The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: merlin34baseball on November 02, 2006, 06:27:36 PM
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OK... I will preface this with the fact that it is probably going to seem as a rant, which it may be and probably is... but I think I have a valid point.
I feel that it is impossible to make it here if you are not in a guild. Houses went on the market and every single one (with the possible exeption of one) on Mistone was bought by a guild member, two of the houses are even in the same characters name. I went on line, including setting my alarm for god awful times in the morning every two hours that they went on sale, to buy one.
It must be nice to just load up a PC with coins and have them buy up housing while the rest of the guild works, studies, whatever. It's just disheartening to save and save and save (and take a loan from another PC) to see the houses snatched up by guilds because they have the numbers.
It doesnt seem that a private, small, one or two person enterprise can make it. I guess that's capitalism but it still squashes out the little guy. It's just unbelievable that there is not a cap on what guilds can own so THE REST OF US can have a piece of the pie.
How much more money and properties do the guilds need? Must my PC bow before them to have a chance in this world? I just don't get it.
Besides that this is a wonderful world with so much oportunity to grow as a role player. But I feel that my character has to bow before corporate Layonara to get ahead and I dont think thats right. I spent hours and hours scouting the houses and trying to be on time exacty when they went on sale but... Nope, they were bought by guilds.
Please don't think I don't like Layo, I love it. I just wanted a small storefront for my PC and a friend where we could eek out a meager living, but no, we don't have the influence and power, or coins to have someone loaded up with coins to buy every house on the block.
Maybe I'm a communist...
Please, please don't take this as an insult to the world in general, I have so much fun here, BUT, I feel this needs to be addressed.
My Thanks.
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Well if it were up to me and codeable, I wouldn't allow any normal house to hold more than 10 containers and forbid guilds to purchase more storage house. They should be responsible for their guild houses (which wouldn't have the 10 container limit) to store their goods and not go overboard. I too think is ridiculous that so much housing is owned by guilds when they should by all means be houses for players to live in, not store more junk.
I'm sure I'm not in the majority in this portion, since obviously many people are in guilds, and this is just my personal opinion, so take it as just that, but I think many of the guilds, and everyone in general, should consider better their housing and storage before bloating the server with even more junk.
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I have to disagree. My main character is a two person guild that was a one person guild for a very long time. Storage? She RP'ed living with various other home owners and rented out space in a guild hall. She sold her goods at the Arms and was faithfully there almost every week until the interest had fallen to a meer trickle. Her prices are equal or greater than the guilds, but she takes alot of items in trade instead of coin. I have with her on at least two occasions made a call for apprentices to join her - next to zero interest.
I am right now RP'ing her putting out contracts for various low level crafting items for much more than the pawn shops will pay and getting a mixed interest.
The ability is there it make it, if, as in real life, you are inventive and create your own oppertunities.
It is sad that the guilds do feel like they have to have mega storage. I had hoped the recent purge would have proven to them how much junk most people have stored, and how you can down size and still be quite effective, but alas perhaps the personality type that is drawn to NWN is also drawn to packratism as well.
my 2cents
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merlin34baseball - 11/2/2006 7:27 PM
OK... I will preface this with the fact that it is probably going to seem as a rant, which it may be and probably is... but I think I have a valid point.
I feel that it is impossible to make it here if you are not in a guild. Houses went on the market and every single one (with the possible exeption of one) on Mistone was bought by a guild member, two of the houses are even in the same characters name. I went on line, including setting my alarm for god awful times in the morning every two hours that they went on sale, to buy one.
It must be nice to just load up a PC with coins and have them buy up housing while the rest of the guild works, studies, whatever. It's just disheartening to save and save and save (and take a loan from another PC) to see the houses snatched up by guilds because they have the numbers.
It doesnt seem that a private, small, one or two person enterprise can make it. I guess that's capitalism but it still squashes out the little guy. It's just unbelievable that there is not a cap on what guilds can own so THE REST OF US can have a piece of the pie.
How much more money and properties do the guilds need? Must my PC bow before them to have a chance in this world? I just don't get it.
Besides that this is a wonderful world with so much oportunity to grow as a role player. But I feel that my character has to bow before corporate Layonara to get ahead and I dont think thats right. I spent hours and hours scouting the houses and trying to be on time exacty when they went on sale but... Nope, they were bought by guilds.
Please don't think I don't like Layo, I love it. I just wanted a small storefront for my PC and a friend where we could eek out a meager living, but no, we don't have the influence and power, or coins to have someone loaded up with coins to buy every house on the block.
Maybe I'm a communist...
Please, please don't take this as an insult to the world in general, I have so much fun here, BUT, I feel this needs to be addressed.
My Thanks.
Communist :)
*cackles*
Get ahold of me IG, I have some interesting information for you
Vyris
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slightly off topic... sorry if I de-rail your thread....
I have two characters who are crafters and go at it on their own... Enzo and Andraia.
It isnt easy going against a guild who has everything right away.... but thru RP and some work you can get your name out there and get a reputation going.... word of mouth is worth a lot even in a virtual community.
Hang in there!!!
G-452
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Storage is pretty ridiculous if you ask me...to the far extreme.
Let’s take a look at a DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) for instance. They have houses that have two storage chests in the house (perhaps even one I forget as I have not logged in for a few years). Yes that chest can store a lot of things in that chest but I think the number is around 64--again not 100% positive any more but it is not a whole lot.
That right there tells you just how outrageous things are out of control right now.
Another great example is EQ where the storage is the BANK ONLY. Where you have 12 slots (I think that is the number and you can have a single container (of a max of 8 or 12 slots each--I forget)...but that is a total of 144 items max (or around that number).
See what I mean... I used to feel that we would allow players to do what they wanted but over the four years I have seen that players do not police themselves when it comes to items and storage (or greed), they push the boundaries of what they are allowed....thusly we need scripts and code to actually force the limitations. But well....that takes manpower and we already do this for free. Not for free, we do this while paying about $5,000 a year (or so) so I can not ask the team to do any more than they already are.
I really feel that it is so very sad when guilds have guild halls and then guild members have their own houses. But for us to limit it that means we have for spend quality GM Team policing things we shouldn’t have to do or we right code to not allow this…but code is not going to solve the problem because it is impossible. The GM time that it would take to police and monitor this sort of thing is literally dozens of hours a month, we shouldn’t have to do that sort of thing.
I am sorry to the players out there that want houses, hopefully you guys/gals can work things out.
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EQ is getitng bigger... last time I saw you could have boxes with more than 32 slots.... probably over 40 now.
So your 8 personal bank slots and 4 slots for muling items from character to character suddenly turn into 480 slots. :)
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It's hard when there are a lot of individuals who have hundreds of thousands of gold.
Other guild members may shoot me here, but I do agree that multiple housing should be a no-no. All you need is a port to the main office to drop things off. And I think individuals should also be allowed only one home. I'm personally discouraged by the number of homes that are storage cases for individuals. I feel like selling mine a lot because while it's quite 'homey' inside and offers a lot in atmosphere... nobody is ever there. So ultimately it becomes a) storage, and b) a portal. But it's nice that it's so pretty in there, those bookshelves didn't line up on their own and you like keeping what you worked on, same reason we all get hooked on our characters. So unless you do in fact have people over all the time, maybe you just shouldn't even have a home. This a question I pose to myself often. And I wonder how many others do as well.
