The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jonzer Hexblade on August 07, 2006, 08:28:26 PM
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I was reading through the epic spell list and their requirments and noticed while reading up on Epic Warding that a 15th level Pale Master can take this spell. I have two questions regarding that. 1) Does the character have to have 15 lvls in Pale Master or just be a total of 15 lvl's with Pale Master in there somewhere? 2) If this is the case does the character in question have to meet the certain number of ranks in spellcraft requirment?
Thanks in advance for any info.
(I want to know because I play a 13/2 Sorceror/Pale Master)
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1) The character must have 15 pale master levels.
2) They still must meet the Spellcraft Requirement.
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That spell is just an unobtainable dream for every wizard.
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You must be character level 31 to meet the spellcraft requirement
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its the coolest looking defence spell there is :D
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Talan Va'lash - 8/8/2006 5:52 AM You must be character level 31 to meet the spellcraft requirement
Not true. You can take Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus to gain up to 13 additional ranks above and boyond the normal 1 rank per level (plus 3 at first level). You'd still have to be level 21 in order to qualify for epic feats, however, and you'd be using your feat at 21st level for Epic Skill Focus. As for the specific character concept, if he can't cast level 9 spells from his sorcerer levels, he'll need 15 levels of Pale Master, which is impossible until at least level 25.
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Does skill focus or base Int modifier or anything else add to the spellcraft ranks for the prerequisite or is it just the base points put into the skill?
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Xandor Loriland - 8/8/2006 12:41 PM
Does skill focus or base Int modifier or anything else add to the spellcraft ranks for the prerequisite or is it just the base points put into the skill?
Perhaps I need to check it out in-game, but the feats should add to your base ranks, and therefore apply to requirements, whereas INT modifier (natural or enhanced) is still a modifier, and should not apply to prerequsities. However, I note that LORE does not include the values from Skill Focus in the "Skills" section of the character page...
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Only the base ranks count towards qualifying for a feat. By base ranks I mean the skill points you allocate to the skills each time you level up.
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Reventage - 8/8/2006 12:53 PM
Only the base ranks count towards qualifying for a feat. By base ranks I mean the skill points you allocate to the skills each time you level up.
Hmmm... the manual says "A character with this feat is adept at a certain skill, gaining a +3 bonus on all checks with it."
That could certainly be interpreted as being considered a modifier, and not an addition to base skill, and it appears that is what the NWN engine does with it.
If I were GM'ing a PnP game, I'd make a house rule / clarification that Skill Focus would count toward prerequisities, though.
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Ah, but we all know there are sooo many differences between Nwn and PnP. :P
Last time i tried, i think you'd need the base skill points you spend at level-up just like Rev mentioned, i'll try using Skill Focus if i have some time.
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Hmmmm maybe it's just me but this whole 15th lvl Pale Master thing seems a bit useless. I mean you have to be at least 5th lvl in a archane spellcasting class to meet the 3rd lvl archane casting requirment, even then lets say you take the next 15 lvls in Pale Master. That would take you to lvl 20, and for one thing from what I hear is it is extremly difficult if not immpossible to have 32 spellcraft by then and you are almost epic anyway so why not just wait?
It is the coolest looking graphics ever though :D
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Jonzer Hexblade - 8/8/2006 1:20 PM
Hmmmm maybe it's just me but this whole 15th lvl Pale Master thing seems a bit useless.
It has not only a Spellcraft prerequisite, but also requires the ability to cast 9th level spells. The exception being 15 levels in Pale Master.
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And you don't gain new spells while you are taking Pale Master lvl's so it seems to me this is kindof a non-affect. For lack of a better term.
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Jonzer Hexblade - 8/8/2006 1:20 PM
you have to be at least 5th lvl in a archane spellcasting class to meet the 3rd lvl archane casting requirment, even then lets say you take the next 15 lvls in Pale Master. That would take you to lvl 20
You can only take a maximum of 10 levels in a given Prestige Class prior to level 21.
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Epic spells aren't spells they're feats.
You can't advance beyond level 10 in a PrC untill you are at least level 20 character level.
The lvl 15 PM clause doesn't let you get it earlier, it lets you get it at all.
