The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Diamondedge on March 09, 2006, 03:29:36 AM
-
I have noticed, very recently with my playing on Layonara, an influx of evil-wanabes. Those people that put dark, black, scary clothes on and growl and glare and yell and scream at all those around them. Exclusion here is Derrick. We love that teddy bear of a man! :P Anyways, I think that the people that are trying to RP their way into an evil allignment need a bit of... resource-help. I have gone over this problem with people in my D&D group over and over and over, but it doesn't seem to sink into their heads. Evil does not mean rampant murder, nor does it mean not helping those in need, nor does it mean insulting people in broad daylight, worshipping evil, heathen gods in the town street, sacrificing people in front of large audiences, etc etc, and so forth. And since my CN thread seems to have disappeared into the sands of time, I think it's high time I write up another under-appreciated article on how to RP allignment effectively. :) Thus, without much further delay... [SIZE=16]Diamondedge's Guide to Villainy![/SIZE] Evil is Deep First off, characters do not just wake up and decide they're going to put people to the sword rather randomly. They are not just born with the terrible thoughts of wreaking havoc, causing chaos, and destroying all living things for the greater glory of whatever. They do not decide one day that they don't want to play by the rules anymore, and they do not suddenly decide that they're just going to abandon honour completely. Evil needs a reason to exist, and it is usually a form of lashing out due to some form of trauma in a character's life. Perhaps their family was murdered, and they were forced to watch. Revenge turned into cold, murderous contempt for anyone that was happy, because why should the Gods gift person A with a happy family life after so brutally taking away person B's happy family life? Influence of other characters, people, or deities is another sure thing. Corath, for instance, likes followers. However, don't take this as "Corath says to kill, so I kill." There needs to be a reason to follow Corath, too. And it's usually either temptation that does the trick. Sometimes an evil god might offer a character a chance to deal with the wrongs that have been done to them in a way that is far more satisfying than what a goodly god might offer. Solace in the fact that the souls of the deceased have moved on to a better place does not always ease the heart.
Anyways, basically, evil needs a reason.
Evil Likes to Hide
In a land of goodly values and such, where paladins openly walk the streets bravely, high upon their mounts, making all the citizens feel safe and happy, evil does not want to be seen. More wicked and terrifying is the thought of a blackguard posing in the streets as a Paladin, wearing a suit of gold and silver armor and a flowing, royal blue cape, than the idea of a dark-armor wearing, wicked man who's very presence is unnerving. This is because Paladins need to concentrate for only two rounds to realize that there is evil that needs to be smote.
Evil hangs out in alleys, hides in sewers, cabals in private locales, wears normal, perhaps even stately clothing, and keeps quiet to itself, perhaps even plays along with the good bit, while it exists in lands alongside paladins. Evil strikes from the shadows and retreats immediately. Evil does not walk into the square of town and start insulting people and turning them away while in a good land like Hlint, unless there is already a large amount of discimination against the people being insulted as it is. An example of this is drow. Nobody should be trusting them because of the wicked, evil, sinful reputation of drow in general. Thus, an evil man could get away with saying "Get out of town, wicked, vile creature!" and nobody would really question his morals, so much as agree heartily.
In short, Evil does not make it's presence openly known in good lands, and rather tries to blend in. I don't think Sinthar Bloodstone's agents walk around in Hlint openly, although I'm almost positive they're there, somewhere, spying on the goodly people of Mistone.
Villains do NOT triumph
Villains are meant to lose. If you play an evil character, expect to be foiled again and again. This is simply how the world works. Evil might get it's victories here and there, but ultimately, good will always come out on top. There are several reasons for this; evil does not generally ally itself with anyone, and if it does, it only allies itself until the usefulness of the alliance is used up. Good, on the other hand, will ally itself on a broad scale if it means taking down villains.
In Synopsis
Basically, brash scumbags that say "Praise be to Corath, may all you Hlints burn in the fiery pits of the second layer!" or "You stupid ugly fool, you are weak and deserve nothing but to die," or any form of insult, or those that openly declare themselves as evil... do not last. No evil really lasts, but especially not those ones.
Oh, and just to put down any arguements right here and now, No, evil cannot triumph, ever, and the only time it ever does is when the vast majority of people are apathetic to the concerns of the evil-doing. As such, Sinthar may indeed conquer the entire world, and we'll all have nobody to blame but ourselves, who go "Let's go hunting!" or "Let's go have a party" or "Let's go have a picnic!"
And now, I rest my case. Use this knowledge, my child, and excel in life.
-
ummm okay.... where is it?
Edit.
Wow thats deep and also quite true, well done.
-
Har, sorry. I pushed submit instead of preview. It is now viewable. Enjoy!
-
This site can help you in your evil ways
http://evil-guide.tripod.com/
-
I have noticed, very recently with my playing on Layonara, an influx of evil-wanabes. Those people that put dark, black, scary clothes on and growl and glare and yell and scream at all those around them. Exclusion here is Derrick. We love that teddy bear of a man!
Har! A dark, twisted, drunken, spikey, dual sword weilding, homicidal Teddy Bear. . . Har!
I don't wear dark clothes and growl and glare at people because I'm evil...
I do it because it's fun Har!
-
cappyra - 3/9/2006 1:15 PM Har! A dark, twisted, drunken, spikey, dual sword weilding, homicidal Teddy Bear. . . Har! I don't wear dark clothes and growl and glare at people because I'm evil... I do it because it's fun Har!
Aye and we love you for it :p
-
The best Evil people in Layo are the ones that we don't know are Evil......
"Those people that put dark, black, scary clothes on and growl and glare and yell and scream at all those around them..........rampant murder, not helping those in need, insulting people in broad daylight, worshipping evil heathen gods in the town street, sacrificing people in front of large audiences, etc etc, and so forth."[/i]
We should be granted PvP for the ones who think this is how Evil works on Layo. Because many of the above actions then force us to act out of character because our characters are not allowed to act as they should if not for server rules..... if the townsfolk didnt take the matter into their own hands first that is.
