The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Leanthar on December 02, 2005, 03:20:00 PM
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Alright folks, I want your input here. We have two fantastic character submissions that would normally be denied, and truth be told I have a denial post written up. But then I got to thinking about a few things. We have a huge world here, we have a very large and dedicated team (GM and Project team)… These two team members alone have worked 1000’s of hours for the world and the community at large (in content of all fashions and GM’ing)—all for free and because they care about the world and the community. The have run literally 100’s of quests for the players and the community at large. On top of that these two individuals happen to be some of the best role-players that I have ever known and been around and I know they can handle the responsibility. Their maturity level is top notch and they know how to role-play. With all of that said and keeping in mind everything that they have done for the community should these two characters be approved? I don’t suggest they be approved for favoritism, which will never happen. What I do suggest is that we look at what these two have brought to the community in time, effort, emotions and a number of other things and reward them for doing that for us, for being there for us. Do not feel bad if you want to say no. I want your true feelings on this subject as I want this to be fair and I want the community to understand why it was approved if it is voted to be approved by you, the community.
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=20155&posts=3
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=20157&posts=3
If they are approved by you, the community, they will be restricted in the following ways:
1) They can never run a quest for each other when one of them is playing one of these characters. Strictly off limits.
2) At level one they do not have any powers or ties to powers or authority in any way what-so-ever.
3) The only way they gain anything is through RP in game—just like everybody else.
4) Perhaps (perhaps) if the character reaches epic levels then their family ties may come in to being—but not until then.
5) They are going in to this with the clear understanding that they are RP’ing their characters for their uniqueness and not for their ties or possible powers with the parents and such.
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I would usually just vote and let that be that.
I was able to read these upon submission and the concerns afterwards. Given my own work and play record in life I cannot see the okay on these characters as an issue. As many recent posts have made it perfectly clear, many things cannot come to you as a player without proving yourself to the players AND staff. They have already done this in spades before these submissions.
But I am a romantic....and a NOOB. Grains of salt for everyone!
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Considering all the effort they put around the whole Hilliaraname plot, and their huge dedication to us players, i agree that they should be approved, though under the restrictions L mentioned.
I'm no one to judge another, i'm just a player that is (still) new to RP, however this is how i see things. Give credit to those that deserve it.
I voted Yes. Keep up the great work, Stormspirit and Pankoki! :)
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With the restrictions that L has set forth and the knowing how great RP'ers Pan and Storm are there should be no reason they shouldn't be allowed. I trust that what powers they get they will earn through role play and deserve them. Also if anyone deserves these Pan and Storm do, like L said they amount of personal time they have devoted to make the sever what it is ( and that many others have) they should have the oppurtunity to play these chars.
Great post guys! Those are the best submits I have ever seen me joing this sever!! If you ever give out writing lessons please let me know.. :)
and I voted yes ( if you couldn't tell)
Tobias
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I agree with what has been said. I have no concerns that these characters won't be just as incredible as their others.
Pan and Storm are well respected in the community and are inded some of the best RPers I have seen.
With the conditions set forth by Leanthar, I say let them play!
~KK
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I am giving a tenative yes on this.
Only because I've seen the exceptional work and play that Pan has done
due to time constraints I cannot read both stories
I will, however, trust Pan's choice in friends and attribute the qualities seen in Pan to the second submittal seeing as L wouldn't post them both if it were not so well done in each case.
I belive this is a step in raising the bar for all of us and I welcome such commited biography's and well thought out characters.
I trust these characters to be the epitome of Role Play and to set an example for the rest of us.
I expect them to recieve no special treatment and to be more harshly judged when facing proof of rule breakage; we as the player community are extending a great deal of trust and faith in you two and I for one expect behavior that honors that trust.
Now... that being said...
Well done, your efforts in the past have been well recieved and your character movement to pending approval is a direct reflection of your commitment to superb RP and community efforts. Be diligent in your work and faithful in your portrail of your characters. You've raised the bar for us all, and I personal thank you.
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Har! Its 1.30am thats way too much to read rite now. ;) I just flew over it and I do need to print it to read, but you can tell the work that went into it. So I give my vote a yes. Cheers Pan and Storm.
