The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Varka on November 21, 2006, 05:45:27 AM
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I saw a post again about sub races and why they have been closed. And if my interpretation is correct (and I do NOT say that it is) players hates it but why is it closed?
I was about to make a really subjective post but deleted it and thought I make it from a different point of view.
Earlier I made a few posts about drow (and about how much I love them ;) ) but now I will take the discussion one step further.
The main question will be: Racial issues Rp’ed on Layonara.
First a hit right in the face for every single out there: Everyone should tighten their belt and play “Racial issues” better.
I will quickly say Layonara IS THE best RP place I have seen and people are rping good but can we not make it better? Should we not try to aim higher instead of accepting the level we are on now?
No matter if I see a sunelf, human, drow, assimar, giant, tiefling etc. Everyone is holding hands in Hlint and are good friends because:
- “We are dragoncalled”
- By character submission some adds a few lines explaining fore example why they accept drow or even humans (thinking of Grey Elves)
- And there are more excuses.
“Race issue” is something almost everyone avoids and tries to come easy around and why? Simple because it creates conflict and who wants that?
Further as none really are playing racial issues “why should I do it and have a lot of trouble” you think – and that is exactly the problem.
Yes, Layonara should of course be first of all about having fun…but the world was created with different races which have racial issues and LORE describes it perfectly. Everyone should play after those rules in my opinion instead of denying them or come up with excuses. And that brings me to subraces.
People tend to build a character where you combine race/sub race and class which gives you “static/ physical” advantages. (People tend to). Sunelf/wizard or Giant/fighter.
Mostly people forget that by choosing a sub race - along comes RP disadvantages but none are playing them and why should they? These disadvantages are something “non physical” meaning (and let me try so explain it) none can control if you play by the rules, or a player will not be punished for not following the common ways a race/culture thinks…. (And I am sure there are better explanations out there and LOWER XP IS A FAR TO WEAK DISADVANTAGE).
That brings me to my subjective statement here:
People/players until now have not been good enough playing these disadvantages meaning that Layonara has been flooded with sub races. And the only way for The Team to balance it out is to block these submissions because we - the players have “in some way” actually failed.
Would everyone be better at playing racial issues, I would estimate new players would after playing their drow for 2 weeks drop it (at least a bigger part) because it is way too hard…and submit another PC.
Something totally different:
If you believe your race, stats, knowledge of language, level, items or background (coming from another dimension) is something that makes you character special. Then you are wrong.
It is the RP and effort you put into it.
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one thing i have noticed is that besides the dragoncalled perming out several that i have known have recently,the new people are playing the tensions somewhat more
and new people i mean new characters
the new people coming around hlint arent used to being near a drow or a half giant or a tielfling and as such are doing very well with their fear and distrust and even downright hatred of such
in time all the dragoncalled will pass and then race tensions will be at their peak for there will be no reason for the human to trust the halfling he sees or the dwarf trusting the elf
without the reason of the greater purpose of the dragon to shape their views to an extent the world will revert back to humans with humans and dwarves with dwarves except for those few that are considered to be heroes or found in the tavern just passing through before their next journey
in my view i see the inital chapters of the inn at high moon
the locals distrust the adventurers but tolerate them cause of the coin they spend
but they will never call them friend
welcome to Dungeons & Dragons at its finest
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to be honest, Iago has only encountered a few who have reacted to his obvious heritage, much less than I was expecting. There has been a couple of individuals who have approached him seemingly only to point out that he is what he is. There was one lady who refused to have anything to do with him, which was fantastic, and there was another lady who seemed more than a little interested. Which would be funny if it turns out those most accepting of him are the folks he is desperately trying to avoid.
There are those who are making an effort, and there are also those who's character concepts or travels have given them a broader view. One of the biggest challenges is remembering that the PC's are not the NPC's. By definition an adventurer is going to have more of a wide-angle lens than say the local peasantry, who aren't going to really understand what goes on a continent away, or even care in the first place. They are the ones who are going to blame everything on foreigners, and incedentally those adventurer types who always stir up trouble (not to mention they hang around with all sorts of strange folk). Adventurers tend to be a bit more open minded because they have to be. It's the foxhole mentality, the people you quest with are the ones who are going to be keeping you alive until the cleric arrives with the potions and spells. If you can't accept them, then how can you expect them to accept you? Without some level of trust inherint in the adventurer community no one is going to be heading out into the Goblin Wastelands anytime soon.
Does this mean that everyone should be welcomed with open arms the forst time they wander into town? certainly not. What it boils down to is a dramatically shorter time limit on mistrust of a stranger. The other adventurers will accept someone fairly quickly, whereas the townsfolk might never do so.
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Good post Varka, and I totally agree with your statement. I've been battling with this argument for ages but poeple still seem to mingle too nicely which seems unrealistic in a multi-racial environment.
Anyway I'm staying out of this one. I've commented far too many times about these issues.
Cheers,
Polak76
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I'm as guilty as anyone of not playing tensions from what race people are and it's honestly too close to real life for me to do so. I know it's part of the game and I don't say others shouldn't do it if they want to (although it makes me really uncomfortable when they do) but I am simply not interested in role playing that way and it just isn't fun for me.
Yes I know we're talking about elves and dwarves instead of Asian and Black but still people use terms and phrases that are very close to what I have heard in real life. So reprimand me all you want for ignoring that part of the game but I will not do it.
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Very well written post Varka, and it's something that I have been thinking all along. Layonara is not all about goodie goodie role play all the time. There *is* always going to be tension and that is what makes this world real, more than any other world.
