The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => CNR Suggestions/Discussion => Topic started by: Pen N Popper on July 03, 2006, 09:04:48 AM
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Fish are difficult to damage with a shortbow and fishing arrows with the current DR of 5/-.
Perhaps make fish only damageable by fishing arrows (like ore is with pickaxe) and lower DR?
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They're already only damageable by fishing arrows, but... I second the idea to lower the DR by a point or so. A shortbow, being a bit nimbler and having a shorter draw, would be a little easier to use to fish with, anyhow.
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Could always use a fishing rod. *g*
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I still haven't figured out how to use fishing rods yet... the lines, the lures, the rod its self... it's too much for me. :)
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it is quite easy actualy euqip rod then use special properties of the wire and select the rod (keep inventory open while doing all of the steps)then us the special properties of the worms (worms are best than lure in hlints pound from my experience) and select the fishing rod. The use the rotary dial on a shool of fish and select use, that is it!
and if its a rp thing just ask someone who meditate often under the willow tree he will gladly shoe you how to use it.
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*laughs* It's hard to imagine fishing with a longbow. You see an English archer, six-foot bow in hand, staring down into the water, muscles straining as he works the two-hundred pound draw, the cam on his bow creaking under the tension.... *twang* "'Sblood, I missed!"
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I'd have to say that the english six-foot bows (YEW!) were Fullbows, if the term exists. *He chuckles.* I dunno... Shortsword, longsword, fullblade... Maybe Greatbow. 1d10 damage.
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Use the fishing pole, Bjorn swears by it. When you arch, you just get the slower and sickly fish, but when you use bait, you get the fattest ones that like to eat the most. Also, you get about double fishing xp with the pole than you do with the bow. Teaches ye patience lad! Now if you have rapid shot and are a marksman god, the bow might be a little faster. If you're a wizerd, cleric, dwarf or some other clunky character, you'll find the bow slower than the pole. Now you just have to start keeping a tacklebox full of copper and fly lures, grubs and worms... ;)
Honestly though, the worms and grubs are interchangeable... no difference to the fish if its noodle or tastey morsel. We should save worms for the fish and make grubs edible for druids.
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There are two patches of soild where you can find grubs or worms just beside the pound so the only thing you need to keep on you is your shovel and fishing pole of course
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Dude, you get double XP for the pole?
I'm switching.
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I had a very bad experience fishing with the pole once.
Freldo had saved up and bought all the gear and was about to sit down and fish but first he needed a worm.
Bought the shovel (expensive at the time, when you're low leveled, everything is expensive) and went to dig.
On the second sound bite, the shovel broke and no worm.
Never again. :)
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We should be able to ue our hands or even teeth =P to dig out ine soil for worms :)
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Pen N Popper - 7/3/2006 12:04 PM
Fish are difficult to damage with a shortbow and fishing arrows with the current DR of 5/-.
Perhaps make fish only damageable by fishing arrows (like ore is with pickaxe) and lower DR?
Like bow fishing is supposed to be easy? ;) It's nearly impossible to "miss" a fish with a bow, and even a shortbow has a 1 in 6 chance of overcoming DR on a "hit" (not including critical hits), so say at worst a 1 in 7 or 1 in 8 chance of actually scoring a hit that can land the fish (minus trouble with the lines, etc.). I still think it's faster and easier than using the fishing pole.
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Um... If you have a STR penaly, it's impossible to get a DRed fish with a shortbow.
I've got a mighty +1, and it's still MAYBE 1 in 20 that does that one or two points of damage.
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Ah. I didn't realize that bows applied STR penalties (never tried that before).
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Heh. Pyyran's got +1 or 2, but bows need mighty to apply a STR bonus. In his case, he SHOULD be doing 2-7 damage a hit, but I've seen him get 1s on fishing damage before.
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Bard song and point blank shot, +3 to damage at short range.
All Freldo needs to do is score 3 or more points of damage on the die (75% chance) and he's reeling it in. Being level 7 also helps, but you have to damage the fish to have a chance at getting it.
I used less than a single quiver of 99 arrows to fill a large chest with salmon at the Leilon Arms, pretty good, huh?
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That's 30 fish. :P Spawn camper.
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Nah, just a lot of trips to and from the Xeenite Temple in Karthy. *winks*
I only spawn camped when I was turning some 20 bags of sand into bits of sand for Jharl, I'd empty out a few bags before the salmon respawned near beep.
