may take the risk/exciment out of combat, since you KNOW that there is only 5% chance of being affected. Even good roleplayers tend to metagame.
@Varka
For most parts it can't be done. Spells, custom feats and other custom effects can be altered to use custom functions for taking saving throws, skill rolls etc., but combat information per se cannot be altered or hidden.
Edit: Actually that is not true. Editing the dialog.tlk file and changing the dialog text might be a way to do it
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Varka - 11/21/2005 4:31 AM How can there be risk if you suddenly could prevent death from everything (spells)?
*sighs* I am only going to ask you to re-read the posts you thought you were commenting on. I never said I wished to prevent death from everything, just...oh, I'm not going to bother repeating it. It's there, in my previous posts, clear as can be. If you read my posts carefully, and still think I want to avoid death from everything, then PM me and I'll explain the difference between what you're saying and what I was saying.
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@Chrys
Hi, I just reread some of your posts. What I think you're trying to say, is:
You dislike that fully prepared fighters (or whatever) can go down by a single spell, even if the chance is even 1 in 20.
Correct?
If that is it, I think you to some point are right. It is somewhat unreasonable that it may be an "all or nothing" hit. I am really no big fan of instant kill spells, though the effect is quite impressive and intimidating. I agree that players are special and should be treated special. Layo handles this just fine, allowing players to respawn in return for a little fatigue and perhaps a death token.
While death spells sometimes are "all or nothing", Layonara is definitely not. When your character dies, he is not gone. He can respawn and go out adventuring again. You have your second chance. Next time, push someone a good distance ahead of you and keep a fair distance yourself not to get caught in the blast.
The death token system adds just a little more risk to adventuring, which should be fine.
A few examples and ideas that could make things a little more interesting:
1. If a spell like Implosion should be "smoothed out", it could scale from death to hitpoints damage, depending on your character's saving throw, resistance etc. This way, it would no longer be an "all or nothing"-spell, and probably even more useful to casters, heehee. A high level character might not fear death from Implosion, but rather a large hitpoints loss.
As far as I remember, Finger of Death/Slay Living already has this behavior.
2. Another alternative is to make spells like death ward protect only against the first impacting death spell. That'd perhaps make the real death spells more feared and useful from a DM perspective.
3. An example from a project of my own: A custom poison system. The effect of the poison depends on your fortitude save. If it is low enough, the poison can result in instant death. There are two saves involved: A save vs. constitution (and fortitude!) loss and a save vs. death if your fortitude save is lower than 3. Saves vs. death never occurs upon the impact hit, but rather as a result of the longterm effects of the poison so you can always drink an antidote if you have one. It takes at least 30 seconds from the impact to the longterm effects kick in.
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orth - 11/16/2005 6:57 PM They help vs any of these: Circle of Death Finger of Death Skald Wail Implosion Wail of Banshee Prismatic Death Spray Weird Slay Living Aura of Unearthly Visage Howl of Death Gaze of Evil Death Pulse Cloudkill
Ok, I'm not sure what spell the troll shaman uses in O'Taogor, but I thought it was Finger of Death. If not, is it one of the others Orth listed above?
The reason I ask is, I just died in O'Taogor from whatever spell the shaman cast, because I failed my fort save. I had a fort of 15, and was wearing jewelry that should have given me +6 to saves vs. death magic. I believe it has been stated that the bonus would be applied to whatever save had to be made, which in this case would be fortitude. If I knew this jewelry wasn't going to work, I would have worn endurance jewelry, and would have made the save.
Luckily, I didn't receive a DT from this, but I did lose 1418 gold. I'd like to know whether I misunderstood how this jewelry works, or if it didn't work as it's supposed to. Thanks.
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That Troll does not have Finger of Death as a memorized spell, it was most likely Destruction that it cast.
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So, why would Destruction not qualify as something to save vs. death against, if other 'non-death magic' spells are protected against with this jewelry, like implosion? I guess I'm not seeing where the distinction lies.
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I don't know. That's how Bioware has it.
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Maybe because you do not die directly. The crushing of internal bodyparts is what actually kills you. Te spell just creates some kind of vacuum or something. People with good constitution and fortitude might shrug it off.
