The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Polak76 on October 31, 2006, 08:03:43 PM
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Well it hasn't been all that long RPing my new Corathite and as usual I'm already getting the typical metagaming issues I used to get a while back.
I would just like to remind people to rethink their characters attitude towards others whom we all know OOC worship an evil or unliked god yet IG have no idea. Many of you may argue this but I promise you it happens all to often.
This not only occurs to me but other friends I RP with on our Time zone. Each of them have also commented on similar issues. I'm not wishing to single anyone out, nor am I angry, I'm simply a little disappointed when people metagame to give their characters an edge or buff their ego's.
Now dont get me wrong, I'm all for people hating my characters. Thats the fun part.
I just don't like when I meet someone for the first time whom has no idea about my char, yet seems to already hate me because in reality they've seen under server status 'Corath' as my Deity.
Additioanlly even though you might hate a person's dry attitude, sarcasm or unwillingness to aid others, it does not mean you've learnt their Deity or allegiencs.
Hate for the right reasons and we'll all have some fun.
Cheers,
Polak76
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Seconded and agreed. Come on, part of the fun is finding these things out in-game, if you ever do. And not knowing's just as fun if not more.
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Agreed on the part about metagaming. Remember that we are looking at opening more up to evil alignments once we chance into Version 3 og Layonara. However, such an opening will require all of us to be able to handle characters with these alignments in a mature way. If that is not possible and metagaming continues to happen all too often I am confident that the restrictions will be put back into place.
@ Polak: To the corathites I will say this though. The way you dress, your voice sets, the spells you use and your physical descriptions often give you away miles away. That a character accuses you of being a corathite does not necessarily mean he knows you are one - still he finds you look like one and screams "CORATHITE". A reasonable thing to do for many characters, and something that is in the human nature - scream first and think later.
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Yep. Great points Harlas. *points to his link below in self-deprecation that only those that know the movie Blazing Saddles will understand*
Agreed on the metagaming, but there's a learning curve to it. And as Layo is right now, people just aren't used to how to interact in a fashion conducive to opposing alignments. There's just no exposure to it right now, so any notion of evil will require a lot of tolerance on the part of the individual roleplaying their evil nature *or* their devotion to evil dieties. I agree that in v3 the learning curve will steepen and the community will get used to the varying alignments and/ or afilliations. But it will of course be a rough introduction if it's cold turkey in this pool.
There's just no exposure for folks to learn how to approach this, so picking out character descriptions, general behavior, and yes, LORE knowledge the character shouldn't have... it's going to be exaggerated in the community on the whole. I think the Layo basis up to now is that we're all on the same side. So until it's a community standard, well into v3 I'm guessing, the player of something outside the norm is always going to have to be the better man.
I actually looked at this post about 4 hours ago and went to LORE to check your character descriptions. But they were wonderfully vague... so yeah, it's being the bigger man and educating the community in the most friendly manner possible.
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I avoid the "Character Dev" thread so I can avoid knowing things my Character would not. But when looking on 'server status" the gods jump right out. Mabey it would it be possible to stop displaying diety selections there or anyplace else.
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Perhaps it would be possible to allow for players to set preferences to the Server Status page? They could then collapse things such as, class, level, deity, or alignment whenever they wanted to and could keep it that way for as long as their cookies were "fresh." (Meh, I hate stale cookies.) :) Just a thought.
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Harlas is right
For some characters if they see people Dressed in Black and/or red. speaking or acting cruley or maliciously or even acting 'emo' then they'll assume CORATHITE!. Also, if you summon (if you're a caster or cleric class) some evil dog or something, they'll Assume CORATHITE.
this reminds me of Rhynn in the underdark watching a certain character summon a Maralith. It also reminds me of a new instance with a character where Rhynn saw her summon a fiendish dog, and yet DIDNT say anything about her nature. Those types of things can give this all away.
However collapsable deity/class/alignment columns would be awesome
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Harlas Ravelkione - 10/31/2006 4:19 PM
@ Polak: To the corathites I will say this though. The way you dress, your voice sets, the spells you use and your physical descriptions often give you away miles away. That a character accuses you of being a corathite does not necessarily mean he knows you are one - still he finds you look like one and screams "CORATHITE". A reasonable thing to do for many characters, and something that is in the human nature - scream first and think later.