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Pfff... those are VERY long bio's. Can't say that I've read each and every line of it, but it was still a great read. From what I know, the Hilliaraname is the "weird(est)" family in Layo and quite an important one with Meliphazei. These two chars would fit well, I think.
And given the restrictions, I don't see much that bothers me. From the whole no family ties until epic, I understand that they'd start out as your everyday ordinary adventurers. I trust Pan and Storm more than enough in RP'ing these chars properly.
A few points though.
My only concern is that I do not have as much information on the history of the Weird as Pankoki and Storm, so sometimes it's hard for me to know whether something makes sense.
For example, about these pools of the Weird, were the locations already known to the Hiliaraname family before the quest series about the Weird? I didn't participate in that series, so I know little about it. From what I can tell, the quest was about finding the pools.
I do know that the earthweird, Stone, was the first weird to be discovered by Meliphazei, or am I wrong? From that, I conclude that the earthweird could have had been discovered years before the others and that the story fits.
Another thing is the rite of affirmation that Alassë Hilliaraname went through. Wouldn't it be better to wait for it ingame and RP it out? Otherwise you might end up with very 'static' characters with very little room to develop.
So, I don't see a problem with these chars. I just hope they don't become too static in their development, a char should always have a bit of uncertainty somewhere in its development, in my opinion.
EDIT: I voted 'yes' by the way.
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A quick side note of Affirmation for mage or sorcerer.
Affirmation is not a rank or title as would be given among the clergy, it is a simple step that denotes a mage as committed to upholding the precepts of Lucinda. Lucinda supplies magic to all regardless of denomination or class and in this mages and clerics gain access to abilities while not neccesarily upholding the dictates set down by Lucindas church.
An affirmed mage differs only in that they have taken a step to dedicate personal belief to The Weave and similiar doctrines to the clergy. Priviliges of Affirmation are close to non existent as they confer no rank nor title to the bearer. Lucindite clergy will of course respond more favourably, yet that is the same as to any mage with Lucinda in the diety field. Most characters whom are applied for seem to lately accept affirmation as part of a background process, much the same as initiation and potentiate status for a cleric. Game entry is had at the minimum non learning rank among the clerical orders for those who bothered to add it to the bio, the same with mages who have applied and written in affirmation.
Special permissions are still givenby the clergy to the Affirmed and this while more likely to be granted to an Affirmed mage is by no means a certainty with the higher ranks of clergry determining it on individual merits and grounds.
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[orange]Information on the Pools, The Weird and most things related to the quest is being edited by Mister EdTheKet. I believe he will post as soon as he has time. Feel free to bug me in game if you want the history though, I rather do it in character.
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Heheh, you two even apply and reply in pairs.
Thanks Storm for the bit about the affirmation. I thought it was something requiring a CDQ. And thanks Pankoki for the quick response, I agree it's better done in character.
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Heh we are really one person you see, just one person running rapidly between two computers.
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[orange]See...
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..Running rapidly across the... pacific ocean... :P
I'm voting yes.
Also, allow me to give props to L for handling something like this in such a transparent, community-oriented manner. Bringing it to attention, clearly stating the issue at hand and listing the conditions of their possible approval, and above all giving the decision to the community.
1 vote yes for Pan and Storm's characters
1 vote yes for L's handling of the situation (and by this, I mean a yes in the style of Dal'venus' voice set :P)
-TV
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I would like to second what Talan said about the way Leanthar decided to approach this.
It shows us, the community, that we have a say in how things are done, that he trusts us in helping make this decision and we are a part of this world.
So very many other PW's do not do this. The decision is made and the players have to deal with it come what may.
So, thank you Leanthar for this.
~KK
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I believe that NG should always be the best way to go. So hell with the rules in favor of effort and time spent to make stellar Bio's. As DM's *and* characters, they've shown me that they're more than capable of doing what they've planned on, and I've only ever been off to the side of their RP. The only reservations that I have are what Filatus has said above, and I'm really not concerned as long as they properly fit it into the background of the world. I'm totally in favor of letting such work and dedication be approved!
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The two individuals in question have clearly demonstrated their dedication to Layonara by virtue of their performance as GMs as well as their RP. The obvious thought that went into these two character submissions is self-evident.
