The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: silverblades on January 10, 2006, 07:25:00 PM
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dont know if Im stirring up a nest here but here it goes.
Can there be a time span added to put on the armor. Iknow you cant put armor on in battle, but besides that could you have a wait period to put on armor. with a longer time span to put on full plate say 4 rounds half plate 3 rounds and so on till you get to a robe which should take perhaps 1 round.
Just from a RP stand point is all. This would make the game more realistic and would stop the running along while changing into heavy armor trick. I know I switch between armors quite often and Ive seen others do it too.
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I considered this when I put the system in a long time ago, and in PnP games it most certainly should be considered. I am just not sure it works in an online world... however, it works really well in PnP and makes people think.
I would like to hear feedback on this subject.
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I'd have fun with such a system (not because Lucius is a monk, of course ;)). It would create opportunities for situations such as night ambushes on GMed quests (I always loved doing that to players *evil grin*).
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I think it sounds like a good idea....gives players more of a responsibilty to watch their surroundings....also, it may cause people to always wear armor...increasing the number who already do.
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This is an interesting idea, and i agree that people should spend more time when switching armors. 3 or 4 rounds, or perhaps more, then subtract some time based on the character's Dexterity.
There's also the idea of people being slower when using heavier armors, like 10% Movement Speed Decrease.
Another issue related to item switching would be weapons. These should also take one round to swap, perhaps 2 for Large weapons such as Longbows, Greatsword, Greataxes, etc. Or even, 1 round for Small weapons, 2 for Medium and 3 for Large. Having these related to an ability would also work.
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Nah, weapons are ok I think, on PnP you waste a movement action to draw one, and since you're not moving in battle you can attack normally. After all, an adventurer would keep his weapons easy to draw.
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I'd love to see this, because it would at least put a damper on the "buff in the buff" behavior I see all the time. You know the trick -- take off heavy plate, cast arcane buff spells with 0% failure, put back on heavy plate, all in seconds. This has always bothered me, as it would take minutes to completely remove plate and put it back on. Maybe the time to put on/take off the armor should be tied into the arcane spell penalty, as this is already available for armor and is an indication of how encumbering (and therefore cumbersome to put on) the armor is? Just a thought.
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If this should be implemented I would like a option to rest with the armor on. Usually when Storold "rest" he simply just refreshes his spells and it should be posible to read in a book while wearing an armor.
The new rest shouldn't give any hp back but simply give the spells per day.
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In PnP games (which we are based on clearly) you must rest (sleep) before getting spells (either arcane or divine)... so if we go this path you will not be allowed to sleep (rest) in certain armors.
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One PnP thing we used to do was require 15 minutes of rest per spell per level.
So in other words, one could study 4 1st level spells in an hour, but the same hour would only allow 1 4th level spell. A single 9th level spell would take 2 hours, 15 minutes.
Or maybe it was 10 minutes per spell per level. Anyway, you get the point. It required us to dedicate some real time to resting, healing, etc.
I'm not in any way suggesting we do this, but this was a nice system in PnP that just wouldn't translate well into an online setting.
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Dorganath - 1/11/2006 12:27 PM One PnP thing we used to do was require 15 minutes of rest per spell per level.
So in other words, one could study 4 1st level spells in an hour, but the same hour would only allow 1 4th level spell. A single 9th level spell would take 2 hours, 15 minutes.
Or maybe it was 10 minutes per spell per level. Anyway, you get the point. It required us to dedicate some real time to resting, healing, etc.
I'm not in any way suggesting we do this, but this was a nice system in PnP that just wouldn't translate well into an online setting.
Yeah, then if you had just a couple hours you could choose to prepare a few specific spells that you thought you would need the most. Another thing that we couldn't really do in a PW. -TV
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if there is a delay while putting on armor, could it be tied to an emote? so that it looks like the PC is actually doing somthing and not just standing there waiting for a suit of plate to appear.
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OR....
Instead of coming up with a system whereby the Development/Project Teams have to spend hours to make some complex system, why not just emote it as part of your RP?
I know at least one character who does:
*begins strapping on his armor, taking several minutes to complete*
Just because you can put on your full plate armor, jump up and run in the span of 6 seconds doesn't mean you have to do so. :)
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It takes a lot more time than a few minutes, closer to an hour I think (if not more), to put on plate armor. It actually requires help from other people to put it on. So I would really like to see a delay system implemented or simply see more people RP the armor change. Imagine a 15th century knight hop in and out of his plate armor, kind of funny isn't it? :)
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In another PW I played on, there were temporary penalties whenever equipment was switched in combat, specifically weapons.
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In another PW I played on, there were temporary penalties whenever equipment was switched in combat, specifically weapons.
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Yeah... I think some things are better left to the players to play out instead of bogging down things with more mechanics.