I think once V3 and the new changes are in place those races like Drow and so forth will have the racial tension etc as the players behind them would understand how the Lore works
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Well, I will only give my example here, Rain playes the racial issue on a diferent angle, He feels that the people should put them asside for the good of the people, to work all together, helping each others out. After all with the food going out and the cold getting stronger, do we realy need more hatred in between the races.
He has been raised by his father an elf and his mother a human, raised to be kind and generous. Although some life events temprorarly took those traitsaway from him, they were always imbeded in his character, so much that even when he was stirken by amnesia he still worked toward promoting respect in between the races.
So if you think that some people do not play the hate between the races, maybe you have to think that they play it the other way around.
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No matter if I see a sunelf, human, drow, assimar, giant, tiefling etc. Everyone is holding hands in Hlint and are good friends because:
- “We are dragoncalled”
- By character submission some adds a few lines explaining fore example why they accept drow or even humans (thinking of Grey Elves)
- And there are more excuses.
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it is not in m y character submission hehe.
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Still being RP no?
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I have to say that, due in part perhaps to the recent restrictions on races, when Gunther goes sauntering through Hlint there are some very obvious reactions from folks (usually jumping to the side of the road as Gunther goes blundering by). I've been on for almost a year and a half now and I think these recent reactions are the only ones I've ever seen. I wont lie, I'd like to play one of those liontaur things (cant recall what they're actually called right now and I havent seen one in months), but I think the restrictions have improved things in a roleplay sense.
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yes i'm still rping that this way.
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I on the other half have this "old school" type RPing. Celgar thinks all drow should die in horrible ways and when in a foul mood broods on ideas of hurting said drow. All other races he'll veiw with some respect till they do something down right evil.
I do feel that all drow sould have a hard way of living in layo.
There was the many attacks on hlint, the spellgard capture and 100's if not 1000's of peopel slaughtered duriung their occupation of spellgard.
There Was Kathrien that set celgar deeper into hate
Any old schoolers here will remember when Nuzzatch was a DM and sent hoards of drow after him after the first drow attack on hlint (well over 2 years If I remember..)
As i said I'm an old school D&D player any thing that isn't drow and looks closely humanoid and show some signs of being peacful will be liked. All else is fodder.
Just my 5 cents Canadian, 2.5 US.
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out side of character, i do agree that a race that is viewed as evil should realy have it hard, I'm sure that when I will create a new character, if its not from Rain's family, he will probably have the same views as the majority toaward the drow and all. Hum unless by the time i make it the drow can be picked up again.. then maybe i'll make one hehe.
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And so it should be!
And likewise Drow should feel the same way. Its what gives more realism to the world. And its not old school. It should be *how* its RP.
lunchboxkilla - 11/22/2006 3:42 PM
I on the other half have this "old school" type RPing. Celgar thinks all drow should die in horrible ways and when in a foul mood broods on ideas of hurting said drow. All other races he'll veiw with some respect till they do something down right evil.
I do feel that all drow sould have a hard way of living in layo.
There was the many attacks on hlint, the spellgard capture and 100's if not 1000's of peopel slaughtered duriung their occupation of spellgard.
There Was Kathrien that set celgar deeper into hate
Any old schoolers here will remember when Nuzzatch was a DM and sent hoards of drow after him after the first drow attack on hlint (well over 2 years If I remember..)
As i said I'm an old school D&D player any thing that isn't drow and looks closely humanoid and show some signs of being peacful will be liked. All else is fodder.
Just my 5 cents Canadian, 2.5 US.
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I think we've already done this, a few times.
most recently here http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=29635&posts=191&start=1
5 pages of it.
Vyris
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But Vyris, if you take away the endless rehashing of old threads what am I going to do at work? (Other than work that is)
*goes off to contemplate starting a thread complaining about meta-gamers and power-levellers . . . or maybe one thanking the GM team . . . maybe a count to some arbitrary number . . . *
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I agree with Varka on all of his points, but with Falonthas more strongly. We were Dragoncalled... But the Bloodwar has been over for six years, and the people of the world are already beginning to forget their struggle. The new adventurers, those seeking fame and fortune for whatever reason, have no singular bond to hold them together; their camaraderie stems from their own prejudices and relationships.
If a man were Dragoncalled during the Bloodwar, then he could be afforded some small measure of respect and perhaps trust, even if he is a Drow.
Nowadays, any man on the street is as suspect as the next, be he human, elf, dwarf, or raving Pyrtechonian.
Note: This was typed up WAY earlier in the day. I jsut never hit submit. So I'll edit it soon, in ll liklihood.
EDIT: Yeah. Even Pyyran has his excuses for not hating Drow on sight, though he's grown to heartily distrust them... He's an accepting fellow, and had never experienced yadda yadda yadda. It goes on, it's been hashed and rehashed and beaten like a dead horse for glue. Same deal with other races. Et cetera.
The thing is that there will always be people who don't want to RP the racial deal, for reasons that various people will find acceptable or total cop-outs. (Real life frustration and laziness, to name examples in order.)
And then there'll be people who do.
RP wins out, even if a particular player doesn't want to RP a certain issue. If they love to RP other things, they'll stick around. The ones who don't want to RP in general, leave. Eventually.
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Given certain limitations (No PvP) we are sort of forced to get along. Want to discuss true RP? Let's look at a typical day in Hlint:
A group of people are milling about the Benches. A Drow wanders close to the gate. THUNK! (The meaty sound of an arrow landing in a sternum) THUNK! THUNK! "Thank Toran we stopped his crime spree!"THUNK THUNK THUNK!
