The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => CNR Suggestions/Discussion => Topic started by: Stranzini on February 27, 2006, 04:16:25 AM
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I think the musical instrument crafting is not very developed, and it could be fun both to develope the crafting possibilities and increase the variety of instruments available to the bards.
What we have now - as far as Sen can see anyway - is a crafting cycle that is rather repetitive: chimes, tambourine, harp, guitar, violin, change wood, rinse and repeat. The instruments do not seem to have tremendously interesting powers either - they don't look commensurate with the benefits that can be gotten from armor, belts, boots, and weapons especially with the various combinations of enchantments and enhancements available for weapons. I also notice hardly any bards actually using instruments except (a very few) as props...so they obviously don't think they are very useful.
Obviously we don't want the horn of summoning an eighteenth level barbarian fighter on Layonara. But there are surely some moderate items that could be fun to use and not out of line. We can stay low-.magic, even no-magic, and still recognize that music can be its own magic...it has certain powers to stimulate, cheer, persuade, seduce...
And...instruments can be made from many different materials. The crafting will be more stimulating if everything isn't a variation on a different wood plus spider silk.
(Continued)
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There are different families of instruments, made from different materials, and each of them should have a different sort of effect.
Violins, harps, guitars, mandolins...these are the wood instruments with strings that we make now. They generally make good instruments of accompaniment, and so affecting perform as they do is quite logical. This family is good for now...
Flutes. Some of the most basic and ancient instruments. Not good for accompanying but for playing melodies. Perfect for wandering bards as they are light and can go in a pocket or knapsack. Traditionally we think of flutes as being able to charm, seduce, distract...hmmm, doesn't that suggest some possible benefits? Perhaps the flutes could offer a limited use of charm person (or animal perhaps for the wooden ones and person for the metal ones?) Perhaps sleep for the higher end flutes? Or else some positive benefit for the bard's party due to the better mood he puts them in?
Flutes can be made from many materials. The ocarina is a sort of roundish flute made from clay, originally used by pre-columbian peoples in central america. That would make a great beginning level craftable item, an ocarina. All you need really is clay, and a stick for making the right holes (perhaps there's something in my carpenter's kit that would do the job). Flutes can also be made of wood, so we can have a series of the four wood flutes as well. Wooden flutes tend to be more precise in their tuning, so perhaps their benefits will exceed the ocarina. Wood flutes may be made with or without keys...perhaps ours would be without in order to leave the place open for: metal flutes...silver and platinum are materials that are used in the real world for making high end flutes. Mithril might be good for making flutes too, I suppose. These flutes will have key works - a big pile of gears and springs and wire from the tinker would do the job perfectly I think. Silver, platinum and mithril flutes might have some very nice benefit associated with them as these will not be easy to get at all. An ocarina or wood flute would weigh a pound perhaps - thus a good instrument for a weak person to carry around. The metal flutes perhaps two pounds but they're not so heavy either, they're mostly air with the metal outside...
Trumpets, bugles, cornets and the like. These instruments were often used on the field of battle and are associated with stirring people up, aggression, war, signaling. Hmmm, sounds useful. They could confer some additional melee benefits perhaps on the bard's party members. Perhaps a group defensive bonus coming from the coordination given to the army by the trumpet - seems very logical to me. Or some other sort of morale bonus. A good blast from a sackbut in the ear might have an effect of stunning an enemy...
Copper and bronze are very good materials for this family, silver or gold would actually be very nice as well. And mithril can have any properties we say it has, so mithril is perfectly fine too. Iron would actually probably be less valuable than copper or brass for a musical instrument if we want to be realistic. In their original form, members of this family do not have gears or mechanisms, they are just limited in the number of notes they can play...but for the battlefield this is not a big problem. We could have a few instruments: the trumpet, requires a modest amount of metal, about the same quantity as a medium sized shield should be right. The sackbut (because it has a great name) is an ancestor of the trombone. Because it has a slide it can play more notes, which maybe means that it has more interesting powers, but it will require more metal to make one of these - about three times as much metal as the trumpet would be right. The cornet and the bugle are variations on the trumpet, if we want to have different choices of powers we could have them as well. These instruments are much heavier...trumpets and the like should weigh about as much as a sword, and sackbuts perhaps like one of the bigger two hand weapons.
A chromatic trumpet would be a trumpet with gears and pistons (thank you mr tinker) added to it. This instrument can play all the notes - so he would have more powers I should think.