If there were a centralized tavern on each server that everyone knew about and it had a portal, that'd be enough for me. And then maybe a locker somewhere allowing around 50 items that I just don't want to throw out. Then I'd get rid of my part-ownership on a house. All I want is a rowdy tavern with at least 10 players in it. Everyone has high hopes of their house being this, but it's just not the case. Only way the rowdy tavern that has passersby at all times is to have the player density channeled towards it. And that's all server-map/ traffic design and making it appealing, with the best selection of, or only available portals, fun things inside to do (like funny scripted drinking contests, dartboards, anything that keeps people occupied so there's a reason to be there and be social), private rooms that can be rented that just shock and awe and make you want to be there, and of course, cheap drinks. You introduce this with a forced flow of traffic and you can take out housing altogether. Because it's maybe once a month that a person can have people actually come over to their place to hang out. When everyone has a home it becomes storage and a portal. And I kinda scowl at myself for setting up all the furniture when I'd be better served heading to Hlint.
I don't however feel that guilds are the source of all money/ capitalism woes on Layonara. It's far far easier for me to head out to get something valuable and sell it then to wait on the guild dues to be paid out. I do think that most guild members are higher level and thus have higher purchasing power. So that's naturally going to happen.
But I'll tell you what. You present an idea good enough, like a 2x2 shanty with dartboards, good seating, fun scripted player contests and cheap drinks, right in downtown Hlint... I'll throw 500k in without a second thought. Then you can run your shop whenever you're around and maybe that extra server space will add some value by accumulating the playerbase.
That's my thought on it at least. Fun fun.
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Chongo I like the idea a small place on every server where anyone can set up shop... Its an awsome idea, instead of having people have to come to your home as Enzo said.
My problem lies, and you are right, about houses being for storage. The only reason I even need a house is so that me and my partner can access our (each others) trade goods. Other wise if she sells something and I have it and I'm not on for a while the sale never gets made. Plus she has access to no house so she has to carry all her CNR and finished goods around.
In a guild, well, you open the door, open the chest, and sell it. No carrying around everything you want to sell. Independent crafters who have partners don't have that luxury. Thats the basic problem. If you cant buy a simple tent, shack, hovel, to store your finished goods your stuck carrying them. Thank the lord my PC is a jeweler and not a weapon smith.
Again... I love this world, but I think the little guy gets squeezed out, and if you (we) want to expand the player base it shouldnt be that way. As it is I post on the trade hall forum to sell my goods, but have to price them less than the guilds to get any bites. I could cut my prices in half... then I'd get lots of business and plenty of [TELLS] saying I was ruining the economy...
Could we get storage lockers with keys like homes so we could give them out to whom we choose? That way 4 Pcs could live in the same house, and actually use the rooms to sleep in, instead of for mass chests... and have storage units for their stuff.
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I didn't understand the big deal about houses until I saw the inside of a few of them, and wow...
But anyway.. One thing I was wondering was, why doesn't the Wild Surge feel more like the home away from home it's supposed to be? Like why couldn't inns have a chest system like the bank's (with maybe 3 or 4 times the storage, but it costs you 100 coins every time you want to open the door to your "room" to get to it?)
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miasma_hemlock - 11/3/2006 12:19 AM
I didn't understand the big deal about houses until I saw the inside of a few of them, and wow...
But anyway.. One thing I was wondering was, why doesn't the Wild Surge feel more like the home away from home it's supposed to be? Like why couldn't inns have a chest system like the bank's (with maybe 3 or 4 times the storage, but it costs you 100 coins every time you want to open the door to your "room" to get to it?)
More chests, more items, more lag.
They could make the bank chest hold 50 items if the team wanted to.... but that will add more lag.
We are doing things with NwN that is isnt designed to do.... that's the bottom line we have to work with what we have.
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Good thread!
I have thought on this topic a number of times. One of my PCs is a Freelancer with access to housing across the lands. When the persistent storage wipe came he had to unload exactly nothing from storage. My other PC, Bumblebee, I worked very hard ICly and through the forums to find convenient housing for portal use. He ended up with rented space by the pear tree in Hlint and just outside Prantz. He used these houses primarily to dart between servers and I made enormous use of that feature. His storage consisted of parchments and some higher level items he couldn't use yet.
To me the number one benefit of housing is free portal access. For PCs below level 10, this may not seem like a big deal. After that, though, you will need to adventure on central to get the XP bang for your hours. All of your non-adventure will still be back in Hlint (benches for forming parties, buying/selling CNR material and goods, meeting new players, spontaneous GM interaction). With a portal, you and your friends can just zip back and forth getting the most of your time. A portal back from Prantz is also needed as the non-portal return journey is time consuming and potentially leathal (perhaps less so with the improved feature to keep monsters off area transitions).
The second benefit is storage. As a non-CNR player, I never understood why anyone would need so many chests full of tidbits. A 1x2(?) room can hold like 11 chests or more. That's over 350 items! Why would you ever need more than that?
Of least benefit, to me anyway, is the "fluff" rooms. These are the master bedrooms, dining halls, altars. Don't get me wrong, I do see the value of them for RP and I imagine some do use them often. As a player I would really enjoy having access to a house-based altar to Vorax. How often would I use it? Not sure as all the RP there would be only be me alone. Truly how often are most of these elaborate "fluff" rooms (and some of them look fantastic!) used and shown off? Not as often as their owners would like, I bet.
So, my question to people that want houses is, why? There are rooms for rent at the Leilon Arms that would enable the first two benefits. I'm not sure about the third since they may already be decorated. I do know that without too too much effort you can find a room to rent in any of the towns of the land. This gives you all three benefits right away.
For those of you hesitant to rent out rooms, I suggest the following: As the owner of the house get the renter to agree that you will place all persistent items. This way if the renter vanishes, stops paying rent, etc. you, as the placer, can remove their stuff. Second, hand a sincere OOC discussion so that you both understand the rules. Such things as: Only the renter may enter, no guests are allowed. If guests are allowed, the renter is to take responsibility. The renter is never, never to explore other chests (as there is a very real possibility of their contents being lost on server crash while lid is open).
If you still want a house of your own, go to all the houses, get the PC names and do some research. Send some PMs and birds. Perhaps one of them would be willing to lease you an entire floor or the entire thing or sell it outright as long as they retained access with a room and a portal. If you do find a house to buy, I hope you consider renting a room or two yourself.
Hope it all works out, whatever you decide.
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Uhm... theres portals for public use, if I'm not mistaken they are 300 coins to hop between servers, why would you need a house just to stick a portal in? After paying over 100k for a house and however much a portal costs... do you realize how many 300 gp portal trips that is?
With your newfound wealth you could just BUY whatever you need, rather than having to have 15 chests full of things of dubious value and limited use. The economy is already topheavy with production, we need more consumers.
