The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: jan on April 09, 2006, 02:26:38 PM
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Is it alowed if i use a cloak of Az'atta( sanctuary) to avoid monsters to get to materials i need ?
Barion
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As your character is not a cleric or Paladin that would likely be a personal choice. I would think if your character has a quarrel with Az'atta for whatever reason he shouldn't wear it but beyond it would be up to you.
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I'm sorry if my question wasnt clear enough .
I'll try it with some other words.
Is it allowed if a character uses something to avoid a fight so it is easier for that character to get to certain resources?
I'm not talking about camping in a cave or something,but about using ...hmmm...say hide or something so the char
doesnt have to fight all monsters on the way to the cnr he/she wants to get.
I mentioned the cloak because it gives sanctuary twice a day =)
Barion
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IMO, I don't think Az'atta intended those cloaks to be used in that fashion. They're items of protection, not stealth.
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This is really no different than a wizard using Invisibility or a rogue using stealth. Some CNR, such as plants, can be harvested in such a way. Others, like minerals and ores, cannot because the game does not allow it.
So I think the answer is that using Sanctuary or similar means to get some CNR is valid, even realistic, as not all classes are suited to combat and in truth this server's focus is not combat. Speaking from an RP standpoint, a wizard would use every means at his disposal to go obtain a particular resource if he could, which includes use of the spell Invisibility. Likewise, a fighter would do the same, using the means available to him, which generally means combat.
So, if it's appropriate for your character, and it's not obviously exploiting something, then yes.
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If Az'atta didn't want you to sneak past something, then the something wouldn't fail the will save, no? ;)
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Word of warning...
Don't "trust" the things to fail the will save. The DC is quite low... ;)
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One thing I want to point out on this subject, and it is for spells, classes, tactics as well (not just items). One should never use tactics to sneak by spawns abcd and then only have to do combat with spawn e, that is abusing AI. You are touching on a subject that can quite easily be abused if not very careful and in many cases the player will not know about unless he/she stops and steps back and thinks about it for a while. Just wanted to throw that out there for some food for thought.
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I'm a little confused on what you just said, L... are you meaning that, say, if I use invisibility to saunter past a bunch of giants in search of silver veins, then upon finding them, fighting and killing any monsters near them, mining, then using invisibility again to escape, that that would be abusing AI?
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Yes, that is correct--to a degree at least. In some cases it is 'smart' but in many cases (and it depends on the resource placement etc.) it is abusing ai. Basically if it does not 'feel right' when doing it then chances are very high that it probably is not right.
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humm, I will have to think on this, to be sure I haven't or am currently not abusing A.I. with Cole, as I often, especially in caves, use invisibility to stroll past the first levels that don't have the CNR I want or no CNR at all. Of course, when I get down to the area where the things are, I clean up anything even remotely close to the CNR. Point and case: I used to have Cole run all the way down to the bottom of Haven, then kill everything in the big room at the bottom, mine just the platinum, then turn invisible and leave the same way I came in. If this was abusing AI, I apologize and would accept any retribution for such activity, but I honestly was not aware it would be considered as such. It makes sense to me, not only to speed up the process of gathering, but also if your character really prefers not to slaughter everything in it's path- kill only what is necessary (not that Cole usually cares, but I know many other characters that do)- to use a variety of means to access the things you're after (except for spawning the creatures, then leaving until they despawn, returning and "stealing" the CNR).
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What you stated there is not abusing the ai.
Basically..heh.. I hate invisibility, sanctuary etc. It just is ripe for exploitation and abuse, even when people don't realize they are doing it. No online game should have them, period. But... since it is part of D&D and I didn't rip them out early on I sort of need to keep them in place now. Not likely they will remain in place later on (future versions) though because I just don't think any class (regardless of the reasoning) needs them except to make things 'easier'--it is not a balance thing at all.
Anyways, just wanted to throw out that concern that I stated above.
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*has to punch himself in the face a few times to keep from commenting on the removal of invisibility*
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"...except for spawning the creatures, then leaving until they despawn, returning and "stealing" the CNR..."
And something like this will get somebody banned as it is blatant.
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Pooof, my comment's gone. :)
I probably don't understand what you consider nerfing so I'll just remove my comment to avoid trouble.
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Nobody is nerfing invisibility, nowhere in Leanthar's post was that said. CNR that is hittable already dispels it. And I'm pretty sure that when the team is on the lurk for balancing issues for invisibility it wont be a blatant removal of the spell.
Please don't make this thread a discussion on spell balancing cause it will get locked very quickly.
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One of the reason why using invisibility to sneak past spawns to gather resources is that players don't have to roll a Move Silently check, and the monster doesn't have a chance to counter that with a Listen check. So it sort of surmounts to abusing of AI since they are too stupid to roll a Listen check with the way the game is setup. I believe that is part of the reasons why L is concerned with using the spell to gather CNR resources.
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So then, why not make every source of CNR material dispell invisibility?
Imagine rumaging through a bush to pick off the best berries - it makes quite a bit of noise. Getting close to a silk mound and spining some silk around a twig wouldn't be noisy but the nearby spiders would notice. Chopping sugar cane can be pretty messy.
It would require a bit of work but it would curb the worries with the invisibility abuse to gather resources.
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SuperMunch - 4/10/2006 10:07 PM So then, why not make every source of CNR material dispell invisibility? ...... It would require a bit of work but it would curb the worries with the invisibility abuse to gather resources.
Dont take this comment the wrong way and it is not aimed at anyone particular, but why does a project team have to go and code everything to stop possible abuse?
This is something that we as the players can easily control and implement ourselves without any work and effort other than changing our attitude and approach. It has been said many, many times, if it is too easy or dont feel right then it is probably not right and then the answer is easy....dont do it.
The project team's time is much better utilised for world improvements and adding nice and exiting features to the world, than trying to code for every possible abuse that players can think off.
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I understand Aragwen and I've stopped abusing invisibility because I read it here.
However, some players sign up on the forums, submit their character, get it approved and don't check back.
Leanthar's comments on this page probably hasn't been read by more than a handful of people so either you work around those people (coding, which isn't easy) or you bring this to their attention (which isn't easy either).
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I couldn't agree more, and in a perfect world the team wouldn't have to regulate anything by changing codes. However many people have the notion if I can do it then I am allowed to do it, and the history of the server strongly indcate that problems like these do return on a regular basis. Perhaps bacause new players aren't aware of the teams view on such subjects, because some people aren't so dedicated to the server as others or because some people are cheaters breaking rules they know exist if they can benifit from it...
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@Supermunch and Harloof, Yep, you are both right on with your comments.
1) Few people actually read and provide feedback on the forums on a regular basis.
2) Things read are quickly forgotten.
3) People tend to think 'if I can do it then it is okay' because it is convient and they do not want to stop and think about things (right or wrong that is how it works in many cases). And yep, everything else that Harloff stated--and yep they almost always return.
So we do have to code around these things, sad but true (isn't that a song? :) ), but it is something we know we have to do although it takes so much time that it takes us away from putting in new systems. But as you can see from this link (below), we still get new systems in place. :) http://nwn.layonara.com/gamesystems
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wah! don't get them too excited about that list yet, L, we're still working on descriptions for most of those things... 0.0
*furiously tries to keep up with the amount of meticulous editing LORE requires*
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I'd love to help out in LORE but I'm afaid I'd end up writing incredibly verbose explanation of very simple concepts - I'll just stick to filling the database with Freldo's Journals.