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So it is impossible to meet the requirment to take advantage of this "bonus for being a high lvl Pale Master" until you become epic at which point you could take it anyway. Am I missing something or am I correct in this being impossible to take advantage of and if I am correct is it possible to alter the requirments so it can still be used by aspiring Pale Masters?
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Talan Va'lash - 8/8/2006 7:47 AM Epic spells aren't spells they're feats.
You can't advance beyond level 10 in a PrC untill you are at least level 20 character level.
The lvl 15 PM clause doesn't let you get it earlier, it lets you get it at all.
In that case its like saying "Everyone that makes epic spellcaster gets an egg and oh if you are epic with 15 Palemaster lvls you still get an egg!"
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Jonzer Hexblade - 8/8/2006 1:48 PM
So it is impossible to meet the requirment to take advantage of this "bonus for being a high lvl Pale Master" until you become epic at which point you could take it anyway. Am I missing something or am I correct in this being impossible to take advantage of and if I am correct is it possible to alter the requirments so it can still be used by aspiring Pale Masters?
It is a bonus feat you are eligible to take as a Pale Master. The requirements for being able to take the feat are:
* Ability to cast 9th level spells -OR- 15 levels of Pale Master
* 34 ranks in Spellcraft
I don't think it's explcitly stated, but I imagine you'd have to be taking your current level as either a "spellcatser" class (including Pale Master) in order to select the feat.
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Jonzer Hexblade - 8/8/2006 1:51 PM
In that case its like saying "Everyone that makes epic spellcaster gets an egg and oh if you are epic with 15 Palemaster lvls you still get an egg!"
Put it this way: without the special Pale Master clause, a Pale Master would be completely unable to select this feat unless (s)he had 17 levels of Wizard or 18 levels of Sorcerer. Or, in the case of a really odd build, 17 levels of Cleric or Druid plus the arcane requirements [Wiz 5/Sorc 6/Bard 7] to get into Pale Master in the first place.
I mean, I suppose you could have a funky Cleric 17 / Bard 7 / Pale Master 7 build, and it would be eligible for Epic Warding if Spellcrafte were maxed out, because the Cleric levels would provide the 9th level spell prerequisite.
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Ok if that is true it clears things up a lot. Thanks.
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The following are prequisites for being able to take the Epic Warding feat: 1. Being Epic Sorcerer or Epic Wizard
2. 34 ranks in Spellcraft
3. The ability to cast 9th level spells. Thusly being able to cast level 9 Cleric spells does not in any way make you eligible to pick the feat, nor does any amount of levels in the Bard class work towards earning it. As an exception to these limitations is to have fifteen levels in the Pale Master class and making the SC requirement. This allows you to take the feat, even if you aren't an epic Wizard or Sorcerer or can't cast level 9 spells.
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Oops. Missed that.
Thanks for the correct info... I'll just go off and hide for a while out of embarassment.
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In order to be considered an epic Sorcerer do you have to have 21 sorceror levels ar just 21st total with sorceror in there? Thanks for clearing that up Reventage.
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To be considered an Epic in one of the base classes you will need 21 levels in the class. To be considered an Epic in one of the PrCs you need to have 11 levels in the class with the exception of the Harper Scout PrC in which you can only attain maximum of five levels. To be considered simply Epic you need 21 character levels, regardless of the combination of class levels you have. So to be an Epic Sorcerer, you would need to have 21 Sorcerer levels.
Say hello to NWN Wiki (http://www.nwnwiki.org/Main_Page). If you can not find the information you need from Lore, NWN Wiki is the place for both generic and specific NWN information. While not flawless and lacking in the way of Layonara custom info, they have detailed quite a few of the quirks in the NWN engine.
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Am I mistaken, but the NWN manual says that Epic Warding is restricted to Bards Sorcerers and Wizards. Is this a change in Layo to only be available to Sorcerers and Wizards?
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Dorax Windsmith - 8/8/2006 9:43 PM Am I mistaken, but the NWN manual says that Epic Warding is restricted to Bards Sorcerers and Wizards. Is this a change in Layo to only be available to Sorcerers and Wizards?
The manual is wrong. And we haven't changed it for Layo. Check NWNwiki as Rev indicates.
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Is Epic Mage Armor also only available to Sorcerers and Wizards?
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Yes.