G-452
-
Very well written, and I agree with you. At first this is the way I played Caldiir, but over time I have learned, as has he learned, that openly insulthing those around him will gain him nothing. Besides, playing tricks with other players' minds is more fun than insulting them. For example, I was roleplaying Caldiir's clumbsy, eccentric disguise so well one day, that a player actually commented that my portrait was weird because I have a human mask on with a drow portrait. I was honored to have been considered good enough to fool someone into thinking that.
For more on playing evil characters, there is an article written by a PnP Drow player that can be found at the bottom of the page at this link: http://www.geocities.com/venoriksilinrul/RPingDrow.html
-
hmmm ... interesting!
Wearing dark scary clothes? Well, I see an awful lot of so-called good people wearing black clothes as well. Although I'm not evil, I do follow what I would call a dark path. Yes, I wear black! But, then I have always worn black, even in the early days of being a goody-two-shoes.
Growling, glaring and yelling? Funny enough, I have never been threatened at or yelled at my any evil person. Most try and keep to themselves. I have, however, been threatened by so-called good people.
As I have said, I am walking a darker path than I was, but ... as of yet I have performed no evil, nor spoken of performing any evil. I pretty much keep to myself and am indifferent to most people. I just try and walk by people as though I don't exist. Yet, lately, you would think I had become a mass-murderer or something. It is the so-called good people that want to cause the trouble and won't let people be. Even if they aren't evil!!!
Perhaps they should learn how to play good as well?
Do you need a reason to follow Corath? of course! But then you do for any god, or you should at least. People pick a deity and most don't really know why their character would choose that god. So it's not just evil people that need help.
Corath says kill, so I kill? Well, actually, if you were a true follower you would! He demands obedience from his followers and failure is not tolerated. So a true follower is at the whim of the priests/priestesses really. But then, how is this different to good? Paladins kill who they are told! Are the people you kill, innocent or deserving of death? Well, that is based on the viewpoint of your deity. How many thousands or millions of innocent deaths have been caused through history because of religeon?
Ultimately though, why play evil? Because it is fun and requires much more RP! Your character has to have a more in-depth bio or dev thread to get approved to even start moving that way. And, yes, you do need to show a reason your character is starting to turn evil and it happens over quite a long period of time.
You can't just point the finger at us evil-wannabes and say we need help! I see so much poor RP out there, but that is okay because they are good! So it doesn't matter!
-
Simply because I think it is very important (for future reasons) playing evil does not mean being a jerk or harrassing or griefing players. Nor does it mean PK'ing or ambushing anybody and everybody you see--that is called griefing and should never ever be tolerated.
Playing evil is doing things in the background and following evil/dark orders in a sesible way (IE. trying not to get caught--not doing stupid things in public to draw attention etc.). As soon as one is 'known' as evil socieity will have them (litterally back in the middle ages). So if one is ever allowed to play evil one must do it quiety and in the background, trying to never let people know just how evil they really are. Even Corath followers should not be stupid enough to slay people in the middle of other people, they would do it in a back alley--out of the way etc. They would not want to draw ire to the church because in the end their one act will make the church weaker if others see their 'evil' ways are done in public.
In essence, playing evil is to play smart, no pk'ing, no griefing, not drawing attention--and doing things in the background, while always keeping the bigger picture in mind (serving whatever larger goal the character may have -- be it temple or organization). One 'evil' act done at the wrong time can (and does) bring down organizations and temples--and that is just stupid--that is not playing evil, its stupid.
So....read in to that what you will... but IF (IF) Layonara ever allows evil to be reached easier than it does now those will be some of the key things we will look for.
-
oi oi oi, no need to get defensive, Typic. I think, for once, Diamond was trying to be helpful rather than a... you-know-what... at least, for the most part *snickers*
It is true that the RP of the relationship between good and evil is often a little, shall we say, shallow... and from both sides. RP is the mimic of life, and, well, in the lives of us that play this game, we don't have much in the way of truly evil people that we deal with. 99% of people are neutral range in real life, if you could even seriously define RL people using DnD terms. So we have little to base off of except what we read, or imagine, save for the select few of us who have lived through some severe personal tragedy beyond that of a close relative dying of cancer (which is tragedy enough to crush most of us, can you imagine worse? would you even want to?), which is something uncontrollable. Evil is the deliberate creation of tragedy, and great evil is tragedy on a wide scale (i.e. Crashing planes into the Twin Towers; the Holocaust). I would dare to say almost no one here has had first hand experience of such (actually saw the carnage of the Twin Towers or the Holocaust in person). Yet many of our characters have witnessed first-hand the carnage left in Blood's wake.
As simple as Diamond laid it out, RPing evil is extremely difficult (as has been stated), since you likely have no first hand example of it to base off of. And by that same token, RPing the relationship, the reactions, between good and evil is equally difficult. So, before we jump on poor RP on either side, realize that it's not something you can just read a book on a do well at. Like anything complicated and difficult, it will take much time and practice, and not everyone here is a 20 year veteran of acting or RP.
Discussions on the topics are always good, however, so long as they remain civil.
-
I think as well that charisma scores should play a part as well. For instance if you have an evilcharacter...a cleric perhaps, with a charisma score that is above average. He's not likely to be publically rude, offensive or off putting to other player characters. In fact he's probably going to be exactly the opposite. However...a person with very low charisma may exhibit these traits even if he's not evil :)
-
I think its actually against the rules to openly worship an evil god according the handbooks laws of layonara isn't it?
-
heh, how would that work? could you never speak of your diety?
-
steverimmer - 3/9/2006 2:56 PM I think as well that charisma scores should play a part as well. For instance if you have an evil character...a cleric perhaps, with a charisma score that is above average. He's not likely to be publically rude, offensive or off putting to other player characters. In fact he's probably going to be exactly the opposite. However...a person with very low charisma may exhibit these traits even if he's not evil :)
You know I'd like to see Cha played full stop...not saying that people don't but I am often amazed by how many Cha 10 people describe themselves as stunning or beautiful. Sorry, but at Cha 10..you ain't...your average.