Sorry but I don't agree (hehe) that this is the case and I have to back Polak here that people can't help themselves but metagame in these instances. Whether it be because they want a confrontation to spice things up or because its interesting for RP or because here finally they have a chance to really play their good alignment in a way they know how...people do it.
People could just as easily scream, thieves, assassins, bandits, gypsies, slavers, pirates, scary people etc, etc, etc But people scream Corathite because they metagame. I have started a new char a Priest of Corath called Sipher. Only one person on the server so far has he divulged that information to. Corathites are not stupid (for the most part anyway) They dont go around blaring their allegiances out to everyone, they are like drow, secretive, hidden. PLenty of honourable PC's on Layo walk around in black suits or clothing and peolpe dont go accussing them of being Corathites do they?
No, its going to happen no matter what..people cannot help themselves but do it. The good Corathites will know how to avoid confrontation where possible and not to divulge their allegiances.
I suppose everyone thinks Erag is a Corathite?
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Dezza - 11/1/2006 9:52 PM
I suppose everyone thinks Erag is a Corathite?
You mean he's not? Eeek!!
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Dezza - 11/1/2006 2:52 PM
I suppose everyone thinks Erag is a Corathite?
Xeenite. Saw him in the tavern once with a skin tight red and purple suit. That and the creepy silent staring thing...
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Dezza - Sorry but I don't agree (hehe) that this is the case and I have to back Polak here that people can't help themselves but metagame in these instances. Whether it be because they want a confrontation to spice things up or because its interesting for RP or because here finally they have a chance to really play their good alignment in a way they know how...people do it. People could just as easily scream, thieves, assassins, bandits, gypsies, slavers, pirates, scary people etc, etc, etc But people scream Corathite because they metagame.QUOTE]
You got me wrong here. I agree that they SHOULD be all what you just stated, but too often they are not. Perhaps your character and Polak's characters among others are exceptions, but there are just as many if not more who's appearance, behavior and what they write into their physical descriptionsgive them away on first glance. Using the read gleam visual effect for weapons is another hint, together with strange fangs on the armour, whips and cruel looking weapons. I am not saying they could not be followers of Ca'duz, Mist or Lucinda for all I know, but that is simply not the first thought that hits me when I see something like that.
What I don't understand is why people don't dress totally plain, like the rest of us. Don't give your characters exaggerated and evil descriptions, don't use the insane or evil voicesets - let us discover what you're about! That results in more fun for you and for us.
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Harlas Ravelkione - 11/1/2006 5:17 PM
What I don't understand is why people don't dress totally plain, like the rest of us. Don't give your characters exaggerated and evil descriptions, don't use the insane or evil voicesets - let us discover what you're about! That results in more fun for you and for us.
Yes! And then you think they are your friends... until they turn evil and become your arch enemy....
*pretends to wipe a tear* Oh, how I miss Ramanon. Wonder if Lalaith will ever discover (not by metagaming of course!) That he has a son, whom she can torment instead....
Seriously though, a lot of great things said here in these posts. I think Polak76 has a lot of good points.
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Metagaming ruins a lot of fun for everyone, no matter who your character worships. But if you play an evil character or someone involved in confidential activities, it can really be nearly game-breaking. So I agree with everything that Polak said.
But disagree strongly with Dezza. Not to point anywhere but "please..." is all I can think to say. It's easy to SAY "they aren't going to divulge..." while someone is strutting around in black insulting people with skulls on their shields and sitting around Hlint going "DARKNESS TAKE YOU!" to anyone that stops to chat. I'm not saying they all act like this but I have seen this behavior lauded as good roleplay and anyone who might respond with "creepy Corathite..." branded with METAGAMER! despite what I'd like to quote from Stephen's signature as, "Looks like a duck, acts like a duck, has the word 'duck' written over it..."
My character for instance has rubbed shoulders with thieves or assassins or creepy people and yes she has also approached people who she thinks might be a follower of say, Branderback, in a discreet fashion. She does NOT like Corathites and she has a lot of criteria that they amusingly fill repeatedly...some of them are mistakes and are not Corathites at all, but it happens.
Yes, Erag has actually been looked at by a few people oddly, but at least he's just drunk in the Wild Surge and not screaming about BLOOD BLOOD GLORIOUS BLOOD or about your souls being taken by the dark lord, nor shown any obvious signs of necromancy. I am in complete agreement that metagaming sucks but saying that they haven't or don't ever act obvious just because they're not SUPPOSED to is in blatant opposition to things that have occurred and I am not at all apologetic for my character having anyone on a list because of it. :)
I have met neither of the two Corathites mentioned in this thread and so obviously am not specifically referring to them, but just because you're being discreet doesn't mean that everyone is.