The portals I speak of are just outside Hlint on the north side right next to the tower. I have watched the price on these come down dramatically to encourage people to travel. Yet, it still seems that people would rather run to 'Town X' to use the portal in thier (ware)house. If you are on the cheap you can take a boat too, and pick what end of the continent you want to arrive on.
Vyris
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I have made a personal habit to outfit my character's with only the absolute essentials for survival. Food, Drink, 10 scrolls max, 14 bandages, change of clothes, weapon, and at most about 10 misc. items. the rest goes in the bank, if the bank won't hold it I have to get rid of it.
Crafter's are an exception to the rule, but it's important for Crafter's to keep their clutter down as well. Log-in-Lag is getting monsterous to the point of deadly.
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Vyris, those portals outside Hlint don't go to the destinations that the housing ones do. There is a big difference.
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Pen N Popper - 11/3/2006 9:47 AM
Vyris, those portals outside Hlint don't go to the destinations that the housing ones do. There is a big difference.
Not really. Most likely you are going there to gather CNR or pick up CNR, and it depends mightily on where the house you have is located. If you have a house near Panzt then a home teleporter is more convenient, for anywhere else on Dregar you are at worst splitting the difference with starting in North point, and more often than not you'll pass by or near the CNR you wanted to pick up/gather on your way there.
When traveling from central to west it makes absolutely no difference if you use a house portal or a public one.
Vyris
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Vyris - 11/3/2006 11:41 AM
When traveling from central to west it makes absolutely no difference if you use a house portal or a public one.
Vyris
Not to argue too much here... but when I'm in Fort Miritrix, and want to go to Hlint, I am super happy I have a portal in Prantz. 15 areas versus around 31 areas to run through I think. When I'm in Prantz and want to go to Hlint, I am super super happy I have a portal. 2 areas versus around 20-25. When I'm in Hlint, and want to go to Arabel, I am super happy I have a house portal that goes straight there. That's 2 areas versus around 21 areas.
There are a lot of great portals to use, don't get me wrong. But when I see a good population on west and want to get to Hlint from where I usually am, the dwarven funrun from the far east is made a lot nicer if I can skip out on the continents of Rilara and Mistone alike.
It depends on where you travel obviously. Regarding your point on CNR, if you are after diamonds, cobalt, adamantium and the like, then of course the Hlint and North Point portals are going to make sense. If you are after fire opals, topaz, sapphires, silver, etc... then the housing portals to Prantz are going to be well recieved. And you better believe that if the houses off Castle Hilm ever went on the market, then people would pay millions to have quicker access back from a long trip for the big guns in the UD. And maybe that's part of the problem. Dunno.
I used to think that a world needed to seem vast to really draw folks in. That travel should feel like travel and the notion of it should be exciting. As I tested this a bit more, I found that people liked direct access to the central hub of a server and that multiple hubs that were spread out didn't work out very well. That even the best roleplaying individuals that keep the spirit of the server in everything they do, even they got weary of finding themselves spread out and having to jog 30 areas to get to where they hope others are.
I don't think instant gratification should be granted with travel though. If everything's only one map away, then the adventure is lost. East should never have a fast track outward, that huge trek to get to the far north should be a huge trek. All outgoing adventurers should have a good long linear stretch to reach that point far away. The expeditionary nature makes it what it is! But the hub should be central. The hub in this Layo version is Hlint, and it is pretty centralized, but mostly due to housing portals all over. And by centralized, I mean that it should be easily accessed from almost anywhere. Housing portals, the NP portal, the Hurm-Leilon boat... these permit this to an extent. But if you take out housing portals, especially in Prantz and Lorindar... you're looking at a lot of running for those headed inbound. And heading inbound towards the hub isn't expeditionary. It's not enjoyable. It's simply wanting to get to where the people are. The more the playerbase is pooled into one spot, the better for the server.
I dunno though. I go back and forth on the issue of travel all the time. You lose a little on either end depending which way you go. The more access you grant, the more players will be able to pool. The less access you grant, the bigger the world seems and stays. So I dunno.
But right now, on this issue... I say kill the houses, put in lockers, put in very hip taverns with portals, and more importantly dartboards, in them. Make the taverns in the far away places one way on the portals to get us back to the Hlint hub. *dodges the incoming rotten tomatoes from staff and players alike looking at the 1000's of hours spent on all things housing related*
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I've read a lot of good statements and thoughts here. I admittedly own 2 homes. 1 with Eredel and 1 with Strykr. (I am pretty sure this is within the rules) However, both homes are on Central, and I believe, there are still homes available on Central. But, each of these characters have friends that have free rooms in the homes. Strykr shares his home with his monk friend Silverhand. He also, at one point, shared his home with Cymeran Vrinn, until Cymeran was married and purchased a home of his own. Eredel shares his home with Robert Hearth and at one point provided access to our old friend Elrend Starfire.
Now while my characters are the actual homeowners, the ones that came up with the hard earned money to purchase the homes, the homes were/are homes for more than one individual. My suggestion to the original poster is to seek out people, as stated by others, and see if they'd be willing to lease space to you. Some people may have homes for storage only, some may decorate, most have a portal. The biggest issue is always going to come down to trust. Build up a relationship with someone with a home and perhaps you might be fortunate to gain access to that home and possibly have a room to store things if that is what you are after. My friends use my homes for free, you may not be so lucky as to find someone to offer you that.
Afterall, plunking down 75,000-385,000 True for a home might not be for everyone. Best of luck to you.
Eredel/Strykr
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Vyris - 11/3/2006 8:26 AM
Uhm... theres portals for public use, if I'm not mistaken they are 300 coins to hop between servers, why would you need a house just to stick a portal in? After paying over 100k for a house and however much a portal costs... do you realize how many 300 gp portal trips that is?
With your newfound wealth you could just BUY whatever you need, rather than having to have 15 chests full of things of dubious value and limited use. The economy is already topheavy with production, we need more consumers.
The portals I speak of are just outside Hlint on the north side right next to the tower. I have watched the price on these come down dramatically to encourage people to travel. Yet, it still seems that people would rather run to 'Town X' to use the portal in thier (ware)house. If you are on the cheap you can take a boat too, and pick what end of the continent you want to arrive on.
Vyris
House portals are free, but go to different places than the paid ones.
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Vyris - 11/3/2006 10:41 AM
Pen N Popper - 11/3/2006 9:47 AM
Vyris, those portals outside Hlint don't go to the destinations that the housing ones do. There is a big difference.
Not really. Most likely you are going there to gather CNR or pick up CNR, and it depends mightily on where the house you have is located. If you have a house near Panzt then a home teleporter is more convenient, for anywhere else on Dregar you are at worst splitting the difference with starting in North point, and more often than not you'll pass by or near the CNR you wanted to pick up/gather on your way there.
When traveling from central to west it makes absolutely no difference if you use a house portal or a public one.
Vyris
The portal in your house will take you to Prantz. The portal outside of the wizard tower in norht Hlint takes you North Point. Thats roughly 20 zones apart give or take.