Not that there is anything wrong with someone being a low Cha but very attractive and not a nice person or having a lack of people skills...It just needs to be obvious from their RP when you first meet them.
-
xXDenizeNXx - 3/9/2006 3:03 PM
I think its actually against the rules to openly worship an evil god according the handbooks laws of layonara isn't it?
A little discriminative i think this is,
My character worships what could be considered an evil god,
But she does it for a purpose, a purpose which is not evil.
I think that being evil and worshiping an "evil" god are two different things, it may be the start of going down a path to being evil, but saying you can not worship your diety as somebody else worships theres is a bit harsh.
-
"harsh" depends on the character. Some characters are harsh, and some are tolerant. It would be aweful boring if all were tolerant.
-
True say, but my point still stands i think.
-
DMOE - 3/9/2006 3:38 PM
You know I'd like to see Cha played full stop...not saying that people don't but I am often amazed by how many Cha 10 people describe themselves as stunning or beautiful. Sorry, but at Cha 10..you ain't...your average.
Actually, this is wrong ... you could be extremely beautiful, stunning in fact, but have no charisma. The attribute isn't particularly about the way you look, but the way you are perceieved and your ability to communicate and influence people.
And, yes, Moonlight is stunning! I picked the head because of it :P But she isn't a big communicator and usually just nods, giggles/chuckles or gives short replies. So she does have a low charisma in how she interacts. So some of us do try and rp the charisma, but it is hard to do and only realy comes to light in gm events, when Moonlight would fail miserably if she even tried.
-
weeee! Zan have a cha of 14 (and not from communicating ;) )
Anyway, this might have been said, but just because you wear black doesn mean you are evil or try acting spooky... It just makes excellent camuflage.
but about evil, I dont hope its going to be a trend, cause its very annyoing not to be able to play with people, because your own char is a total idealist, a bad side of RP if you ask me.
-
steverimmer - 3/9/2006 2:56 PM I think as well that charisma scores should play a part as well. For instance if you have an evil character...a cleric perhaps, with a charisma score that is above average. He's not likely to be publically rude, offensive or off putting to other player characters. In fact he's probably going to be exactly the opposite. However...a person with very low charisma may exhibit these traits even if he's not evil :)
As my char has a the charisma of 24 does that mean she'll be like the typical english gentleman but female... :P
-
Stunning... Define stunning...
Good looking for one person may not be that for another.
I have to agree with DMOE on that point. A cha 10 person is quite average after all.
typically_annoying's point of raising the "appearance factor" and decreasing "personality factor" in charisma might work, but it would be very strange. Like, for a cha 10 person to be stunning (say, cha 14), he/she would have the same amount of personal strength as a troll/badger/bear (cha 6). :P
-
typically_annoying - 3/9/2006 4:05 PM DMOE - 3/9/2006 3:38 PM You know I'd like to see Cha played full stop...not saying that people don't but I am often amazed by how many Cha 10 people describe themselves as stunning or beautiful. Sorry, but at Cha 10..you ain't...your average.
Actually, this is wrong ... you could be extremely beautiful, stunning in fact, but have no charisma. The attribute isn't particularly about the way you look, but the way you are perceieved and your ability to communicate and influence people. And, yes, Moonlight is stunning! I picked the head because of it :P But she isn't a big communicator and usually just nods, giggles/chuckles or gives short replies. So she does have a low charisma in how she interacts. So some of us do try and rp the charisma, but it is hard to do and only realy comes to light in gm events, when Moonlight would fail miserably if she even tried.
Er didn't the rest of my post go something like this....
Not that there is anything wrong with someone being a low Cha but very attractive and not a nice person or having a lack of people skills...It just needs to be obvious from their RP when you first meet them.
Which is in essence what you've just said?
I don't mind anyone dissagreeing with me...I encourage it but in this instance you actually agreed with me if only you'd not cut the rest of my post off.
And tell me about it...Ireth dates Jet for heavens sake!!
-
once again, there are so many different ways to play high and low charisma. there is no set standard. Charisma is the most subjective of attributes- the least straight-forward. It is partially looks, partially attitude, partially presence, partially oratory, etc.
Though, I would have to say, the odds of someone with a charisma of 10 or less looking "stunning" is quite low. And, to look "stunning" requires quite a bit of upkeep. Scratch that- A LOT of upkeep. So, slaying mosters on a consistent basis would do a severe dampening to those "stunning" looks. A character may start off handsome when they are young, but 5-10 years after major wars, blood and gore, etc., and they will be hardened and only a shadow of their former beauty.
-
As for the charisma attribute, I always found it to be the hardest attribute in D&D - it's not physical beauty, it's how one interacts with others.
The classic example is Hitler (there, I Godwin'd the whole thread), ugly guy but was able to create a war machine of earth shaking proportions.
As for players, I see it rather well played because it's hard to gauge it unless the player runs the character as such. Freldo's an 18 charisma and he manages to get noticed - always. Like him, hate him it doesn't matter, you'll eventually hear of him - that's what I see charisma as and that's how I play him.
Now, about how evil works, I see evil as a corruption of trust - an evil character is untrustworthy and deceitful. This works great in role playing because a good evil character would be a very likable guy until he decided it was time to turn against everyone.
Evil is exploiting weaknesses in others - trust and truth are things upon we build relations and corrupting these virtues (through lies and deceipt) are, IMVHO, the core of true evil.
Dark clothing and strange ways aren't a sign of malice, they're a fashion trend and way of life, true evil is corruption of hearts and minds... Hmmm... Where did I hear that before?
Anyway, I'd play a pretty good evil character if there was a need for a manipulatory and seductive character but chaotic good is where I'm the happiest.
-
miltonyorkcastle - 3/9/2006 5:48 AM
A character may start off handsome when they are young, but 5-10 years after major wars, blood and gore, etc., and they will be hardened and only a shadow of their former beauty.