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My corathite will wear pink lacy dresses, a wide sunbonnet, carry a pink parasol use the giggly girl voice set...
... and be male. lol no, just kidding.
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but on the serious side, what are the pro's to having the deity thing visible on lore by everyone? I don't think thats something that needs to be visible to every ooc at all.
Of course you can find it in the submission but thats more work and the hope is that if its more work people wont do it. Also they won't accidentally metagame just because they see it whenever they look at server stats.
I think level and class should be on the server stats because I often use that when deciding which character to play or what I'm going to do when I log on since if everyone thats on is lower than level 12 then I won't bring talan on and try to get a party to go adventuring since, that wont work well. But deity doesn't need to be visible to all.
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Well how about this:
I dress Alandric in pink with a yellow sash, carry a rose and walk around singing? Actually thats not a bad idea!
In some instances though I can agree with Harlas about the attire, but I've also made neutral characters whom are rude, wear black and generally are cheeky. In these circumstances people still warm to them and never react the same way.
It's not a big deal at the moment just irritating. If someone openly metagames I usually send them a tell asking why they did such a thing or how they knew about this or that. Sometimes I'm the one who is wrong and correct myself. Usually it is sorted then and there, though some others let it get to their heads or take the tell personally.
I'm really keen for people hating me and that will come in due time. Also I love the idea's for version three and I only hope that characters participate in a mature fashion as mentioned above.
I generally find that most Corathites conduct themselves very discretely. Only one person from memory (Nethro) conducted himself out of fashion in hlint. He paid the price (had his arm severed off) whch was delievered to him by the corathites in typical fashion.
The other thing i like to comment on as well is about the summons. Yes a Corathite may summon a demon, but does that really mean that those watching can instantly depict that character as being a Corathite? Do they really know about the Corath Deity let alone any other Deities? I know on page 200 and something in the players handbook there is a list of summons each deity gets, but how does a character know this. Whats to say this character is simply a demon worshipper with no deity yet somehow has learnt to summon demons?
What I'm getting at is that we all read about all the religions in Layo OOC. We know all about their allies and enemies, who they worship, what alignment, summons etc...But do our characters really know about these religions in full detail? Does everyone in RL know all elements of Islam, Buddism, Roman Cathoilc etc? Yes we know minor details, maybe some more than others, but in the world of Layonara the same sort of attention is needed. This applies to all deities.
Anyway I better get back to work.
Cheers,
Polak76
L
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Erag DOES however occassionally walk around with a knife and cut huge bloody gashes in his scalp like Abdullah the Butcher used to do. Even if it isn't Corathite, it's still unsanitary.
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Now that Yü is wearing something different I am getting a better response out of people. It comes down to the outfit.
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Hehehe...nice to hear from you again Lalaith!
Yes, please come and torture Ramanons son! I do miss thos old times.
cheers,
Polak76
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Do they really know about the Corath Deity let alone any other Deities?
Here's where not having the Knowledge (Religion) skill in the game hurts. In these cases (where OOC knowledge of the handbook may or may not be in the character's head), I either ignore the knowledge or else say, in my case, my bard/priest might know that, and do a lore skill check.
Oh, and about Erag. I cast Divine Relation on him once, just to see. It came back as Enemy of Aragen. I don't think he's a Voraxian (no axe), a Misty (no chaos), or a Xeenite (no fun), so that narrows it down. (Actually, I have no idea how Divine Relation would work on NPCs, if at all, but it was still fun).
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Perhaps dropping the characters deity from server status would help a bit with metagaming. I often look at server status to see if friends are on and it makes the characters who worship evil gods really standout. I find myself saying to friends, "geesh, look at all the Corathites." It does make it a bit more challenging to avoid metagaming.
For that matter, does the character level really need to be on the general server status? It seems like the only thing players really require from server status is a chance to see if their buddies are online.
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Disagreed again... I don't actually think "Corathite!!" when I think of demons, no, and neither does my character (Black Wizard, possibly, run of the mill Corathite, not really, and she's never accused anyone of being a Black I don't think), but you don't really need a huge amount of information to have a stereotype. That's the whole point. Priests and followers aren't really SUPPOSED to act the way everyone pictures them, are they?
