The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tazmanius on August 21, 2006, 05:20:47 AM
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While pondering the submission and development of a character..I was wondering if it would be possible to have one,preferably a priest who does not follow the existing deities..but believes in a single divine entity...some sort of metaphysical creator...along the same lines as christianity etc.
Wondered what problems could be encountered with this in relation to the gameworld...well not so much gameworld..more could this be considered offensive to the playerbase/gm's.
Also,if there was a potential for approval,i.e a new religion that sees all the existing ones as pagan..what would be needed to submit such to the GM's..?
My way of thinking runs along the lines that..as the old god's fail..the sky has darkened and such...perhaps new religions could come to fruition as the common people search for guidance and salvation...and new hope..as often happens in times of crisis.
This is just in basic form at present to throw open a bit of debat on the matter..and guage opinion.
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Something like this, especially if you're talking about a cleric character, would absolutely have to be approved by Leanthar and EdTheKet.
Clerics derive their powers directly from a deity. For this hypothetical character to be a cleric and have these powers, this deity would have to exist in the pantheon.
Oh, and....the old gods have not failed, nor begun to really. Even though their constellations cannot be seen through the thick clouds that cover Layonara, they are still very much present in the Heavens.
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I like the idea of a new faith appearing though I not sure that it would be a good idea to base it on a major world religion. I think that it could be offensive to people and that if this new religion, is as you say based on christianity, then other players may want to bring in the other major religions, which to me would kinda undermine the whole point of playing layonara. Also if this deity was brought in then it may bring with it prejudice.
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it is always important to separate fantasy from reality. RL religions and the tensions that surround them are probably one the greatest (excuses at any rate) named reason for conflict on the planet. Bringing those into game may cause strife in a harmonious community
Fantasy religions like the ones here on Layo are more akin to simple moral concepts and ideals - fertility, luck, law, thievery etc. Each deity in a fantasy setting holds it own portfolio and the gods wage war amongst themselves and through their followers. In Layo it is easy to see why Toran dislikes Branderback - it is a clash of ideals.
Bringing a monotheistic deity into Layo means the following:
1.) If he is already here and is the one true god, then all the other deities are actually either his servants or pretenders to the throne
2.) If he is a new arrival then he is attempting to usurp all of the existing deities. Your PC may be witness to a unique Layo event. All of the layo deities gathering together, both good and evil, lawfull and chaotic, and then he could watch them go to war with your god who they would attempt to erase from the cosmos. It could be assumed that Coranth or a similar god may stop to pick his teeth with the aforementioned one-gods follower as the smoke settles.
I see no reason though why you couldn't ask Leanthar to let you play a character who believes in only one god. After all the world needs madmen etc. I cant see you getting any clerical spells though.
I actually play a barbarian woman who believes her tribes totem animal the Great Elk is her spirit guide and views him as a minor god. I do not with annoyance that he hasn't actually stopped her gaining any soul stones though......
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Not trying to offend anyone with this concept..just think it would be interesting to rp...a mad prophet etc..
With regard to offending say Christianity..well..technically..all the seperate religions as defined in Layo could be said to cause offence..given that Christianity has a commnadment denying false gods.
With regard to spells..why could a character not gain divine powers from his new god..or from the metaphysical multiverse..could he not be tapping in to latent or hidden resources..or energies generated by the events of the war with Blood etc.Maybe the new entity is the third dragon god?
Like i said..it's just a concept at present..and should there be a chance of any approval then yes..I would work closely with Leanthar and co..to flesh this out etc. so as to not make it overpowerful or offensive.
Just something to further rp and make Layo an even more interesting and diverse place..after all Christianity started with one man(albeit potentially semi-divine)..then grew froma handful..supplanted a mutlti-theistic religion that had been Rome...and now has one third of the world's population nominally following it.
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Dorganath " Oh, and....the old gods have not failed, nor begun to really. Even though their constellations cannot be seen through the thick clouds that cover Layonara, they are still very much present in the Heavens."