It would be short minded to say that hardened chars only would be a shadow of themselves. First of all their traits would be the same, they would probaly even be more fit after combats, and they might get that specieal look by being hardened, something more inteligent and experienced instread of some unexperienced popgirl, who thinks everything is love and happiness, and just makes people annoyed. A rose is more stunning rising among scrub, than a rose that is cared for, planted in the best soil among hundreds of other roses.
-
SuperMunch - 3/9/2006 5:50 AM
Now, about how evil works, I see evil as a corruption of trust - an evil character is untrustworthy and deceitful. This works great in role playing because a good evil character would be a very likable guy until he decided it was time to turn against everyone.
that is being chaotic. CG can fool others as well, and dont mind keeping their word, but they do it for good (means a evil char cant trust a CG) Evil is when you uses others to further your own goals, no matter what would happen to others.
-
Niles09 - 3/9/2006 10:09 AM
but about evil, I dont hope its going to be a trend, cause its very annyoing not to be able to play with people, because your own char is a total idealist, a bad side of RP if you ask me.
Heh, speaking of having noone to play with...you should try playing a dark minded character. Especially a drow, because then you will know the true meaning of having noone to play with :)
-
Niles09, you're not wrong but I'm talking greater sense of evil, not role playing alignments.
Evil is just as hard do define as good is but one thing is very much true about evil - evil is misusing trust in the same way as good is putting trust to good use. This is subjective of course but stop to think about it - malignant tyranies (or what we call tyranies) are all about the misuse of trust.
Think of those you consider "evil" in real life, do they not betray the public's trust? Do they not betray your trust?
Edit: Forgot the about up there.
-
Niles, I said a "shadow of their former ~beauty~" Not life. I was refering to physical beauty. Not the whole person. By general standards, a scar-riddled, grim-faced war vet is not as pretty as the young recruit.
And after many wars, their traits, I would suggest, would ~not~ be the same. Scars, the sun, and age can completely change the face of a person. Not to mention ailments or injuries such as a missing rib or dislocated hip.
Now, their presence as a person may be much more impressive, despite their physical beauty being depressed. But that still won't change the loss of physical charm, rather it is a gain of other kinds of charm.
-
SuperMunch - 3/9/2006 6:18 AM
Niles09, you're not wrong but I'm talking greater sense of evil, not role playing alignments.
Evil is just as hard do define as good is but one thing is very much true about evil - evil is misusing trust in the same way as good is putting trust to good use. This is subjective of course but stop to think about it - malignant tyranies (or what we call tyranies) are all about the misuse of trust.
Think of those you consider "evil" in real life, do they not betray the public's trust? Do they not betray your trust?
and I would totally agree, I just said not only evil can take advantage of trust, so taking avantage of trust is chaotic, taking advantage of trust for your own sake and goals is evil, and most likely NE.
-
I agree with Diamond and Leanthar on playing evil. The most you can do is be involved in intrigues that change the world from behind the scenes, without anybody actually knowing what happened and who was behind this. An evil character won't ever be able to tell what he did to the open public nor will he be able to triumph as Diamond says.
I play Rufus as a well mannered man, he will usually reply kindly to most people and help with whatever they ask. On the outside he is a crafter and a necromancer, the latter is the one that usually attracts the most bad looks, but, necromancy is an official part of the church of Lucinda, so no problem there. So from the outside, there are really no clues that he is evil and black clothing does not count as a sign of being evil :)
Of course there are exceptions, like when Isilme really managed to anger Rufus to what he is almost never like.
But what I wanted to say is, being evil, however you hide it, always comes out. Like Rufus never said that he began worshipping Corath, but we have clerics to thank for spreading such things, so now Rufus sometimes says yes, if asked whether he worships Corath or not. Sometimes knowledge of some events spread and even such dumb things like "Your fellow secret guild member opens his mouth and gives your name out" things happen. So when trying to play evil, stay hidden for a long as you can, others will eventually find out and then you'll be wishing they never did that. So hopefully nobody gets any solid proof or Rufus will be hung :p
As for evil abusing trust, I'd have to agree only partially. A lawful person follows a code, be it his personal views of the world, his organisation's rules or some others. In reality many people who may be considered evil are very loyal to their friends, family, superiors etc. So we have to make a difference between LE NE and CE
-
*coughs* Under Minor Crimes of "The Law of Layonara"
- Worship of unrecognized deities determined to be evil or directly threatening to the continent
That would I believe, include deities such as, Corath, Pyrtechon, andBaraeon Ca'duz. You would however need a Mistone/Dregarian Scribe of Law to reaffirm that as fact.
As for "Charisma", I do agree somewhat what what everyone has said. I think it's a universal RP idea that in Fantasy worlds high "Charisma" governs speaking ability, looks, leadership skills, and social skills, as well as parts of the creative and artistic thinking patterns. The biggest problem is that "Charisma" is a very difficult thing to work out, because unlike "strength" which we all know governs strength, Charisma can influence nearly everything that is labled "RP".
I've just given it up as, "To each his or her, own." No point in me saying, "there are too many good-looking people on Layonara." Or, "everyone speaks too well." That's not going to solve anything, rather it will simply offend people and make me lots of enemies very fast. Rather I've chosen to make a concious effort to be aware of my Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores and play them accordingly.
My greatest accomplishments with the "questionable abilities" (as I call them), has been with my character Adrian. A fighter with 14 Intelliegnce, 10 Wisdom, and 10 Charisma, and I've given great thought to how I've chosen to play him. And that is, as I said, all I feel I can do. (It gets back to the "Define" True Neutral discussion... can't be done.)
And last on Evil characters. I agree with G-452. The best evil characters, won't let you know they're evil until their plan has come to fruitition. That's my opinion on PCs. But as it has been shown, that's not the case with many villain NPCs, characters is books, and in movies. If someone is playing an evil character, and their character is possibly not a "Sun Tzu" for strategy, perhaps he/she, will make a huge blunder and expose him/herself as evil before the correct time. *shrugs* If that happens, so be it. Where would the fun be if every evil character acted the same, was unknown, and was honestly that dangerous? ;)
I'm drawn to drow for a few reasons.
