The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => CNR Suggestions/Discussion => Topic started by: Faldred on August 25, 2006, 04:43:37 AM
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As always, the standard disclaimers for my crazy ideas apply. :) If the system works the way it currently does for balance reasons, please ignore the following completely: Several classes, due to weapons proficiency, are unable to collect certain types of CNR or to engage in certain crafting deats due to the weapons proficiency requirement on the tool involved. Without changing how these tools are defined, I think there's a relatively simple way to allow these classes to use the restricted items.
Laborer's Gloves Bonus Feat: Weapon Proficiency Simple Bonus Feat: Weapon Proficiency Martial Attack Penalty: -8
[/list]This would allow the character to equip the items in question while making them pretty much useless for wielding combat weapons. I thought about making a damage penalty instead of or in addition to the to-hit penalty, but that would make them useless for mining ore or chopping wood.
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The classes that cannot wield harvesting tools can burn a feat, if they really want to go that route, or hire someone to harvest for them. Druids should never take such feats, nor take advantage of such items, as their class weapons are a matter of oaths and dogma, not ability.
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As I stated up front, if the system works from a balance standpoint, then just ignore the suggestion. :)
To the specific critiques:
With regards to burning a feat, I thought that from previous discussions, it was undesireable to put players in the position to have to use feats for crafting purposes.
I also agree absolutely that certain characters (whether by class, diety, order, or other background) should not use something like this from an RP perspective.
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*shivers* -8 AB now thats nasty
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crazedgoblin - 8/25/2006 10:58 AM
*shivers* -8 AB now thats nasty
That's the idea... these aren't supposed to be used for combat.
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An attack bonus (positive or negative) on gloves only matters for unarmed attacks. If you equip a weapon it is ignored.
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Talan Va'lash - 8/25/2006 2:36 PM
An attack bonus (positive or negative) on gloves only matters for unarmed attacks. If you equip a weapon it is ignored.
Ah. That would be a flaw, wouldn't it. :o
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i know its meant to be there but still its *shiver*
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Sorry for my ignorance but can you explain what burning a feat is?
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Spending your "feat" points on level up to get a feat that is otherwise useless. E.g. the mage getting the martial weapons proficiency to use crafting items when most likely they would have no need to weilding that 2h sword as well.
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ah ok thanks
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I'm pro the "burning the feat" to craft
I see with these gloves they can be overly abused in ways no one would think of.. These should be gained through GMs to druids ONLY. Maybe even flaggd as a quest item so you cant drop it, trade it, give it away.
If a mage wants to mine he's gonna need to learn how to hold a pick axe.
The AB can be nulled out with a weapon.. So I was thinking of a high stat hit that would nearly cripple a said druid While crafting... HP loss. Slowed, somethign that would make you not want to use it in combat other than a -8 AB
I'm thinking a huge loss in Dex or something else, maybe -50 HP (though thses maybe gloves of Suicide for low levels) or better yet loss of spell slots.
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Why would a Druid need gloves like this? I'm kinda lost.
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Yeah um....druids are exactly the reason why this is a bad idea. Druids have no business using a hatchet or a pick. Calling it a "tool" rather than a weapon is skirting around the issue of druidic oaths and dogma.
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What about rogues, wizards, sorcerers, monks, and all the others who can't mine, or, in some cases, even chip gems?
You could even limit it to those classes, and you may as well throw in Bard. That'd cover the UMD hole.
As for penalties... Let's say the death penalties: -4 to all stats. That would really discourage using them for anything but mining.
Or, y'know, we could drop the weapon nonproficiency haks that came up in discussion a while back into the module, but the compatability issues I imagine would be a nightmare. Bugs galore and such.
This way's easier.
Item Attributes:
Only Usable By: Rogue
Only Usable By: Wizard
Only Usable By: Sorcerer
Only Usable By: Monk
Only Usable By: Bard
Ability Penalty: -4 STR
Ability Penalty: -4 DEX
Ability Penalty: -4 CON
Ability Penalty: -4 INT
Ability Penalty: -4 WIS
Ability Penalty: -4 CHA
How's that strike you?
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LoL.. would be fun to watch a wizard try to mine with any of the gloves stated above.. -8 AB "shivers" or the -4 str. Even with haste, and GMW on the pick it would be realy hard work for the wizard. As I see it it wouldn't be worth the trouble. Same thing with rogues. they can't buff themselves to become better in mining and with penalties on their AB and/or str. they would do a poor job. Pay a half giant to do the job instead ;)
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Like Frelinder said...the AB hit and/or stat penaldy would make use by the intended classes almost pointless.
