The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: jrizz on January 26, 2006, 09:51:57 AM
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Are there any bow makers out there that are having luck selling bows? I have posted a few in the trade hall and have seen some really nice ones posted but very few sell. I have had a little luck but mostly with bartering. Lets start a discussion on the topic of selling bows, crossbows, staffs, arrows, bolts all wood items.
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I think possibly that the reason you have a hard time selling bows is that those that use bows extensively make their own. And the rest of us melee fighters only buy a bow if we have the spare jinks.
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We have too many skilled crafters, and not enough bodies to use the items they make.
Its is a basic a supply and demand issue.
Make each item bind itself to its owner... and then no one else can ever use it.
So that one sword or bow or +2 ring doesnt last for ever and ever.
Joe X buys a Hickory bow... Binds himself to it... at level 5 he buys an Oak bow (selling the Hickory to a pawnshop since it is only equipable by Joe X)... he then binds himself to that bow.... etc etc...
Do this to all equippable items... and you will see that crafters will then actually have buyers... since things won;t get handed down thru the ages.
EDIT Even this is no cure... we simply have more crafters making more items than we have people to use them.
But it would help take things out of circulation
G-452
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well... now Im both trying to make weapons, bows and shields, simply because I couldnt get money for such things by selling leathers.... I guess the best thing to do is to make most items yourself.
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G-452's model is what they do in WoW, once an item has been equiped, it cannot be sold to another player, only to the merchants (and out of the game). Layonara has long had a problems with markets. Heck, WoW has 60,000 players on a server, and some things dont sell well.
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Perhaps the wood workers should make an ageement to stop selling bows for a while. Of course that could result in even more people making thier own bows.
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breakable items. But that would probally cause lag.
Plus the bow I saw you selling isn't usefull for most bow users. Point blank shot is usually a feat chosen. So you need to find someone who normally wouldn't use a bow.
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Give temple donations of your surplus. That gives good material for RP, strengthens the particular temple and moves more items out of play.
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Id like to see weapons Break. maybe a system if one can be made where a weapon breaks after say 20 rolls of 1 or maybe 50 rolls of 1.
The World i use to DM in PnP had a system where if a player rolled a 1(critical failure).
The weapon made a save vs crushing blow.If it failed it broke.
For armor and shields they Broke after 20 crital hits.They could be repaired by smiths for a price.
On another server I played they gave each Item so many charges and when the item got to 2 charges you needed to take it in to be repaired.If not the item broke at 0 charges.
Maybe this will help sales for crafters.
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Force_of_Will_ - 1/26/2006 9:27 PM
Id like to see weapons Break. maybe a system if one can be made where a weapon breaks after say 20 rolls of 1 or maybe 50 rolls of 1.
The World i use to DM in PnP had a system where if a player rolled a 1(critical failure).
The weapon made a save vs crushing blow.If it failed it broke.
For armor and shields they Broke after 20 crital hits.They could be repaired by smiths for a price.
On another server I played they gave each Item so many charges and when the item got to 2 charges you needed to take it in to be repaired.If not the item broke at 0 charges.
Maybe this will help sales for crafters.
I have seen this been discussed before and it is agreed that it would make for a good thing for RP it would add Overwhelming amounts of lag.
This is the quote from what i think is the latest item wear thread
Leanthar - 3/6/2005 9:55 AM
Yeah, I wish we could have item wear/tear because it would be used and in place. With NWN (1) at least we can't for PW's because it causes major lag hits/spikes.... But it is on the drawing board IF we go to NWN 2 or DA (I said IF, btw).
( http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10904&posts=14&mid=61921&highlight=breaking+weapons&highlightmode=1&action=search#M61921 )
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well, as an archer that DOES NOT make my own bows... there should be more like me out there!!! yes, I usually only go to one person (for now) to get my weapons, but I'd be willing to buy from more people if they were selling at prices I can afford, or for my level. I have a bow for when I hit level 9 already, so I'm out of the bow buying market for awhile.
maybe: IF we could get more bows that you need leveling up more. that made no sense, bear with me: level one bow, level 5 bow, level 8 bow, 10..12..15..18..19..20
if we could upgrade our bows more often, we may buy more often. As it is, I've had the same bow right now for a month, and the next one I don't forsee being rid of until I'm much higher level. I know I could do the whole compound bow thing, but you can only get those at the same levels as the other bows.so you have to choose: long bow, or compound. at level 11 (for example) most people would go straight for the compound. Why not adjust some of the power, and make the longbow avalible at level 10, the compound avalible at 12 (for example) then the next best long bow at 14, next compound 16... etc. etc.