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monthly chest wipes?
limit homes to 2 rooms, of a certain size?
I have never and will never own a home, rent a home, or need chests outside of the bank chests. Portals are nice, but usually unnessasary.
I think, its an argument: time for the team vs lag monster. mayhaps the team can come to terms with the lag monster sometime without this, but people aren't policing themselves. At all. This is evident because of the restrictions placed under the new submissions, the extreme lag because of what people carry in thier inventories, the crud in thier homes...
something needs to be changed, but noone wants to change? how bout a complete wipe of the housing system. Take it all away, and re-imburse gold for what the house and only the house cost. PC's can only purchase and have one house, even as a co-owner. houses can only have 2 rooms. Each house can only hold 10 chests.
that MAY change a LOT. and then, people whom can't limit themselves won't have to.
and I don't care who gets mad at me for saying so ;)
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I would be in favor of no player owned housing personaly. Perhaps once a person gains world leader status they could have a house customized to their liking, that would be kindof a cool reward.
If there were no player housing people would be encouraged to join trade guilds. If you want a room with some additional storage and access to a portal join a guild. In fact, guilds could become pretty powerfull organizations, just as they were in the time period that NwN is modeled after. There could also be religious organizations, like the brotherhood of Vorax for instance... etc.
I think it would be kinda neat. I own a house and I would be willing to give it up for a global system like that. Just give me a room and a 20 item chest and a 10 item wardrobe that both lock. As often as I actually spend time in my house that would be more than enough.
Vyris
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Lilswanwillow - 11/3/2006 2:42 PM
monthly chest wipes?
I have never and will never own a home, rent a home, or need chests outside of the bank chests. Portals are nice, but usually unnessasary.
I think, its an argument: time for the team vs lag monster. mayhaps the team can come to terms with the lag monster sometime without this, but people aren't policing themselves. At all. This is evident because of the restrictions placed under the new submissions, the extreme lag because of what people carry in thier inventories, the crud in thier homes...
something needs to be changed, but noone wants to change? how bout a complete wipe of the housing system. Take it all away, and re-imburse gold for what the house and only the house cost. PC's can only purchase and have one house, even as a co-owner. houses can only have 2 rooms. Each house can only hold 10 chests.
that MAY change a LOT. and then, people whom can't limit themselves won't have to.
and I don't care who gets mad at me for saying so ;)
Why don't we just remove the whole CNR/crafting system as well? Based on much of what you are saying, that is the real problem. But if you are for that, I certainly hope you aren't using any magic gloves, rings, belts, etc. Us crafters tend to need to acquire a fair amount of materials to avoid hundreds, if not thousands, of trips to the craft halls. Food crafting for example. We must gather corn in mass loads for corn oil, meal, flour and eggs. In addition, say we wish to work on pies. Well you need additional 6-8 units of fruit. But are we going to gather only 6-8? Probably not. We may gather 6-8 of each fruit in our traveling adventures, perhaps a bit more if we happen to pass areas twice or other areas with similar fruits. Then perhaps we are passing by areas that also have items of alchemaic nature. So we gather those as well. In the process of all this traveling we happen to encounter creatures/monsters and find equipment worth taking back to town to sell or donate. Now our bags are getting very full.
Oh but wait, we happen to practice jewelry too. I happen to be a wizard and I cannot mine metals. Therefore I must pay someone to gather and smelt for me. And we all know that metal is rather heavy, especially if you have only a carrying capacity of 116 lbs with magic jewelry on. (Not including spells) Thus because I am physically weak, I should stick to just one or 2 crafts, or none at all, because I can't physically carry the heavy stuff. Take away our housing and chest then we are physically limited to natural and enhanced strength and many many more frequent trips to the craft halls.
This is all perfectly fine to those of you who aren't interested in crafting. But for many of the players in Layonara, crafting is a big part of this game as well. I'd say 90% or so of all my outings in groups are for 1 crafting purpose or another.
Now a limit to 10 chest or so is more than reasonable in my opinion. But the idea of monthly chest wipes is a bit ridiculous in my opinion, it places a lot of burden on us crafters to not travel for a portion of our night before with friends and rearrange our inventories to empty out our chests and then we are forced to sit in our homes or log until the wipe happens because we are all extremely over weight limits. (Especially when holding skins, metal, gems, sand/glass, clay etc. all very heavy)
Eredel
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Strykr - 11/4/2006 10:44 AM
Lilswanwillow - 11/3/2006 2:42 PM
monthly chest wipes?
I have never and will never own a home, rent a home, or need chests outside of the bank chests. Portals are nice, but usually unnessasary.
I think, its an argument: time for the team vs lag monster. mayhaps the team can come to terms with the lag monster sometime without this, but people aren't policing themselves. At all. This is evident because of the restrictions placed under the new submissions, the extreme lag because of what people carry in thier inventories, the crud in thier homes...
something needs to be changed, but noone wants to change? how bout a complete wipe of the housing system. Take it all away, and re-imburse gold for what the house and only the house cost. PC's can only purchase and have one house, even as a co-owner. houses can only have 2 rooms. Each house can only hold 10 chests.
that MAY change a LOT. and then, people whom can't limit themselves won't have to.
and I don't care who gets mad at me for saying so ;)
Why don't we just remove the whole CNR/crafting system as well? Based on much of what you are saying, that is the real problem. But if you are for that, I certainly hope you aren't using any magic gloves, rings, belts, etc. Us crafters tend to need to acquire a fair amount of materials to avoid hundreds, if not thousands, of trips to the craft halls. Food crafting for example. We must gather corn in mass loads for corn oil, meal, flour and eggs. In addition, say we wish to work on pies. Well you need additional 6-8 units of fruit. But are we going to gather only 6-8? Probably not. We may gather 6-8 of each fruit in our traveling adventures, perhaps a bit more if we happen to pass areas twice or other areas with similar fruits. Then perhaps we are passing by areas that also have items of alchemaic nature. So we gather those as well. In the process of all this traveling we happen to encounter creatures/monsters and find equipment worth taking back to town to sell or donate. Now our bags are getting very full.
Oh but wait, we happen to practice jewelry too. I happen to be a wizard and I cannot mine metals. Therefore I must pay someone to gather and smelt for me. And we all know that metal is rather heavy, especially if you have only a carrying capacity of 116 lbs with magic jewelry on. (Not including spells) Thus because I am physically weak, I should stick to just one or 2 crafts, or none at all, because I can't physically carry the heavy stuff. Take away our housing and chest then we are physically limited to natural and enhanced strength and many many more frequent trips to the craft halls.
This is all perfectly fine to those of you who aren't interested in crafting. But for many of the players in Layonara, crafting is a big part of this game as well. I'd say 90% or so of all my outings in groups are for 1 crafting purpose or another.