We thought about a movement decrease in heavy armor before... but imagine running quests where half the party is lagging behind? Or then us having to go through and slow down all the creatures in the module wearing heavy armor.
And then... we may as well make gold weigh something. And limit the amount of items you can carry, because carrying 40 suits of armor is silly.
And so on and so on.
This is still just a game. Some things are just better left alone. I think this is one of those things.
Usually when I need to put my armor on or off and it's in the presence of others I'll excuse myself and duck behind a building or whatever, to symbolise me getting dressed. It's easy and simple and gets the point across.
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One problem Ive had with armor is that its boosts AC which is the ability to dodge......shouldnt armor decrease ac and increase the dmage reduction...just a suggestion
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Delays in putting armor on is a great idea in PnP ... but Layo is not PnP.
Because of the way NWN handles combat, there would be no real strategy in this. It wouldn't provoke thought, it would just hold people up, and cause frustration and death.
It is a wonderful concept, I just do not think with the NWN environment it would work well.
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Good.. good the post has done its job.
*removes stick from ants nest*
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I have played on different servers that had a system in place that held character immobile while putting on armor for a few seconds.The same system also froze a character for a short duration while changing weapons.
On another server they had decreased movement for different armors.A player in Full plate moved slower than a player in studded leather.
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Force_of_Will_ - 2/17/2007 12:15 PM
On another server they had decreased movement for different armors.A player in Full plate moved slower than a player in studded leather.
I'd actually like to see this.
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Me too. So long as it's done right (dwarves dont' move slower in heavy armor, etc) and applied to both players and NPCs.
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Force_of_Will_ - 2/17/2007 9:15 AM
I have played on different servers that had a system in place that held character immobile while putting on armor for a few seconds.The same system also froze a character for a short duration while changing weapons.
On another server they had decreased movement for different armors.A player in Full plate moved slower than a player in studded leather.
I would -LOVE- to see that, that can finally add sense to wearing a light metal armor other than looking cool.
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I'll go for Dorganaths idea instead of using the teams time on it.
I agree this could be a really good touch to RP, though there are (in my opinion way too) many aspects to consider, interpret, analyze before being able implement it.
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A system like this wouldn't be that hard to code ((just a check on equip item) and would be interesting if combined with an X% chance of a random encounter when resting.
X% could vary according to the area. i.e. 0% for Hlint up to maybe 5% for say the underdark. Possibly the percentage should be less the larger the group (ie a creatures won't want a larger group?) There does need to be some carefull consideration here though.
The result of such a system is:
1.) Encourage parties to set up proper watch systems so the whole party isn't resting when an encounter and at least one warrior is wearing their armour.
2.) Mean there is a chance of magic users/clerics having thier sleep disturbed and not getting any spells (a trick the quest GMs are familiar with). This creates an air of tension and cautiousness.
3.) Increase the element of risk when soloing.
Having played on servers wear armour affects movement speed I saw the following effects:
1.) When fleeing from an encounter, heavily armoured PCs can be caught as they lag behind and opened up like a can of spam (YUM!)
2.) In an open battle it can be more difficult for heavily armoured chars to protect the magic users (the giants always rush after the fireball caster) as they don't have the intercept speed. It means spell casters need to think harder about where they stand and when they cast offensive spells.
3.) The Barbarian class becomes more attractive as it has a 10% speed boost. Similar story with monks and thier speed boosts. As someone who has played the 'classic D&D barbarian' (medium or light armour with a two handed weapon) on Layo, I know how tough it is to play in layo. This could balance it out a bit.
4.) Tanks in this scenario are far more likely to adopt the real-life medieval habit of knights, which is to travel in normal clothes, but then change when they reach somewhere where they know there will be trouble. i.e A PC walking from Fort Llast to Port Hampshire will risk light armour going through Krandor Outskirts, that river just south of Llast, and Fort Hope, but will suit up for all the other areas. It makes fighters think a bit more (horror of horrors) and means that a GM in the mood for mischief can cause chaos in a party by dropping a small and relatively easy encounter on an un-prepared party.
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5) There will be a reason for people to use light metal armors ;)
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There are NWN mechanics issues with movement speed decreases, specifically, getting around them via spells/item properties (which wouldn't work in PnP since the "slower-ness" isn't a modifier, it sets your base speed to whatever new value.) Also with stacking with various other speed increases/decreases. Not unsurmountable but annoying.
there are issues with armor equipping delays too. If we paralyze a PC who just donned armor then we might get into the ettercap entangle bug (documented bioware bug.) There isn't really a good emote for "donning armor," which isn't such a big deal I suppose. The only way to do this well would be via a mini-cutscene I think. If you've played Wyvern Crown of Cormyr and mounted/dismounted a horse, thats what I'm talking about. hm, yeah that could be done. Regardless this definitely needs an "Are we sure this isn't just going to be annoying?" analysis.
As for resting, I expect some interesting developments as v3 is phased in.