Tazmanius "Maybe the new entity is the third dragon god?"
hmm.. *ponders a bit*
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There is simply no way, as far as I see it, that a new religion can appear. At this moment there are various gods that offer extreme powers to their followers and every peasant can see these powers with his own eyes. Clerics of Aeridin acting as healers, Clerics of Vorax acting as great generals able to turn the tide of the battle, Paladins of Toran being the symbol of every virtue for the helpless peasant and the followers of Corath being the curse to the land they walk upon. In this situation it is impossible that a person would begin to believe in an abstract "God" since he won't be able to show anything for it - no powers, magic or abilities.
So I am not saying a new got can appear, I just don't think an abstract creator of universe may come out of nowhere.
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Bear in mind, what I'm about to say reflects the way things are right now....
If you submit a cleric character without a deity, it will not be approved. If you get it approved with a deity and then do not specify that deity on character creation, we will correct that for you when noticed. As things currently stand, you cannot be a cleric and pull from the "multiverse" or whatever. It just doesn't work that way. Your powers come directly from your deity; there are no exceptions. Pulling energies from the "multiverse" might be considered more arcane and/or druidic.
As I said before, for the concept to even begin to have approval, the entity in question must exist in the Layonara pantheon/cosmology, and that of course would go through EdTheKet and Leanthar. Whether it is known publicly or not is another story. RPing another deity or universal entity might be permissible, but playing that character as a cleric will not.
And regarding Christianity...I think the point was to not introduce a Christian-like religion into Layonara, for it might bleed too much from fantasy into reality, prompt other players to create an analog of their own favored religion, and bring all the RL dogmatic conflicts and frictions of such into a game world...where it has no place.
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"Then people pray, a god is born"
I'm ripping that one line from black and white...
I'm adding my two cents, and I strongly agree that your char can't be a cleric.. What may be a grand idea of a time is making a odd little character that is beyond par with a few insane characters in this world, gain a few dozen followers and try to make a new religon through huge ammonuts of RP.
I was planning on making this one totaly insane character that is a bard and worships a god Leanthar :) I wont go into how he'll pull off followers but it may work( OR MAYNOT) work.
Things you may try is going to less civilsed tribes and using things like a lighting storm to tell the barbarians that this is your gods wrath if they do not follow him. Play with ideas, Write up some off the wall back story about your god that is so insane that it becomes sane. Gather followers (good) or start an amy and pillage your way till a new a god accends (evil). There is many ways to make a god and many ways to gather followers.
Just be smart about it
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lunchboxkilla - 8/21/2006 12:11 PM
Things you may try is going to less civilsed tribes and using things like a lighting storm to tell the barbarians that this is your gods wrath if they do not follow him. Play with ideas, Write up some off the wall back story about your god that is so insane that it becomes sane. Gather followers (good) or start an amy and pillage your way till a new a god accends (evil). There is many ways to make a god and many ways to gather followers.
Just be smart about it
Heck, if your character is a Sorcerer, then it is even possible to RP the character believing it himself. The character would just be using arcane spells rather than divine.
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Faldred - 8/21/2006 7:18 PM lunchboxkilla - 8/21/2006 12:11 PM Things you may try is going to less civilsed tribes and using things like a lighting storm to tell the barbarians that this is your gods wrath if they do not follow him. Play with ideas, Write up some off the wall back story about your god that is so insane that it becomes sane. Gather followers (good) or start an amy and pillage your way till a new a god accends (evil). There is many ways to make a god and many ways to gather followers. Just be smart about it
Heck, if your character is a Sorcerer, then it is even possible to RP the character believing it himself. The character would just be using arcane spells rather than divine.