Hmmm...but given the way the dwarfs talk, perhaps they would use bagpipes instead of trumpets to go to war. Bagpipes are ancient instruments too. The bag would need to come from an animal skin, by way of the tailor (it should be turned into leather I think). A big animal - a badger won't do. Perhaps different animals to get different levels of the instrument - a deer for the basic instrument, a cougar and a lion (since we know they make good bags) for higher levels...and maybe a malar for a super instrument. The bagpipe has a double reed inside and several different tubes - the tubes could be made from a little bit of wood - one log should have enough (different kinds at different levels I guess). What can I make the reed from? Its not very realistic but I've always wanted to be able to do something with a cockatrice feather, perhaps its unusually stiff for a feather and two of them would work? I cant think of anything else that I've seen around on Layo that looks like a reed...unless we add harvestable reed plants that grow in a swamp or by the lake somewhere. Or I may have overlooked something out there we have already that would be reasonable. Real reeds are made from ten foot tall cane plants that grow particularly around the Mediterannean and other places. A bit of beeswax might be good too, to seal the joints (we could throw this in the flutes too if we want). A bagpipe ought to weigh around five pounds I suppose. And I believe the original purpose of the bagpipe (and it still has that effect on me) was to strike fear into the hearts of the opponents...which is a property we could reasonably propose for it to have I think. Enemies within some range must save for fear. Better levels of bagpipes should have a longer range of effect, stronger save required, or longer duration.
Silool wanted a dulcimer. A dulcimer is a hammered string instrument. This is a large family of traditional instruments, particularly in the middle east - zither, etc. If you are going to hammer on strings, you would not make them out of spider silk, you would use metal strings. Metal wire from the tinker sounds close enough to me. You'd need a lot. 24 strings sounds like a minimum value to me, mounted in a wooden case. Different metals for different levels of the instrument. Copper, bronze, iron (ok steel close enough), platinum, mithril, adamantium all sound useable. This is more of a concert instrument than a battlefield instrument, so its effect should correspond somehow...This beast will be heavy, let's say ten pounds. You really have to want it to carry it around with you.
A virginal is another nice-sounding instrument. Its a keyboard instrument, it would also use the wood case and the metal strings like the dulcimer, just has a key mechanism instead of directly hammering on the strings. Its also somewhat portable - ten pounds let's say. For the keys, the ideal is ivory...I haven't seen any ivory yet but we could maybe have some on some creature somewhere? Otherwise, you could just use wood, it just doesn't have the class that's all.
OK, I think that's enough to start with. Is there enough ideas here to beef up the instruments some? Please?
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Oh and by the way, in the real world you have to learn to play an instrument.
People can play multiple instruments, at least as good as your average bard is going to do...but they have to learn each of them.
Its not really very different from learning to use your weapon, and it could follow the same logic and game mechanics...there could be an expertise feat for each instrument type, if you don't take it your playing of that instrument will be possible but at a significant handicap. It would be for a type - that is if you can play a silver flute you can also play a platinum flute. But knowing how to play the flute does not help much at all if you try to play a trumpet.
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These are all very cool and thought out suggestions, I gather CNR to help Silool in her instrument making, and it, right now, IS pretty repetitive.
I can't make any instruments, but would love to learn to play one, (play a jamming alto sax in real life)!!
Curtis
(Jeff)
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Stranzini - 2/27/2006 4:16 AM I think the musical instrument crafting is not very developed, and it could be fun both to develope the crafting possibilities and increase the variety of instruments available to the bards. What we have now - as far as Sen can see anyway - is a crafting cycle that is rather repetitive: chimes, tambourine, harp, guitar, violin, change wood, rinse and repeat. The instruments do not seem to have tremendously interesting powers either - they don't look commensurate with the benefits that can be gotten from armor, belts, boots, and weapons especially with the various combinations of enchantments and enhancements available for weapons. I also notice hardly any bards actually using instruments except (a very few) as props...so they obviously don't think they are very useful. Obviously we don't want the horn of summoning an eighteenth level barbarian fighter on Layonara. But there are surely some moderate items that could be fun to use and not out of line. We can stay low-.magic, even no-magic, and still recognize that music can be its own magic...it has certain powers to stimulate, cheer, persuade, seduce... And...instruments can be made from many different materials. The crafting will be more stimulating if everything isn't a variation on a different wood plus spider silk.