Your common fighter is not likely going to know the hierarchy of the church or the summons or common rituals of the god. But Corath is such a stereotypical or cliche DOOM OF THE WORLD EVIL GOD kind of guy that I have no doubt they carry some fear and stories about them, whether or not they follow the handbook's definition of the church. "Maybe it's a baby eating Corathite that summons demons in the dark of the moons!" "Oh, no, just some other demon guy."
If some do eat babies and summon demons during the dark of the moon doesn't make it my fault they adhere to it. :)
I did find a lot of people metagaming the location of their temple, which was really annoying and a little disappointing because of who was involved--running across a door in a very large area really does not automatically make its owner and affiliation obvious, in my opinion.
Regarding the demons thing, other than not necessarily screaming Corathite, they're uh...evil. :) I don't care if you're a Corathite or just, you know, your run of the mill evil demon worshipper and summoner who drags minions from another plane to do his bidding and often gets mistaken for followers of more famous evil gods, it's still not going to help your reputation any.
I'm just trying to remind people that not all discoveries are metagamed, and to me, assuming that they all are and trying to force everyone to not know something just because we don't want it known, is metagaming in itself. And it's happened.
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Wren runs with more then a few characters from the dark side but he has never seen them do something evil. Sure sometimes they dont help me with buffs but that is not out of the norm really. So he keeps running with them, one day they will do something evil and he will have to decide what to do. But until he sees it or they say to him "I worship the darkness, and I plan to do great and evil things" he just thinks they are a bit mean and grumpy LOL.
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Squareknot: Excellent points. I agree totally.
Jrizz: Thats exactly in my opinion how i would play characters as well.
Acacea: Your points have gone off on a huge tangent but i will add some comments.
((Your common fighter is not likely going to know the hierarchy of the church or the summons or common rituals of the god.)) Agreed
((But Corath is such a stereotypical or cliche DOOM OF THE WORLD EVIL GOD kind of guy that I have no doubt they carry some fear and stories about them, whether or not they follow the handbook's definition of the church. "Maybe it's a baby eating Corathite that summons demons in the dark of the moons!" "Oh, no, just some other demon guy.")) This is your opinion only. There are people in the game that have no idea whatsovever about magical forces, gods, cities, monsters..etc. Thus these people would have no knowledge/stereotype of anything! If they wish to contest a point then I would like to see untrained skill checks rather than banter off with assumtions.
((If some do eat babies and summon demons during the dark of the moon doesn't make it my fault they adhere to it.)) Again my points above. Also unless they do this in the middle of Hlint or elsewhere I would agree. But in my time here no Corathite PC ever has.
((I did find a lot of people metagaming the location of their temple, which was really annoying and a little disappointing because of who was involved--running across a door in a very large area really does not automatically make its owner and affiliation obvious, in my opinion.)) Excellent point!
((Regarding the demons thing, other than not necessarily screaming Corathite, they're uh...evil. I don't care if you're a Corathite or just, you know, your run of the mill evil demon worshipper and summoner who drags minions from another plane to do his bidding and often gets mistaken for followers of more famous evil gods, it's still not going to help your reputation any.)) I've seen clerics of lucinda (numerous) summon liches and greater mummies, one person doing this in HLint. Does this donate the same reaections?....I think not! Also when a druid summons a dire spider do people automatially assume they worship Baerun? No, and they shouldn't.
We could cover many situations all going off my initial post. My original point were peoples reactions to my charcter before they know anything about him. Yes clearly we have defined dress code has some influence which i totally agree with. Personalities also have a valid reason for arguments. I welcome confrontations realting to these issues but the RP my character is getting towards him is absolutely rediculous and clearly metagaming.
Clearly we will never all agree so lets agree to disagree. The positive points from this thread is that we are now more conscious of our charcters towards others so thats a win in my books.
Cheers,
Polak76
I'm just trying to remind people that not all discoveries are metagamed, and to me, assuming that they all are and trying to force everyone to not know something just because we don't want it known, is metagaming in itself.
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I'm not disagreeing with your original post and I clearly stated that. In fact, I agreed with everything you said and agreed that people metagame things frequently and should not. And think that if it's necessary, there probably isn't a need for deity on server list, as the only thing I've used it for is to look for paladins/clerics who have null or mispelled deities.