Now a limit to 10 chest or so is more than reasonable in my opinion. But the idea of monthly chest wipes is a bit ridiculous in my opinion, it places a lot of burden on us crafters to not travel for a portion of our night before with friends and rearrange our inventories to empty out our chests and then we are forced to sit in our homes or log until the wipe happens because we are all extremely over weight limits. (Especially when holding skins, metal, gems, sand/glass, clay etc. all very heavy)
Eredel
I couldn't agree more Eredel. Listening to a few of the people here post it seems to me they do not craft and only play here to grind some xps and the occasional RP. Like you said though, i bet they are sporting fine jewlery made by the dedicated crafters. That is hypocricy at its best. Crafting and RP are what have kept me on layonara since early 2005. With the way the current CNR is, removing houses and eliminating chests will destroy crafting. Then the new people who are trying to craft, will complain how unfair it is that everyone else leveled up their crafting skills with an unfair advantage.
Correct me if I'm wrong, one of the major problems with lag is when people log in the game with tons of items (mostly CNR mind you) in their inventory. While I know the storage of items in the chest pushes the database, I was under the impression that only when the chests are opened does it "lag" the server.
If you remove those chests all together, you will have more people carrying items on their person. You want to talk lag, wait until some of the crafters have to carry all their items around. Now if the entire crafting system was some how tweaked so that crafters didn't have to horde CNR (even if it is for only for a few days while gathering enough to make a few items) by the chest fulls, then I would think it a great idea to limit storage space and housing.
Personally I love the CNR system and I don't think it needs any major changing. The gathering and storing CNR materials is a major part of layonara, and 90% of the reason why I ever go out and XP. To just throw out crafting and storage would undermine a lot of what layonara is. I am not saying that changes are not needed from time to time, but they should be in the spirit of what layo is and has been. Layo has tried a few ways of allowing people to store their goods and sell them in the past. I have played on Layonara long enough to have remembered when Ozy made his toon, and when I had a vendor set up in Hlint to sell my wares fore me. The vendor lag was insane and needed to be removed.
I think when monthly chest wipes start occuring, so should monthly wipes of xps, gold, and any equipment you are not wearing. If you don't get that level within a month of when you started it...you don't deserve it anyway. I hope people can see how rediculous that sounds. To address what Lilswanwillow said, I have never made, nor will make, a paladin or good aligned PC. So how about we remove the paladin class and all good aligned PCs made? Sound fair or reasonable? The lag monster will be tackled when there are less PCs in play with the removal of the goodies and paladins. It sounds as fair as your argument that "just because I don't, everyone else shouldn't either".
I really hope (and i know deep down you will) that the Layo team realizes how important CNR and crafting is to the Layo players. We love the system and it keeps a ton of us coming back. I love the RP here, the quests, the DMs and the history of Layo. CNR crafting is not the only thing that keeps me here, but it keeps me going out and xping.
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Crafting and CNR is more than half the enjoyment I get from Layonara, and it is for many others too. You can't craft here with out storage... sorry you cant! Too many crafts requiring other crafts.
Lets make a Compound bow for example... Woodcraft, Baking, Smelting, Tinkering, Tailoring.
Doing something as extreem as you promote Lanniswillow will send many people away from Layo... which isn't the objective of a growing world.
Drizz is right... openening a chest full of stuff will cause a bit of lag... but I never see a spike on my screen. However... id say 5 out of 10 players I see log in cause at a good 5 to 20 second lag pause right now....
So why are people making such a big stink about too much storage when it isn't what is causing the visible and often unplayble lag for us?
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Here's a bit of a hint why crafters need so much storage. For instance, one pair of tiger boots. If you do the cooking and alchemy that is needed as well as the tailoring, which some do, my tailor char included
1 Thread
2 Tiger Leather
1 Cloth Pattern
3 Essences of Grace
4 Dust of Fire Opal
2 Potions of Cat's Grace
equates to
2 spider silk
6 salt
2 Fire Agate Dust
2 Borbardier Beetle Belly
2 Yellow Mushrooms
2 Fire Beetle Belly
2 Cotton
40 Elderberries
5 Almonds
4 Dust of Fire Opal
2 Catnip
And about 15 different containers
if you make everything on the first try.
Also kind of explains why some things are expensive. That's alot of running around
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Ok well as a guild person I would like to state out something. I dont know if wny other guild is at the moment like the Angels, but we do not own a guild house, yet.
When we wanted to buy a house in Hlint, not to store more cnr, but to have a place to store what we wanted to sel in Hlint, we asked for a member to be present to buy one house. He was standing in line, like all the others were, but he told us that after only 20 Second, all houses that were availabel in hlint were sold. 20 second!
So instead he bought one in fort Llast, which is not what we wanted at first, but is a good alternative.
When you are 11 people who can craft, it takes some resources, many of those people uses the same ersources so to make sure every one can work you need to have many of the same cnrs stored. Which means, you make trips with the guild members and get the cnrs. But then, you need to store them, need to store the finish products and what you gather on the trips that you know can be sold.
It does take some place and probably, due to not always wanting to go on treks or not having your people around 24/7, you dont do much more than crafting or rp. And maybe you are those kind of players that dont go on trips with others because you dont know how those person work in a trip.. Will they rush, talk to long, not prepare properly, not have healing potions or kits with them, that would unltimatly make a simple trip be more dangerous than it shoudl be, so you wait for the people who you know you are safe to travel with to be there, online.
So what do you do while waiting for them to show up? You rp, but then again after some time of rping you want to do somethign else, so you craft and thus, even though you may have the same product 6 or 7 time in stock, you have what you have to work with. So you produce more, but then it takes more space, in that case you buy more crates to put the good and at one point you have no more space, when that happens what do you do? ask to remodel your house which cost an arm, two legs and half of your brain, and rightly so, as I agree that there is to many money going around.
No? then you do the next best thing, instead of paying more than what the house value is, you buy a second house, and store what you cant sell right away, because of competition, but you know you will sell one day and worked hard to make, in RP sence i mean, it's not hard to click a choice but remember that your character may be working hours to make what took 3 sec to click with your mouse, and you dont want to waste, neither the cnr that you got with your sweat blood and guts and some time with seeing one of your friends fall to help the guild get what it needed. For that matter, you dont want to waste that and in the same time waste all the efforts of those who were present to get it, what choice do you have then? sell it to the pawn shop for almost nothing and thus wasting it, or storing it for the time being, untill some one will need it and then make good on the time and effort it took to produce that equipement.
It's easy to say that guild are rich and that all their members are, but I can tell you for my self that this isnt at all that true. Some are yes, but I can tell you from experience that this is not true for all. Take the angels for example, at the moment the guild only has enough to buy its guild hall and furnish it somewhat, some of their members has more money than others because they go out on trip, while others have no money at all, because they have to buy some crafting materials that they need or have to pay back loans on a house they bought to raise their litle buggers and have a place to sleep and comune with their friends and family. Others have no housing at all and even less gold. That is probably true for a lot of other people who either are in organisation or not.
So saying that guilds are that powerful is not that true.
Did you ever aproach a guild to have a partnership? have them sell your products, keep a percentage and then give you the bigest part of the sale? we do it for some people, we could do it for you to if you wanted.