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According to nwnWiki no epic spells are available to bards
I have not tested this
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That's because bard's don't get 9th level spells. I'd imagine a bard with 15 palemaster levels and 34 ranks in spellcraft levels could. But yeah, how many bard/palemasters are there? :)
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Well, they could be like singers of death. You know, singing so bad it wakes the dead.
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*The bard is attacked by three highway bandits so he begins to sing in hope to make the bandits deaf or perhaps cause them pain so they would flee. Instead the bard´s awful song wakes 5 death knights who proceed to beat up the bandits. The bard´s joy from the unexpected turn of events is short lived as the disturbed undead, having quickly finished the bandits, then turn to the bard. Having kicked everyone´s butt they return to their honest and earned rest*
This situation just came to my mind after the last reply, don´t know why :)
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I have a few epic chars on an Aussie server, one being my old Ramanon (20 Wiz/20 Palemaster), the other a death knight (10 fight/ 10 wiz /20pale).
Now Rev summed it up to perfection regarding the prerequisites. However to answer someone elses question Bards can obtain all the Epic Spells if they take Palemaster past lvl 15 with the required SC. THerefore in essence the manual is correct.
I've seen many Bard/PAles and Bard/Pale/RDD's all with the epic spell abilities.
Now Ar7 mentioned it as a Wizards dream spell...well he's absolutely right, its fantastic!!
While we all chat about the possibilities taking Palemaster Classes be warned that it is an extemely hard class to take, especially in layonara. It means you'll be weaker for longer, have less spells, durations, powers etc...However when you get close to lvl 20 it really does start becoming something great. My favorite class through life has been necromancers. I really dont feel it's possible that I could make one and not take the class, just out of personal taste.
Happy hunting
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Talan Va'lash - 8/8/2006 5:43 PM According to nwnWiki no epic spells are available to bards
I have not tested this
Bards are out of luck with default NWN rules applying. I've tested this. On the arena mods bard mixes take 15 PM for epic spells.... usually with some well rp'd paladin levels to boot. 16 pal, 5 bard, 19 PM... good times. Can I submit for that??
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Ar7 - 8/9/2006 4:46 AM *The bard is attacked by three highway bandits so he begins to sing in hope to make the bandits deaf or perhaps cause them pain so they would flee. Instead the bard´s awful song wakes 5 death knights who proceed to beat up the bandits. The bard´s joy from the unexpected turn of events is short lived as the disturbed undead, having quickly finished the bandits, then turn to the bard. Having kicked everyone´s butt they return to their honest and earned rest* This situation just came to my mind after the last reply, don´t know why :)
but the clever bard uses his invisiblity and runs as the undead wake...
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Polak76 - 8/9/2006 8:58 AM
Now Rev summed it up to perfection regarding the prerequisites. However to answer someone elses question Bards can obtain all the Epic Spells if they take Palemaster past lvl 15 with the required SC. THerefore in essence the manual is correct.
I've seen many Bard/PAles and Bard/Pale/RDD's all with the epic spell abilities.
Yes, this is true. In this case however, the actual Bard class does not work toward gaining the epic spells. It only works towards gaining the Pale Master class.
So using my terminology, it is not the Bard class that gives you access to Epic spells. Thus it's correct to state that Bards don't have access to these aforementioned feats.
Pale Masters do, as it is the Pale Master class, regardless of base class, that allows you the access to epic spells.
Just because I know we all love semantics.
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Filatus - 8/8/2006 8:27 PM
But yeah, how many bard/palemasters are there? :)
I'm actually surprised there aren't more, when you stop to think about it. A Pale Master basically emphasizes two things about the caster it is based upon -- combat abilities and summoning (specifically, undead). A Bard is better at combat that the other arcane classes, and his special abilities tend to focus on bolstering allies, which pairs nicely with summoning. Plus, the Bard gets two extra skill points per level, and access to the Use Magic Device ability, which can make up for some of the weaker spellcasting.
Ten levels of Bard (with a CHA of 18) will allow for casting 3 cantrips, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, and 1 4th per day (known: 5/4/4/4/2) -- Pale Master levels give additional spells per day at every other level, which will eventually allow for 5th and 6th level spell casting, though no spells known (the slots can be used for metamagic, however). 10 uses of bardsong (+2 AB, +2 damage, +8 HP, +1 skill, +1 save universal to allies [same values as penalties to enemies with Curse Song]), and a decent smattering of skills, including 10 free ranks of Lore from Bard levels.