My point was not to go off on an unrelated tangent nor to say that you have not been a victim, my response was to Dezza who seemed to issue a blanket generalization of "no one does this," "no one should think this," "none of the Corathites act in such a way," "there's no reason to ever discover.." which is blatantly false from not one but many many of activities I have seen, and was the only impetus to reply to a thread I otherwise agreed with.
I don't believe I ever stated that a Lucindite summoning demons or undead should not cause havoc, and I can think of one Lucindite who got in a great deal of trouble for a lich-issue.
I understand your own experiences and as I stated quite clearly I have met neither your Corathite nor Dezza's. I quote "but just because you're being discreet doesn't mean that everyone is."
The eating babies in the dark of the moon thing was not me saying your character does that or in the middle of Hlint, man...it was supposed to be an exaggerated silly thought that a character might immediately associate with the name because of how dark they are. The point was that people might think extravagant, frightening things, and they usually aren't true--but if someone does adhere to a stereotype it's not really anyone's fault. I stated that a common man wouldn't really know anything about the church, but to say he has never heard of Corath, a prime force of evil, is a little silly to me.
You can't compare a druid summoning a spider to anyone at all summoning a demon. I understand if you feel like you were attacked--you weren't, but I understand the need for counters--but there is not a logical comparison in that. I already said that the automatic jump from demons to Corath isn't a logical one, but I really think you're going to have a hard time arguing that demon summoning is not going to be looked on well no matter who you worship.
I hate metagaming and agree that it occurs frequently, I'm merely opposed to Dezza's blanket generalization of "well that doesn't happen!" for exactly the reasons I stated. It does, and it's not just "walking around in black suits." I'm not trying to list every exception to the rule in response to your post--that's why I didn't reply earlier.I'm just reminding that there ARE exceptions and cases where it is not metagaming at all, in reply to Dezza's denial of them. Large difference, at least in my mind.
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personally, I LIKE the deity thing on the server page.
Why you ask? then I know oocly who I can speak with, and try to get to know. There is one person that I've been speaking with that oocly we know are eachothers same dietys, but Ic we just hang out.
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Acacea - 11/1/2006 11:46 AM
My point was not to go off on an unrelated tangent nor to say that you have not been a victim, my response was to Dezza who seemed to issue a blanket generalization of "no one does this," "no one should think this," "none of the Corathites act in such a way," "there's no reason to ever discover.." which is blatantly false from not one but many many of activities I have seen, and was the only impetus to reply to a thread I otherwise agreed with.
Hey! I never said 'no one does this' I merely indicated what had been observed..thats all..I look forward to all challenging situations thrown my way now that I have one on the side of Good in Tarradon and one on the side of...well not so good in Sipher Priest of Corath..
Its amazing the differences one sees when one tries something new!
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As I said I have no idea if that was the case with your characters, I haven't even met them! It was more like a "Yeah well before we all get foaming at the mouth to agree that metagaming sucks remember how obvious some people can be...but it still sucks." Ie, changing the post to something more like "they're SUPPOSED to be like drow are SUPPOSED to be...secret and hidden ;) "
It would be easier to read if I weren't as longwinded and said so, but the accidental rambling lengths of my posts are my only claim to fame...or maybe infamy. :)
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I also like having the deity on the server status. It's cool when you meet someone and check them out OOC...it's kind of like "ahhh..so thats why they acted that way, or thats what they are". It scratches an itch that I'd probably never find out IG.
People just need to be mature enough not to use the server status for personal gain.
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jrizz - 11/1/2006 4:28 PM
Wren runs with more then a few characters from the dark side but he has never seen them do something evil. Sure sometimes they dont help me with buffs but that is not out of the norm really. So he keeps running with them, one day they will do something evil and he will have to decide what to do. But until he sees it or they say to him "I worship the darkness, and I plan to do great and evil things" he just thinks they are a bit mean and grumpy LOL.
Why are you dragging me into this? lol
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Polak76 - 11/1/2006 9:31 PM
I also like having the deity on the server status. It's cool when you meet someone and check them out OOC...it's kind of like "ahhh..so thats why they acted that way, or thats what they are". It scratches an itch that I'd probably never find out IG.
People just need to be mature enough not to use the server status for personal gain.
If you're going backwards to check out one character it's easy enough to seach for the submission or follow their link on the serverstatus to their character page.
What having it on the server status page itself allows is quick and easy wholesale scanning of "who's X deity" whether you want to know or not.
Frankly when I'm coming on as a player I try not to look beyond the name.