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I really like the idea of binding items to certain characters and I would like to see in Layonara. I think right now there are quite a few armors from the V1 days circulating in the world, same goes for bows, jewelry - everything. Such changes would create a large demand for items, even the ones that are almost impossible to sell nowadays, mostly +1 type
This idea gets an A+ from me.
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Well, the idea of binding weapons to people seems like a hack to me.
It has no "reality factor" - its clearly artificial. In the real world, a weapon can be reused or passed down or resold. (But, on the other hand, in the real world a weapon requires maintenance - filing and sharpening, repairs, replacements of wearable elements like bowstrings.)
And the idea seems to me to be bad for RP. In the fantasy worlds and literature, weapons have histories, and the people who used them before become part of that history. If a character moves up to a higher level of equipment, its an RP opportunity to give or sell his weapon to a lower level character, and for the lower level character to know and preserve the story of his weapon, and to pass that story on to the next person who takes that weapon. Wouldn't it be more interesting if every weapon (Ok maybe not your first hickory bow but everything more than that) had a story? Other than..."oh I made it myself", that is.
The person who made Sen his first good bow insisted that he name it, and had a nice little mystical story about how he would be inspired to know the proper name after he used it a little while. It was a nice RP touch.
This would all work better not if weapons broke, but if we just made a lot fewer of them of course...
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"And the idea seems to me to be bad for RP. In the fantasy worlds and literature, weapons have histories, and the people who used them before become part of that history. If a character moves up to a higher level of equipment, its an RP opportunity to give or sell his weapon to a lower level character, and for the lower level character to know and preserve the story of his weapon, and to pass that story on to the next person who takes that weapon. Wouldn't it be more interesting if every weapon (Ok maybe not your first hickory bow but everything more than that) had a story? Other than..."oh I made it myself", that is. "
Got to say that I agree with this.
Lalaith had a nice bow, and she could have easily gotten a better one, but she didn't, and she waited until the time when Talan would let her use his old bow. It was symbolic in a lot of ways to her IC and she spent the whole night admiring it, not because it was a better bow than she had, but because it used to be Talan's bow. This bow has a story, a histroy. and to me/Lalaith that was more important than other aspects of the weapon.
Had it been bound to him, she would have just any another bow. Instead this bow, beaten and worn was used at thedestruction of two Bloodpools, and used when we battledalongsideThe Longstorm fordays on end.. used by undoubtedlyone of the best archersin Layonara, whom had once many many years ago learned to shoot his first arrow with his sister Lalaith. She even knows that the bow is not hers to keep,if he ever finds a student archer arcane, who is worthy, the bow will be passeddown to them.
So while I admitthat it might be betterforthose making and selling items, and probably for the economy. I don't think thatbinding items to a person is the best solution.
LV
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Lalaith Va'lash - 1/27/2006 4:57 AM "And the idea seems to me to be bad for RP. In the fantasy worlds and literature, weapons have histories, and the people who used them before become part of that history. If a character moves up to a higher level of equipment, its an RP opportunity to give or sell his weapon to a lower level character, and for the lower level character to know and preserve the story of his weapon, and to pass that story on to the next person who takes that weapon. Wouldn't it be more interesting if every weapon (Ok maybe not your first hickory bow but everything more than that) had a story? Other than..."oh I made it myself", that is. "
Got to say that I agree with this.
Lalaith had a nice bow, and she could have easily gotten a better one, but she didn't, and she waited until the time when Talan would let her use his old bow. It was symbolic in a lot of ways to her IC and she spent the whole night admiring it, not because it was a better bow than she had, but because it used to be Talan's bow. This bow has a story, a histroy. and to me/Lalaith that was more important than other aspects of the weapon.
Had it been bound to him, she would have just any another bow. Instead this bow, beaten and worn was used at the destruction of two Blood pools, and used when we battled along side The Longstorm for days on end.. used by undoubtedly one of the best archers in Layonara, whom had once many many years ago learned to shoot his first arrow with his sister Lalaith. She even knows that the bow is not hers to keep, if he ever finds a student archer arcane, who is worthy, the bow will be passed down to them.