By the time you hit level 20, you've picked up all of the non-epic Pale Master features while still having the spells per day of a 15th level Bard. If you focus on buffing spells, you don't have to worry about the reduced save DC.
Under 3.5 rules, this would even make more sense. You'd have the Bard's ability to ignore arcane spell failure in light armor. The Pale Master is upgraded to allow for new spells known, as well as per day, and a greatly improved undead graft as compared to the NWN1 implementation.
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Only thing is... how do you RP that? It would be very difficult, to say the least.
That's my guess as to why there are no palemaster/bards here.... yet.
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Ne'er - 8/9/2006 11:06 AM
Only thing is... how do you RP that? It would be very difficult, to say the least.
That's my guess as to why there are no palemaster/bards here.... yet.
I don't see how it is much different than a Wizard or Sorcerer. On the whole, it would be closer to the Wizard path -- the Bard's study of lore leads him to be facsinated with the undead and the ability to control them. he follows this obsession by persuing arts that most people think are vile and sacreligious. I do note a distinct lack of necromancy spells in the Bard catalog, which could make things a bit more tricky, but it would still be possible.
The main reason I think you don't see them, is that PM appears to be a really, really, hard class to qualify for in Layonara.
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(((Ten levels of Bard (with a CHA of 18) will allow for casting 3 cantrips, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, and 1 4th per day (known: 5/4/4/4/2) -- Pale Master levels give additional spells per day at every other level, which will eventually allow for 5th and 6th level spell casting, though no spells known (the slots can be used for metamagic, however). 10 uses of bardsong (+2 AB, +2 damage, +8 HP, +1 skill, +1 save universal to allies [same values as penalties to enemies with Curse Song]), and a decent smattering of skills, including 10 free ranks of Lore from Bard levels. )))
Unfortunately it doesnt work that way...belive me, I've played with every combination relating to PM.
Bards operate like Sorcerers, ie, via innate spell abilities. When you level every odd number with PM, it wont actually push you to the next spell level. With Wizards however, it will push you to the next spell level but you basically dont learn anything unless you scribe a scroll.
It sounds frustrating but makes sense.
And for alot of you that were not around a while back, there was one Bard/PM online. His name was Nethro and was part of our Corathite faction...actually he dragged me into it.
Funnily enough he was punished by Corath and lost a limb for revealing his identity during the 'Red Fod' incident outside Hlint Crypts....hehe, long live Corath!!
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Ah yes Nethro... hehe that was a looooong time ago, hehe :)
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Polak76 - 8/9/2006 7:01 PM
Unfortunately it doesnt work that way...belive me, I've played with every combination relating to PM.
Fair enough. I was going by the results from the CBC worksheet that helps you plan out a character. I know that the NWN engine can be a bit quirky at times. :)
I still say that Bard/PM would be an excellent combination under the full 3.5 rules, where you would then be able to wear light armor without arcane failure and not only get additional spells per day, but also additional spells known at every other PM level.
Besides, the mental image of an evil, necromantic bard just gives me the giggles.
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Dirgesinger.
"Dirgesingers voice melodies not of celebration and joy, but of sorrow and grief. The seek to spread this melancholy outlook far and wise, believing that only thouse who give in the their sadness can truly understand the world."
Basicly its a PRC for evil bard undeaders, thats the first peragraph in there discreption.
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Yeah, the Bard/PM is a great mix. My Deathknight (Figt10/Wiz10/Pale20) from another server kicks ass. He's got epic still spells 1,2,3 and epic mage armor + warding. With his plate armor, shield and other trinkets his AC when buffed is approx 70. Unfortunately he only gets 3 attacks but his AB is pretty decent. (mind you the enhancements exceed the standard +3 in Layo)
But even saying this the creatures on this server are ridiculously tough. Epic Duergar can critical you for 150+ dam and have approx 600hp's each. Prismatic Dragons....arg!
I've recenly returned casually to Layo and can state from experience that my greatest battles are ones fought at lvl 5 against goblins in the Red caves or Ogres in Haven. Actually I got smoked by the wisp in the swamps trying to grab the essence and couldn't stop laughing. It took me three times to kill it, each with a new tactic...thats priceless.