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lonnarin - 7/5/2006 11:11 AM
We should save worms for the fish and make grubs edible for druids.
Yes! LMAO
Edit: just for completeness, you CAN score a critical hit against a school of fish.
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How about adding sneak attacks with the bow?
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Yeah, but you're faced with a school of fish. Sneak attack's extra damage is based on the ability to hit vital areas. A rogue would have to be truly epic to be able to spot and hit the vital areas of a fish despite ripples and refraction.. and even if he could, what would be the point? All you have to do is lodge the arrow in the fish - you don't have to hit a vital spot. It makes no sense realistically, and mechanically, it gives an unfair advantage to rogues in one discipline. (Not that I'm against unfair rogue advantages, mind you...)
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It really is a shame that we don't get Sneak Attack ('Cause that would be super), but it's totally understandable why we don't. We have Crits, so we'll be happy with them.
Still, can we get some input from official-people on whether or not the idea to lower fish DR is reasonable?
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Not the official word, but I doubt it would be lowered.
You have an alternative using a pole, which should be the way to fish.
Now Jacc never uses a pole, cause he is an archer, much easier and quicker to use the bow for him. But to be true the sense of fishing you should use a pole in my opinion, but he only fish to eat, no other reason.
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aragwen - 7/16/2006 1:09 AM You have an alternative using a pole, which should be the way to fish.
Now Jacc never uses a pole, cause he is an archer, much easier and quicker to use the bow for him. But to be true the sense of fishing you should use a pole in my opinion, but he only fish to eat, no other reason.
Hehe, not really talking either way here, just curious... how much sense does this make, exactly? It likely will not be lowered, because people should be using a pole--it's the way to fish! ...But Jacc does not use a pole because he is an archer and needs to eat. Isn't it the shortbow-wielding 'archers that need to eat' that are requesting this? ;) Other than that... sneak attacks don't make any sense as a solution, as for some reason that's just saying "rogues are the best bow fishermen out there for some completely arbitrary mechanical reason!" Ye gotta sneak up on 'em, lad... aye, catch 'em when they be lookin' at a foine ladyfish, an' then ye foire a splinter roigh' inna the water an' STRAIGH' up the fish-knickers... aye, it be a good lesson t'learn in loife.
(Need more pole fishermen and grub eating druids, though...)
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mmm....yes....maybe that was a bit double edged.
But what I meant was due to the fact that Jacc is an archer and he has a bow with mighty +3 damage, the DR does not necesary bother him and neither does hitting the fish, so he fishes with a bow. And would not have mattered if it was a longbow or shortbow. He is an archer and he finds it good practise to fish with a bow as well, quite a challenge actually. If you think RL it is much much harder to shoot a fish with a bow than using a pole.
And in a certain way the DR makes sense, from the point of view that the arrow needs to travel through the water and then still have enough power to pierce the fish. So you will need some muscle behind the shot.
So my point was if you cant hit or catch the fish cause you not a "proper" archer (no disrespect meant) then use a pole. :)
Hope that makes a bit more sense.
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How about fishing Bolts?
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Not feasible. Try tieing a fishing line to a quarrel, and then firing it from a crossbow.
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Stephen, do not let your imagination be limited by your experiences: http://www.selfdefenseweapons.com/fishingcrossbow.htm
Google is proof that everything you can think of is likely out there for sale. :-)
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*He shrugs.* Sure, sure, if you want to mount the line on a spool in the very front of the crossbow... *Sticks out his tounge and laughs.*
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@ Argawen - a number of the polynesian cultures only used spears or bows to do their fishing - "proper" fishing had nothing whatsoever to do with a pole. Using bow and net to catch fish is perfectly precedented.
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I personally favor allowing fishing with Meteor Swarm. It's merits are practically beyond counting and it is really quite similar to the traditional dynamite fishing which is still practiced in many parts of asia.
1. Fish come out precooked.
2. Covers a large area.
3. Fish are only somewhat "blowed up"
4. It looks cool
5. People of Hlint are already used to stuff like that. : ) (In fact the garbage can would be safe b/c someone has started putting resist elements on it again.)
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I guess I should clarify. It's merits are beyond half-giant counting.