So while I admit that it might be better for those making and selling items, and probably for the economy. I don't think that binding items to a person is the best solution.
LV
Whoa! I must totally agree, weapons do have story, and most people should be proud of it.
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Hopping on the bandwagon, Cole has kept every set of armor and sword he has used (except the iron sword eaten by a rust monster, =P )because each has memories tied to it. His early armor designs are somewhat signature, and only the right person will inherit Cole's old armors and weapons, possibly even somewhat who can't use them, simply so they are not forgotten. They will never be sold.
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Part of the problem is that is is too easy to craft, and too hard!
Let me explain. Almost everyone can pick up most of the crafts, so many do. To progress, you need to make lots and lots of items, so many do. The result is too many items to make anykind of worthwhile market. How many bows do you use as you progress through the levels? Lets see, hickery, oak, mahogany, yew. Did I miss any, and would it really matter? I really dont like binding the items. I would go the other route, limit how many crafts people can pick up, say you can pick two. Some of the crafts need things from other crafts, so player interaction would probably increse. I know the howls this would cause. It affects me to. Perago can still be on at least half of the ladders if I wanted him to be. Then limit the tools to gather for the craft to those in the craft, or split the craft into gathering and production. This is the WoW model.I dont think we can have 100% success rate in procution. Our craft paths are too short for that, and are usually the best things players can get. Dropped loot that is better is pretty rare. Limiting the craft paths for each person would cut down on the items produced.
Oh, and Perago has always used bows made by Enzo.
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Right, this has likely been brought up in previous discussions of this topic, or simply among the DM's themselves, but here's an idea if we choose to limit the number of crafts a person can participate in without completely cutting off those that want to be serious merchant/crafters (have more than two or three crafts they rank in):
Make each crafting discipline (tinkering, alchemy, etc) require a feat. Have each character start off with two crafting feats at first level; that is, they have some proficiency or practice in two fields of crafting. Then, those that want to pursue more crafting avenues may take the feats as they level to learn more crafts. (and no, for those that read this and think fighters would have an advantage, they wouldn't, since the crafting feats would not count for a 'fighter bonus feat', meaning they could only be taken for character feats)
Advantages:
1) More interaction as crafters must find others who make the things they can't but still need to perform their own craft.
2) More "realistic" as those that excel in multiple crafting disciplines should have had to work for many, many years to develop all the skills. This is represented by having to wait to take the feat every three levels if you want a access to a new craft. In PnP, magical crafting uses similar restrictions. You have to take different feats depending on whether you want to make wands, magic armor, etc.
3) Would slow the flood of goods to a small degree, but would also help determine when a market (like the bow market) is going to get flooded, as it can be seen just which are the 'popular' crafts quickly by how many people took the feats. This should help to balance out each craft, as demand will dictate what people will consider learning as a craft.
4) Masters will arise (not they they don't exist now, but many are more overall crafters rather than masters of a specific trade) in specific trade areas. Apprenticeships will make more sense as the character may not already know a craft, but can RP with a master, justifying taking the new crafting feat.
Disadvantages:
1) Those that already have many ranks in five or more crafts either get stilted and lose their work, or gain a feat advantage over new characters. This alone is enough to thwart this idea.
2) Character feats are expensive. Even spending just one on a crafting feat severely limits the directions your character can go mechanically. This can also be listed as an advantage, however, in that it discourages characters from leveling in seven or eight different crafts, forcing them to interact with and buy from other characters, keeping the economy in constant motion.
3) I have no clue how much scripting this would involve and how hard it's implementation would be in that regard.
There may be more advantages/disadvantages than I listed here. Feel free to voice them. I'm sure you already planned to. ;-)
Just an idea.
I'm also dropping this into the "suggestions" area of the forums.
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as I read along through this whole thread, I couldn't help but agree most of all with Milton and the others who shared his ideas previously.
To me, that -is- the problem.. we have too many doing too much. It is very time consuming to use a craft, but I say we limit it down to one job not two if it's possible, the reason being. Two is too much here.
Example: If you have a rogue they'll want leather (1 Job), what else do they want? if they're a bow user they'll take wood working, if they're a sword user they will probably go for something else possibly gem crafting.
A fighter will specialize in Armor and Weapons.
My point being, we're not eliminating the problem. Two choices are what many already focus on, with the occasional "I have to tinker for molds." Well, if you're an Armor Smith or Weapon Smith, You may just do tinkering as your second job, so that you're self sufficient. but when is -any- company in our known world.. completely self-efficient?