Race is skin deep, but you can be killed for it should some god demand it. If strict, unwavering RP is being called for, then GM quests are going to get lonely 'cause, really, would you want to group with a Mistie? or a Toranite? I think those two gods are unfriendly to everyone. Now, what do we do with a Corathite? They're out there. Do we do as out god commands and smite the crapout of them when we learn of their alliegience? Well of course we do! We are all devout sorts that do as we are commanded.
Meh. I don't want PvP. I don't want to hate someone on site just because they look different. I don't want to forgo going on a quest because I know a drow or a Mistie or a (Insert non-specific yet reviled race/deity combonation here) will be there. You want to play the hate card and shun those who your god would not approve of, groovy. I might be one. But play it the way you called it or don't post saying how awful everyone's RP is. Since you can't kill 'em, avoid 'em. I hope the middle of the Blood Desert is a comfy place.
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This topic seems to come in waves. Once a few months or so. I should have learned by now to have pretyped answers. :P
For people who has time, here's some reading:
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=29635
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After a small review of the post development I will just make some small notes here.
A) Summarize
1. It is about us the players (behind the screen) – do we play well the “racial issues”?
2. Can we make it better?
3. Should we try to aim higher or accept the level we are on now?
4. In involves all races and especially sub races.
5. Sub races should not be picked to be played not because of the “physical advantages”.
6. They should be played because of the rp behind them explained in LORE. With some variation of course. (I mentioned that as a disadvantage before – but it depends on who you speak with)
7. It is not only about drow.
The link you refer to Weeblie - it looks at the drow situation more than “general issuses”. Writers focuses mostly on drow. What is the problem, how can it be solve, tools, ideas, debate and so on.
And I will thank Allorian, Eight-bit and especially Etinfall for the posts on the former thread.
This post is similar to the other one but…
It is directed at the players behind the computer playing Layonara.
8. Do we play the “racial issues” well?
9. Do we play general issues for sub races well? (Yes I change it a bit now)
10. Can we make it better?
11. Do we need to make it better?
12. How to make it better?
B) General issues. (Yes I change it a bit now)
As Etinfall I will quote a bit from LORE:
Gray Elves are much more arrogant and aloof than other elven races. They regard every other race with disdain, even other elven races. They only have respect for other Gray Elves. Most Gray Elves are full of themselves, and usually only listen to themselves or other Gray Elves.
Deep Gnomes are distrustful, and treat every stranger as possible enemy. However, once they’ve given their trust, they’re loyal allies. They are not a passionate people unless it comes to gems and jewelry.
Tiefling: Due to their fiendish heritage, tieflings are a sinister and cunning people, often drawn to the path of a rogue and mercenary work. The majority of tieflings have an evil alignment and do not get along well with most other people.
When choosing a sub race along follow most likely “general issues” and not just hatred. By declining to play by these rules (with variation of course) and only accepting the advantage. Players in my eyes are at some point (not giving any value here as it is not static) metagaming.
C) Comments to others:
Falonthas and Stephen:
I did mention the “Dragon called” as it is merely used as an excuse by players “maybe” to avoid conflict. If there at some point will not be any “Dragon called” then other excuses will be used. That is why I brought it up.
D) Introduction
Debates are good, but I like to see tools, solution and ideas how to come around the problem that race cultures, issues, habits etc.
Yes, I have seen Leathars post about V3 and I am sure what I will suggest here will never be used or put on the list. Though I will share my idea anyway.
A-idea-that-for-sure-everyone-will-disagree-with-me
Now let me take out my Smith&Wesson here and empty a clip in my foot and break of this post
I should have used more time on the following part but it is late here.
The last part should be seen more like raising new questions/thoughts.
If the following was possible I will make a quick remark here that it should ONLY be done to future submissions and not to already accepted character submissions. Why? That’s a long explanation which I am not capable of giving or explaining the right way:
E) Assumption
I assume character submission here a done “with the good spirit of RP”. That would mean advantages like stats, resistance; special abilities would not have any influence for a character submission; as the player’s wishes to play a race due to RP which follows with the chosen race.
F) Idea & Solution
So why not make the system simpler?
Assume a player picks wants to play a sunelf.
By submission the player picks elf and gets only the common stats, resistance etc.
Only by choosing right skin color and getting a “label” by the GM saying you are a sunelf – you are becoming a sunelf.
I am most sure that 99,9% of you at thinks “WHAT!”.. maybe already upset and will not listen to me any more… so I am going for that 0,1% now.
G) Rules, Subjective opinion and answers:
According to rules, D&D and God who knows what I am sure there will be arguments after arguments about why a Sunelf is a smarter being and should have more INT – living closer to the sun, being close to God etc. etc.
My answer in advance would be something like:
“The only thing I see here are people which makes arguments by referring to the rule book why Sunelf should have more INT; but in the end it all refers to stats/resistance etc.
I would say, if you want a smart sunelf give him some INT.
And how can I say that?
It is because you see the combos again and again:
Sunelf/mage, tiefling/rouge, Giant/fighter etc.
Would sub races be removed then why should someone pick a sunelf for character submission?
It only has stats as and elf?
Why pick a drow if it does not have spell resistance but only disadvantages running around in Hlint?
The answer is simple: Because of RP.
The variation of races and sub races are fun I agree, but only as long that is makes difference IC.
