The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Harloff on April 27, 2006, 07:34:47 AM
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From my point of view the DM-team is bleeding, people are leaving the team quite often, taking breaks, stop doing CDQ/ECDQ etc.. Which as I see it is caused by a too great workload due to CDQ's and ECDQ's. And at the moment I think there are more than 40 level 20 characters on the server, either waiting for a ECDQ at the moment or waiting for the 8 or 12 months to pass so that they can get a ECDQ. And the number of players at level 20 raises each month. This means that the number of people waiting for a ECDQ will just increase steadily from now on.
In order to solve this problem i suggest to remove ECDQ's all together, but keeping the approval procedure of epic characters. so an so many month, doing an impact, etc.. Perhaps replacing it by an optional CDQ from which the player can get an item, an abilety or ... (max 2 or 3 sessions). Furthemore, I suggest to set a max of 1 CDQ / 10 levels, removing the general preassure on the team.
NOTE: This is not meant as my way to push the team to do what I want, or to become epic easily myself. But I think the team has way to much work, and this is my way of giving them my full support to take what I see as necessary actions in order to reduce their workload.
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I think they serve an important purpose. The DMs who run an ECDQ or CDQ are only spending time they would on a normal quest that would not aid in entirely too much development, to something that builds on the foundation of a character. They both should remain, as they've both been a part of Layonara for quite some time.
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The breaks are scheduled, and not that many are leaving. And as for how many level 20's there are, that's fine. Becoming epic is, and should be, an enourmous event. It should be a hundred times harder to attain than even the work it took to get to 20th. Not only does an ECDQ represent part of this, but it is the surest test to discover whether or not the character is really ready to become epic. It's better that we have a hundred level 20's and ten Epics than a 100 Epics who weren't really ready to have the rank and responsibility of "Epic."
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Totally disagree with removing them; "going epic" is a big deal and something specific to -your- character that is involved with shaking the world, the reason for the "epic" status. Even after approval for the opportunity to be epic, there is still the chance of failure, and I think that is very, very important.
I haven't even had a character development quest because I haven't really had any issues requiring GM intervention outside of normal quests. But a lot of step ups in character progress need the CDQs for the same pass/fail reason, whether to take a complex prestige class, or to move up in station in say, the church, besides just having it be tied to level. You can't significantly move up in station in whatever thing you are in through private messages, and you can't talk to the NPCs and answer for them.
I think they're an important part of the world, just ones that get spammed with "I want to go with my friends to x location, can you make a quest out of that?"
It's not the concept that is at fault in those situations.
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Keep in mind a couple things:
1) The rules have changed on ECDQs and CDQs in general regarding length and # of sessions.
2) The rolling vacations for the GM team are coming to an end in the near future.
The purpose of the ECDQ is that it denotes an exceptional point in a character's life. Removing the ECDQ process makes being epic "just another level with cool feats"...and that's really not what it's all about.
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*looks around - gets ready to run - clears his throat and yells*
BRING BACK XP-PENALTIESSSSSSS!!!.... *a flying rocks smaches into varkas face and he falls*
*Before pasing out varka manages to say one thing though*.... I told you so... (couldnt find the post about xp-pen. what a shame) ;)
*mumbles while pasted out* But maybe there be a..a...a rea....*failed consitution check 2. time*
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Simple solutiom could also be to get more gm's, simply a matter of supply and demand.
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xXDenizeNXx - 4/27/2006 10:44 AM Simple solutiom could also be to get more gm's, simply a matter of supply and demand.
heh....
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25233&posts=1&start=1 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=25233&posts=1&start=1)
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More GM's wouldn't solve the "problem" anytime soon, though, as it's my understanding it takes more time and extra training to become and "ECDQable DM."
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miltonyorkcastle - 4/27/2006 10:55 AM More GM's wouldn't solve the "problem" anytime soon, though, as it's my understanding it takes more time and extra training to become and "ECDQable DM."
You are correct in that, though more GMs would allow those older GMs who are comfortable enough and ready to run ECDQs to have more time/opportunity for such things. Eventually the newer GMs will gain confidence, etc. It's not so much a matter of training as it is comfort level, ability and other such factors
Adding GMs is not a solution in and of itself though.