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Drizzlin - 11/1/2006 9:07 PM
jrizz - 11/1/2006 4:28 PM
Wren runs with more then a few characters from the dark side but he has never seen them do something evil. Sure sometimes they dont help me with buffs but that is not out of the norm really. So he keeps running with them, one day they will do something evil and he will have to decide what to do. But until he sees it or they say to him "I worship the darkness, and I plan to do great and evil things" he just thinks they are a bit mean and grumpy LOL.
Why are you dragging me into this? lol
You are such a good example..... of mean and grumpy LoL
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I try not to metagame like this, and I hope my roleplay shows it.
With Zug, he generally trusts everyone, unless they're acting like jerks. Unless someone told him explicitly, he wouldn't know a Corathite from a Toranite.
Aoeleth typically treats others with the same level of respect he is afforded, which, being a Drow, isn't much. Anyone willing to look past his heritage is someone he will team up with, except that he clearly won't associate with anyone he suspects folows the evil Drow gods.
Vorian... well... as long as fun and adventure are involved, he doesn't ask too many questions.
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Metagaming is pretty hard to control, it's a constant battle between your RP, and what other PLAYERS know is in their own characters best interest. Theres sometimes a fine line between what a PLAYER knows, and what a CHARACTER can deduce from what is being played out in game.
For example, Say I log on to the server status page to see if Gulnyr or Regnus or Klaug or someone is playing, I skip down through the list and don't see them, but the word CORATH jumps out at me from the diety field. I don't bother to look to see who it is, close the browser and log on to play. Say I'm playing Bidwick, a fighter with aspirations, part of his RP is that he's a bit brighter than the average meat shield, thus his 13 int. Now, he's no brain surgeon, but he's probably smarter than your highschool gym teacher.
Bidwick cruises around doing his thing, ridding the roads and countryside of bandits. He happens along a fellow in a meadow collecting some plants, the fellow is wearing a long black robe with a high colar and some sort of head-dress that looks like sider legs sticking off his back and head, he also looks really pale. Bidwick from his travels in this area knows theres lots of the deadly nightshade plants that grow in this area, and wonders what this fellow could want such a toxic plant for. Then, before the guy notices Bidwick a group of bandits rush the fellow from the bushes, Bidwick draws his weapon to go help, then stops as the fellow casts a spell, is himself struck by a bolt of black lightning and surrounded by a greasy looking purple black cloud. He then casts another spell at the rushing bandits who are enveloped for a moment in a black cloud, when the emerge they look paler and stumble as though weakened. Finaly, as they close within range and strike at the mage he summons an imp and retreats from battle to let his minion handle the weakened bandits.
Now, Bidwick, having seen all this thinks this guy is definately dancing on the darker edge of the spotlight, and his suspicions are confirmed when his imp fells a bandit, and the mage casts another spell, raising the dead bandits corpse as a zombie.
Now Bidwick, as NG at this point might wish to go aid the bandits rather than aid the mage as was his original intent, after all, these guys might just be starving farmers or something, what with the world in a dark age, and while banditry is wrong, as far as Bidwick is concerned raising a zombie is a worse crime.
Bidwick was around enough to know that Blood and his minions were in the same general region of rottonness this guy seems to be, and by that association Biwick coul logically deduce the slim cross-section of dieties this guy is likely to be a follower of. ME, as the PLAYER have a sneaky suspicion that this is the Corathite I saw in the server status.
Later, Bidwick is talking to a freind in Hlint when the dark mage from the battle walks in. Bidwicks freind says something about the guy being creepy-looking, Bidwick relates his story, the freind, being a cleric notes that Corath is a proponant of using the undead.
Two days later Bidwick runs into the guy again, this time in the tavern as a few people gather to form a party for a quest. Bidwick comments to the paladin in the prospective group that he thinks the mage is a corathite, and starts giving sidelong glances at the mage. Now, I as a player start getting tells about "Nice metagaming buddy." from the player of the dark mage. This guy had absolutely no idea about the RP that went into Bidwicks deduction, but still, it is assumed that if I knew he was a Corathite I'd just pulled it off the server status page.
Just to play devils advocate here, this situation really happened to me, paraphrase and condensed because I'm typing this up from school on a break. But I just wanted to say, as has been said before, walk like a duck, quack like a duck, act like a duck. people are going to think duck. Given all the other information Bidwick had even if the guy had been wearing shining white robes of Hey I'm a good guy +15 I definately would have had a similar train of RP. Just because you paint a barn green doesn't make it any less a barn.