Though if you make the game simple the only thing that would make your character special would be:
Answer: RP
H) Argumentation against myself:
If you take away sub races how far are you willingly to go?
I would keep the common race dividing stats to have some difference but not more.
Why is that?
Subjective: Because I believe there should be a difference though the balance should be placed else where. By race.
*Empties the last of the clip*
I) Reference
I have tried to play a bit with systems before Layonara but it was really really simple systems and mostly system-less games.
What happens when difference (and here I mean stats etc) between character becomes really really small is that the only thing you can hold on to is RP.
“Boring” is a thought most you would think (an assumption) but I would more assume that this would make you - as a player more RP active to become special
J) Ending
I am sure this will never happen on Layonara though I could wish for it.
K) NWN based on skills:
A friend of mine has worked with the NWN system for a few years. And he made his own system which is more “skill based”.
Would the Team be interested to see some of his work, hear his thoughts and opinion then you are welcome.
He checks Layos webpage now and then.
(He did some work on “the orc ring” for Harlas in the “Hunt quest”.)
PS:
- For the moment The Team blocks sub race submissions.
- Players want it open again.
- Maybe by making the stats of elves general (and the same counts for other races) maybe the Team would open it again?
- That would still not balance out the races problem now, but looking at practical terms I would estimate less would submit sub races due to the loos of “physical advantages” and the gain of only “disadvantage” (RP).
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//PPS: The Team should make a group which could help others (like me) writing posts ;)
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The link was indeed about the drow, but most of the comments can be generalised to all the "racial dislike". :)
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Here's the official 8bit view on racial RP:
If your character has a reason to be racist, be racist. If your character does not, do not. It comes down to the individual players to RP how they want, and no matter how many guidelines we give ourselves it will still come down to what's important to the player behind the character.
Nobody wants to make anybody feel left out. Most people who are playing a strange or unusual subrace don't want to be left out either. I find it unusual that it is easier to poke at a certain grumpy female Illusionist than it is a dark and possibly evil drow. But that comes down to the content of our character, and not the color of our character's skin. A pretty wise man said something along those lines.
The best way to get this to work in game is for the high level players, espically WLs, to begin picking up on this. Everyone knows this is a game, and if they are offended, we have ways to sort that out here. A tell goes a long way, and I personally feel that enemies are more fun to RP with than friends.
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When drow are treated like elves, drow then become dark coloured elves with better abilities. Elves hate drow and it should show, Tieflings should be distrusted on sight unless proven to be a genuinely decent person. Aasimars are often given the benefit of the doubt as they -look- to be good people.
Simply thats my view, if you want to play an unusual race, you need to accept the disadvantages with it. Fair enough this is an rp server and people want to have fun. If you don't want to be victimised and instead want to be loved by all... don't be a Drow.
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Weeblie - 11/23/2006 8:36 AM
The link was indeed about the drow, but most of the comments can be generalised to all the "racial dislike". :)
What Weeblie said...
The reason that post seemed Drow heavy, is that Drow are the the most hated and misstrusted race, which they deserve as a whole. As far as the other sub races go, there are few that are hated by all like the drow. Most simply hate a certain race for certain reasons. Of course Orcs and Goblins come to mind as being hated by all, but not like drow. I know that half-giants were discussed, but if you read their descriptions, they are accepted by humans and giants. Sure they may be treated like freaks by some, but they are accepted.
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UP'chee!
I'm bringing this back in light of recent events...
Mainly because I'm shocked by the amount of (prepare yourselfs to be amazed) Drows.
Okay, some are great roleplayers and good people - but still, when my elf enters town and suddenly someone mentions the word drow and three hooded people go "Yeah I'm drow! I'm drow!" I'm rather shocked.
People seem to forget that beyond us players the world is populated by normal folk (and not just the one or two NPCs we get to see, we should assume there are much more... when I go to port Hampshire it's only visually empty, technically I see it as a hub of activity - just an example)
And how would a common person, say a human farmer, that suddenly sees a drow (especially now in the darkages) react? He was grown up being taught that Drows are nasty people that sacrafice human babes and so forth... and suddenly 3 people who he was passing by earlier announce themselves such!
And that's just from a NPC prespective, my elf was also rather shocked and was quick to draw swords (of course, what would you expect?... ive had a few tells saying "they are much higher level than you, quit it"... what the hell??)
Suddenly you have a Toranite saying "Bla bla bla! these are good drows and you shall not harm them!" or some other thing, and a bunch of people will jump to their defence and finally the elf feels this town is mad and leaves... It's all nice and good.
But theres a limit, Drow are meant to be below ground - on the rare occasion we see them above ground it's ussualy a raid... renegade drows should be by FAR more secretive about their nature :/ and people (especially darn Toranites) should be FAAAAAAAAAR less protective of them because theres also an angry mob of farmers holding tourches and pitch forks at them :)
This also goes for any other "evil race"
opinions, anyone?
EDIT: Prepare for cheese!