A bard can charm monsters and people alike, strike fear into the hearts of enemies or strengthen those of their allies. These things are not granted by a magic flute or harp. Instruments are tools that aid talents already there, with some more rare and magical exceptions. I fully agree with the spirit of this post, but think that if you would like to remind people that music is a form of magic, creating a host of magical instruments is going the wrong way with it. In my opinion, it takes away from a bard's actual abilities, giving them to anyone who can hold the instrument... and anyone can hold an instrument, or even be a skilled musician; however, it is the bard who can do all of these things with their performance already. (For example, Acacea can charm people and monsters with or without her flute.) I would like to see more instruments added for roleplay and variety, certainly (and the ones above are well thought out), but I would rather they not all have some kind of magic power (even cantrips), unless they were a result of, say, both infusing (or enchanting, whatever covers that) and instrument crafting. If they were kept to instrument crafting only, I'd suggest having an advanced bench like the other crafts have...but really I would like to see more added for roleplay reasons than giving them all special abilities. Waving the Pro-Talent and Anti-Crutch flags simultaneously, - Acacea
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@acacea. I tend to agree with what you are saying, the items should just enhance things that one can already perform really well. We need more for RP and such. Basically I wish we could also add new 'songs/music' etc. that were played out of different instruments but not in a magical sort of way... sort of what you are talking about.
SWG has a really neat bar system where the entertainers (singers, bards etc.) could play on stage and it gave bonuses and healed during that time... but from what I understand the instrument didn't matter overly, it was the talent of the character.
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It would be really cool if when you perform the music coming from your speakers varied with results. For instance if you sing like a half giant you get Bob Dylan music and if you sing really well you get the 3 tenors or some such like that. Might be even easier with the instrumental you could vary from the Boston Symphony for good results to the local junior high for bad results. I don't know how hard it would be to program and the I think the thrill might fade with time, but the first time Tim sings and I hear Bob Dylan, I promise you I will be laughing so hard that tears run down my face.
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Look for new instrument crafting options in the semi-near future! There's something thats been in the works for quite a while that with luck will be available in the next update or two or three.
-TV
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Pyyran playing a flute would make me happy inside; let's hear it for flutes!
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Stranzini - 2/27/2006 8:05 AM
Hmmm...but given the way the dwarfs talk, perhaps they would use bagpipes instead of trumpets to go to war.
I think of drums.
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Personally I wouldn't care if the new instrument types had different bonuses to than those of the existing instruments or not. I'd just like the option to carry different types of instruments available for RP purposes. My character Lyle, if possible, would prefer to play a pan-flute, or even a flute or picolo. As is, all the instruments we've got so far are pretty much stringed instruments, except the chimes which would fall more under precussion. I think some smaller drums, and a few woodwinds would be great, also one or two horns from the brass family of instruments would be nice as well.
I'm pretty sure I've even seen the flute as an equipeable fashion accessory in one of the other NWN modules before finding my home here on Layonara, so some of the item models may already be out there for our use to save on some of the developmental work.
Anyway, let's not see the idea of new instruments die.
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Chimes actually are the pan-flutes, strangely enough. ;)
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I use the chimes as the pan flute. :)
As for instruments, I'd love it if there were some bagpipes.
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Well, the problem with most of these (admittedly fun) ideas is that they involve new model creation, whereas all the other instruments are adapted from their CEP models. Lots 'o work. If Talan says they are working on it, it may come to pass... but otherwise, best be working up the .erfs yourselves to submit to the team for consideration. (I would if I could, but I have no talent in such things.)
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darkstorme - 7/26/2006 7:35 PM Well, the problem with most of these (admittedly fun) ideas is that they involve new model creation, whereas all the other instruments are adapted from their CEP models. Lots 'o work. If Talan says they are working on it, it may come to pass... but otherwise, best be working up the .erfs yourselves to submit to the team for consideration. (I would if I could, but I have no talent in such things.)
The new instrument things (unfortunately) don't include any new holdables. They do include some new art that some of you may have already seen IG at this point.
The reason they aren't yet available to craft is that the method of entering recipes into the game since the method of storing recipes was changed is rather onerous. The change brough a huge performance increase though in terms of lag decrese and server stability, the downside was we have had this period where we haven't been able to get any new recipes IG until some auto recipe injector utils are worked up. Just felt I had to give at least some explanation of why I said they were coming in soon in february and they're still not entirely available now.