[list=1]
- The Chaos of their personalities.
- The rich history and RP that can come from them, simply because they're drow.
- The rejection I recieve from players. It's wonderful to see players actually RPing!
- Last, some of the best RP I have experianced and some of the best stories I've ever read have centered on evil characters, particularly drow. I want to be a part of that.
People are going to have different reasons for playing evil, and just because several are working towards it in a similar way doesn't mean they'll act the same once they get there. Love this thread by the way. Peace!
-
Speaking about CE NE and LE, ofcourse.. NE chars are in the players handbook (dnd) described as the most evil aligment cause they trick others and plan, so they would unlikely show their true self. LE as well, dont just chop people down on the street, and may just act a bit hard and coldly but you would need to know them to know them as evil.. as for CE they dont really exist in towns like Hlint cause they are unstable and kill people without thought, and thats why we cant play them, they wouldnt be able to live in a town or village openly.
-
Well, I didn't want to get into my future plans for Turor just yet, but it seems I have no choice but to explain exactly what I meant by all of it; I'm sorry, though, Typically_Annoying, if I happened to offend you somehow in my initial post. I don't really see how I could have, but I guess I must have to get you all defensive like that. :P
Yes, I started this thread to help people out with roleplaying darker characters because I have seen no less than four characters so far in Layonara who have in their description somewhere "Glares coldly at you, a murderous haze in his/her eyes" etc.
Evil is never obvious when it's surrounded by good. That would be suicidal. If you are obviously evil in the middle of an obviously good town, you're nailed to a post - not tied, ropes would be too good for you - and burned to cinders.
Here is a good example: Turor Sunderstone's corruption.
If you all remember, Turor was in the midst of creating a big ol' dwarven battalion with which to battle Sinthar, but then I mysteriously disappeared, and the plans never came to pass. My idea was that slowly, over the course of, say, six real-life months, I'd RP Turor becoming more and more corrupted by the vast powers at his hands. He's growing old, after all, and really wants to make a name for himself. Do his clan proud.
He'd start by xenophobically routing out all the nearby goblin tribes to wherever the headquarters was. He has a particular hatred for goblins, and if you read the "A Dwarf's Story" thread I have in the Character Development, the reasoning for that will be pretty self-explainatory. So he'd wipe the goblins out. But he would come into the realization that he had an impossibly difficult army at his command. So he'd persuade them to march on Orcs. And then Kobolds. And then whatever else, and the other dwarves would happily go along with it, no doubt, because they're making the world a better place, and killing hated enemies.
But then Turor would confront the dwarves and persuade them to attack the elves, because they're dirty, stinkin' bark-lickin' leaf-eaters, that hate dwarves, spit on 'em, grind the bearded folk into the dirt, etc etc. The dwarves would obviously be hesitant but Turor would goad them into it. So a civil war would errupt between the elves and the dwarves.
Of course, eventually Turor would be put to death, probably by a handful of dwarves and elves together that see the folly of the conflict.
Turor would have been corrupted by ambition and great power, but he wouldn't have come right out and said "Ach, leh's kell wot weh won' ter kell, laddehs, northin' kin stop oos!" He'd have went around it all by giving perfectly understandable reasons for the warring. Nobody would really suspect him of being evil until it was blatantly obvious. And then he'd pay for it.
That is what villainy is. Of course, Turor does openly insult pretty much whoever, because he's a grumpy old dwarf. Were he a human, or an elf, he likely wouldn't insult to many people.
And on the side-topic of charisma, there is a direct correlation between physical beauty and getting along well with others, having them like you, and drawing them to you. There are several 'areas' that Charisma finds itself within. Physical beauty, oral communication, hygiene and physical communication - Body language.
-
hehehe, someone was itching to spill the beans... now whatcha gonna do, Diamond? :P
-
Diamondedge - 3/9/2006 12:01 PM
Well, I didn't want to get into my future plans for Turor just yet
Hopefully they don't involve eating Derrick's puppy? ;)
-
charisma, intelligence and wisdom. The three amigos of DnD. If charisma were just about looks and looks alone then why can you build the stat? I don't see too many bueaty clinics or plastic surgeons on Layo Hehe. Like my Half Giant Dimmy, only has cha of like 7 or maybe 6 because he was pre stat law made, he is funny yes and even likable, but also he interupts folks, runs through people talking disrupting there conversation by asking to play hidey and hugging folks, like walks up to a Dark Elf and says hey you got black skin (good rp there too your char was like and what do you mean by that?) calls dwarves and halflings little or small mans, calls people sillies (thats the pot calling the kettle black) and any number of rude, non tactful, descriminatory and degrading remarks and yet folks just love him lol. My point is it is okay to get on the soap box and announce upon high that yeah people should RP charisma more or better, but the truth of the matter is that the mafority of you seem to want to keep this a fun based, family rated G rp server. Now if we all Rp'ed Charisma a bit better then we wouldn't have the live and let live fun based attitude now would we? You can disagree and say but my cha does this and that sure fine and also I like the Family based 'lets be nice to each other thing' i want my 10 yr old boy to be able to play in this environment in a couple yrs time.
Intelligence. Who here can honeslty say that they have a higher IQ then Einstein? so how does a epic level 40 wizard with like int 30 have a guide to rp by? You just got to do the best you can do with the tools god gave you. (One reason I don't play Mages. HeHe.)
Wisdom. Also like Int. Who here has the Wisdom of Ghandi, or a Tibetan Master Monk? Any hands? So ya again just have to do the best RP you can based on your perception.
Also would like to note that you can possess high scores in all three of these statistics and yet you still have to actively USE them. You can decide that saving your best friend from a burning inferno is not a wise move yet it could be the right move and I am sure he / she would appreciate it and thank you for it, or they may have low charisma and say "what took you so long?" *shrugs*
Wisdom, Charisma and Intelligence are in DnD as subjective as they are in RL, ya still gotta choose to do the wise thing , the intelligent thing and the charismatic thing. It's like I am sure Tony Robbins has cranky days, Ghandi did things at times that weren't wise but necessary and how many of us have seen intelligent people waste it?