Even Drizzt, although a hero of Icewind Dale, was never fully accepted by all... and needless to say beyond Icewind Dale (so your Drow might be a hero in Hlint... but the world is so much bigger, and againts all odds word doesn't travel that fast ya'know :) )
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There IS a reason Kell wears a hood all the time. :)
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Pseudonym - 11/21/2006 7:48 PM
But Vyris, if you take away the endless rehashing of old threads what am I going to do at work? (Other than work that is)
*goes off to contemplate starting a thread complaining about meta-gamers and power-levellers . . . or maybe one thanking the GM team . . . maybe a count to some arbitrary number . . . *
*falls down laughing*
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Well, maybe I misunderstand what being a Toranite means, but I thought it meant upholding justice and law. So, in my interpretation that would mean that said Toranite(s) who know said renegade Drow has done no wrong would be perfectly in their rights to stand against the Elf in the example, and even the 'mob-mentality' of the local NPC's. Further, even if said Toranite doesn't know whether the Drow is good or bad, upholding law and justice equally would at least require said Toranite to stand against outright violence against said Drow (or any other race) individual until such time as they could be properly and fairly tried and found either innocent or guilty.
Granted, said Toranite(s) may not exactly always be very happy about their lawful duty, especially if they have had past bad experience overshadowing their personal judgement of a given race, in which case exceptions can and possibly should be made, dependent on the individuals own degree of religious zeal, convictions, and the specifics of the situation.
If Toran has made one set of laws for some races, and another set of laws for other races (aka - segregation/race laws) then perhaps I could see your point that Toranites specificly should not be sticking up for Drow who have not yet been proven guilty or innocent of any law-breaking. As far as I know, however, Toran's law applies rather equally to all, save those heathens who worship the gods who are Toran's own enemies.
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Following your idea of a Toranite then.. he should let a drow war party in town as long as they don't attack anyone?
There's bliss in ignorance, and that leads to deaths. if he lets them in town just because they didn't do anything wrong he will be lowering his guard and letting them attack from within.
Drows are a backstabbing race, everyone knows that - I believe people grant them trust WAY too fast.
It's just like saying "Hey that Balor hasn't killed anyone... yet, let's be his friends"
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Once again I agree with WitchHunter here.
I think occasionally its good to remind people of the racial hatreds. What we really need is the drow to attack Hlint a few more times like the good ole' days. That should reignite some fury.
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Yep, give those mothers a reason to lock up their children :)
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Witch Hunter - 2/7/2007 5:48 PM
Following your idea of a Toranite then.. he should let a drow war party in town as long as they don't attack anyone?
There's bliss in ignorance, and that leads to deaths. if he lets them in town just because they didn't do anything wrong he will be lowering his guard and letting them attack from within.
Drows are a backstabbing race, everyone knows that - I believe people grant them trust WAY too fast.
It's just like saying "Hey that Balor hasn't killed anyone... yet, let's be his friends"
Firstly, A Drow warparty isn't likely to walk in peacefully through the front gates of any town. It is the job to the town guard (NPC's) to restrict movement of any such threats into the town. Therefore a Toranite could assume a Drow already within the town had been cleared by local authority to be there. Further, there are other circumstances that could be involved, and justice seeks facts -before- judgement. That doesn't nescessarilly mean that anyone's guard is let down, it merely means the opportunity is given for said Drow to prove themselves unworthy of such suspicion before unlawful action is taken against them. In the case of afforementioned Drow war-party, if they came under banner of peace, it is possible (though very unlikely) that they would be allowed into the town under special circumstance such as dissarmament and under armed guard, just in case, but again these sorts of things would be handled by local authorities who may or may not call upon any given Toranite pressent to lend support in the lawful handling of such parties.
What I'm saying ultimately boils down to this, A Toranite may well be suspiscious, but doesn't let said suspicions dictate whether the law is fairly or unfarily applied to each individual on basis of race or gender, though if certain religious affiliation is known or can be proven an individual linked to a god who is one of Toran's enemies is not considered under protection of Toran's law.
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you know, I'm trying.. hard.. to RP hatred.
but every time I do, I have 10 people jumping on me telling me that I need to accept them. some say that they have also helped stop the attacks on Hlint
I am very frustrated
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The NPC guards should react hostile to a new Drow in town, but they don't - because they're computer controlled, if the local guard was actually people I'm sure the reactions towards a new drow would be VERY hostile.
Drows are a tricky race, sending a spy to infintrate the city is something possible by them.
If we're talking about good Drow who want an opportunity - lets look at the cheesiest, and first case of them all: Drizzt.
The father of Drow PC's never had that chance, he proved himself without marching into a town on his first day on the surface did he? but it's an example I hate to give as everyone dislikes Drizzt in reality :P
Regardless, a good drow is 1 in a million (although we have quite a few) and I see no reaosn to trust any drow that enters town.
Let me sum up what I have to say: a Toranite shouldn't be suspiscious, he should be hostile - he should think about all the children that might die incase his judgement proves wrong, and everyone knows a good drow is as rare as...well, a good drow.
Taken from the race page of the drow:
"they are feared and hated by all the races of Layonara. They are masters of magic and treachery, trusted by none, not even each other."
Lilswanwillow - 2/7/2007 4:26 PM
you know, I'm trying.. hard.. to RP hatred.
but every time I do, I have 10 people jumping on me telling me that I need to accept them. some say that they have also helped stop the attacks on Hlint
I am very frustrated
EXACTLY the point im trying to make.
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I think they did Polak, but people still didn;t get it.
A week later they were back to normal again.
What is needed is an example from the top down. People neeed to see the WL setting an example. People need to see the experienced players expressing hatred.