With that said, there are a bunch of new CNR items that are in the world now for this series of items and another (that I shant mention for purposes of keeping you in suspense.) So, if you find something weird that looks like it might be CNR (i.e. has no purpose otherwise) hang on to it and imagine what you could make with it. I hope we'll be able to get the recipe insertion running smoothly soon too (with that said, I don't do, or know DBs well enough to help out with this and the people that we have that do DBs are the ones that are and have been bogged down with other stuff for a good while like, regular server updates, module management and lore just to name a few.)
In conclusion, thank you for your patience! Oh, and if you see some of the beautiful new art I hinted at above, give Lalaith a pat on the back! She is sensative and needs encouragement like that *nod nod*
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Wasn't sure where to post this question and this thread seemed to make as much sense as anything. My dwarf Dalan is a wood crafer but not a bard. I am trying to figure out why only a bard can make a musical instrument. Surely many instruments are made by people that can't play the instrument. I like the idea of him being able to craft a lovely wooden instrument that could bring joy to the population even if he could never use it himself. I mean he can make arrows for instance that are above his level to use. I was just wondering the rational behind requireing all instruments to be made by bards only. Thanks for any information you can provide on this.
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Well I believe it's a balancing thing...but also, while someone might be able to make an instrument, they might not be able to tune it, and all the musical instruments give bonuses to Perform while held, which is primarily a Bard skill. As such, some random dwarven woodworker would probably lack the nuance and ear to properly tune an instrument to achieve the proper effect.
The exception to the Perform bonus are the 4 horns mentioned above, but even so, their tones and such enable their magical abilities.
At least, that's the theory I believe. It may also be a balancing issue, which means sometimes we just have to do some things to keep them even, even if those things don't always make complete realistic sense.
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As far as I know, and I may be wrong, but we do not limit instrument making to bards... don't think we do at least.
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We do, actually, L. Music Instrument crafting is one of the VERY few crafts Pyyran hasn't at least dabbled in. (The other four are Enchanting, Infusing, Weapon Crafting and Armor Crafting, due to spell requirements and weapon proficiencies respectively.)
One of the requirements for each recipie is "Class: Bard." While Pyyran can get past the UMD on the Tuning fork for that... It doesn't work so well on the crafting station.
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*puts the task of rethinking insturment making in the back of his mind* Thanks Stephen, I will think about this some more.
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Good luck...lots of cobwebs and miscellaneous knick-knacks in the back of his mind these days. ;)
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hehe. true true :)
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I'm not purchasing an instrument to enhance my abilities from someone who cannot play. :)
I'm of two minds in this--one, that you don't need to be a bard to have musical talent. If you've got musical talent as well as crafting talent, then surely there is no reason why you could not craft one. That doesn't mean everyone has it though, and if you're not going by the bard class, what do you go by? You could say charisma... but that isn't the same.
Perform seems the obvious answer, rather than doing it by class. You could also open up perform as a class skill for everyone. Why? It's utterly useless to them. Does. Nothing. I hate seeing people forced to make checks for an action anyone is capable of, with a skill only a single class may take. Investing points in it would -only- serve as an RP dump of skill points with no mechanical reward, so if someone wants to represent a talent with some useless points, that's fine with me (and I play a bard). I think most people are so pressed for skills that there would be only a few who really made use of that.
The other half of the mind is pointing out that a bard is no mere musician, and a bard crafted instrument is often more than a carved piece of wood with a good sound. In this case, it IS bard specific, and no matter how nicely someone can whistle, it won't have the magical properties that a bard's would.
So... if we could have some distinction between instruments that required a true bard's skill whose results showed that, and masterwork mundane ones, then that would be good. If we can't have that distinction, then I think I prefer bard only.
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Just wanted to state that it is not a big deal to me either way. It just seemed like one area where could create without it being a weapon. Furniture is that way but so far it appears it is much cheaper to buy from the funiture store then create/craft it. The lens price is much higher then what you can purchase the item for based on the few items I have crafted. Anyway please don't spend a lot of time on this issue on my behalf. Thanks
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Stradaveri, by all accounts, was only a passable player, no virtuoso. Mozart, Beethoven, and Paganini wouldn't know how to build a violin if you put them in a workshop and let them have at it. I've never seen any reason why the craft was restricted to Class: Bard. It'd be a combination of DEX, WIS, and CHA, I suspect, especially since Listen is a Wisdom-based skill.