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well now that the soul mother is back I doubt people will be as risky as they were before
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LFFF - 4/27/2006 6:04 PM well now that the soul mother is back I doubt people will be as risky as they were before
I can think of one that will, still wanna take that bet?
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*laughs at Blackguy's remark*
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well since I'll be taking your ECDQ spot if you die *its the midst of battle and Gotak charges into the army of drow... suddenly Lia eats a banana and tosses the peel in Gotaks path*
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LOL ,Poor Gotak.
Im glad the Soulmother is back.Now they need to bring back the xp loss maybe 2%loss.
The newer players have no fear of death.
As for ECDQs I think keep them in.Its a milestone in the Characters life.
I know the GM I picked to do my ECDQ is very busy,but it will be worth the wait.
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The problem is not in ECDQs, the problem is that it is too easy to get to 20. The levels that cause the most trouble are 12-20, as these go by, as strange as it may be, faster than 9-12, and a lot faster at that. That is the reason why there are so many level twenties who have to wait for months to even apply. This happens because during levels 12-20 a person just has so many creatures (entire central) that give a lot of Xp.
If it was in my power I would do the following
- Bring back the Xp penalty - this is what makes people careful. The prospect of a death token never scares anybody, unless they already have atleast 8. Prove of this is Layonara V1 and how adventuring changed after V2 came in.
- Remove the need of a CDQ while taking a prestige class, I believe these are the primary reason DMs are swamped. To counter the effect of such an action and still make the prestige classes special, have a character require a good (stress this) development thread or as an alternative, many DMs who have witnessed good RP in the direction of a prestige class.
- Make CDQs even harder to apply for, something really major in a character's life
- If this doesn't help, then lower the Xp from creatures and quests. These are the last and most drastic measures. Though lowering the amount of Xp from quest is reasonable, as there are a lot more quests ran these days, which further increases the speed of leveling.
*takes a huge iron shield and puts infront of himself incase any stones fly his way*
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I was just about to suggest something like Ar7 did. Lower the xp from kills at least, killing millions of monsters mindlesly shouldn't grant people epic status(I hope I am not stepping on someone here if I do it isn't intentional). What should give epic status is solving problems getting a name through your actions and developing your character.
And the xp-penalty, I am all for it... The only problem might be that people will get afraid at control their character from a OOC perspective, not picking fights because the might die. But if people rp it well I think it should get back in game.
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The lack of time for holding ECDQs is working as a chokepoint. I don't mind
that.
I disagree with Pibemanden "killing millions of monsters mindlesly shouldn't
grant people epic status". It's the people with a lot of free time who get
to lvl 20 _seemingly_ fast. The ECDQ prevents just that, becoming epic
with monster bashing only. So if you lower the xp those who like to play
only a few hours a week will take a big hit.
Is there a need for CDQ on PrC? Thought it was still one of two options.
The second option being a good Dev Thread.
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I am sure that the thing about level 9-12 being harder to get than level 13-20 is caused by the exp reqirements and the exp limit. Meaning that a level 9 and a level 14 have the same exp req. but when a level 9 kill a giant on central he will get less exp for the kill than the level 14 because of the exp. limit. Besides that he will of course have a much more difficult task in killing the giant than the high level and thus can't kill as many per hour as a level 14.
In the end I believe it boils down to the fact that the system is build around an increasing level requirement to gain a level but on layo we have a flat level requirement.
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Frendh - 4/27/2006 1:46 PM
Is there a need for CDQ on PrC? Thought it was still one of two options.
The second option being a good Dev Thread.
I believe that depends on the specific PrC.
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Ar7 - 4/27/2006 10:12 AM
The problem is not in ECDQs, the problem is that it is too easy to get to 20.
*throws a stone* :) I dont know what world you play in but it took Glenn 2 months to get from 13 to 14 and now 14 to 15 is going just as slow. The XP system is fine. I think you are looking at the small group of players that only play during quests and have pretty much given up RP (witty banter during a quest is not really RP, but it is fun). I have more to say but I think I will stop there :)
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There are a lot more Level 20's because those people have had the most time to play, have been in LOTS of quests, and the soul mother has been gone. Most were not because of massive monster killing. The rest that have reached 20th have just been here long enough and their leveling just happened to coincide with these other "super-questers" as I'll call them. I make quite a few quests these days, though I didn't used to, but amazingly, there are many that have consistently made 3-4 quests a week, or more.