So ya while the tips on Villany are great and thank you for them Diamond, i think its fair to say we come here to have fun and if abusing people in the street is your thing then whatever flotas ya boat eh but don't expect too many folks to jump up and help you grab ya corpse or do a quest eh hehe.
Peace
Den
-
Denizen:
A couple things I noticed and sorta agree with, yet also have conflicting opinions about are Wisdom and Intelligence. Well you see, I see Intelligence up to a certain point as reasoning ability. Two + Two = Four sorta stuff. But after a while, say after 18, it gets into memorization of Lore, understanding the facets of Magic, the Weave, Tactical thinking, alchemial formulas. You have to understand that Einstein had a different level of Technology to work with than people on Layonara. So while today 160 may be an amazing IQ for the "above average" person, transplanting someone from Layonara to here and there would be no comparing the two. Different types of intelligence.
As for wisdom, I believe that falls under reasoning as well. Eithcs, decision making, and the separation and clarification of information. Again to a certain point. If someone devoted his entire life to the workings of philosophy, I truly believe that any one of us could be a Ghandi, however I don't think that happens here and most characters with wisdom are Clerics and Druids. So although all of the above is probably governed by wisdom to a certain point (say 18), after that it becomes more, in my opinion. More like an internal connection with your beliefs. Most clerics will have natural 18 Wisdom at level 8 or level 12, and that's when they really start becoming powerful anyway. But again, wisdom in Layonara (to me) isn't the same as the wisdom of the Real World.
Again, everything works on a different level. If it worked on the same levels then 18 Strength would be impossible. (Who can run with 200 lbs on his back?!) People would be limited to 100hp. We would have a Massive Critical system that would include being shot through the eye and instantly killed. Intelligence would max out at 18. We'd have great thinkers be put under house arest or burned at the stake for innovative ideas and philosophies. And last, but not least, magic would not exist! No magic, cause it isn't real. But lets be thankful Layonara doesn't work like the real world. Lets not compair the 30+ Intelligence of a fully buffed Wizard to Einstein, and lets be glad he didn't live long enough to be confused and possibly freaked out by us DnD RP junkies! ;)
-
I agree 100% with alot of those comments Denizen.
Its incredibly hard to play characters built on charisma, intelligence, and wisdom. After all, when your character ends up smarter than you, its tough to roleplay him like that, and when you're character is more proper than you know how to be, again, it can be tough. Of course, you can always make things up to sound more intelligent and wise. That's probably one of the only ways to solve that.
And yeah, I have noticed a large amount of overly good-looking people. Not saying that's bad but getting back to what Cole says, its tough to always look good when you are running around stabbing ogres and raiding tombs. You get scars and other facial deformaties, and then you also end up with burns and frostbite from enemy mages.
That said, Charisma doesn't really reflect appearance. At all, I think. Jet is an example. He has a charisma of 8, but I think most people have decided he's fairly good looking. Could be from the head I chose, or from his strength. And frankly, I never really paid much attention to how Jet looks, beyond eye, hair, and skin color. People made up their minds on their own for that one. However, anyone who knows Jet knows that he is quiet and prefers not to talk, and he loses his temper fast. He also has a tendancy of wording things completely wrong at the completely wrong time.
Now, back to the topic at hand. The evil thing is interesting, as I have had no characters as of yet that I saw working towards evil. A number of people thought my bard was going evil just because he was a stubborn jerk, but he was far too apathetic to ever truly become evil.
Also, evil visual effects come to mind. People have refused to make them because they are "evil" and "unholy" but at the same time they are just a red glow. Red armor isn't illegal or unholy, or otherwise Jet would have been arrested ages ago, and what's so bad about a red glow? Now, mind you loads of people seem to have them, mixed with their black clothing and it makes for a dark and gloomy appearance. And frankly, if you are a simple minded commoner who sees someone dressed all in black robes with a glowy red sword you may get suspicious and distrustful of that person. Doesn't mean you can convict them of being evil and hang them on the spot, but it may mean that you feel uneasy about them.
And about the evil gods. Frankly, I don't think it matters what your reasons are for worshipping Corath. If you do, people will label you as evil. Sure, he governs necromancy but then again, Lucinda is the goddess of the entire weave, so a mage could equally choose either if they were a necromancer. People know Corathites as dark, secret, and evil and as such if you wander around brandishing his shield or saying that you may follow him, it will create reason for you to be labeled as evil. Just like if you bear a symbol of Toran, it will label you as being overly-rightous. Just like in the real world, people will associate followers of a specific diety with a stereotype. And if you choose to follow Corath and display it, you have it coming.
Lastly about villians never triumphing, there was actually an interesting story my dad showed me about Norse mythology in which they believed the opposite: Good could never truly triumph. So, yeah, for the most part I agree the villians will never win, just thought that tidbit was interesting.
-
Trying for a quick summary of the thousand topics in the thread... (You don't want to know how long it was, before.)
--You can improve the quality of roleplay and be "family friendly;" in fact I'm not sure what the two have to do with each other.
--The PCs are not the common, day to day NPCs we don't see in cities. They are the genius wizards. They are sorcerers who channel power through sheer force of will. They are the monks that can will their bodies to greater performance. Comparing attributes to those in "real life" makes little sense when most everything occurring in Layonara would be termed "impossible."
--No one is claiming that charisma is solely about physical beauty. That's not true. A charismatic general could be hideous, but be a great leader of men that inspires his followers. Saying, however, that it has nothing to do with appearance is blatantly false. I would flat out disagree that a person with a charisma of ten or below could be labelled "stunning," as "stunning" implies more than merely pretty. Stunning is head turning, people attracting, stance swaying. These things are the large part of what charisma is all about. If your character is wildly beautiful and alluring with a charisma of ten, they must have the hygiene of an ogre and the diplomacy of a spiked club.