The real skill required by a musical instrument designer would be Appreciate, I think, rather than Perform. They'd have to hear the subharmonics of strings, hear imperfections in a sound board, sense when the varnish is too thick - none of these require the ability to perform spectacularly, they just require remarkable aural and tactile acuity. As there's no Appreciate, a combination, perhaps, of Appraise and the above stats might be used in its place. Or just the base stats. Regardless, the dominance of the Bard in instrument crafting ought to see its end. *has contributed his two coppers, dives back into his calc book*
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Right...that's realistic, but as it currently stands, the crafting system does not support skill checks at this time. So just saying, "Oh, make it depend on listen and this and that" sounds easy, but it's really an extension to the system that may or may not be trivial.
In approximation of realism, we instead are using the Bard class to roll all those things up into one neat package, which the crafting system does support.
But again, this isn't about musical instruments....this is about musical instruments which have tangible effects besides just sounding good. In the hands of bards, these things give extra inspiration, extra HPs and whatever else may be dependent upon a Bard's Perform skill.
Or at least, I think that's the theory. :)
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Here there be rambling... (6am so warning, super-long post)[/i] It was. Essentially, I also see no real reason why a plain instrument can't be made by any class, because one doesn't need to have Class:Bard in order to have any dealings or understandings of music. However as with any other craft, they shouldn't all BE mundane plain ones that any crafter can toss up, no matter how good their ear is. We can say, "but let's face it, the instruments are not stellar and there's nothing exceptional that should make it limited to bards," except that's kind of what the original post was about--the instruments sucking and needing some spicing up. ;) The reason I said perform (and yes I know since skills aren't doable that it's moot) is because it's something you have to invest in, and is associated with bardic ability in NWN. Without getting into a long argument about it, I feel appraise and listen are not perfect fits, in the same way that perform was not a perfect fit. It's already been agreed that you don't need to be a bard to hold an instrument. Poof. Now any class can use one. I even think perform should be opened up for people who want to waste their skills, to represent a technical ability. I agree again that the actual physical crafting of an instrument could technically be done by anyone with the appropriate skills and abilities, and that really the actual creation of it lies more within other crafts...there aren't that many bards even fond of the manual labor involved! I do not agree, though, that bards shouldn't have an edge or dominance with certain aspects of it, or that the craft as it is now should be opened up if there is no way of making it dependent on something people actually have to invest something in. As if there aren't enough people with fifty thousand crafts or ones where someone is leveled in it within a few days...No thanks. If it's not something you are assumed to be able to do by default, I'm not going to want to give it to you for free. Invest or suck at it. The difference is merely that I'm willing to let anyone try. The other obvious one is that while nice sounding instruments can be made by anyone, anything with a magical property that isn't specifically from whatever rare ingredient should be hands-off. But... as far as other ways to do it go...I think instrument crafting could actually be broken without much fuss to fall into the other crafts, except for the skills required. Despite that, I would rather have strictly mundane craftable instruments by whomever capable, and then allow the ability of a bard to take a completed one another few steps further, perhaps with enchantment or infusing. Something that leaves the magical properties of an instrument to the bard and lets any craftsmen make the pretty sounding one, as far I am concerned. (Of course I also think such instruments should be rare, so I'm apparently never happy ;) ) "Oh but other people use the Harmony, maybe a charismatic sorceror could do it!" This is another case where I am again not really happy with it unless it is something you can actually select and be stuck with. If you don't do it that way until there is a perk in doing so, I'm not in favor of assuming everyone does...Not to mention that their talents lie in different areas. If nothing else, the current craft could stay in place, the current instruments be opened to all, and others added that were bard only. Some kind of compromise. You can keep the perform bonuses and even the spell slots (which are usually detrimental anyway), as those are merely examples of a bard having his abilities enhanced by a well-made but non-magical instrument. Oldbear: It's not so much a great deal of work on one person's behalf as it is several people who like things to make sense in the world, and will leap all over something that doesn't at the first opportunity, arguing (somewhat) happily until something is reached...not that that means it will be changed--often it is not, but at least we then agree on what we would like to do if we ever got the chance. :P
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In the real world, being a good maker of instruments and being a good player of instruments are mutually exclusive.
It takes very different skill sets and very different application all life long of those skill sets.