I'm not saying this is "bad" or "good," just pointing it out.
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I'm pretty sure Pankoki addressed this post response regarding levelling and max capacity of higher levels about a year and a half ago. And it remains dead-on in my opinion. I'd dig it up but I need to get truckin' here soon.
Also, from the likely perspective of the working staff, asking for script changes is maybe a bit presumptuous. This death system that is currently in place is fantastic. I mean that... it's fantastic. It is a non-punitive evolution of how PW's go about dealing with death, it brings realism and a much closer look as to how players should roleplay their previous demise. Sure, it can be tweaked, but since *I'm* not the one that's going to have to script it... I'll probably sit back and relax while the workers make the decisions of where their hours are going to go.
As for CDQs and ECDQs and general staff involvement... I have to say it, Layonara is ridiculously spoiled. Sure, you should strive for excellence always, but wow, look at that calender and how full they're able to keep it. It is wild how much motivation is maintained by the staff here. It is so so so so hard to get staff involvement like that on a continuous basis. And it's fairly obvious that given the huge number of players online, you have a fairly difficult demand to meet when it comes to tailored individual quests. And that's probably why they're hiring more, as Dorganoth linked. But seriously, talk about a juggling act trying to cover this playerbase with human beings that have their own schedules outside of DM'ing.
So while you bring up a good point on the limitations to meet demand, I don't think compromising the integrity of the tried and true system of ECDQs is warranted. It's there for a lot more reasons then just to signal your arrival. It's an application process and an introduction process. That is, the staff should really get to know you once you've influenced the server enough to be an epic. Because in the ideal self sustaining system of a server, an epic has enough world plot information now to either facilitate plot as a player or progress to being a DM - in both cases it help if you're brought into the family of information and exchange. Bottlenecked or not, it's a great way to do things.
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Yeah... I got the vague feeling that I've already poked this before with the Pan logic. Don't rightfully remember where it was or what it was for.
In any case. It all boils down to one thing. As a team, and as observers of the world, if you may, we would rather have unique epic players that are there for a reason and have proven to be beyond the norm of even the mightiest of adventurers, than simply opening the gates to anyone that can reach level 20.
Meaning no offense on those people who have or don't have time to quest, but making it to level 20 does not prove you are an epic character. And many of our players who have reached level 20, while having ocassional spurts of glory, have truly not left that significant mark yet. So in the end having "40 level 20 players" is more consistent with what our world is about, then having a free access to epicness.
For all matters and purposes you should consider that the level cap in layo is 20 and to those real special and unique, a boon is granted. And please don't take this comment as if it were an elitist perspective. Because it isn't. You can influence the world whether you're level 20, 10 or 35. This system however was designed (and allowed, remember that before we did not have epic levels period) to reward those who have left a mark on Layonara that they deserved a bit more.
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Pankoki - 4/27/2006 12:35 PM In any case. It all boils down to one thing. As a team, and as observers of the world, if you may, we would rather have unique epic players that are there for a reason and have proven to be beyond the norm of even the mightiest of adventurers, than simply opening the gates to anyone that can reach level 20.
Meaning no offense on those people who have or don't have time to quest, but making it to level 20 does not prove you are an epic character. And many of our players who have reached level 20, while having ocassional spurts of glory, have truly not left that significant mark yet. So in the end having "40 level 20 players" is more consistent with what our world is about, then having a free access to epicness.
Well said, you just have to look at Ozy, Rhiz, and Plen to see examples of epic chars. Sure we have a bunch of 20th level chars and some of them were at one time well known and accesable but it seems that quite a few have cliched out in order to get to that 20th level goal (some quite fast too). It is the chars that make that climb and still have time to talk with the new chars and help mid levels on quests and spend time helping us all get deep into the story, that is the sign of an epic. Not just being on all the "right" quests. I am amazed at how Ozy's player can be a part of the plot quests and still have time to hang around Hlint and chat with all of us and meet and RP with new players, that is a shining example of epic (even if he is a wind bag *laughs*).
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*shrugs* to me level 21 is the level coming after level 20, have never really understood the big fuzz about that...
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It may not strike you as being a big fuss, but D&D stops at level 20. Unless you have the Epic Level Handbook. So there's quite a bit of fuss, really.
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yeah, by DnD standards, when you go beyond 20, you are trying to reach for something on a divine level. Creatures in power above level 20 are legends. And above all, feared and revered.