I actually kinda think that using a sorcerer or even a wizard to conjur lightning storms, or use other spells to make people into thinking it's a whole new god is a hell of an idea! The only problem is, that with alot of powerful wizards, clerics, druids etc etc. Such spells become common to the players's characters, and therefor will be hard to show off as acts of god unless you go directly into the new characters (if in their past they havent wittnessed such spells of course) or use it via help of GM's into dazzling peasents and farmers.
Nice idea all in all.
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The reason I say "sorcerer", rather than "wizard", is that the power is innate, rather than learned. As such, it is possible for a charatcer to have built an entire belief system around these innate powers, believing himself or herself to be the avatar of his or her own imagined deity.
Things like arcane spell failure would just be taken as an indication that the god despises the use of armor, or some such.
It's an entirely different story if the character knows no such deity exists, but is still trying to recruit followers...
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I know what you ment but sorc's only. To use them like clerics with only arcane magic only without knowings its birth magic, and believing it was given by a god.
And as I've said, perhaps a false church or just a rather nasty person that knows the truth that theres no real god could be also concidered as a slightly differnt idea. Same result, different motives.
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I somehow immediatly visualized Ozy doing people a "favor" by allowing them knowledge about a secret and forgotten god. *grins* All they need to do to gain the God's favour is listen to Ozy :)
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I haven't laughed so hard in a long time Ar. Chances are he does something similar but theirs nothing secret or forgotten about Aragen, just some insults and expletives along the way. *Giggles* Thou what has me still laughing is any god granting favor instead of disfavor with someone listening to Ozy. He’s a heretic to his fingertips. *stumbles off giggling*
I suspect while possible for someone to raise a simple belief system amongst primitive tribes without gaining dangerous attention. Most of Layonara would scoff at any new deity, and it would instantly attract unwanted attention from clergies ever eager to make certain competition true or false isn’t spread. Making a bid for divine fallowing, could be dangerous and foolish indeed in a world where miracles are somewhat commonplace.
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Faldred, I was thinking exactly the same thing: Sorcerers are the answer to the dilemma.
Though really, having a Neutral-aligned caster... The summons wouldn't fit so well with the idea of some overdeity. Go with Good.
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In addition, the sorcerer's high charisma would be a boon when trying to recruit/convert others.
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Clerics derive their powers directly from a deity. For this hypothetical character to be a cleric and have these powers, this deity would have to exist in the pantheon.
Dorg is correct. And we will not be adding deities to the pantheon just like that. We almost had a new one (or two) during the last campaign and that took a large part of that campaign, so no quick ascensions to godhood for new arrivals, sorry.
As for a sorceror claiming he's following a new god. He'd be found out quite fast, as it'd be arcane magic and every decent mage could see the difference between somebody casting arcane spells or somebody casting divine ones.
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EdTheKet - 8/22/2006 12:55 PM
As for a sorceror claiming he's following a new god. He'd be found out quite fast, as it'd be arcane magic and every decent mage could see the difference between somebody casting arcane spells or somebody casting divine ones.
Oh, I never said it would be effective, just that it would be a possible way to RP the scenario. To a certain degree, I can imagine it would be quite fun to RP a disturbed individual who thought he was the forerunner of a new religion only to have people tell him how deluded he is. Of course, for a while, this would only reinforce a "martyr" complex, having to deal with the scorn of followers of the "lesser" or "false" gods, etc.
He may even evangelize, telling other CHA-based casters that their so-called "arcane" power is really the divine gift of this "new" god, they just didn't know it before. Wizards, who use study, rather than innate ability, to access the power, may be thought of as heretics, even.
Eventually, the character either makes converts, becomes isolated/ostracized (including going just plain nuts), or realizes the error of his ways...
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He may even evangelize, telling other CHA-based casters that their so-called "arcane" power is really the divine gift of this "new" god, they just didn't know it before
Lucinda? :)
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Lucinda?
Er... yeah. Something like that. 8)
I actually chuckled out loud when I read that, don't know why...
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Hmmm, interesting thought, sort of as an aside, what if the Sorcs got together as a faction of Lucinda? Poor down trodden Sorcs always getting snubbed by those uppity wizards!