The only negative that I perceive is that a precedent will be set, which may encourage others to submit characters that would normally be denied and create additional work for the GM team. And they already work quite hard enough.
For what it's worth, I am in favor of approving both characters.
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After reading both the Bios i have to say wow.. an amazing amount of work went into them. And i agree that if there are any two people that could rp these characters correctly it is Pan and Storm. I feel that especially with the restrictions L said these will be amazing Characters.
I am for approving them,
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There is no question the amount of dedication, creativity and enjoyment these two individuals have brought to this world. That is not in question here. I have serious reservations about the characters they have submitted but it does not reflect in any way the men that wish to portray them.
My concerns are these:
1) What type of precedent does this set for future submissions of second generation Layonarians? With the popularity of the server we now have many characters approaching near epic and epic status. Many of these people have also contributed much to the community and wouldn’t be here so long and make Epic if they to were not good team players, role players and community builders. Will this set a standard for an elite group of “new” characters that will outpace and outclass newcomers with sheer knowledge of the world around them? As stated by their very biographies these girls will already be familiar with objects, places and events that some mid to high level characters have no idea of, let alone newcomers to the game.
- Mother told her own story that night. A story full of violence and trials that no one so young should have lived.
- long drawn stories from Uncle Connor about legends now forgotten.
- There were many others, dark people, light people, grandma Meli and her insane stories, the golems, auntie Lin even the sick elf Ozy who told all those stories of strange places that only he knew about.
- This time around her mother took it upon herself to instruct them in the basics of magic.
- Images given from a storytelling mother of times where sword and shield stopped vampires, demons and mad dragon worshipers.
- The next day mother informed the girls that she had to leave for a short time to deal with a certain matter regarding some magical “situation” that had occurred and knowing full well her mother would be back soon the two girls happily spend time telling stories of all the strange situations that each other had experienced during their absence.
It has been stated time and time again that this is a world of role play and not mechanics. However just because the game mechanics do not allow for these two to have special abilities outside the Assimar subrace, mechanics do not account for that information edge that they would have. These two men may have the ability to rise above the all too human temptations to use this information to their advantage, but short of cracking the girls on the skull and giving them a memory wipe, it’s there. A character is the sum of their experiences.
- they made it to a place that they will never forget. ( in reference to the pools of the weird and home with Stone)
2) From Rev’s post in the Character development section “10) A deity appearing to the character or a deity taking active part in the life of the character will not be approved”
Then:
- the small circle of stones surrounding her was bathed in a soft blue light that sparkled quietly to a bright thunder illusioned on the ground…Her gifts of magic came from a divine source…Lucinda had answered.
Cuts a very fine line, in my opinion
3) These children are human protégé. They are far more advanced than children of their own race and I don’t believe the claim to Assimar can bolster that.
By age 10:
-they had ridiculously long hours of the hardest subjects all stacked up against one another.
-Alassë …A flaming globe chasing a teacher
-…a subject which she was strangely intuitive for was basics of runes. The strange patterns came to her in a natural way that defied explanation, mostly attributed to the fact that she could feel her way through them as if it was a huge puzzle…(Silmarwen)
By Age 12:
Many hours they spent in preparation of what was to come. Long drawn meditations to accommodate to the environment and what was hidden to the naked eye. Many afternoons exercising the senses to make sure they were kept attuned to the slightest shift. They followed their mother's instruction in hand movement and body positioning. Slowly they were trained to ignore distractions when involved in calling the Weave.
-watching her sister fly small balls of flame around the room..
-(Silmarwen) for a 12 year old …her final examinations to apply for Potentiate status were soon approaching
- She was knowledgeable in the arts of weave-crafting and had great potential to become skilled in practical magic.