Mining and chopping take attack rolls. Damage is important, because it not only determines when you actually get a piece of CNR but also because trees and rocks have DR. A low STR wizard would have to pray for a critical hit just to damage the thing most likely, as he'd take at least a -2 damage penalty right off the top (assuming a -4 STR penalty and 10 base strength) and then have to overcome 5/- DR. That's a need to effectively roll 8 points of damage just to do 1 point of damage to the rock/tree....and that's IF he can hit the darn thing with a low Wizard AB and the stat penalty and/or the AB penalty.
It's just not practical.
I'm seriously unsure why it's so difficult though for such classes to buy that kind of CNR off of others, or work out some kind of trade agreement, to get the things they can't normally get. I know lots of crafters who have done this, and dare I say, I believe this system was designed with that in mind.
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 8/27/2006 10:31 PM
all the others who can't mine, or, in some cases, even chip gems?
Is this an exaggeration or a mistake? Gems can be chipped with the gem chisel, which is based on the dagger, which is a weapon every character class can use.
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Gulnyr - 8/31/2006 12:58 PM
Is this an exaggeration or a mistake? Gems can be chipped with the gem chisel, which is based on the dagger, which is a weapon every character class can use.
I thought monks couldn't use daggers... Then again, I've never played one, so go figure.
My mistake.
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Understandable. No problem.
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Gulnyr - 8/31/2006 12:58 PM
Stephen_Zuckerman - 8/27/2006 10:31 PM
all the others who can't mine, or, in some cases, even chip gems?
Is this an exaggeration or a mistake? Gems can be chipped with the gem chisel, which is based on the dagger, which is a weapon every character class can use.
Collecting raw gemstone requires the gem mining pick, which is based on the light pick, not a dagger. The gem chisel is used for cutting or grinding gems.
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The gem chisel can also be used to mine gems.
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Weeblie - 9/1/2006 8:38 AM
The gem chisel can also be used to mine gems.
Really? You learn something new every day...
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You wouldn't believe how happy my rogue character was when I was told that.
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darkstorme - 9/3/2006 12:04 AM
You wouldn't believe how happy my rogue character was when I was told that.
Heheh, oh, I would. Then again, I was the one who told you, and you giggled like a schoolgirl with pure, unadulterated joy.
Or something like that.
Anyhow, I suppose the message is this: It's not reasonable to give everyone the ability to do anything, especially if they won't do it very well. Er... Or something.
I'm going to go get some sleep.
Buy your CNR from those who can get it!
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if only because it helps build the community through roleplaying the transactions out, and the interdependance on others to help cover our weaknesses, while using our strengths to cover other's weaknesses
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Gulnyr - 8/31/2006 9:58 AM
Stephen_Zuckerman - 8/27/2006 10:31 PM
all the others who can't mine, or, in some cases, even chip gems?
Is this an exaggeration or a mistake? Gems can be chipped with the gem chisel, which is based on the dagger, which is a weapon every character class can use.
Sacrid fist?
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One point to you. Still, it's not that the Sacred Fist can't use a dagger, but that he won't use any equipable weapons or tools. It's an oath (and a NWN limitation). So minus one half point.
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This comes back again to the point: If your oaths prevent you from using Item X, why should we create an item that allows one to bypass that? Once more, hire someone to harvest the CNR or chose another craft.
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Then again, the chisel isn't a weapon. It's a tool. It's technically a dagger, but that's a limitation of game mechanics. Even a pencil's a Punching Dagger, held correctly.
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I can see the point in not allowing some classes use of items that they shouldn't be allow to. I can see the unfairness of having to burn a feat to be able to craft items. Creating an item to allow these classes that do want to craft might unbalance the game. So why not make a CDQ item that will allow them to use a specific item to gather the CNR. For example, a wizard who wants to gather wood to craft scrolls could go on CDQ to learn how to hold a woodcutters axe. This way, the GMs are aware of someone wants to craft the item and decide if that character should/would be able to learn the item.
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This (http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11926&posts=1&start=1) is a post regarding the rules for CDQs. I don't speak with an official voice, but I think gathering CNR would be considered a minor thing, and not the kind of change to a character that would require DM help or intervention.
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Gulnyr - 9/17/2006 2:46 PM
One point to you. Still, it's not that the Sacred Fist can't use a dagger, but that he won't use any equipable weapons or tools. It's an oath (and a NWN limitation). So minus one half point.
I actually do not play a sacred fist, nor do I know of any active ones. I just know the rules say they can never pick up a weapon again. I was assuming that the game mechanics prevetned it, not that it was just RP. Makes sense that it is just rp though.
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I think a cool idea would to have a crafting feat.
Crafting expertise: Weapon proficiency: Heavy pick, +1 to all crafting rolls.
I would have much rather given my character above feat then a martial weapons proficiency.
Aeon
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I always liked the idea of making certain feats for crafting. So you can actually build a craftsman.
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Not to mention that any item that gives such a wide range of ability penalties can be abused to get more Xp off of items that would otherwise be too easy to craft. Like the people who batch-craft Essense of Speeds because they're easy to gather. On a related side note, any item with those two feat bonuses would have a substantial level requirement as well, I assume, just because giving a feat on an item has always made high-priced gear.