Fine instrument makers will usually know how to play the instruments they make at a basic level, but they will defer to players to really test and refine them, and when you buy a high end instrument you work together with the maker or a skilled repairman to get it just the way you want it.
This is presumably what bugs oldbear, and it bugged me at the beginning too.
But some things have to be simplified to make a game, and I kind of think we can all just live with the bard rule for instrument crafting so as not to complicate our developers' lives.
There's a whole lot of stuff they could work on that would enhance our game pleasure more - like new instruments, even...
Note that you don't have to be a good bard to be as good as you want to be at instrument crafting, there is no level check as far as I know. As long as you have one level in bard (and server rules say, eventually five as time goes by), after that it's a question of your application to developing the crafting. So, that's not so different from saying the instrument crafter knows about music and knows how to play the instruments he makes, just isnt a virtuoso. But you do have to be serious enough about this craft to define your character around it, and that doesn't seem like a bad thing - I'm not quite sure what Acacea was saying there but I'm thinking maybe that's it?
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I think there's a harp out there that one can enchant with infusing. I haven't come across it yet, But I'll look into it.
Farros has been getting into music crafting in a big way, and I totally understand where this is coming from. It gets kind of annoying when every time you unequip an instrument that you lose your spells for that level, so what I have done meanwhile is modified a violin bow to look like a guitar, that way I can whip it out in town all I like, without suddenly facing the prospect of being out of spells I never even cast. It's a good tip for if you just want an RP instrument vs a bonus spell one.
Also, enchanting and infusing would be good venues to take instruments to the next level. It explains why people can pick them up and use special powers; because it's enchanted/infused, thats why. Some ideas off the top of my head...
Pan Pipes of Beguiling: Casts confusion
Harp of Lullabyes: Sleep
Chimes of Infiltration: Knock (and a decent lvl knock too, else it'll never get use on our DCs)
Fiddle of Fury: Blood Frenzy and war cry
Fiddle of Fire: Combust and Fire Arrow
Guitar of El Kabong: has sneak attack or bludgeoning dmg on it so you can fight with it like Honkey Tonk Man
Pipes of the Tempest: Gust of wind and possibly take to air so people can "warp" off cliffs like Link
Lyre of Building: Summons clay golems
Drums of Panic: fear and bane (though technically its a tamborine)
Tamborine of Annoyance: Blind/Deaf from those hideous hippie campfire songs
Chimes of Silence: yeah... silence
Pipes of the Satyr: High lvl one that does both sleep and confusion, per the satyr of the Silent Watch
6 Strings of Madness: Mind fog and confusion
Harp of the Hells: summons specifically imps and hellhounds
etc etc... you get the picture. Rather than uses/day it might also be better to make them have charges. That way we can keep the market pumping for them. Currently NOBODY seems to be in the market for an instrument... the uncultured heathens!
Ah yes, it'd also be funny to have a magical box which spawns a piano on the battlefield. We could make it work akin to the Flag Rally script so that party members who get near the bard's ivories feel a little boost.
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All right, as always I am completely unsure of how to approach this subject. However I have my own small series of suggestions to make.
Bard Items firstly lose the bonus spells per day, because of how the bard class is they are not useful and it looks absolutely asinine to carry around those items for hours. This is just Bioware Mechanics, no ones fault just how the game works. When you de-equip an item that gives bonus spells per day as a sorc or bard you simply lose memorized spells. As the instruments having them isn't really a bug, Forsettii and I having discussed this initially before the Bioware bug was realized, this is more of a re-balancing request with an explanation as to why.
Instruments that unleash spells as though they were, a big nice sounding wand. Now while I like this idea in some levels, I'm somewhat leery about it for two reasons. The first and primary reason would be the simple effect that these items will have a high value, low worth making them loved by the pawnshop. The reason for this is that ultimately you will be selecting spells that work off their base DC's, 10+spell level (not caster level remember). Meaning by the time you acquire these items and are able to use them, they will be very much ineffective against what you would use them against. Alternatively you can lean towards non offence spells or those without DC's, which has it's own problems that throw off balance think 'big potion of might'. Now before this becomes a 35 page lecture on the pros and cons to this, lets just remember 'we have had this discussion before' and no doubt will have it again, and again so this time lets keep it short. We know the pros and cons.