I say one job, then the armor smiths have to look for Tinkers.. the tinkers have to make excess to sell.
*Shrugs* It's just my two cents that I think two is still too many.
:o ,
YotS
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But one Job means the Armor or Weapon smith cant even smelt metal... since Smelting is seperate.
I also agree with this way of dealing with it (as I said before in my Jack of all Trades.... Master of none thread)
But one tradeskill isnt enough.
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=17338&posts=36
My idea as you can see in this thread works more like a pyramid. Anyone can craft anything low level then as you progress you define your crafting route... Metal work, then armor or weapons, woodwork , bows etc.... enchanting, scribing... alchemy...
As you advance eventually you will only be able to progress in your chosen areas... so a Metal worker / Weapon smith... will have all the basic skills he needs to make molds.. but his refined skills will allow him to advance as a weapon smith... he cant just decide to make bows.... or scribe just because he has the stats... or buff spells.
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Just to note, Talan has sold many many many oak bows he made, though only a handfull of mahogany ones (lots more new characters are created that never reach level 10+, so the market is acctually much larger for lower level items.) A handfull is still... maybe 12-15 over his career. Yes I made probably 60 or something obscene while I was practicing. But there aren't 60 characters that regularly use those weapons and don't already have them, so it would be ludicrous to expect to sell them in that kind of volume.
The Pawnshop in hampshire gave me... i think it was 254 each *grins*
Just to note, of the three bows Talan has used, he didn't make a single one. I don't even think he's ever done ANY of the work (cams, bow parts) on any of his own bows. I remember where they all came from too:
1st - Erred Windancer - Bought it from him a week or so before Duur started going crazy in hlint on Rhiz's Ithillid quest and killed the smithy dwarf and ended up in jail, where Erred stayed to comfort him. No idea where he is now. Kobal upgraded it to a composite bow after I committed the faux pas of asking him about "bow rods" *snickers* Later I bought bow parts II from Enzo for it.
2nd - Kobal - I'm not sure if Kobal made everything on this when I originally got it, but the bow parts III were the ones I won at enzo's raffle to raise funds for Folian's temple.
3rd - Aleister - Made from yew the late mage purchased from some brave/foolish woodcutters. I made the cams, Triba put them on and made the bow parts III for me from 100 nuggets of platinum that I hired Kaizer Thell to mine for me. Including one failure, EVERY SINGLE nugget was consumed in the making of this bow, with the addition of one I found in my house and one I had to beg from Derrick.
So yeah, I could do the same thing with every sword I've ever used. and I could tell a more colorfull and epic story about all of them too, about what they were used in and for and things.. but this is the short version just about where they came from.
Items are so much more fun when they're not just a list of stats. Acctually, they're rather boring if they're just a list of stats ;)
-TV
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Talan Va'lash - 1/27/2006 4:35 PM
Items are so much more fun when they're not just a list of stats. Acctually, they're rather boring if they're just a list of stats ;)
I completely agreed with that although quite a few of my items have such intricate stories they all have stories and i have had most of them for a long time and most likely will never sell them.
Then onto the limited crafts, while this would most likely succeed at reducing the the number of items entering the economy it would also devastate the established crafters. Aralin has 3 crafts in which he is above level 10 in, 11 in gem crafting, 14 enchanting and 15 tinkering. I have spent hours and hours of work on each of those honing them until i could get to those levels, if i had to choose two of them it would completely destroy the hours of work that have been out into each of those (apart from those i have several smaller crafts that i have invested time in but not the amount of these).
Limiting crafts by feat again would destroy those established crafters that have spent these astronomical amounts of time developing. The characters that are already developed and mid-high levels that are crafting characters would(might) be completely useless at crafting because they were not built with the feats that would be needed.
On limiting items:
I do however agree that something needs to be done further with several of the crafts that are not difficult to progress in hence have a surplus of those items. The limits now imposed on crafts along with the badges is a good step in this direction however.
Woocrafting, in my opinion this is the easiest craft for producing final products, and because of that the economy has been flooded with oak and even mahogany bows.