Ages 13-15:
-Her sister's skills in the arcane increasing tremendously
-By this time she had committed the books to memory and understood quite well the different anatomical positions to channel the energy to
And Finally Concern 4) These passages trouble me:
She adapted the basic conjuration patterns to spill forth far more energy than normal, her hands glowing brightly as her eyes flared in a golden blue explosion. Her hair standing as the Weave was tapped and her hands channeling the pureness of the places untainted. Nemulithrion was not fast enough to counter her, caught unaware the sequence she was evoking finished and there was nothing he could but brace for the impact. A deadly silence filled the chamber as all the energy was absorbed into the sphere. Silmarwen focused in it and saw as small sinewy threads of bright light were expanding from the center of the sphere. Her hands had begun to shake and extreme pain coursed through her fingers, pain that seemed to be seeking natural life. When the excruciating sensation reached her wrists, blue tendrils began forming on her skin, the weave imposed and marking her arms all the way from wrist to just below her elbows. The sphere then exploded in a bright light that filled the room as Silmarwen was blasted to the floor and fell unconscious. With extreme horror her teacher took her to a small infirmary they had prepared for more natural healing practices and laid her on a small cot. He tried reversing the strange sapphire-colored impressions on her arms but every time he tried to touch them it would burn him. Instead he chose to focus on just bringing her back to consciousness, her vital signs were perfectly fine and she was in perfect condition, yet any attempt to wake her was futile. Comatose and infused by excessive forces for such a young body Nemulithrion could do nothing else than to watch and keep her safe. The worse had happened and there was no known cure for such ailment…….
Kneeling in front of her Alassë curiously reached for her bandaged hands and slowly moved her small digits to touch her sister's face. When the sibling contact was established Silmarwen's eyes opened slightly. Smiling at the figure in front of her all she could say to her sister were four simple words. “You took too long”.
While the special bond that exists between twins has long been explored in science and literature the seeming claim that it cured “worse had happened and there was no known cure for such ailment”
Also:
Grandma told Silly sometimes when there are bad things that are going to happen we can feel it, she called it a Weave Intuition. (I don't like them, they are like bad elbow pains) Somehow I managed to put the sharp tooth fish to sleep before it had its lunch and Mum killed it with her bow before it ate Jessica. Problem was though...I was used so much in my premotion that I was too tired.
These are huge leaps in the direction of future special claims if not by them by someone else with a similar written occurrence in a character submission.
These are wonderfully written, well thought out pieces of fiction and should be duly commended to their authors. They are however not the biographies of player characters, but non-player characters. It is my opinion that approving these biographies would open the door for more in the same vein which may not have such altruistic motives or aspirations. They would pave the way for dissention between new people to our community and established members. The rules should apply evenly across the board to promote fairness to all. Would these characters be approved if submitted by Joe or Jane ReallyGoodRoleplayer?
My vote is No
Jennifer /Minerva
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[orange]While I will completely respect the decision made by Leanthar and this poll and the community as a whole, I feel I need to address some of the points you bring up from the submissions not for the fact that they are mine and I'm trying to defend them (which I am of course) but for a more important fact. I think most of your comments are misconceptions on how magical training occurs in a magical world and ultimately will detriment future characters that want to put more detail into their training and upbringing from writing them as they should be. As such I think its important you understand these. First of all on the stories department, you need to understand that these were little kids when all these were told. We're talking young pre-teen kids. Now I dont know about you but when I was growing up my aunts and uncles told me tons of fantasy stories that they elevated in fantastical nature to the Nth degree and I remember right now an absolute number of 2 of them. Kids get told stories, they take for what they are, a story. Parents in such setting take the things that may have happened to them and once again elevate them to fantasy stories within the legends so that it catches the attention of the kids with a low attention span. Disconnection of a character from growing up in the world and the history of the world is a bad thing. On the aspect of Silmarwen's recognition of her gift. In all sorts of settings, a gift is normally shown by some unconcsious act. It has no bearing on how strong the gift is, it is simply represented in different ways. In no way did that passage reflected on a personal touch by Lucinda, it instead signified how her focus and faith brought her to a close place with her deity enough to trigger that moment of growth. This happens to ALL clerics and spellcasters. That first time when they are able to use or recognize that they have the ability to channel divine gifts. A healer finally breaks the threshold and transmit positive energy. A sorcerer blows up window. A wizard realizes