V3 is going to be a lot better at this too. http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=30619&start=1&highlight=Layonara+future&highlightmode=1
pay paryticular attention to:
15) When the first phase of V3 rolls out the following races must start out as CN, TN, NE, or LE: Dark Elf, Half-Orc, Half-Giant, Half-Ogre, Orc, Goblin, and Duergar.
a) These races will start in their own location that is separate from the other races.
b) Hlint will no longer be the starting location and we will have two starting locations, by race & alignment one for the races and alignments listed above and the other location for all other races and alignments.
c) However both starting locations will be somewhat close to each other in order to allow the community interaction.
d) The only Dark Elves that will be allowed to start off as good-aligned are Clerics of Az’atta and this character will likely be able to choose their starting location. We might allow that in more cases, time will tell as this is not yet implemented.
EDIT:
i totally agree with you Witch Hunter. 100% with the point you are making about Drow
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I think you guys have been doing a pretty good job so far. Most of Kor's friends are people he dragged to the arena after threatening him in town, and he and dwarves rightly hate eachother with a passion. I quit playing Rakish long ago because drow were too accepted in V.2... He even wore a skull mask and a pirate suit and people would just wave and say hello and recruit him for work. I went through all the trouble of making about 4 different fill-body disguises and aliases just to find people trusted the skull headed drow more. As such, my interest in him kind of tapered off, though he has too much sentimental value to delete, being one of my first characters here ever.
Kor pretty much doesn't group with anybody unless they're some form of outcast freak or cultist, like Alice, Hector, Czukay, Ptol, etc... and that's the way it should be. I don't think I've been in a single group with him and an elf, and I KNOW he and dwarves do little more than exhange insults and curse eachother in their own tongues, angrily. Other than decadent humans, only halflings really have an open enough mind to be his ally (except Triba, who rightly threatens him) and most gnomes either run away or watch Kor with such skittish worry Grand himself could savor the fear.
It's strange though how cunning, slaving, magic adept and connving drow though aren't feared more than orcs from north of Hlint. I mean, you'd think the verminslayer from the layo-sp campaign would have come looking for Darilith by now with his robes of spidery doom.
I think it's the perma-loincloth from the orc skin.
Farros is an odd case as a tiefling who looks perfectly human. It usually takes people several hours of adventuring to catch on to his obsession with curses and bleak, dismal sense of humor... but even then most just think he's just a crazy human who's had way too much to drink. Of course he's a high-charisma bard, so I try to have him hide his true nature better than most tiefers are able to, given their fangs, tails, accents and weird skin.
Maybe I'll make a more obviously freaky and tainted one once the V3 changes come about...
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Witch Hunter - 2/7/2007 6:29 PM
The NPC guards should react hostile to a new Drow in town, but they don't - because they're computer controlled, if the local guard was actually people I'm sure the reactions towards a new drow would be VERY hostile.
Drows are a tricky race, sending a spy to infintrate the city is something possible by them.
If we're talking about good Drow who want an opportunity - lets look at the cheesiest, and first case of them all: Drizzt.
The father of Drow PC's never had that chance, he proved himself without marching into a town on his first day on the surface did he? but it's an example I hate to give as everyone dislikes Drizzt in reality :P
Regardless, a good drow is 1 in a million (although we have quite a few) and I see no reaosn to trust any drow that enters town.
Let me sum up what I have to say: a Toranite shouldn't be suspiscious, he should be hostile - he should think about all the children that might die incase his judgement proves wrong, and everyone knows a good drow is as rare as...well, a good drow.
Taken from the race page of the drow:
"they are feared and hated by all the races of Layonara. They are masters of magic and treachery, trusted by none, not even each other."
Lilswanwillow - 2/7/2007 4:26 PM
you know, I'm trying.. hard.. to RP hatred.
but every time I do, I have 10 people jumping on me telling me that I need to accept them. some say that they have also helped stop the attacks on Hlint
I am very frustrated
EXACTLY the point im trying to make.
And again you're missing my point about the way a devout Toranite should be played. Your argument again also only points out reasons why Drow should be distrusted. My point is simple, a devout Toranite will not -trust- a Drow at first, but also he or she will not join the mob mentailty and seek to kill all Drow on first sight as that would be contradictory to the teachings of Toran regarding justice. You can extend a measure of latitude for someone, and even stick up for their rights under the law even if you yourself do not trust them. You're trusting in the 'higher-power' of the law and your god to function as it should and protect everyone, including an individual you do not trust, but who -may possibly be innocent- and therefore -must- be protected under the law you follow and believe in until guilt is fairly and undisputeably determined.
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it be great if this only was a certain group of people-toranites...
but its everyone.
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Lilswanwillow - 2/7/2007 4:26 PM
you know, I'm trying.. hard.. to RP hatred.
but every time I do, I have 10 people jumping on me telling me that I need to accept them. some say that they have also helped stop the attacks on Hlint
I am very frustrated
Well you know I'm never one of those 10 folks in game =P
If you think drow are every where now, you should have seen it a year ago. The drow population is lower today and will continue to shrink with the restrictions. This is one of the reasons L put them smack down on special races. If you want, dig that old thread up.
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You know I play a drow, and he never trusts any drow when he meets them. He always suspects that they are plotting to put a dagger in his back. In today's three drow going "yeah" event, I thought that was funny. I was about to run out of Hint anyway, as I just finished one intensive RP situating being drow undead slayer trying to convince another drow that animating the dead is a bad thing.
I must say that the drow characters do catch a lot more racial hatred then other monster PCs. When you see someone saying that your character should accept a drow, it is because there is RP history between those characters. That being said, RPing the racial hatred that my character experiances has been a never ending burden since day 1. He does have a strong network of friends and allies, but at the same time he continually being hated on, even by some drow that hate Az'atta.
This thread has brought two interesting memories to my mind.