However Layonara does have a new innovation which hasn't had the pro's and con's explained back and forth by parties as suggested by Lonnarin here the unit flag of might style. However instead of something quite so, uhm colorful as the grand piano (most bards can't carry one around after all), perhaps a item power use that causes a special song effect by the player that is enhanced by the persons perform.
In Example (stop reading here if you are already bored of me)
Jimmy The Fighter picks up Oak Pipes of Haunting and has it identified by Fizzle-Pop the Wizard whom tells him if he plays it his enemies may run in fear.
So the next day Jimmy the fighter is fighting orcs, and has to run because he is alone and the orcs are stronger then him. As he runs away digging through his belt for his potion he remembers 'Ahah Fizzle-Pop said if I played this my enemies would run away!' so he plays the instrument.
Jimmy The Fighter freezes in place and is informed by the server status screen that he is playing Pipes of Haunting and cannot move for 30 seconds. All enemies within and entering the radius of effect will be subject to a fear save. DC = 2(oak)+0(Bard levels)+0(Perform/5) total 2 for 60 seconds. And the pipes lose one charge of their two, as they are oak.
Well Jimmy is Lucky all the orcs happen to have 0 will saves and roll 1's.
So they run away and he lives. He notes that he isn't a very good player and also notes that the Pipes of Haunting look somewhat deteriorated and could probably only take another use.
There is one, big, massive, hideous problem with this though. This goes beyond that it is a bit of a headache to script.
Ozymandias Picks up 'Harp of Momento Mori' in some manner which won't be bothered with here. He knows what it does, when he plays it everything he wants dead may die from the soul torturing melody. So he sticks it in his pack 100% confident he will never use it because he hates using charged item which he suspects it has 4 of.
To bad Ozy, the universe just doesn't like you and neither does your creator today, something big, ugly and with true sight is going to splatter you. Enjoy the bindstone! Oh your running? Ok, you run, its got haste... Yep still going to splatter, oh wait your going to play the harp.
Same message as before, your playing and anything that enters the radius will be subjected to a save vs death.
DC = 4(Harp)+31(Bard Levels)+17(80 perform though I don't think it is quite that high I'm not in game to check) total DC 52
Monsters go splat. If you would rather confusion or anything else.
I don't think I need to tell you what is wrong with this.
Lets drop the perform from the equation, 35 which is pretty impressive but it nullifies the point of having skill. So lets drop the bard levels and go straight to perform. Not as good as with bard levels but if the divider was set right, something I leave up to you, IE Perform/4. It could prove very useful to bards/skalds and anyone whom chose to take points in perform if the skill was opened up: Which isn't hard if I remember the 2da's correctly.
In closing:
Bard Spell Loss from Instruments. No one’s fault just how the game works but it can be fixed and if your messing with them anyway why not?
Bard Instrument’s as the new wands. Well there are some hardcode problems with this as well. With some effort though it could work out well, the real trick is making certain the recopies for an item are not to hard or to easy to craft for what your getting. That done right and I can see it being a great addition.
Bard Instruments: Bard’s as portable, PC flags!
The big issue is, how powerful do you make it? As I pointed out above my first suggestion is obviously broken but could be salvaged if balanced correctly. Unfortunately unless you decide to use set DC’s for each instrument, this will be a real headache to code instead of just boring, not to mention a level 1 bard is as good as a level 30 bard. You could of course always work with the stat buff method. I remember hearing concerns about there being already more then enough methods to boost party member stats which may make this moot.
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Why not just have them give a bonus to Bardsong? If that's possible... If not, just bonuses to Perform.
Perhaps bonus bardsong feats on higher-end items... Extra Music, Lingering Song, Curse Song...
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How about a portable piano of Wiley Coyote smashing? +10 vs. Talan's avatar!
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 10/29/2006 3:30 AM
Why not just have them give a bonus to Bardsong? If that's possible... If not, just bonuses to Perform.
Perhaps bonus bardsong feats on higher-end items... Extra Music, Lingering Song, Curse Song...
I would love to have, say, a guitar that doesn't affect spell slots at all, but gives a bonus to Perform.
Also, Lingering Song is a brilliant, wonderful feat that I didn't properly appreciate way back when I first started playing because all I used was Curse Song and it meant I had to wait another five rounds before causing some more sonic damage... AND, I think it would be awesome to maybe have Curse Song as a bonus feat on some kind of war drum, perhaps. I know those things would sap my fighting spirit, if I had any...