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darkstorme - 7/15/2006 11:14 PM
Yeah, but you're faced with a school of fish. Sneak attack's extra damage is based on the ability to hit vital areas. A rogue would have to be truly epic to be able to spot and hit the vital areas of a fish despite ripples and refraction.. and even if he could, what would be the point? All you have to do is lodge the arrow in the fish - you don't have to hit a vital spot. It makes no sense realistically, and mechanically, it gives an unfair advantage to rogues in one discipline. (Not that I'm against unfair rogue advantages, mind you...)
Actually, from a "realism" standpoint, I could argue in favor of sneak attack against a school of fish -- a stealthy rogue would be less likely to "spook" the fish before the arrow flew, making it easier to hit them cleanly. Of course, with that level of "realism", fish would have to be spookable -- i.e., someone lumbering up to the edge of the pond or river rattling fin ull armor would scare them away, and even then, if the first shot doesn't hit cleanly, they're gone.
Of course, realism and game mechanics are two completel different things...
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 7/5/2006 2:53 PM
Um... If you have a STR penaly, it's impossible to get a DRed fish with a shortbow.
Actually, not true -- you can still score a critical hit, and Point Blank Shot will get you back 1 point of damage lost from STR penalties. (And what self-respecting archer doesn't have PBS?)
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If the fish could be spooked and disappear if approached carelessly, then the move silently would be the sneak, not the extra damage from the actual attack. The fact that they are sneaking up on it is the advantage, and is the same one that a ranger or another stealthy character would have. There is no reason for them to have some kind of crippling fish attack. :)
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"crippling fish attack"
Sounds like something from a Kung Fu movie... 8)
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Think about that for a moment....do you think that after doing 3d6 (or more) sneak attack damage to a fish that there'd be much fish to reel back in? If there was anything, that would be one tough fish! :)
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Dorganath - 7/25/2006 8:44 AM
Think about that for a moment....do you think that after doing 3d6 (or more) sneak attack damage to a fish that there'd be much fish to reel back in? If there was anything, that would be one tough fish! :)
And this is different from a critical hit how? Not to be argumentative, but HP and damage are supposed to be relative terms -- a high HP creature can't necessarily take more punishment, they are just harder to hit cleanly. That's what the extra HP is supposed to simulate -- a sword thrust to the heart will kill anybody, but the 10th level fighter manages to slip it enough to only get nick in the shoulder, whereas a commoner or low-level mage would be slain outright by the same "hit".
A critical hit or a sneak attack is a matter of being precice, not hitting harder, and bypassing such skill and protection. If anything, a critical hit or sneak attack would cause less damage to the fish (that is, less damage to the fish meat), because the hit was better targetted.
I'd also like to point out that I'm against adding sneak attack damage to fishing, but that I was just making a "devil's advocate" argument from a "realism" standpoint. Game mechanics and balancing is a different issue entirely.
Edit: Clarifications
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Actually, to a degree it is a measure of how tough they are....how much of a beating they can take and how they are able to ignore (to a degree) or work through the pain and injuries of combat. Being able to hit cleanly is more the domain of AC than HPs. Giants, for example, are pretty simple to hit cleanly, but they have a bunch of HPs, so they take longer to kill....though I suspect we're talking about aspects of the same thing and using different words. :)
To answer your question more directly, critical hits and sneak attack vary in some fairly important ways. I see a lot more sneak attacks succeeding than I do critical hits. Also, a good sneak attack can very much exceed a non-sneak critical hit from the same character. Since everyone likes to bring up PnP a lot, in PnP, if I did 18 sneak attack damage to a 3 HP fish, the Gm would make sure I knew that the hit tore through the fish with startling efficiency and effect, slicing the fish into two pieces which both proceeded to sink to the bottom of the pond. And no...I'm not going to code it so that too much damage destroys the fish, so don't worry.
Oh...another important distinction is that with the right combination of things, a rogue could ensure a sneak attack every time, where a critical hit is far more random.
At the risk of a semantic argument, I'll not go into whether sneak attacks are more precise or not...the fact is that in terms of game mechanics, they do more damage. Precision to me implies some intent to be precise, and most of us don't have that level of precision. Called Shot is a good example of precision and intention. Sneak attacks are more opportunistic, and so one takes what one can get. Critical hits are lucky and/or unusually powerful strikes.
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As I saw it the DR comes from the need to pierce through a layer of water - might even be moving water. That will slow your arrow and therefore inflict less damage.