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Furthermore, I have never done any PnP playing (though I want to sometime) but I think that in PnP levels are MUCH harder to attain. For example, a level 9 rogue in the PnP world is pretty strong and should be looked at with respect. In the online world a level 9 rogue is largely considered weaker than most other classes. (correct me if I'm wrong PnP experienced players)
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Depends on the setting, but yes a lvl 9 rogue has a lot of possibilities in a PnP setting that he lacks in a computer game due to limitations.
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I think there should be other Epic limits like one Epic paladin per diety's that have paladins, and the same for clerics. In my old PnP world there will only so many of each level of Druid after a certain level, and there was only one thiefs guild master (rogue now, not that that matters how many pure rogues do we have) you had to "replace" him/her if you wanted to be the "numero uno".
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So epics are a big deal because you need another rulebook in pnp and in NWN context you need hotu...
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*smiles* No Harloff they are not a big deal for that reason. They are a big deal because I do not want a bejesus amount of character above level 20 walking around the world like a god (in a manner of speaking) just because they are above level 20. Layonara is based on a history of D&D and I treat things above level 20 in a different manner, always have and probably always will when using the D&D rules. Now..I don't really care how many level 21+ we have walking around the world so long as they prove they are not just hacking and slashing to those levels, IE they get through an ECDQ approval and then on top of that succeed in their ECDQ.
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In the old days (1st and maybe 2nd edition), there was only 1 druid for each level over a certain point...which I believe was 15th level. Druids under these rules capped at 23rd level as the Hierophant of the Cabal. This rule was introduced in the Unearthed Arcana book (yes, I still have a copy) and was among a set of rules to further define class progression above the point where the Player's Handbook left off. There were no Epic rules in 1st edition as such, and the defined class progression effectively ended (or became rather mundane) at different points depending on the class. Each class also leveled at a different rate.
3rd Edition is such a different beast, however...the old rules really don't apply well. Reaching Epic levels (21+) is not just another level in 3rd edition rules.
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Epic
1. Surpassing the usual or ordinary, particularly in scope or size
2. Heroic and impressive in quality
That's the definition from dictionary.com. The very fact they are above the ordinary shows that they are, indeed, as big deal. I mean, look at the epics in history. There have been hundreds of heros and generals throughtout the history of the world worthy of note, but only a handful of which people would actually consider "epic." So why should it be any different with Layonara? After all, if everyone finds their way to epic with little or no difficulty, it is no longer above the ordinary.
I guess another way to look at this would also be in terms of sports. Take baseball for instance. There are the people everyone wonders how exactly they managed to play professional baseball. Then you have the mediocre players and the really good players. However, then you have your players like Babe Ruth, or Ted Williams. Players like them would be the "epics" of baseball. They'll probably never be forgotten, and that is a big part of being an epic.
In Layo, an epic character is the type that would be remembered ages after they die. They would live on in tales and legends, and people would aspire to be like them (or, in some cases fear them). That's just not something that can, or should happen to everyone however sad it may be.
That's my 2 cents on all of this.
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I've been playing off and on for like a year and none of my characters are over 16. Due to my time and when I like to play I can never find a quest to go on, and due to the nature of my characters it is hard to find a group (Can't stand monster bashing all day, I like crafting :) ).
Epic is the key word in ECDQ, the question has to be asked. What have You done to make you so special and valuble to the world of Layonara?
If the answer is "Nothing of importaince" then you really need to consider, what a plan of action to flesh out that character. Simply because it is importaint that that character has done something note worthy to gain epic states.
I burned out running CDQ's, I didn't mind the ones that were "I'd like to develop my character in Xxxx manor in order to do this or that or even a PrC (and I give you infomation on my character)".
However I can't stand the "I want a cdq run it for me with no real meat or substance I just want to waste your time".
CDQ's should be fun and unique, but I feel that you should give the GM/DM running that side quest just for you enough information so they can create something fun for you, with out burning out.
I'd also like to see the XP lose implemented again, but I don't like the DT thing (But thats just me). I'd rather lose the XP then lose my life, makes things intresting and harder to level up.
****Disclamer**** These are my opinions, not that of the GM team.
//End Rant!