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Its not always a 1 hit 1 kill spell destruction, it does so much damage, which is usually more than people or creatures have. Many things survive it though.
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Heh...didn't know that. Would be nice to see amount of damage listed, in that case, to make that more clear.
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No they are wrong Xiao. Destruction either kills you, except if you make a fort save, in which case it will damage you. The point of destruction not "killing" you, but crushing you doesnt apply either, as the death save jewelry helps against implosion, which is a similiar spell really. I think Bioware simply have forgotten to add this spell to the list, but i havent looked further into it.
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keep in mind... just becouse it is a save or die spell dosent mean its death magic. Finger of death is a fortitude save or die. Not a save vs death magic. to see the difference go into storens and let a Bodak blast you, Save vs Death magic is what you should see. Though if your hit with Finger of death you see Save vs Fortitude(or something like that). Now i dont know about some of the other spells listed, but there not all considered Death maigcs. They can kill you, buts its not "Death Magic". if you had that jewlrey on and went against a bodak you would infact get you +6 or whatever for having it all on. Hope this helps.
Actaully, nevermind... now that i think of it again i think it says something like Will save vs death so... yea disreguard this post...
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Right, what's confusing me is that deathward apparently only works against spells specifically designated as death magic, right? However, the death jewelry works against a broader range of spells, like implosion, which others have already pointed out is not considered death magic.
If Blonde is correct, which I think he is, since I've never seen a damage roll when failing the fort save against destruction, then it's basically the same thing as implosion. So, the jewelry which saves vs. death (it does not say vs. death magic) should work against destruction as well.
Is waiting for Bioware to fix the hard-coding of this spell the only way to correct this? Can't the jewelry be adjusted so it saves vs. destruction as well as death, at least as a temporary fix? I'm not a programmer, so I don't know. *looks to everyone else*
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[orange]While Blonde is correct on destruction being death type spell. The damage done by it works just quite fine. The only difference with destruction is that if you have a deathward you dont die. You make the fort save you take 10d6 points of damage divided by two. You fail, you take the full brunt. Since this spell can be stopped by a deathward and its like a 7th or 8th level spell, I really see no reason why it should be modified to work with Death save improving jewelry. It will just kill the threat of the spell, again. Can you say, old topic? Let it rest man.
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Pankoki - 12/1/2005 9:55 AM [orange]While Blonde is correct on destruction being death type spell. The damage done by it works just quite fine. The only difference with destruction is that if you have a deathward you dont die. You make the fort save you take 10d6 points of damage divided by two. You fail, you take the full brunt. Since this spell can be stopped by a deathward and its like a 7th or 8th level spell, I really see no reason why it should be modified to work with Death save improving jewelry. It will just kill the threat of the spell, again. Can you say, old topic? Let it rest man.
So, according to you, if you fail the fort save you take a full 10D6 damage? Meaning the spell should do 10-60 damage, IF you fail the fort save? Well, then, why did I die from this spell when I had over 200 HP?
This is not a rehash of the implosion discussion. This is an attempt to get clarification on how these spells work. I don't understand why deathward would work for this spell and jewelry that saves vs. death would not. It's also an attempt to better understand the system in place, so I can prepare better next time, by wearing fortitude increasing jewelry, rather than save vs. death jewelry, if that is what is required. That way, I don't have to resort to a game of 'bring the cleric' whenever I want to get sapphires.
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Ok, here is exactly how Destruction works:
-You roll a fort save
-if you make the save and have death ward you take 10d6 damage
-if you make the save and have no deathward you take 10d6 damage
-if you dont make the save and have death ward you are not affected
-if you dont make the save and have no death ward you die
Death ward only protects from the death part of the spell, that is how death ward works. It may seem odd that it is better to not make the safe if you have death ward, but that is the effect of Destruction. Call it a feature...
That is how the spell works, unless it has been altered for Layo, and i dont think it has. A bonus to fort will help you make the save. A bonus vs. death will not help you make the save. That is how Bioware made it.
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blonde - 12/1/2005 3:22 PM if you dont make the save and have no death ward you die...Death ward only protects from the death part of the spell, that is how death ward works.
Thanks for the clarification, Blonde. Based on this, I see no reason why save vs. death jewelry would not work for this aspect of the spell.