--This thread was not intended (well, probably not intended) to harp on anyone who has a mean character or wears black; it was to point out that while it is completely possible for Evil to be Stupid and Obvious, Stupid and Obvious Evil does not live long. The only way Stupid Evil can prevail is with bigger muscles, and even then there is usually a Smart Evil pulling Stupid's strings. And it's extremely unlikely that an evil character will have the bigger muscles than all of the good characters here combined.
It's not meant as an insult to try and remind people of this as more start to head down darker paths, just an acknowledgement of a character type that is extremely difficult to play. The problem is not unique to this setting.
--The other problem with evil being obvious, is that there are OOC repercussions as well--characters can't respond to yours as they would and, perhaps, should. As above, if the evil guy tries to muscle his way through everything while announcing he's evil...the good guys with the bigger muscles should be able to simply smite him where he stands. They can't. That has to be accounted for.
--At no time do your attributes define your character's mannerisms or actions. They may be interpreted freely. The 20+ CHA sorcereress is not necessarily the equivalent to the english gentleman example used; is she not the darkly beautiful manipulator of energies through force of personality? As she goes down her darker road, is she not taking people with her? The number does not say what is so attractive about your character, it just says that there is something; the what is left to you.
--I think the things covered in this thread should easily underline why evil has been restricted in Layonara; it's a very difficult thing to play, and since a huge amount of development is necessary for it, people have time to learn how to do it without getting their characters executed for being obvious. Guides and suggestions are not usually meant as insults, and if you feel that you have been, read it over a few times more.
--I very very much would like to see more evil characters in Layonara. I love villains. No one is saying that all the good characters running around are perfect; but there aren't really a lot of consequences for their actions. Evil has to be done well.
--Offering a blanket "do your thang" suggestion to problems, is not a solution at all.
--Good always prevails over Stupid Evil. Smart Evil is always pulling the strings of Good. So long as there are puppets, there will be puppeteers.
-
just a comment on "evilish" chars, Evil might look like a fun thing, oh boy do whatever you want yadayada. But its not, Evil is a lonly road, when you have an evil/mean char, you cant simply travil with everyone. Alot of times you will find that you cant go anywhere becouse there is noone on that will withen RP travil with you. So keep that in mind when you think "oh how fun, lets make so-in-so Evil"
-
Okay I want to comment on some of the things that Acacea has said (quite nicely I must say).
Having played an evil character for quite some time here on Layonara I think I should say a few things that go along with what Acacea has stated.
1) Evil is a process on Layonara. It is not an overnight thing. You must be willing to dedicate substantial time to this character and show the GMs that you can be trusted to play an evil aligned character. I am not sure of the exact time required, nor do I think there should be a hard fast rule, but rather should be left to the descretion of the GM team.
2) All those people who have begun to worship evil deities need to remember one key fact .... you are not evil! Acting like you are evil aligned before you truely are will delay your process. Post your thoughts and feelings in a journal but RP your current alignment. How can you expect to be allowed to play an evil character if you can't handle your current good one. Now this is not to say that you can't have an occassional dark side but you must play your alignment.
3) Evil on Layonara is not like what most think about when they say evil. You are not going to be allowed to run around killing anyone and everything. It is a restricted evil, you can plot and scheme but should you be found guilty of a crime, expect harsh punishments.
4) Being evil IS a lonely road, even being CN is a lonely road. Expect it, and RP your alignment as such. Travel with those of like minds, you should not be traveling with followers of Toran or Rofrien.
5) Don't be stupid. Running up to Plenarius and insulting him cause you are evil is just plain dumb and you will get killed and Chanda will laugh at your stupidity. Evil does not give you a license to insult good characters. Even a good character has a tolerance level.
*gets down off soap box*
-
Example of evil actions that would be perfectly legal on Layonara, as far as I can tell:
1) In the thick of battle, you and your wizard buddy are about to get smashed down. So you do the smart thing and goad the enemies towards the wizard, before high tailing it, knowing the life of the wizard should give you enough time to escape to safety.
2) Always taking a reward for whatever actions you have performed, should it be offered.
3) Not only refusing to help someone in need, but laughing at their sorrow, reminding them just what a sorry lot they're in.
4) Robbing loot, likely while hidden in the shadows or invisible behind someone, so that as they kill things, you get rich.
Some of those actions aren't -clearly- evil, but they certainly aren't 'good'.
Now that I've spilled the beans about Turor, Turor will not be doing anything bad in any way shape or form. He'll continue on with searching for his homeland and eventually clearing it of gobbos and duergars. I see three CDQ's in the future being dedicated to this.