Some day Willow will be epic and I'll have a intresting quest for Pan to run. :)
Sakura-chan
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Harloff - 4/27/2006 5:29 PM
So epics are a big deal because you need another rulebook in pnp and in NWN context you need hotu...
Don't think in OOC stat terms, think in IC terms as if Layonara were the real world.
Level 20 would be the limit of what very dedicated, "ordinary" mortals could expect to achieve. This is the level of ability that could be eventually expected from anyone with a long enough lifespan to match their level of hard work. Most people, even the Elves, don't have the drive it takes to become that skilled. That's why there are so many commoners.
Even among adventurers, there are few who can push the limits of their mortality, and fewer still who have the will and the ability to go beyond what was thought possible and truly become epic personalities. These are the people who would be Layonara's version of the Greek heroes. Out of all the Greeks, there are only a handful of heroes...
Unfortunately, the inevitability of reaching level 20 by eventually piling up enough XP makes it seem that this is practically automatic, and that moving on to level 21 is just a pile of XP away. But becoming epic really ought to mean something. Hitting level 20 ought to mean something, too, but anyone can do it. It's just a matter of time.
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What was the XP penalty that keeps getting mentioned? Dorax died 3 times last week on the Eon quest and lost 64k, that was a pretty hard penalty. Am I missing something?
As far as Epic goes, I totally agree that epic is something that should be very special. The system seems to have worked really well up to this point and I think it will continue to work well in the future.
On the quick leveling discussion, it seems that those people with more time to play can certainly get more exp if that is what they like doing, either by bashing or questing. I really enjoy playing Layo and if my wife would allow it I would probably play like 100 hours a week or more, but that is not the case. When I do play, I enjoy finding new challenges. Crafting is something that you can really get involved in and it can be very rewarding too in terms of money and role playing. I really think that this server is about having fun and it bothers me when people complain because someone is doing this or that, as long as the server rules are being followed we should be happy for others that are having fun too, less comparison about how fast someone made level would be my vote. There are some great rules in place here and as long as people are following those rules then we should be having fun. Let's simply enjoy the game and what each of us brings to it. As stated earlier, Epic status will be granted to those that have attained that level of impact, and that decision is being made thru an established process. I trust the team and the way things are handled.
Hope to see more of you in game!
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Players used to lose 10% of their total XP if they respawned. They could go back to their grave to get half of that back.
4% of their XP if they were raised, 2% if they were resurrected.
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Dorganath - 4/28/2006 2:53 AM xXDenizeNXx - 4/27/2006 10:44 AM Simple solutiom could also be to get more gm's, simply a matter of supply and demand.
heh....
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25233&posts=1&start=1 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=25233&posts=1&start=1)
Doh! I only open my virtual mouth to stick the other foot in sometimes eh Dorganath, ah well time to put me money where me big mouth is and give it a go at applying then... wish me luck heh
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Not really wanting this for the team(a lot more work) but it would be cool to have the same type of requirement for getting past level ten that there is for epic. Not as difficult but something that says, yes your char IS progressing.
Etinfall
and I get jealous of the players who can play alot, but I would never begrudge them for it. Good for them, if they are in game more often it is more likely they will there for big events.
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Thanks for clearing that up Orth.
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*smiles* I was only making a suggestion because I knew at least one gm (Meizter) who broke their back on CDQ/EDCQ's. And I just came with this suggestion in order to help.
Someone said it is a simple matter of supply and demand, and that is of course true but I don't think that the demand can ever be met. Over time people will gain levels and eventually end up at level 20, it can be made harder as some suggest but eventually they will get to level 20 no matter what. So the demand will always be there and steadily increase because of the popularity of the server. Even i it is fixed that way there are around 30 characters waiting for ECDQ's and about 11 months que on one (that is what Varka told me at least not checked it myself since it has never been relevant for me), and I bet some players will reach level 20 in the next 11 months. So the demand is there and will be there in the future too. However, dm's come and go and most of the gm's who stop do it because the workload i to high. That is at least the expression I have after reading their reasons for ending their carrier, and there is no signs of the workload getting smaller. New server rules are added that the gm's have to keep an eye on, more people demand ECDQ's and so on... So as I see it the team can never meet the demand, and the waiting list will continue to grow and grow. It might be me just seing things negatively but it is my impression that the waiting lists have steadily increased in the 1.2 years I have played.