Yes it can be hard to be only one or two, but remember that this is how the server was intended, in all its meaning, as it is hard to go out and adventure or gather things you need, so much is it hard to compete with other well organised faction. It is how it is and I wouldnt change it for anything. We all agreed by coming on this server to what the rules and policies where, some of us knew before hand what the community was like, some didnt, but none of us ( i hope) thought that they would come here and get rich over one night without having to work for it, and some time have to work against other people who are working the same fields as you do.
How i see things is like this, you have two choices here:
1- you keep going like you are, with your friend, and have more friend come and help you but still have to fight over the people who are established for a longer time than you.
or
2- you make alliances with those who are more established than you and can help you start up.
The Angels were lucky to have some good friends who helped us a whole lot to get started. Not with money, but with suggestion and manpower. You guys know who you are and we thank you a lot for helping us. If it was not for them, we probably would not be where we are today. Maybe the point is than even if you want to have you own thing, you need to team up with more people who can help you. Which is by the way the idea of this server.
It might be true that there is people who are pushing the limits real far, but at the same time you can not put all the people in the same basket without looking at how they are working and where they have come from and the steps they needed to take as a whole to get to where they are.
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Drizzlin - 11/4/2006 12:41 PM
Listening to a few of the people here post it seems to me they do not craft and only play here to grind some xps and the occasional RP.
Classic statement.
The CNR contingent has some fine points, but there's no need to get mean here bub. Crafting, experience, any sort of progression... it is inherently, by itself, non-relevant to roleplay. It's what you do with it and while progressing in it that constitutes roleplay. So let's get away from the ever confused and angst-ridden statements like this.
Fine points, I'd just encourage everyone to refrain from making useless jabs.
Fun fun.
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Chongo - 11/4/2006 12:46 PM
Drizzlin - 11/4/2006 12:41 PM
Listening to a few of the people here post it seems to me they do not craft and only play here to grind some xps and the occasional RP.
Classic statement.
The CNR contingent has some fine points, but there's no need to get mean here bub. Crafting, experience, any sort of progression... it is inherently, by itself, non-relevant to roleplay. It's what you do with it and while progressing in it that constitutes roleplay. So let's get away from the ever confused and angst-ridden statements like this.
Fine points, I'd just encourage everyone to refrain from making useless jabs.
Fun fun.
While you have some points, saying "i don't do it so its not important and we should get rid of it" is just as much of a "confused and angst-ridden statement". Mine is just a tad bit easier to pick out because I don't try to hide behind a colorful story or a thesaurus. My statement is blunt, and only offending if it fits. Which should not be offending to a person who is actually here for only those reasons.
I'm not making a useless jab. I am giving my opinion of how I am understanding the thread. I am not putting anyone down. In fact I didn't even say, "my enjoyment of the game is different from yours, so yours should be removed", without thinking of the consequences of such a statement.
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Um... this was not intended AT ALL to get people sniping at eachother... It was to address the problems that independent crafters have in this world.
Please, please be nice. I have heard good arguments from both sides and I'd hate to ask that the thread be locked.
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If you need two houses to store things, despite what your intentions are, you're not selling things, you are hoarding things.
I don't think anyone has advocated removing crafting, or the CNR system, I think that was taken from a comment about "If you are going to wipe schests etc you MIGHT AS WELL remove the crafting system. I enjoy crafting, but I also don't have a problem spending 2 hours collecting the items I'm going to need, then go use them, instead of stockpiling enough to keep me busy for 5 hours to make 15 items that I then have to hold onto until they sell, one day... eventually.
I think the point some crafters are missing is that there has to be supply and demand. If you craft with no demand all you are doing is causing a glut in the market. Most customers are willing to wait another 6 hours - two days for an item, after all, this is a purchase they have been saving for more than likely for a week or more.
The last person I saw walking around Hlint trying to sell items was back a looong time ago when Talan used to walk around Hlint with his ring case and sell his wares. If you wanted something he didn't have in stock he would get back to you in a day or so with your order.
I guess what I am saying is that if you wait till there is a demand for an item then you don't need a ton of storage, definately far shy of needing two houses. As far as hypocrisy, how far is it from being a hypocrit to make 15 things just to sit in a chest in case one of them may sell one day. It's not out swinging a sword and grinding away at your XP to next level, but it could be said that it's grinding away at your craft levels, and it's a lot easier to RP with someone while you are out 'adventuring' than it is when you have crafting menues gobbling up your conversation screen.
Anyhow. I think what the point was is that
1) Craft guilds, who have a craft hall have a central location where people who are collecting CNR can deposit the gathered goods and finished product. It might not be the be-all end-all of convenience, ie, Hlint. But most people will go to where the merchant has it.
2) If people don't want to police themselves, why should those who DO be sympathetic because someone wants to have a dozen first and second level stat rings on hand of each type at any given time, plus the CNR to make more, just in case one might sell.? The idea of a guild is that you have a diverse enough group of members where you can send someone a PM and likely have whatever you can't harvest yourself in a chest in the guildhall the next day, then 30 minutes later you are sending a PM to your customer telling them their item is ready.
My suggestions, since criticism without suggesting solutions isn't productive.
1) Those who want to start a craft guild start a thread in the trade and market hall with their guilds name, where customers can view a list of items in stock, a list of items available to be made, and a list of members so they can seek someone out in game to arrange a purchase or CC: a single PM to everyone in the guild. I see a lot of individuals with incidental items to sell in that section of the forums, but few groups.
2) Keep track of what sells and what doesn't Get someone to make a spreadsheet to track sales and as you notice trends you can begin to anticipate peoples needs. That way you don't have 10 items taking up space in a chest that may NEVER sell.
3) Don't expect your guild to get you rich, it most likely NEVER will. Most of the people with lots of money spend lots of time out in the field, and have time to play regularly, and also have probably already purchased whatever items and stuff they are going to need for the next billions XP worth of levels :P They are also able to get to some of the higher end CNR, which are guarded by higher end guardians, which drop higher end loot, which eventually begins to accumulate in the form of a fat bank account.
4) IF you make items to order you don't NEED the overhead of a house, then two houses...all your time invested in CNR is going to a product thats already sold. If you want to hone your skills (or grind your crafting XP, however you want to look at it)accept the fact you are doing it for THAT purpose and then sell the things you make to the pawn shop.
Anyhow, thats my take on things *shrug*
Vyris
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Vyris - 11/3/2006 10:29 PM
I would be in favor of no player owned housing personaly. Perhaps once a person gains world leader status they could have a house customized to their liking, that would be kindof a cool reward.
If there were no player housing people would be encouraged to join trade guilds. If you want a room with some additional storage and access to a portal join a guild. In fact, guilds could become pretty powerfull organizations, just as they were in the time period that NwN is modeled after. There could also be religious organizations, like the brotherhood of Vorax for instance... etc.
I think it would be kinda neat. I own a house and I would be willing to give it up for a global system like that. Just give me a room and a 20 item chest and a 10 item wardrobe that both lock. As often as I actually spend time in my house that would be more than enough.
Vyris
Vyris is my hero.