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Mind you, if a sorceror went around saying that his powers were granted by the "One True God", and it wasn't Lucinda, I could see one of two things happening. Either a) on a day with a perfectly clear sky, no chance of rain, a lightning bolt would smash down from the heavens and leave a little puddle of cooling glass where he'd stood moments before, or b) all his "divine powers" would suddenly vanish.
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If every character that made use of the Weave was a Lucindite, even Corathites would be wearing blue. ;)
Just because one is an arcane caster doesn't make one a worshipper of Lucinda. In fact, where is all the Aragen (or null) love from the wizards? Most would respect the Lady of course, and after a fashion most do, but many feel that being arcane means being Lucindite, which is not the case. All magic, divine or arcane, comes from the Weave... but you don't see priests of other faiths sitting at the feet of the Dawnwoven.
As for the downtrodden sorcerors in the fold of the Lady of Spells, there are at least two Grandmasters that are sorcerors, one of them leading the others as the Broken Rune. :)
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In fact, where is all the Aragen (or null) love from the wizards?
Yes, where is the Aragen love? Ifion the Aragenite actually has a prepared argument as to why mages, and anyone else, should follow Aragen rather than Lucinda. Aragen is unfriendly towards Lucinda, and Ifion has a character trait that makes him particularly dislike all things Lucinda. And that was before he was thrown out of the Tower in Spellgard.
If you're ever bored, ask him about Lucinda. Maybe he can change the statistics one person at a time:
Active Aragenites: 8
Active Lucindites: 44
Clerics of Aragen: 3
Clerics of Lucinda: 11
I'm not even going to mention the temple donations...
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Temple donations to Aragen are improving though.
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I agree with Acacea on this one. I'd say Lucinda is probably the most popular goddess (or at least one of them), but that doesn't make her the 'all mighty' and potential ruling goddess of Layo.
And if there WAS an all mighty god or goddess then how would that effect all the other deities and their followers? (It would obviously undermine all of them).So, would the all mighty god or goddess take charge of the other deities? How would this effect the other deities clerics? Would the followers and clericsof the 'all mighty' deity get special treatment or powers?
I don't think there should be a supreme ruler in Layo; it just seems like it would down the spirit of Layo because we have so many different deities to choose from and all having their own ideals. It basically does keep things equal between the deities. And yes, where is the Aragenite love? ;)
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That concept's not really all that much different from Zeus/Jupiter from Earth mythologies or Ao from forgotten realms. The "boss" god didn't really undermine any of them as such. Each still had their individual portfolios...just that Zeus and Ao were like the Chairman of the Board.
Buuuuuuuut....such an entity doesn't exist in the Layonara pantheon, so as far as discovering such a deity and/or reviving a forgotten religion is not likely to happen at all, nor is such an entity likely to supplant the existing pantheon (short of a hostile overthrow)...and if such a thing did come to pass, it would take a looong time. What's more likely (but still not anything that will happen quickly) is that a deity may emerge, ascend or return (i.e. one of the dragon gods that left long ago), but don't hold your breath.
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hmm.......*rubs chin in deep thought*......a new religion, a fake religion, created by chaotic forces to controll the unknowing masses and wielding them in to a weapon against order.
Fueled by Arcane powers (explaining any "clerical power"), perhaps something to do with the "revamped" sky.
a religion spreading like wildfire, engulfing Layonara.
each of it's temples preaching that "the sky has marked the coming of *insert name here*"
*looks smug after blurting a few barely cohearent scentences*
wait a minute!?
*reads over the last paragraph*
uh.......
*knows that this story sounds familiar but can't quite place it*
i'll get back to you on that
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@Tazmanius
I am thinking, you should go for your own style, even if you aren't allowed a cleric with genuine divine powers, who is to say a bard/sorcerer or maybe even druid couldn't start out their own little cult? Even if you are likley not going to be inventing a new god that will join the existing pantheon overnight, you can probably have a lot of fun RPing an attempt to decieve, and profit from people who are having doubts about the gods.