I understand from the post above that many see my suggestion as sacrelegious, which is of course caused by me not seing it as a big deal (still don't and you can't convince me, I simply don't think that way). And I accept your different view on the matter eventhough I don't understand it, perhaps caused by my education as an engineer, I think in mathematical logics e.i. level 21 comes after level 20 as level 11 comes after 10. Furthermore, I see no direct correlation between slow level progress and good RP, I do, however, see a direct correlation between time online and level progress and between time on quests and level progress. However, the correlation between time online and level progress is ruined if you want to become a high level crafter then your time online will be spend on grinding crafing exp rather than adventuring exp.
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Harloff - I asked loosely around for information about ECDQs, about the "time-spand"/"waiting-time"..(which was around 10 months)...Didn’t sign up for anything yet.
Just know the list is long, we are heading for summertime - so it is probably a combination of all...(asked around a 1½ month ago)
BTW.
I agree and disagree with Skarps opinion - And it is not because I am lvl 20.......
Loooooong story why but I write a few words?
Being Epic shall stay special - just a matter of how you define an Epic Character. Dot.
Do you define an Epic PC by lvl (as the game is based on lvls)? - 100% pure system based
Do you define an Epic PC by "PC action"? - Pure RP 100%
Until I started playing Layo I played 12 years "system-less" games - Pure RP...No numbers of str, dex, con, skills points - nothing...
So I see the "two lines" as a confrontation here on Layo. We speak of RP and major marks on Layo but what I see on the post it a lot of talk around lvls - No offence because I love levelling - like a child in the candy store.
A lvl 10, 15, or 25 can be an Epic PC in my eyes - it is his/her action that does it. Example.
The people that made "Skype" - They are Epics but maybe they are not "so skilled"
The people behind Linux (the high brain) - that stands behind a front figure and uses 24/7 now in programming but will be never known as they stand behind the scene. Really skilled people. They are also Epics.
Gladiator:
Maximus is Epic - skilled and becoming known as he listens to the Slave dealer
The "slave-dealer" is also Epic because he won the crowd. In that way the crowd made him Epic.
Layo now:
Remiel, Kobal, Rev are Epics of name - and yes they have probably also killed a few goblins ;)
But little Bob from Greenland - Could easily also be "Epic" by going from one battle to another - slaying and killing. Chop, chop chop all days long. Why? Because he uses his skill. Melee skill - the only way to get better at fighting is by fighting. I got 125000 xp yesterday for slaying a few foes and making a raft? ...Someone please tell me how this works for my melee skill?..
Well - As you see I am more into "skills" as I call then so....my ideas don’t really fit in - but here is a loose idea.
Say - to get to Epic you need - 10.000 points
You can get points by:
- chop hop chop all day long (let the xp-cliff og 10 mio stay put)
- Gm hands out points for every quest you participated in. Looks at the PC individually
- points for CDQ
- points for an ECDQ
- ETC....
Leaving a mark on Layo "can" be done in many Ways - I will point at Ahndar and Jacchri which I see as characters that could go under my idea.
Good weekend
PS:
Leanthars comment
"*smiles* No Harloff they are not a big deal for that reason. They are a big deal because I do not want a bejesus amount of character above level 20 walking around the world like a god"...
That is what I call a "clean cut". Dot and done.
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Aloha All,
Now that the nice stuff is over I can see one way to put an end to all of this!
It's called a bell curve and most good PnP DM's that I have met use them. Here in a computer setting all we need to do is increase the amount of XP needed to reach the next level. This can be done many ways: Doubleing the XP to the next level; Adding a percentage to the current values;etc. etc.
I think this would be easyer than dropping the xp receved from monsters and Quests. and still accomplish the bell type ramp. For all you PnP players out there this is why most DM's have you play characters ONLY in their game.
I have been PnP gaming from 1980 to present (yes I still PnP) and you almost sound like you think that Leanther is a Monty Hall type GM (a least with XP). I would even agree to a level rollback if higher XP to the next level is installed!
And please rember the Player said this and don't take it out on my Characters. ;)
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Let's remember here, and this was kind of hinted a few posts up, that the ECDQ is a construct for Layonara. It's not standard rules, and NWN would happily let you level from 20 to 21 without giving it a second thought. However, Leanthar has decided (and it's his world so he can do this) that making the transition from level 20 to level 21, and thereby also making the transition from standard rules to epic rules, should mean something other than just another level.