And who says evil never comes out on top? Just the fact that wherever there are villains, there will be twice as many heroes to put them down. It's the way of D&D. Evil characters will certainly not succeed in Layonara, unless Sinthar allies himself with them. :P
-
I think number one is griefing, since that could cause the wizard to die and would then be a form of griefing. One thing that I always like to do while I'm traveling with goodies is to offer to loot so I can shorthand them on the gold. I don't do it all the time, and I never shortchange them by a WHOLE lot, because that would be ovious...but 20 gold multiplied by four or five adds up after a while. I never do this while I'm traveling with the Corathites or the other Baraeonites, simply because I have a sliver of respect for some of them, and I know that the Priestess could end my life at any time :)
-
*note to self, never let him loot for me*
-
Acacea - 3/10/2006 10:43 AM Trying for a quick summary of the thousand topics in the thread... (You don't want to know how long it was, before.) --You can improve the quality of roleplay and be "family friendly;" in fact I'm not sure what the two have to do with each other. No one was saying that the quality of roleplaying and being a family friendly environment were linked even, If you re-read what was wrote the you will find that it was implied that I personally thought (you may disagree with my thoughts thhat is entirely your choice btw but my own perception and strong belief is...) that the MAJORITY of folks like to keep it friendly, and what I meant by the whole family friendly example was that IF we had more folks rp there char 8 as walking up to someone in the street and abusing them it would not be family friendly and that would be a shame. --The PCs are not the common, day to day NPCs we don't see in cities. They are the genius wizards. They are sorcerers who channel power through sheer force of will. They are the monks that can will their bodies to greater performance. Comparing attributes to those in "real life" makes little sense when most everything occurring in Layonara would be termed "impossible." Once again no one said that the PC's WERE common day to day NPC's. (As a curiosity you therefore see yourself as 'common' then in RL? Thats is a shame because I always thought of myself as quite unique with no one else being quite like me.) What i was trying to get across, and was discussed very well i might add bu ZeroVega, Zero what you said in your reply to me made alot of sense mate, but I digress...so what I was TRYING to get across was the fact that for some people, some being the operative word, playing a char whois far more charasmatic, intelligent or wise then yourself can be hard. Of course if DnD were like RL we wouldn't be here having this discussion now would we? --No one is claiming that charisma is solely about physical beauty. That's not true. A charismatic general could be hideous, but be a great leader of men that inspires his followers. Saying, however, that it has nothing to do with appearance is blatantly false. I would flat out disagree that a person with a charisma of ten or below could be labelled "stunning," as "stunning" implies more than merely pretty. Stunning is head turning, people attracting, stance swaying. These things are the large part of what charisma is all about. If your character is wildly beautiful and alluring with a charisma of ten, they must have the hygiene of an ogre and the diplomacy of a spiked club. Once again this is your perception of Charisma but is it the correct perception? You seem to think so but alot would disagree with you, I for one. Looks are not Charisma, simple as that. Head Turning people might attract the type of people that are only interested in Aestetically pleasing things but a painting can be stunning and people attracting or a sunset head turning and I am pretty sure they have no Charisma. So we get back to what Diamond was actually saying about rping Charisma properly and hence my comment about 'family G rated friendly' and that point was ... That IF people did RP there charisma properly then we'd have alot of stuck up snobs and grumpy old men/women getting round scowling at each other which, as stated before, would be a shame to see. Your attributes shouldn't define your charchters mannerisms and actions? To me that is a ludicrous statement! So we should have int 7 people solving the riddle of the shadow box? Str 8 people trying to force a door open? Of course your attributes should guide your actions, that should be the platform from which you define your charachter before building the personality and eventually attributes may have nothing to do with who your charchter is but surely it has alot to do with how you will fit into your fantasy world initially. Heck i've even heard you state about Acacea that she isn't all that wise so that is why she hasn't learned from the last time she stuck her head in a box without fearing the consequences :P Blanket statements were not offered to people as a fix but it was in fact stated that Layo was meant to be about Fun not Rules lawyering. Roleplaying is about alot more then just hanging with the clique crowd or taking a cliche sterotype and playing it well and THAT is what Diamond was trying to get at IMO. Is that close Diamond? Or if I am off the mark I apologise.
-
I was going to try and answer the points listed here but I am afraid most of the ones I attempted to make earlier have gone mostly misunderstood, and thus the replies to it seem to me, completely irrelevant and even contradictory in places. Rather than rephrasing every statement, I will just ask you to read it over again without grossly misinterpreting. As I spent about an hour trying to make it consise the first time (and ended up with the still-lengthy post), I'm not up to the rehash...
I'm unsure where half of these comments came from, though; roleplaying is of course more than hanging out with a crowd or playing a stereotype...but who are you arguing with? Where do these things come from?
If you honestly don't understand some of the things I was saying after reading it a few more times, feel free to PM me and I will explain away, or even catch me in-game. I don't really don't want this thread to degenerate any further than it already has (a lot), just for the sake of making myself understood, and I don't have the energy for more too-long replies that obviously fail to make themselves clear or productive.
-
? Dude?? nothing is degenerating anywhere lol
i too tried very hard to set it out well. Each paragraph is seperated by a space. Each of my points of rebuttle written directly under a previous topic.
At the end I make a summary statement based on the very first topic in this thread. Is that not clear to you because umm sorry if it isn't but to me after re reading a few dozen times I think the summary statement at the end quite clearly refers to the first post in the thread and even states almost most of the posters name lol
Are you implying I am ignorant or illiterate in some way that I cannot in fact understand what you have written? It is my hope that I do in fact understand what you have written or what did I just waste a good half hour rebutting? It seems to me that you seem to have attached some hidden meaning or code hidden within my text when I assure you that there is in fact none there to find. If you have a problem with me offering my opinion and continuing a discussion thread that interests me then by all means feel free to pm me and say so, it won't get you anywhere but because I feel my part in this discussion has been clear and productive. Some advice perhaps would be that if you do not feel that you can participate in an adult discussion thread where someone does not agree with you 100% then simply don't participate. It is clear to me that you are bored of the topic anyways so why waste the energy replying?
-
Everybody chill or I'm freezing this thread.
-
It is 100 degrees here pan, send me some of that Winter weather will ya! it help chill me :)
-
The intention of this thread was not to ellicit discussion, actually, but to provide some form of aid to those that seek to enrich the roleplay of their darker characters in such a way as is allowable by the rules and restrictions of the server. Therefore, I'd ask a DM to please freeze this thread, and perhaps delete any posts that aren't really at all useable as a resource. The bickering ones are a good place to start in that sense.
I'd like to apologize, then, for the inconvenience that this thread has brought. My bad.
-
No point to having a discussion board that you cannot discuss upon. Also no point to discussing anything with someone who hasn't got the maturity level to deal with being disagreed with and only defence is to call into question someones intelligence. Apologise away but I say the amount of discussion you inspired was a good thing until I tried to validate my points to a person who for some reason feels it is important to be right at all costs. So for this I apologise to you if that vexes you so but I for one feel no remorse for defending myself against some silly little snide remarks disguised as sugar coated sweetness.
Looks like you'll get your wish after this post anyways :)
-
[orange]Right.. this is silly beyond ridiculous. This thread is now locked.