that they have the understanding of threading the weave. Please I encourage all characters to explore this moment as it will give your bios a starting point in their careers. Dont restrict yourself because that is not how it works in a world that has magic. And now to the thing that bothered me the most about your post, which was the actual training. When I say it bothered me I say it not because you drew on each aspect and posted it as an example, it bothered me because it told me that some people dont realize how these things come to fruition. First of all schooling is hard, especially for a couple of young individuals. Since this story was written from the perspective of the girls, the subjects they faced to them were hard. I am quite sure anyone here can say that the first time they came to face some of the most feared mathematical subjects in High School they had just about the same experience. I simply drew from that. I don't see anything wrong from that point in the matter. In magical wizard training. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. To enhance and train the gift, growing up mages are shown low level cantrips that can be very varied and do tricks to practice. Its called Prestidigitation and its a very basic aspect of training and variety in magic in PnP. You only need to pick a DnD book and it explains it quite well. All mages go through this and they all express it in different manners. Please please please, when writing a spellcasting biography, consider this point, I truly encourage it since its how mages are brought up in their training. All spellcasters, this includes druids, clerics, sorcerers and wizards, AGAIN VERY IMPORTANT, spend years and years trying to control and focus their bodies to be able to channel the gifts. Long hours of meditation and proper focus NEED to be implemented otherwise its like having a huge bat to play marbles. It just isn't fine tuned enough to do so. This last years and years and needs to be started from a very very young age. This is exactly why the Hitpoints you get per level for caster classes are lower than the rest. They focus their bodies to be an extension of their minds to SUCH point that they become weaker. That translates to years and years of training, even before they can begin to consider actively seeking level 1-9 spells. Again another aspect of PnP brought here. The last bit about Silmarwen's incident I think I made it pretty clear when I said that clerics of the Healing domain have a closer link to the Positive Energy plane. This is where healing comes from and to be able to have AUTOMATICALLY EMPOWERED spells, it simply means that you are far more attuned to this plane. "A small ball of negative energy that can be wisped by a strong wind" doesn't sound that awefully overpowered for someone who has been practicing her Orisons for sometime now. I think whats more important is the fact that she overdid with such a small and insignificant ball of goop that even shows more how her gift was all out of whack. And on that same subject, the "disease" mentioned is quite a known one in PnP for people that tap on the Positive planes. These planes are full of positive energy, positive energy is the energy that gives life. And if you pick up a book on the planes you'll come to see when you read on the Positive Energy plane that if someone remains in there for an amount of hours they LITERALLY explode into a bright explosion and become one with the plane. Now, Silmarwen by no means was tapping on this power at this sort of level, but it was enough for her young body to not be able to take. She was focused on her gift of magic and I felt it was a nice literally device to use her sister as her escape. It by no means is giving them any sort of special power, just that close link that twins show. I dont see anything wrong with that, it was just means to showing those special events that mark a person. On the last Alasse bit. She was referring to a simple sleep spell. A SLEEP spell mind you, which is a level ONE spell. Now imagine this, she cast a level ONE spell and her body couldn't take it and passed out. How is that claiming power, I am not sure. All in all, I am kinda glad that you brought these points up, because even despite the fact that some may not see it and eventually the girls could be denied. I hope the players that read this understand that they can do just the same and it should be right, because that is how training works in a magical world. Not by happily stumbling from the dragon dream to Hlint. No. It is be years and years and years of training and training from a very very young age. So hard and so long that it actually makes them gain those nasty 1d4 and 1d8 Hit dice, instead of the nicer 1d10s and 1d12s.
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Of course in refute.
1) Knowledge pf places never been is not intrinsic not locations that the girls have never explored. Knowledge of legends and myths, actions be characters of repute are available to ALL Layonarans. If you write into you bio that you were raised on Layoanara, which all should be, and have a decent enough lore most gms will fill you in on details of Legends and Myths as they arrive. Is it not a simple expectation that you as a normal person have understandings of snow white? Or little read riding hood? Or even Santa Claus. Of course you do. Common knowledge among people in a common world. This of course applies uniformly to all, those who have characters who are second generation or first generation Layonara Pc's. The girls might have had contact with some things that others dont know simply because of parentage, but on the other hand may well lack (eg: Xeen was a goddess of horticulture or something) in others.