"Leaving one's mark on Layonara"....while technically true that it can be done in many ways, there's nothing really "epic" about leaving goblin/ogre/giant bloodstains. Leaving one's mark is generally done external to the normal game mechanics, through CDQ/ECDQ, GM-led quests and the like. We could debate what leaving one's mark means all day, but the fact is that this is how Leanthar wants it to be, and I'm doubtful that position will change any time soon.
Even the rules themselves imply that going into epic levels is something special. The feats and other goodies available at epic levels truly are exceptional, reflecting that the character has quite grown beyond himself and has become something more than just what he/she has killed. And let's be honest...who wouldn't want access to the epic feats and spells? Many of them are pretty nice and really enhance one's character's already legendary abilities. If we had no ECDQ process, there would be a lot of power-leveled 20+ level characters out in the world, with very few of them having any RP depth whatsoever.
@Harloff: I too am an engineer (electrical), so let me see if I can give you a real-world physical/scientific example of how going from 20 to 21 is not just another level. I'm sure you've studied physics and specifically the properties and states of matter. By "states" I mean solid, liquid and gaseous forms. Between each is a phase transition. As one adds energy to a substance, let's say water in this case, the temperature of that substance rises in a generally linear fashion. However, when the temperature reaches a phase change boundary, such as going from solid to liquid at 0 degrees C (32 deg. F), additional energy must be expended in order to reach that next temperature. So as a given unit of energy is expended to increase the temperature of ice by one degree all the way up through the freezing point, additional energy must be applied to raise the temperature across that freezing point. The same thing happens when transitioning from liquid to gaseous forms. This extra energy at phase boundaries are generally known as "latent heat".
Now...applying that example to Layonara and epic status...consider the levels of 1-20 as a solid form. To get to 21 (liquid form) one must expend more energy to get there. This is reflected by the ECDQ process. The next transition, level 29 to 30 (gaseous) likewise requires another expendature of energy (ECDQ). Finally, as one becomes truly the stuff of lore and legend by moving from level 39 to 40 (plasma), another extra expendature (ECDQ) must be made.
So you see....ECDQs are really an immutable law of physics ;)
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Dorganath - 4/27/2006 5:38 PM
There were no Epic rules in 1st edition as such, and the defined class progression effectively ended (or became rather mundane) at different points depending on the class. Each class also leveled at a different rate.
Gosh, I'm old enough to remember 1st edition and AD&D (2nd Ed.)... back in those days, level 10-12 characters were considered "high level". Just look at things like the Against the Giants module series to see what "high level" adventures were...
There was clearly no concept of "Epic", and I believe that non-human races had level caps for most classes. It's been a long, long, time, and I'm not sure what ever happened to my old AD&D player's manual, DM guide, etc.
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Just want to pop in and say I agree with Dorax. Quit being jealous and be happy for the people that have the time to commit. We're all around to have fun afterall.
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Faldred - 4/28/2006 8:28 AM
I believe that non-human races had level caps for most classes.
Yes there were level caps on everything but the Fighter class. That aside do you remember "Chainmail"? Wow I really feel old now :p
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"chainmail"!!*snicker* you are old *laughs* Doh! I'm old for knowing what you are talking about :(
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Puts his hand up and says nah can't be that old can we? LoL
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orth - 4/27/2006 8:44 PM Players used to lose 10% of their total XP if they respawned. They could go back to their grave to get half of that back. 4% of their XP if they were raised, 2% if they were resurrected.
Do you remember that time we were trying to get you to level 17 or so, and Maddison joined in just after we got to the old Crypts near Melnon? We traveled around, and we almost got the Avatar of Corath, but then you suddenly died 3,000xp away from your level. I believe you lost somewhere in the range of 600,000xp. I am suprised you ever spoke with Qui-Z again. :D
I am so glad that the system has been altered, and in my opinion, entirely fixed.
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There was a similar situation were Madisson was on the loosing side. She was around level 9 and there were lots of level 4-5 characters. So Madisson decided to take them to the old Kobold caves, the little ones acted in a such a hectic way, that almost the entire party got killed, including Madisson. I then heard lots of cursing about how he lost weeks worth of questing in a stupid Kobold dungeon *laughs*
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I actually miss that death system.
I must be a sucker for pain.