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In terms of wizards collecting CNR, I have seen them use magic-missle for mining. Handy dandy. Does anyone know if any other spells work in this way?
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call lightning does, but its annoying for a brownie druid casting it on the goblin cheif and cutting off a load of ore with it lol
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gilshem ironstone - 9/28/2006 1:21 PM
In terms of wizards collecting CNR, I have seen them use magic-missle for mining. Handy dandy. Does anyone know if any other spells work in this way?
Please note that it is against the server rules to do that. Tell the person not to or contact a DM.
Edit: Hm... I can't find it written anywhere... But that's at least how I understood it after having talked with DMs on IRC. Might be good if someone could confirm this. :)
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gilshem ironstone - 9/28/2006 6:21 AM In terms of wizards collecting CNR, I have seen them use magic-missle for mining. Handy dandy. Does anyone know if any other spells work in this way?
This is indeed against server rules, and common sense should say that this is not to be permitted.
However, this exploit should now be closed. If you see this happening again, you really should report the person doing it to a GM.
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what if the druid could forage for stones? just like wood but for metal (not gems as they can use tools for this) this way you dont need new gloves n such and works the same for wood, and druids cannot exploit this. and i dont mean they harvest a whole vein but a few bits here and there type thing.
or perhaps a item in the craft vendor only usable for druids like a stone..and like foraging with tinder it has a time limit. and as a rp thing it could me made that a druid calls forth a elemental to shift the ground to give chunks of metal or something along them lines..i was going to say custom make a spell or wand to similar effects but this would most likely be exploited unless theres a time frame intergrated somewhere....
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Druids can equip an gem chisel, so I don't see why this would be necessary. The chisel is just as effective for gem mining as the small pick, which druids cannot equip.
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yes i know that..i meant for metal etc copper, tin etc...
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Oh...in that case...why would a druid pursue metal crafting? It's pretty artificial, when it comes down to it, and I'd think it was pretty odd for a druid to engage in a craft like that.
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i dont see why they cant use it for rings and such..as there were rings only druids could use if i remember correctly.
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They can wear rings just fine. That wasn't the question.
Why would a druid, knowing what druids are all about, pursue a craft as artificial as metal working (smelting, weapon crafting, armor crafting)? I don't see how it fits into druidic dogma, really. Foraging wood at least makes a certain amount of sense. Coaxing ore out of the earth to refine in an inherently destructive process seems rather undruidic to me.
What am I missing?
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oh no i know what u mean..but then wouldnt rings of natural slendor be well redundant? only the druid can make them, but if smelting the metal into a mold is against the dogma..who could possibly make such a item??. also burning wood to make charcoal so you can cast neutralize poison would be a inherently destructive process also wouldnt it?
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It's not really whether worked metal is natural or not. the argument can be made that it is a natural process, as metal is a part of nature, intelligent creatures are a part of nature, so intelligent creatures being part of nature using part of nature means that such tools are part of nature. The key factor here is that druids take oaths to not use metallic armor and weapons save for the scimitar. It's about the oath, it's not about the nature-y or not nature-y-ness of it. Also, jewelry is fine.
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yeah, i didnt say anything about armour or weapons( or jewellery)..but making ingots in a mold still requires a bit of smelting to bend metal even tho its not considered smelting in the NWN mechanics. all i was say really is maybe there could be a way for druids to be able to pick up some metal without hiring others to do it for them. some people say a druid shouldnt chip at a vein for metal, yet they chip at gems in the ground...but yeah its not about druids making armour or weapons but rings and such...
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The gold isn't smelted into a mold, it needs to already be smelted into ingots. However, in order for someone to get up to actually be able to smelt gold to ingots, one has to smelt a lot of copper, tin and iron. So the druid would have to knowingly do a whole lot of smelting to get to that point. It would be more dogmatically appropriate to have someone supply the pre-smelted gold.
Charcoal is created by the burning of wood yes, but there's also a very natural process involved, one that nature does on its own with great frequency in the form of forest fires. Destructive, yes, but in that destruction is an important component to renewal of the forests themselves.
Removing ore from the earth takes from it without giving anything back. There is no balance. Smelting removes impurities from the ore but those impurities are discarded. There is no balance. Burned wood serves a purpose, whether it is for a spell component or to simply refertilize the soil.
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In other words, buy the rings from someone else and enchant them if you want to make rings of natural splendor.
I could very much see a druid shaping gems (there are many other uses of gems than just in metal like wands and such.) And you can always buy ingots from people.
probably more than half of classes can't mine ore unless they take special feats for it. Druids have a special work around for wood since it's very much fitting with the concept of the class. Since working metal is the antithesis of the concept of the class they definitely won't get a special work around for it.