Now Layonara is surely not a common world and as such some tales hold grains of truth, some might even be entirely true. In a world where dragons roam I guess catching Santa on Christmas Eve in your chimney wouldnt be such a big deal. As such many of the things that we take as fact as children to be disabused of later might on layo well be fact. That in itself is no reason to take what as told as any more or less true for these children as others.
Yet Eld does have a story, and yes she is free to tell her children of it. The same as she is free to tell every joe that works past ingame if she did feel like it. She wouldnt of course, and in actual unrealistic Layonaran fact Allie would never meet eld. Still a story of a parents life is most often given to the child. The same as others will have stories of family that come from parents and adults in there lives.
2)Stone/Laanela is not a god nor are there claims in any place to say he is such. I can refute little however since I myself am a player in that regard, pan is more qualified to answer. Yet to state that he is anymore/less than a once elemental bound now to Layonara is a misrepresentation. Nowhere in the bios is he claimed to be a god, nor anymore or less than eventually the weird of earth.
Regardless of what may be thought of Eld is a high level cleric and we cant deny that. That clerical post comes with duites and that actual event occured in game. Yet that actual event in fact had nothing to do with the church at all, though the girls PERCEPTIONS supplied that so called fact for them. It is actually untrue as are some of the things represented through juvenile sight. To accept all that as told is fact is something that surely is not good, and in the end I could havve detailed that Eld wasnt going for the church. Yet to to young minds everything she did have something to do with magic and her faith. Of course not true, much like children assuming here whenever daddy isnt home he is at work. That in itself is wrong yet a common young perception.
3)Well considering once people were considered adults at 13 and some people enter the Layonaran game at 16 or 17 with fully trained characters so Im not really sure what the point is here. Eld started as a full trained Pyrtchonite cleric at the early age of 16 moving to 17 odd, others start at 17 and some at 18. This is a fantasy world where alot of people like the pcs they play to start young. In that scheme of a youthful start as level one characters who can a mere few days later (weeks maybe a to three months in layonaran terms) sling fireballs from one puny missile im not sure where we are playing with such terms as "real" staggered development. In real life I start high school at 12 or 13, end at 17 or 18 and come in my case came out with a solid groundinig in english, physics, advanced math and calculus not to mention a few more. High school gives you relatively mid term unfocused view in RL..but the girls have had a focused curriculum, ending more with a directed learning solely on the crafts they specialise in. Of course Allie doesnt understand a whole buch aboud social interactions and the world around her as a cost to that, but that is the downside of a focused approach in her learning.
Tiny balls of flame not equivalent to a flare spell are kinda not a real huge thing, toys that dont set fire to your underwear arent what one would call a power plus.
Intuitive understanding of runes is a spellcraft skill and would start likely maxed for a level on character and keep being developed as any good cleric of Lucinda would. (sorry my replies are getting shorter but work is starting to get close now)
On the twins bond...Alasse never claimed to have cured her, in actual fact till this day she still believes Silly overslept again. The actual facts in the scenario are nebulous and open to speculation.
On the intution, we all have em and though I named it doesnt make it anymore than a hunch that all people get, high levels of wisdom supply frequently more accurate hunchs. On the exhaustion well to be honest that came from the sleep spell cast with the components of sand that lingered in her bathing suit from the beach...yep level one spells exhausted her because contrary to what is being discussed she isnt a demi god.
On the art and globes on the teacher, art is a representation of fact through eyes of the artist, Allies art is no different and to claim it is all perfect renditions of how it happened is much like claiming people exist the way that picasso painted some. They are representative of a view and artistic expression.
I guess the final note about Joe or someone else is held in Leanthars post here:
With all of that said and keeping in mind everything that they have done for the community should these two characters be approved? I don’t suggest they be approved for favoritism, which will never happen. What I do suggest is that we look at what these two have brought to the community in time, effort, emotions and a number of other things and reward them for doing that for us, for being there for us.
I am posting here since it is our place to refute and explain, it is really really IMPORTANT that you all know that as individuals and Gm's on the server we are not taking these things to note. I dont want anyone thinking that Pan or I are petty enough to abuse or positions over anyone having an opinion that may be different or adverse to our own.
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This poll is now closed. Thank you for voting.