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Drizzlin - 11/4/2006 2:05 PM
Chongo - 11/4/2006 12:46 PM
Drizzlin - 11/4/2006 12:41 PM
Listening to a few of the people here post it seems to me they do not craft and only play here to grind some xps and the occasional RP.
Classic statement.
The CNR contingent has some fine points, but there's no need to get mean here bub. Crafting, experience, any sort of progression... it is inherently, by itself, non-relevant to roleplay. It's what you do with it and while progressing in it that constitutes roleplay. So let's get away from the ever confused and angst-ridden statements like this.
Fine points, I'd just encourage everyone to refrain from making useless jabs.
Fun fun.
While you have some points, saying "i don't do it so its not important and we should get rid of it" is just as much of a "confused and angst-ridden statement". Mine is just a tad bit easier to pick out because I don't try to hide behind a colorful story or a thesaurus. My statement is blunt, and only offending if it fits. Which should not be offending to a person who is actually here for only those reasons.
I'm not making a useless jab. I am giving my opinion of how I am understanding the thread. I am not putting anyone down. In fact I didn't even say, "my enjoyment of the game is different from yours, so yours should be removed", without thinking of the consequences of such a statement.
Again, I think your wording could be a little less hostile. It's not productive. There's just no relevancy to playstyle in this topic and I have no idea why it's coming into it. These mass generalizations that anyone against crafting is here to 'grind xp' is just false. So why say it at all?
I don't think anyone's said that "I don't do it so its not important and we should get rid of it". I mean, I'm in Raven Trade Co.
So.. high five and a thumbs up and we're back to the nice talk?
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yup, it was an idea to show people what could happen if they aren't policing themselves.
I love the CNR stuff, I have been on here a year, and do not xp grind or whatever ya call it. RP mostly, since my highest lv char is 10, after a year of playing.
I NEVER said get rid of it. I made a statement that got your attention though, huh?
got your attention to a HUGE problem, which is too much stuff. I own, well... no magic items, on either character I currently have. Oh, cept ronus' boots. BUT this disscussion is not yell at someone because I said something drastic. This whole discussion is about people policing themselves.
Mayhaps instead of having your characters craft multiple things, only craft one type. Police yourselves, and this whole topic would not have come up.
One of the main things mentioned before people start crafting is "would your character in a RP sence WANT to craft?" A fighter, yeah, weapons and armor. a mage? why would a mage make armor. maybe bags, potions...
does it make sense for a ranger to craft anything other than leather armors and bows/arrows? a monk to craft anything? a cleric-potions. theives have thier poisons... dwarves have thier armor...
get what I'm saying. my statement was made to make people stand up and look, and that could be worst case senario!!! Maybe policing yourselves seems like a much better option now?
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I am not going to get into it, read the thread if you can't find where it was said Chongo. I even quoted it once.
Vyris,
As far as what you are saying, that has nothing to do with me (or 90% of the other crafters I know/talk with). I don't have a house filled with completed items, nor do I "flood" the market. We have to craft items to level up our crafting in order make the better things. I make things and then dump them off in the trash can or a pawn shop (I would donate them to my temple, but seeing how Ca'Duz's temple is destroyed...).
Now I know this thread was directed at guilds, but the changes offered affect the people like Tyrian and I who craft alone, without a guild. I have a house filled with partial items to make things, not items waiting to sell. I place things in the house to avoid lag that carrying the items would cause the rest of the server.
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Drizzlin - 11/4/2006 6:39 PM
Vyris,
As far as what you are saying, that has nothing to do with me (or 90% of the other crafters I know/talk with).
I thought it was pretty universal, for instance if you wanted to you could create a spreadsheet to track what you sold, and even keep tabs on your half created items.
I don't have a house filled with completed items, nor do I "flood" the market.
I said create a glut, creating a glut in the market happens when items are produced without demand, it creates a supply imbalance and undervalues the product. Flooding the market is something completely different, which would be to build up a big surplus of items (a glut), say 100 Iron longswords, then go out and sell those iron longswords at 2 for 500 coins. You have a situation similar to a glut, the difference being the items are all out IN the market, and now completely valueless, rather than sitting around in a warehouse, being undervalued and limiting any needed production.
We have to craft items to level up our crafting in order make the better things. I make things and then dump them off in the trash can or a pawn shop
Thats exactly what I stated in my post, it's a natural part of progressing in CNR, and my secondary point on that matter was you shouldn't expect to get rich from it (not saying YOU think you're going to get rich off it mind you). Which also brings up another point of view. Does everyone have to churn out countless items of dubious value to get to the next step in crafting? I have done it, but it's not enjoyable... Whats wrong with creating enough of the things that are valuable to your character for them to use? I have a character that doesn't make anything but bandages, that involves a little gemcutting and a little alchemy, but once those are effortless tasks for what he needs I'm not going to make fluff items to get better at it. My fighter made just enough armor to get a decent shot at making an iron full plate, and I won't touch a forge again untill I'm ready to step up to something better, and only if I don't have funds to purchase one.
(I would donate them to my temple, but seeing how Ca'Duz's temple is destroyed...).
Thats something completely beside the point, and if you wanted to raise a new a new temple and organize the fund raising I'm sure you could do it in an RP sense, then donate away. It's been done before.
Now I know this thread was directed at guilds, but the changes offered affect the people like Tyrian and I who craft alone, without a guild. I have a house filled with partial items to make things, not items waiting to sell. I place things in the house to avoid lag that carrying the items would cause the rest of the server.
I don't have any characters that belong to a guild, and I mainly craft with Jennara, who asks me to make things, we get a party together to go gather the CNR I need, then I give it to her, we gather the CNR she needs (or we gather everything at once) and she makes what someone asked HER to make, and then we're done. Usually we get some pretty fun RP out of it and we only spend a real minor portion of time collecting CNR. We have a few chests in our shared house, mostly full of things like coal, which we gather when we pass by it sometimes, unused ore chunks (after you go get adamantium you don't want to throw a piece away, you save it till you get 2 more :)) Or unidentified items that are waiting on me to make lore potions and identify then donate to Roldem most likely.
Anyway, I'm going to duck out, I'm starting to feel like a forum troll.
Vyris
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I would agree that hording finished items in the dozens is ridiculous, unless it is healing potions or something. Otherwise pawn them or donate them. I on the otherhand, whether you see it as right or wrong, keep plenty of necessary CNR to make the items I sell on demand. For instance, Scribing. I keep plenty of aloe, skullcap, witch hazel, garlic, graveyard dirt, etc on hand. Much of it not on my person. Then I have a box I carry with me with a fair amount of gem dust, as it is light to carry. I keep anywhere from 10-30 parchments of all types on me and now I can provide scroll services, somewhat, on demand. I may not have enough honey at times, but I try to keep 10-15 in a chest as well. And I'm always collecting corn for eggs.
Then there is ring making. Again, I don't make rings really for others, although I have. But I do keep plenty of cut and some uncut alexandrite and even some diamonds in chests at my home. Then my ox is usually loaded from 1-40 or so gold ingots which I must purchase from a supplier. But I must keep it in supply if I decide to work on rings or on demand.