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The annoying part is negated by the fact heavy armors currently have no down sides..
At best a chainshirt grants 8ac (with the 4dex bonus counted) and a fullplate with less dex grants more ac (9, and only 12 dex compared to 18 needed)... it requires a downside!
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Downside?
Feats required: Heavy Armor
Weight: 50.0
Armor check penalty: -8
Well of course that's not really a problem if your class has heavy armor proficiency, has enough STR to carry it anyway and doesn't use any skills that would be lowered by the check penalty.
However you can't really compare armors like that. Different people wear different kind of armors, that's how D&D has always been. Like you have fighters and paladins with their full plate, rogues with their lighter armor and higher dex to go with it. Rangers get their dualwield bonus with light armour but no one's telling a ranger to not specialise in the use of heavy armor and shields if they want to.
Even a rogue could wear full plate. As long as you got enough STR to carry it and high enough skills to not be too bothered by the -8, and the feats of course. But why would a rogue usually wear a full plate when they get a higher AC from just their dex modifier (talking about NWN with its +12 dex from magic and whatever).
Though yes I have to agree it's a bit sad that only three or four of the armor types in NWN are used. It's either cloth (0/0), leather armor (2/6), chainmail (5/2) or full plate (8/1) you see. Worst I think is people not making their armor look like what it should. Like the typical thing you see in NWN is a full plate with a full metal torso and the rest of the look is all cloth, bare hands, etc. But that's how NWN deals with armor... not much to do about it.
EDIT: Well that was totally offtopic. So I'll add a bit more here.
I have to agree with the people here who say it's up to people themselves to RP the taking off armor and equipping it. And it should take a while. Though if you're just running around yourself, I don't think it's that important to stop for a minute to equip your armor and emote it and all. However in a group it makes a bit more sense and watching people change their clothes while talking to people or while running is quite horrible to watch... at least when they're not emoting it.
I suppose a high dex character would be able to change clothes while running... I would really like to see that happen sometime with proper emotes. Hehe.
And then about the slow thing. I think I've said it before that I disagree with making heavy armor slower to move around with. I mean if your character has 30 strength and can carry a few tons of ore... What's stopping him from running around in a bit of metal that's made to be moved around in.
If we were living in a real world here, of course you couldn't run in a full plate... probably not even really move by yourself. But this is more like a roleplaying game that's not supposed to be realistic. Besides some of the metals may be lighter or the armorsmiths could have ways to craft the armor so that it's durable but lightweight.
Not to mention it would be kind of difficult to implement with the speed stacking things. Like a freedom of movement before equipping your armor would probably make you immune to the slow and stupid things like that.
Also half the characters in a group moving at a slower speed and having to put on their armor every now and then would just make things frustrating. It's about fun after all.
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The downside is that you need a good deal of str to lift the full plate. And i really dont find it unfair that a full plate can get you 1 ac higher than a chainshirt.
About the time it takes to put on an armor, this discussion has come up before. It all comes down to how fine gritty we want to go with realism. It also takes longer than a few seconds to sail between continents, and you cant run from one end of Mistone to the other in mere minutes. Putting on armor is one of those things that does take time and all characters know it takes time.
EDIT: Uhm yeah, and what IDii said :)
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With 18 str you can carry a full plate just fine, infact, with 16 you can do it.
Now to gain any decent AC with a chain shirt/chainmail you need high dex (18/16)
How is that a fair trade? the STR adds weight, damage, fort.. the dex adds reflex saving throws :P
Not to mention that the little advantage of having light armor when climbing stuff/swimming is totally negated by the fact they remove their armor and magically carry it on their back as they climb up the mountain naked with the same ease I do with my light armor.
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Do not disparage against the reflex saving throw. Drop a fireball on a fighter and a rogue, watch who comes out unscathed.
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Also, there's much more you can do in RP with DEX than with STR, in my experience. Unless you carry around ingots of adamantium that you like to bend.
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darkstorme - 2/18/2007 5:30 PM
Do not disparage against the reflex saving throw. Drop a fireball on a fighter and a rogue, watch who comes out unscathed.
Of course the rogue, but reflex is his higher save.
The extra 3 reflex a fighter using a chain shirt to gain extra ac doesnt do much help :/
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IDii - 2/18/2007 5:43 AM
Though yes I have to agree it's a bit sad that only three or four of the armor types in NWN are used. It's either cloth (0/0), leather armor (2/6), chainmail (5/2) or full plate (8/1) you see.it.
Yep and you heavy armor folks should really look at half plate armors (hint)
I try to always RP putting on my armor and taking it off. Somtimes you dont have the time though. But think of it this way, as a heavy armor fighter all I do is put on my armor and activate one or two items when the group is getting ready. The rest of the time I just stand there as a lot os spells and blessing get cast. So you can think of that as the time it take to put on armor. I dont see aneed to put any code in place for this