Celgar,
lunchboxkilla - 11/21/2006 6:42 PM
I on the other half have this "old school" type RPing. Celgar thinks all drow should die in horrible ways and when in a foul mood broods on ideas of hurting said drow. All other races he'll veiw with some respect till they do something down right evil.
Just my 5 cents Canadian, 2.5 US.
This reminded me of the time that Celgar took young dark elfs new to layo, Cymeran Vrinn and Nepp, into Krandor crypts. Demontrated his amazing powers by destroying all the undead, and delivered our two naive drow out of the crypts safely with the grand fathers ashes, bless his spirit.
As if all the racial hatred, and the ECL +2 was not enough....
I use to spend a lot of time playing my character on Layo. So much time in fact that I would get a lot of XP. Mind you, I was not leveling so quickly compared to a few extreme examples that I have seen, but I felt that my character should have an additional disadvantage to the ones that he already had.
So, I decided that I would Roll play that he was a very dusty man. In a nut shell, I decided not to give him eschew materials. Like a good disadvantage, it would handicap my character while enriching his RP. By the time he reached 15th level, I came to realize two things. One was that having to mine topaz every day of your life, is a BIG disadvantage. Oh man. The other thing I realized is that caring all your spell components, like 30 topaz dust, 16 leather straps, 14 mushroom powders, 14 carbon powders, 20 silver dusts, 10 diamond dusts, 8 sticks of charcoal, an iron bar, and a small book to holly text has the additional factor of lagging the server when ever my character logged in.
AeonBlues
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lonnarin - 2/8/2007 9:40 AM
I think you guys have been doing a pretty good job so far. Most of Kor's friends are people he dragged to the arena after threatening him in town, and he and dwarves rightly hate eachother with a passion. I quit playing Rakish long ago because drow were too accepted in V.2... He even wore a skull mask and a pirate suit and people would just wave and say hello and recruit him for work. I went through all the trouble of making about 4 different fill-body disguises and aliases just to find people trusted the skull headed drow more. As such, my interest in him kind of tapered off, though he has too much sentimental value to delete, being one of my first characters here ever.
Kor pretty much doesn't group with anybody unless they're some form of outcast freak or cultist, like Alice, Hector, Czukay, Ptol, etc... and that's the way it should be. I don't think I've been in a single group with him and an elf, and I KNOW he and dwarves do little more than exhange insults and curse eachother in their own tongues, angrily. Other than decadent humans, only halflings really have an open enough mind to be his ally (except Triba, who rightly threatens him) and most gnomes either run away or watch Kor with such skittish worry Grand himself could savor the fear.
It's strange though how cunning, slaving, magic adept and connving drow though aren't feared more than orcs from north of Hlint. I mean, you'd think the verminslayer from the layo-sp campaign would have come looking for Darilith by now with his robes of spidery doom.
I think it's the perma-loincloth from the orc skin.
Farros is an odd case as a tiefling who looks perfectly human. It usually takes people several hours of adventuring to catch on to his obsession with curses and bleak, dismal sense of humor... but even then most just think he's just a crazy human who's had way too much to drink. Of course he's a high-charisma bard, so I try to have him hide his true nature better than most tiefers are able to, given their fangs, tails, accents and weird skin.
Maybe I'll make a more obviously freaky and tainted one once the V3 changes come about...
Hheheehe...so it was you that used to play Rakish! Man, he was awesome...an absolute nut-bag.
I loved how he used to drift into boastful and bizaare speeches how he was going to take on the gods etc...He was a welcome addition to Ramanon's motley crew of misfits and vagabonds.
I must thank you for the amount of enjoyment I got out of listening to him. I remember my other comrads would send me tell's "who's this idiot?". "This guys insane!"
I used to tell them quite the opposite and to simply enjoy his ranting and raving.
Anyway its a shame that you dont play him anymore.
Polak76
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Gah only one in 10 people dislikes drow, where are the drow raids... where:(
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lonnarin - 2/7/2007 4:40 PM
It's strange though how cunning, slaving, magic adept and connving drow though aren't feared more than orcs from north of Hlint. I mean, you'd think the verminslayer from the layo-sp campaign would have come looking for Darilith by now with his robes of spidery doom.
You are right in so many ways. Keep in mind that Daralith has been on Layonara since Mid 2004. In that time he has done a lot to "work" his way into the cities and become "accepted, but hated" =). There was even a DM quest in hlint where a drow necromancer was brining undead into the town. On that quest Daralith was almost linched as the one doing it. Daralith hid behind a Toran paladin.
What a great deal of people who point fingers at how evil should be treated, forget the purpose of good. Sure there are some over zelous fanatics out there, but for the most part good aligned PCs have a higher purpose. If those PCs are lawful, they have a code that goes along with that purpose that can not be broken. Good PCs are bound by the law. Once a "good" PC starts killing everything they deem evil, without justification, they walk down a path of evil themself. Hatred? Yes. Slaughter everything in site, starting with the orc children and halfgiant babies? Come on now...
I don't feel anyone in their right mind can say that Tomas de Torquemada was a "good" Catholic.
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"... Once a "good" PC starts killing everything they deem evil, without justification, they walk down a path of evil themself...."
That is a great statement that "good" PC's need to read and understand. Everything needs to have a reason and such. Otherwise why even have an alignment at all.
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Witch Hunter - 2/7/2007 11:46 AM
UP'chee!
I'm bringing this back in light of recent events...