Alchemy, well I really only work on healing potions for personal use. So I have aloe, and the other ingredients as needed.
Cooking...I'm also gathering cooking supplies for making pies and such. But I also have a fair amount of wheat flour in the house in case I need to make a bunch of bread for myself or friends. (My pies are mostly preserved for RP groups)
Lastly, tinkering. I like to create enchanting rods of fire for my arrows. Thus I must collect lots and lots of sand and make glass. I have to store this glass until my friends can get me a supply of coal.
I think the point is well made for CNR. Hoarding finished goods of more than a couple of items of each type doesn't, in my opinion make sense, unless they are consumables. But having sufficient supplies of CNR for creating items makes much more sense. Yes, you could certainly go on a long outing to gather all necessary items as needed for orders. But can you imagine getting a scroll order, for example, for level 2, 4, 6 spells of various types and not have the CNR? You'd have to get hickory, oak, mahogany, honey, various gems for dust, various plants or misc including corn for eggs to make ink. It would be a serious burden. Instead, casually gather items as you are out and occasionally go out with specific intent for other items, as I do for garlic and skullcap and various other things.
I think what it truly comes down to is self policing. But they may or may not work as proven. However, going to any other extreme is only going to cause a ration of anger from many crafters and potentially non crafters for the mere sake of narrowing game dynamics. Layonara is as great as it is partly because of the whole crafting aspect. Which does certainly enhance RP quite a bit.
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Vyris - 11/4/2006 5:22 PM The last person I saw walking around Hlint trying to sell items was back a looong time ago when
Ferrit pandorn is selling almost every day rom her ox in front of teh bank...
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Maybe there are too any crafters? Or too many crafters doing multiple crafts?
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Etinfall - 11/5/2006 11:51 AM Maybe there are too any crafters? Or too many crafters doing multiple crafts?
That would imply limiting who can craft, now two problems: 1 how do you tell someone you cant craft in that craft 2 how is that being fair to every one.
Crafting is an intergrated part of this server, and probably one of the things that makes this server that good. Saying there is to many crafters could goas far as saying there is to many red haired on this server, or to many magicians and so on.
These are all free choices that the players has, and taking it away is severly penalising people.
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My two cents...well, four cents...
First, Drizzlin & Chongo, 'nough's 'nough, whether it's put nicely or said flattly, it's cool. Oh, Drizzlin---"I think when monthly chest wipes start occuring, so should monthly wipes of xps, gold, and any equipment you are not wearing. If you don't get that level within a month of when you started it...you don't deserve it anyway. I hope people can see how rediculous that sounds. To address what Lilswanwillow said, I have never made, nor will make, a paladin or good aligned PC. So how about we remove the paladin class and all good aligned PCs made? Sound fair or reasonable? The lag monster will be tackled when there are less PCs in play with the removal of the goodies and paladins. It sounds as fair as your argument that "just because I don't, everyone else shouldn't either"."---I've never laughed so hard. :)
Second, some of us don't like the 'join the guild' idea. It's one of those things we bring to Layo from RL, you know "Fight the power" kind'a deal. My character (god help her, I haven't played in a while due to computer problems) crafts, she's not a great crafter...ok, she's not even a good crafter and her level is soooo low, well, she's better at fishing. She crafts just because she likes to. She'll craft a dozen robes and usually ends up dumping them in the trash. It's her hobby. Somewhere in one of these threads I read where everyone who crafts should join a guild is why I'm stating this...what would be the point in my character joining a guild? She rarely has money, so that cuts out on the guild getting any dues out of her and her skill is so low you'd have to dig a hole to see the top of it, so that rules out...well, crafting in general.
As what idea was brought in a looong time ago (look at the first 9 or so threads), have something like a flea market. You buy a stall, it holds 2 chests and a small storefront. You can keep whatever you like in the chests (one for finished products and one for the 'not yet made' stuff) and it's yours.
***LAYO'S FIRST STRIP MALL!***
*When Layo-mart is to far of a walk-
and the horse just broke it's last leg-
stop by the Layo Flea Market!
We have what Layo-mart won't stoop to sell!*
I could go on, but I won't. Just my 4 cents.
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I know this is getting off topic, but I want to chime in; when the Bazaar was added to Everquest, and everyone had a mule they could park and forget about with all their stuff for sale, two things happened; one, the human factor was totally removed from the game. Characters used to have one zone (mainly...EC anyone?) to shout out their wares, and deal directly with individuals. People had to interact. Two, the economy tanked, hard. Price wars were common and ugly.
Now, I know that there is not much in common between Layo and a MMORPG, but I fear that a marketplace would bring about the same problems here. And since it's been shown that we as a community (I include myself at times) sometimes have difficulty policing ourselves, I would say that it's a bad idea. Keep the trade board. Keep people in communication with each other. Create situations where people meet and exchange goods directly, in person. And keep those prices competitive.
My 2cp. Oh, and one house per person max, regardless of server. Just to throw a bone at the topic :).
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Honora, what you're saying kind of reminds me of my days on Ragnarok Online, Where The merchant class were able to set up shop in the street. In RO Prontera was like a big equivilant of Hlint. Now imagine the Hlint main road packed with merchants on each side so you could hardly see the road. Most of which on AFK just sitting there.
Anyway....
Back on topic...
I think Layo regardless is fine the way it is now. A market place only open at certain intervals would work out well because people would literally have to clear out at certain times therefore limiting the whole parking aspect. (But Then I suppose it would need to be regulated or a script would have to be in tact to open and lock the door. I dunno).
However I think setting up a Hlint Yard Sale (Maybe with the premission of the house owners behind the houses of Hlint because that place is there, and yet no one really knows) put on the calander perhaps once every two weeks so people can gather and sell their goods.
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Honora - 11/8/2006 7:22 AM
I know this is getting off topic, but I want to chime in; when the Bazaar was added to Everquest, and everyone had a mule they could park and forget about with all their stuff for sale, two things happened; one, the human factor was totally removed from the game. Characters used to have one zone (mainly...EC anyone?) to shout out their wares, and deal directly with individuals. People had to interact. Two, the economy tanked, hard. Price wars were common and ugly.
What I'm saying is that it would be EXACTLY like a flea market, If you ain't there to sell your wares, then your wares don't get sold.
LynnJuniper - 11/8/2006 7:39 AM
However I think setting up a Hlint Yard Sale (Maybe with the premission of the house owners behind the houses of Hlint because that place is there, and yet no one really knows) put on the calander perhaps once every two weeks so people can gather and sell their goods.
That's also a great idea. It's almost the same as a flea market but more like that huge yard sale that happens over here (start in Alabama and head north about 800 miles) every year...it's called the worlds largest yard sale.
Don't get me wrong, on WoW you can buy and sell things without even being online...while that's pretty cool, it takes away from the reality of it...if you walk in a store and no one is there, you take something and leave the money on the table, you get arrested for shoplifting and that money was there before you got there. Simply, if you're not there, you can't buy or sell anything.
Anyway, as Leanther said, scripting most of this would take more time than cost feesable...Maybe we could hint at this getting tossed into Layo2? *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*
:)