Anyhow, cya all in game.
Vyris
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I don't get the green barn thing, but weird analogies must be a side affect of the Vyris. ;) All in all I think Vyris hit the nail on the head; and what people need to do from now on is ASK OOC for a very brief overview of how the person knows someone is what they are. Person (A) who asks person (B) how he knows that person (A's) character is a Corathite would then be trusted not to metagame any of the information he heard OOC from person (B) and continue RPing with only the OOC reassurance that all is as it should be.
It's a player thing.
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The best evil people in Layo are the ones that don't do stupid things in public. The ones that are smart about it.
The ones that complain all the time here on the forums are the ones that are...
Casting undead around others.
Prasing an Evil gods in public
Wearing all black, and hooded (say! that must be an Aeridinite!!!)
Being an a$$ to everyone (though for some that's more a personal problem than their character I think)
Then ya cry foul when people put 2 and 2 together?
please.
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My character is entitled to say he or she things anyone is anything! That's their oppinion. Just as is everyone elses character here.
Wether my characters oppinion is fact, rumor, or just that they don't like the first impression they got from your character is all going to be handled thru ROLEPLAY.
If any of my characters saw the above mentioned scenario... they'd come to the EXACT same conclusion.
If I see a person dressed head to toe in black, hood covering their face... im going to assume they have something to hide. Will I scream Corathite at the top of my lungs? Of course not.
Clerics... use that Divine Relation spell. It will tell you a great deal and allow you to Roleplay from there!
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As well as lossing well. Most evil players seem to have a problem with losing, not that I've seen it on Layo. It's just a common atribute of them, cant grasp the fact that evil dosnt win much. I perfer playing evil myself but normally play both evenly and dont sit and complain about losing...Just everything else :P eh, that might be a bit off topic, anyway....Dress dosnt excaclty sterotype a person, black for example is worn by alot in reality some not "evil" or "gothy" or "weird" or whatever you want to call them. Black tux's are worn to weddings, I suppose it's different if it was a formal dress or a thuggish. And yes, if anyone already shows hate toward a Corathite and knwos nothing about them personally before hand, that's an ugly metagame. They should burn in hell. As far as metagaming goes I keep most of my characters info to myself. I still use dev threads but only list common stuff. My thread isnt the most colorful or lengthy but meh, It's better than being metagamed. And about summoning a spectre, skell, or wraith in front of others, that's pretty silly. I mean if one of those others was a Pally it'd be in his nature to hack you or your pretty little pet down. PvP isnt allowed in most circumstances, so that would really put that other player in a wierd situation, not fair for them.
Oh ignore my writing skills, spelling, ect. they are horrible.
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Excuse my ignorance...What exactly do you mean by losing? Losing to what? You mean dying?
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The funny thing about Divine Relation is that when my character Ward would use it on people they always got offended
That it wasn't my duty to go around and pry into their personal lives with magic.
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Doc-Holiday - 11/2/2006 4:08 PM The funny thing about Divine Relation is that when my character Ward would use it on people they always got offended That it wasn't my duty to go around and pry into their personal lives with magic.
From what I understand, other characters shouldn't know that it's being cast, because it's not actually a spell, just a quick (not even overt and ritualistic!) prayer to one's deity to see what He or She thinks about the other character. Though it is good to see my "duck" quote being used.
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((The best evil people in Layo are the ones that don't do stupid things in public. The ones that are smart about it.
The ones that complain all the time here on the forums are the ones that are...
Casting undead around others.
Prasing an Evil gods in public
Wearing all black, and hooded (say! that must be an Aeridinite!!!)
Being an a$$ to everyone (though for some that's more a personal problem than their character I think)
Then ya cry foul when people put 2 and 2 together?))
I'm extremely proud of all the corathites I've RPed with except one. I believe we are descrete and the only time we tend to summon ugly things is when we feel relatively confident with our party or wish to announce our allegience.
Don't get me wrong, eventually our aim is to proclaim our dark path and live a life of seclusion. But back to my original post I'm talking about people's reaction before they've seen/know a thing. If they can put 2 & 2 together at that time, then they've got flawless die rolls of 20's on all their skill checks.
Anyway I truly believe we all metagame to an extent. We all know where mini-quests are, points of interest, CNR's, monsters, etc. We may RP some of them but generally I've never met a person that RP's it all from the word go, unless they're brand new to the world. I'll freely admit that at times I'm a culprit to this type of metagaming but I find it generally harmless and not overpowering.
