The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => CNR Suggestions/Discussion => Topic started by: Guardian 452 on July 24, 2006, 03:02:09 PM
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We now get 40 missle shafts per branch of wood (2 stacks of 20)
What about getting 40 arrow heads per ingot of metal?
I don't think this will take arrows out of balance.... but I am probably to biast to make that call ;)
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I don't think this is wise. Right now, you can essentially make unlimited attempt at arrowheads per ingot, thanks to getting a mangled metal on failure. All you need is a good supply of molds, and eventually, you'll always get an arrowhead (for 20 arrows), as long as you have even a 5% chance of success.
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I think this is a reasonable idea. If you look at arrows compared to most any other crafted item, the price required to make the arrows worth the crafter's while is well past what most are willing to pay. I would say that is indicative of the craft being a bit too resource intensive. 40 arrowsheads from an ingot, 40 shafts from a branch seems balanced and reasonable to me.
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Mangled metals don't return ingots 100% of the time. Myself, I don't think I've EVER gotten an ingot back from it.
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The higher your smelting skill is..... I beleive that controlls if you get an ingot back on the recycler.
I wasnt thinking of the mangled metal on failure.... mostly since the arrowheads Enzo makes are trivial ;)
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 7/25/2006 1:18 AM
Mangled metals don't return ingots 100% of the time. Myself, I don't think I've EVER gotten an ingot back from it.
Ok... for someone who doesn't smelt, that could be a problem, but once you're got a few levels in smelting, ingot recycling is trivial.
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The last two posters are correct. Ingot recycling is a very low-level smelting task and for very low-level smelters there is a chance of failure.
Now....here's the question for you all:
If arrowheads climb to 40 arrowheads/ingot, are you willing to give up the mangled metal on failure? Because really, getting back the mangled metal is a pretty nice parting gift for failure....there's NO risk of losing materials at all, except for molds, which are pretty simple even for low-level tinkerers, and which already go away regardless of success.
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If arrowheads climb to 40 arrowheads/ingot, are you willing to give up the mangled metal on failure?
NO
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Dorganath - 7/25/2006 8:38 AM Now....here's the question for you all:
If arrowheads climb to 40 arrowheads/ingot, are you willing to give up the mangled metal on failure? Because really, getting back the mangled metal is a pretty nice parting gift for failure....there's NO risk of losing materials at all, except for molds, which are pretty simple even for low-level tinkerers, and which already go away regardless of success.
I'm pretty abivilent on that, actually. If pressed, I'd side in favor of going to 40 and losing the mangled metal on failure, but only because arrowheads are the only instance I know of where a decent smelter can make unlimited attempts with the same ingot.
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Not sure my say counts since most arrowheads are trivial for my main character.... but I vote
YES
40 on success, no mangled on failure.
I know it isnt a huge thing but also keep in mind that you have to have a small mold for each try. Yes molds are easy to make, but time consuming.
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I'd have to say NO mainly because getting the metal ores is so much more time consuming. Having to track down someone strong enough to mine, then get them to give you a hand smelting it, then only to fail. The molds are so much easier to get your hands on. As an Archer, it would just make Nyyana's life even more difficult without that little chance of a retake.
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Dorganath - 7/25/2006 2:38 PM If arrowheads climb to 40 arrowheads/ingot, are you willing to give up the mangled metal on failure?
[Big]YES YES YES[/Big]
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I have no problem with it.
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*coughs* It is interesting to see two groups form here. At the one hand we have the experienced arrowmakers, who are already trivial for most arrows and have not much to gain from mangled metals anymore. Then there is the group of fledgeling crafters, who have a bigger chance at failure and would hate to see the mangled metal go.
Now, for making the it easier to make more arrows, I would say yes.
But to give the starting archers the same chance as the established archers have had, I have to say [big]no[/big].
EDITED
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I understand what your saying about more experienced vs. less experienced.
All I can say is I wish I remembered the exact recipie for arrows in Layo Beta 3 (or 4)..... I think it was one IRON ingot for 1 arrowhead (it may have been 4 IRON INGOTS for 1 arrowhead), and the only arrows we could make were just like the ones that the merchant sells.... PLAIN!!
So you guys have NO IDEA how well off you are already!
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considering how many arrows the average archer goes through per hunting session, anything less than 99-count per 1 crafting trial is too much work for the bang. I used to fletch a bit, but the contantly having to go out and make 5 arrowheads/stack with 5 lumps of clay/stack and chop up 5 logs/stack in which the stack is gone and done in less than 10 minutes made me avoid fletching altogether. 40 minutes of work should not yeild 10 minutes of arrows.