My suggestion on these would be to include more ingredients in the recipes for bows, preferably materials that are either difficult to gather and/or need to be purchased. Requiring a Wood Oil for each bow, for example, would hopefully work the same wasy as Enchanting Oil, imposing a gold cost to the crafting of each object. (in my opinion this "oil" or whatever other ingredient should have a price on par with enchanting oil)
Tailoring, this is another of the quite easy crafts, while i don't have much experience with the craft there are several things which i believe would help control this craft. Requiring another ingredient(as above) but another idea which i believe would do more is have each skinnable animal not automatically drop a pelt but rather have a chance to drop a pelt (maybe 50-75%?). This would limit the raw materials therefore limiting the craft much more than a purchaseable ingredient.
Tinkering, this was the other craft in which there has been an incredible amount of mass producing, but since the updates, add more chance of breaking to sand deposits, and removing the spell components from being craftable i believe this has mostly been solved.
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Actually, the absolute easiset craft to level, IMHO, is instrument making. But this is limited to bards, with an even more limited chance to sell
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Um
"Actually, the absolute easiset craft to level, IMHO, is instrument making. But this is limited to bards, with an even more limited chance to sell"
We're getting off the original topic here but - Sen's puzzled by this statement, but sees from the skill stats that Perago must know something about the subject.
Sen's finding food crafting, alchemy, tinkering, gem cutting and tailoring all easier to level in than instrument crafting. Especially food crafting. Maybe he's stuck at some funny plateau in the trade because the very few things he has a decent chance to make give him a tiny number of points each. Or maybe he has a character flaw...
He'll be watching for Perago in-game to learn some tricks from a master.
Anyway, agreed that there's nobody who wants to buy the instruments - just like the real world, you gotta do it for the love of music...but you're all crafting for the love of it and the RP involved right? Nobody is ever going to make more money crafting than they will spending the same time killing ogres and taking their gold.
On the other subject - (and I'm obviously an offender but its opportunistic) - I've said it elsewhere but:
I kind of hate the idea of hard-limiting crafts or taking feats or something, but there should be something to discourage characters from doing all crafts. I found the new "badge" system a bit useless, but if we had to buy a badge for EACH craft, or each crafting device, we wanted to use, I think then we'd have a useful, real-life-like and effective way to make people think twice about how many crafts they take up. Set the price of the badge individually for each craft at the right price to balance things out, and we could do as many crafts as we want but we'd think twice about it before we jumped in, and maybe we'd look for someone else to sell us a few molds or some thread instead of taking up another craft.
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// this comment, like my last is really out of character. I dont think the badge system would work, because it just uses gold, an accumulating resource anyways. I am sure most of the high level players have stacks of it, and can get plenty more. That is not a solution. As to the ease, Perago is qualified to speak. He food crafting 13 (as high as anyone had gotten before he left), alchemy 14, tinkering 17, gem cutting 12, and tailoring 22. Oh yea and Instrument making 16. I am not going to try to level Instrument making, because other than Platinum harps, the rest of the things he needs to make level involve Yew. Yew being somewhat rare right now, I cant seem to get any to make instruments.
But I found instruments the easiest to level because it took the fewest successes to level, and the ingrediaents aren't hard to get. Silk for the strings has gotten harder, but can be obtained in Seilwood. Hickory, just south of Hlint.I spent less time leveling instruments to 16 than I spent on cooking to 13, and tinker to 17. You have to get a LOT of clay and sand to level tinkering. Sorry, but you wont be learning much from Perago, he will not be spending that much time crafting.
I have discussion about trade craft with Amaduena, who has a lot, and Asher Hardrock, who has reached 20 in three different crafts. Keeping you name on the ladders is not something everyone does anymore. We are all in agreement that most things just get sold staight to the vendor. That you do it for love of the trade, not to make money (try enchanting if you want a money sink). My above observation holds, that without a drastic change, there will be little market for most crafted items created in Layonara.
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Hmmm, well at my level and for my character gold's a very scarce resource, and so Sen is always thinking carefully about what his next purchase is going to be. And he can't even imagine a room at the Arms or a house, which he really needs. Extra crafting badges would probably go way down on his priority list if he had to choose and so he would always probably put that off in favor of an armor, a bow, a bag, a belt...
I figure the marginal utility of one too many crafting badges would be so low that lots of characters wouldn't start many crafts until they had become superheros with lots of gold - and then they'd be starting a little late on a new craft and probably have better things to do, wouldn't they?
I guess it depends on who it is that is responsible for this "problem" of too much crafting - low to medium level players with nothing better to do or high level players with too much money?