Not every man woman and child in layonara are strong willed faithful clerics and paladins etc.
There should be a rather significant portion of tired people out there. The war against blood, the fall of pranzis... the toll on lives on all continents... except maybe voltrex... Have the gods abandoned the people?
Perhaps you would be allowed to start a cult and worship your golden olive tree or marble elephant. Or as you suggested some single entity.
I would say there are certainly some layonarans out there that just might be willing to try this "new age stuff" ;)
Even though a self conjured divinity will never just appear, chances are some of the existing gods might try and claim the portion of worshipers... if they are many enough to be worth bothering with. As you might have noticed, not all of the gods are living on 7th street of haloishness.
And if not that, you could probably make money on the people that worship your entity...
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I haven't read all the posts, but I'd like to kick in my ten cents worth.
Just for ref: In the original creation of D&D there were many gods but there was also AO, the "supreme creator" if you will. Me and a buddy of mine got on this subject and I chuckled. When he asked me what it was I found funny, I told him, "AO, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the one true God."
He was stunned with this response, "You know, I never even thought about that." And he had played since first edition was new.
As for my ten cents worth:
I could see where a new deity could come into play, but that would take much more time than you would normally think. A new god or goddess would have to get the word out. Then the would be diety would have to wait it out and see if more followers hit the band wagon. A god ain't got no power if he/she ain't got no followers.
Then once enough followers voiced themselves, then Leanther and the team would consider if the god/goddess would be allowed.
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Heh...what was the name of that god in SOU? The one whose followers lived in the desert? The god who never actually did anything? It might be fun having a cleric who followed a similar sort of god, one who didn't actually exist. Of course the said cleric wouldn't be able to use any of his powers but his excuse could be something on the lines of the god was above all that or wanted us to sort out our own problems etc.
Might be fun especially if he was a evangelical type of fellow :)
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steverimmer - 8/26/2006 2:31 PM
what was the name of that god in SOU? The one whose followers lived in the desert? The god who never actually did anything? It might be fun having a cleric who followed a similar sort of god, one who didn't actually exist.
Said god in the desert was actually Ao, who is a FR god, but he isn't a standard god since he''s like the overgod of the entire FR pantheon. Although it would be interesting if someone claimed to have found something similar in Layo...
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You know what we need? The patron god of Bards... Banjo the Clown!
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Variable - 8/26/2006 10:35 PM You know what we need? The patron god of Bards... Banjo the Clown!
maybe certain bards, im sure i know of one elderly bard who might not fit the banjo the clown dogma hehe
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I'm a Reformed Banjoist myself. *nods twice*
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Variable - 8/26/2006 4:35 PM
You know what we need? The patron god of Bards... Banjo the Clown!
I've never laughed so hard in all my life...
ALL THOSE WHO KNOWS OF BANJO THE CLOWN...RAISE YOUR HAND
**raises both hands**
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i'm an orthadox Banjoist, his Wrath grows daily >:/
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The Cult of Banjulhu...
And in his toybox in R'lyeah, dead Banjo lies dreaming...
Here's a question, though. Who would be the Bardic god of Layo? Ilsare?
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Most commonly, yes.
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 8/28/2006 6:48 AM
The Cult of Banjulhu...
And in his toybox in R'lyeah, dead Banjo lies dreaming...
Here's a question, though. Who would be the Bardic god of Layo? Ilsare?
Wha...What are you talking about....It's Banjo...BANJO THE CLOWN!!!!
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what we are forgetting is that whether you are a reform, orthadox, Banjhuluist, or any other sect of Banjoism, our true enemy is Roy Greenhilt
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Sects? I follow the one true Banjo. There is no other. As long as you believe, that's what the message is...just believe...
*dances around fire naked, yelling "I'M INVISIBLE!!!"*