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Guardian 452 - 7/25/2006 8:29 AM
So you guys have NO IDEA how well off you are already!
ah... but just because man once used to poop in the river and now uses a chamberpot does not mean that he should never invent plumbing. ;)
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The point I was tryng to make is that some of us who have it trivial now had trudged thru some tough times. I know things progress and get better.
Fletching HAS changed since you last tried. You now get 40 SHAFTS per BRANCH!
And I agree that it is hardly worth it even if it were put to 40 heads per ingot.
In a group if Enzo is allowed to stick to the bow, in an outing I have used almost 2,000 arrows.
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Um...I don't think that how things were in b4 are necessarily relevant. Beta4 had a different balance (or lack thereof, by some perspectives) and so what was available then vs. now don't really compare.
Clearly, for those that arrowheads are trivial, this change is nothing but good....double the output for the same input and still zero risk. There's no down-side. What's not to like? For those still making their way, double the output (and effectively half the XP) at the expense of a much greater materials risk is actually quite a negative. For those who have not yet mastered making arrowheads, their progress will be greatly slowed by doubling output while removing the opportunity for recycling one's mistakes.
Now you may also ask, why not keep the mangled metal and double the return? The answer is balance. Really, it's quite a lucky thing that arrowheads can be attempted with zero metal loss. That 20 can be produced from a single ingot is also quite nice, compared with the ONE ring that can be made from a full ingot of the same metal, and with no return of mangled metal on failure, I'd add. This kind of a change would tip the balance of that particular craft. Maybe it doesn't seem significant, but it does then make fletching essentially faster and easier.
Maybe we should change the number of shafts one gets from a branch of wood to 20...everything would be even again in that case. :)
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The time required in alchemy is, arguably, even higher than that for fletching, given how much time it takes to gather parts for healing potions, for example, and how quickly one can go through them in a single adventure.
In real life, someone might spend a few hours preparing a meal that will be consumed in less than 30 minutes. This will always be true for consumable items.
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Dorganath - 7/25/2006 12:13 PM The time required in alchemy is, arguably, even higher than that for fletching, given how much time it takes to gather parts for healing potions, for example, and how quickly one can go through them in a single adventure.
In real life, someone might spend a few hours preparing a meal that will be consumed in less than 30 minutes. This will always be true for consumable items.
Of course, the flip side is that, in theory, there's always a market for consumables, whereas for durable goods, saturation can happen quickly. In practice, however, people seem (from my limited experience) to participate in fletching and alchemy primarily for making their own supplies.
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aye, though that one ring will still be with you after 2 minutes of battle (about what 20 arrows gives you gameplay-time) ;)
As a frantic gemcrafter who's aaaaalmost in the top 10 now, (Topple Goldwin, Topple!) I find ring crafting to be fun and don't worry about the one ingot vanishing. You can load up on gems and molds easily, not much weight there, and one ingot/attempt 2 for amulets is both realistic and reasonable. I made it to about oak arrows with silver tips on fletching with Bjorn, and while the XP was very decent (5 trials per 99 stack lead to quick crafting levels) the sheer fact that I spent hours just to make a stack and a half of arrows a very slow and thankless job, especially for dex-based ranger types. 5 ingots for a 99-pack that's gone in 10 minutes is scary compared to 1 ingot for a ring that lasts forever... or 6 ingots in a chain shirt. If one were to recylce/resmelt a valuable chain shirt, I'd hope that they at least got 10 minutes of disposable arrowheads for it.
Hence the uphill-climb of fletching. To a dedicated crafter or marksman, it feels like that mountain of Gehenna in Dante's Inferno where you roll that massive boulder uphill for hours and hours, only to have it roll back down to the bottom again. Then you must try-try again for all eternity. By that point, one literally salivates for arcane archerhood.
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Dorganath - 7/25/2006 8:38 AM If arrowheads climb to 40 arrowheads/ingot, are you willing to give up the mangled metal on failure? Because really, getting back the mangled metal is a pretty nice parting gift for failure....there's NO risk of losing materials at all, except for molds, which are pretty simple even for low-level tinkerers, and which already go away regardless of success.
For the sake of argument... what about 80 arrowheads/2 ingots/2 molds, return 1 mangled metal on failure?