Metaqgamin only becomes a problem when you work hard to achieve something in the game, and people use OOC methods to thwart or ruin many hours of hard work with a stupid comment or action. It only takes an OOC comment to start a snow ball effect and it's all too late. You can't really say to everyone, "Ahh, please ignore his/her comment, it was made OOC///", I know cause I've had to do that in the past.
So exactly what Vyris stated, there is a fine line here and we need to try and balance it as best as possible.
please.
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Alright, alright! I'll admit it! I am a metagamer!
Yes, indeed. I stumble around with new characters when walking through Hlint and pretend to be "lost" in the town, but my characters all conveniently make their way to the quest NPCs.
I tend to agree with Polak most of the way. The looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has the word duck written all over it thin, would definatly work if these were ducks. As it is, Nethro was not the best RPed Corathite. Even Chanda and Tath slipped up at times (I will no longer be playing him so I have no fear of saying that). We did silly things like summoning a ten foot demon in Hlint or taunting a dwarf in town (one of my stupider moments early in Tath's career). Both of those instances were metagaming on our part (because no one could do anything about it) and we deserved whatever backlash we got from the players (be it OOC or IC).
In the world of Layonara, suspicions run especially high right now. The world is in disarray after all these evil guys did their doo doo in on our land. So yeah, guy summons undead, go ahead - can him. Proclaims his alleigence to the dark lord - can him. Talks about relishing the death of others and harvesting their souls. Back away slowly, set phaser for stun, and take him down. But people go around looking creepy in black, keep suspicions to yourself unless your character is just that paranoid. No one begins a sentence with Ozy (and glowy red staff) by saying, "EVIL!" (Not that I know of anyway.)
Be kind, please rewind. And look over what you've done and said in the past. If you're "evil" and you had the acusation that you are coming for a while, accept it when it comes. If you unjustly accused someone, apologise, move on, and learn from it.
Cheers and hugs all around!
ZV-
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Heh well saying "the only ones that complain on the forums do x" is kind of a blanket generalization in the same not quite accurate sense that "us Corathites are never obvious!" Both are not really true, you see exceptions both good and bad either way even from the loudest on either side. I only brought up the examples of my encounters with the same Corathites that have the Corath emblem on the shield and wish the dark lord to take my soul then complaining of metagaming, to say "easy on the blanket accusations" because it happens to everybody, no matter what side your character is on, they're going to do something to get caught and it might not be just a slipup.
It's just much more devastating when you are an evil character or one in involved with very sensitive and shady information. Then it's not just some minor irritation that you whine about on IRC or something, but something that is essentially ruining a HUGE amount of time and love put into crafting something. When it's something that "never should have happened," it just puts a really bitter taste in your mouth because as mentioned, you can't really "undo" it.
So yeah I think saying basically that "All the whiners are responsible anyway" is a little harsh because people do metagame it all the time. Just make sure that's really what it is. It's also not as fun for the people MAKING an honest discovery, when it's already been metagamed to pieces. :) Acacea discovered several things about the temple, but it wasn't really as fun as it might have been if anyone had bothered pretending it were a secret in the first place. What's the fun in unveiling something no one let be hidden? hehe
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((Heh well saying "the only ones that complain on the forums do x" is kind of a blanket generalization in the same not quite accurate sense that "us Corathites are never obvious!" Both are not really true, you see exceptions both good and bad either way even from the loudest on either side. I only brought up the examples of my encounters with the same Corathites that have the Corath emblem on the shield and wish the dark lord to take my soul then complaining of metagaming, to say "easy on the blanket accusations" because it happens to everybody, no matter what side your character is on, they're going to do something to get caught and it might not be just a slipup. ))
hehe..I was about to ask you which corathites walked around with the emblem displayed on their shields so i could have a word to them but that would be metagaming! Bugger, i can be a hard thing to ignore but thats whats gotta be done. ANyway if these Corathites (none that I've seen) are doing this and complaining then they are definately in the wrong and confirm G452's comment prior.
We had a rule in the temple that if youre caught out you are punished. Discretion was the key to success. I guess we're not around much these days to keep an eye on things.
Oh well on the other hand thats what it's like to be a Corathite. It's corrupt enough within ranks as well as outside. Quite volatile but exciting.