Mainly because I'm shocked by the amount of (prepare yourselfs to be amazed) Drows.
Okay, some are great roleplayers and good people - but still, when my elf enters town and suddenly someone mentions the word drow and three hooded people go "Yeah I'm drow! I'm drow!" I'm rather shocked.
People seem to forget that beyond us players the world is populated by normal folk (and not just the one or two NPCs we get to see, we should assume there are much more... when I go to port Hampshire it's only visually empty, technically I see it as a hub of activity - just an example)
And how would a common person, say a human farmer, that suddenly sees a drow (especially now in the darkages) react? He was grown up being taught that Drows are nasty people that sacrafice human babes and so forth... and suddenly 3 people who he was passing by earlier announce themselves such!
And that's just from a NPC prespective, my elf was also rather shocked and was quick to draw swords (of course, what would you expect?... ive had a few tells saying "they are much higher level than you, quit it"... what the hell??)
Suddenly you have a Toranite saying "Bla bla bla! these are good drows and you shall not harm them!" or some other thing, and a bunch of people will jump to their defence and finally the elf feels this town is mad and leaves... It's all nice and good.
But theres a limit, Drow are meant to be below ground - on the rare occasion we see them above ground it's ussualy a raid... renegade drows should be by FAR more secretive about their nature :/ and people (especially darn Toranites) should be FAAAAAAAAAR less protective of them because theres also an angry mob of farmers holding tourches and pitch forks at them :)
This also goes for any other "evil race"
opinions, anyone?
EDIT: Prepare for cheese!
Even Drizzt, although a hero of Icewind Dale, was never fully accepted by all... and needless to say beyond Icewind Dale (so your Drow might be a hero in Hlint... but the world is so much bigger, and againts all odds word doesn't travel that fast ya'know :) )
yeah Im taking it from here...
I totally agree that people thread drows way to nice, except some/few characters actually have some very good reasons to do that.
On the other side, I disagree that you (or people in general) just draw their weapons at the first drow no matter if it is 10 levels higher... think about it, if you ever met a wanted murder on the street (well ok, probaly not but just think it :p ) would you then jump at him and be the hero of they day, or get away as fast as possible? In my eyes, attacking or threatening a thing that you think is very very evil but also very strong is as bad as meeting the thing openly with a "goodday sir!"
EDIT: and like Leanther said, we have aligments.. Its not the side that seperates good from evil, its their actions. A good person might keep an eye on a drow or warn him, but attacking him unprovoked is a bad action. A neutral char might do that, but not a good one. (which by the way reminds me that its surprising how cruel and uncaring many good characters are to animals, but that is another discussion)
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Leanthar - 2/10/2007 11:56 AM
"... Once a "good" PC starts killing everything they deem evil, without justification, they walk down a path of evil themself...."
That is a great statement that "good" PC's need to read and understand. Everything needs to have a reason and such. Otherwise why even have an alignment at all.
That's true, but to a certain extent that also applies to other things like demons and undead...
There has to be a line somewhere, otherwise they will simply let their guard down.
Also, other than the good pcs around there are plenty that are neutral (I'd assume a simple guard is neutral) and have their families and friends before justice to consider :O
It's not only the paladins that protect drow.. it's everyone.
One of the most famous exuses i hear is "I've traveled with him before.. he's a good drow" - but what reason did one have to travel with him at the first place? :s
as for drawing weapons - that's just my character and his background.
He comes from a line of elven protectors and fighters, he was edjucated that way :p
As for jumping on murderers irl... if I could cast magic or draw a sword as good as my character can - hell yeah.
Technically we IRL are what NPC normal folk are... not adventurers.
I should consider moving to the underdark... less drow there ;)
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Witch Hunter - 2/10/2007 9:20 AM
Leanthar - 2/10/2007 11:56 AM
"... Once a "good" PC starts killing everything they deem evil, without justification, they walk down a path of evil themself...."
That is a great statement that "good" PC's need to read and understand. Everything needs to have a reason and such. Otherwise why even have an alignment at all.
That's true, but to a certain extent that also applies to other things like demons and undead...
There has to be a line somewhere, otherwise they will simply let their guard down.
Also, other than the good pcs around there are plenty that are neutral (I'd assume a simple guard is neutral) and have their families and friends before justice to consider :O
It's not only the paladins that protect drow.. it's everyone.
One of the most famous exuses i hear is "I've traveled with him before.. he's a good drow" - but what reason did one have to travel with him at the first place? :s
as for drawing weapons - that's just my character and his background.
He comes from a line of elven protectors and fighters, he was edjucated that way :p
As for jumping on murderers irl... if I could cast magic or draw a sword as good as my character can - hell yeah.
Technically we IRL are what NPC normal folk are... not adventurers.
I should consider moving to the underdark... less drow there ;)
erh... noone said they should let their guard down.
And my example... I will make it a bit more clear:
On a normal day you pass down a street with a few people walking around, then you suddenly regocnizes this murder from tv. Now, you don't have any weapons other than a little pocketknife, while it has been warned on tv that this murder is armed and extremly dangarous, would you then attack him? This is compared to you IG have a maybe 12th level character with a plat armor, a iron sword with lots of enchanments etc and the drow you're facing are lvl 26 with epic equipment.
And besides, if your character drawes weapon he must think the drow is evil. In that case he should think that the drow will respond his drawing of weapons and your character does not know that there is a rule that he can't be killed (and we're still working with the low level pc vs high level drow pc). Any character with an int of 10 would know that he would surely be dead if he draws weapons.
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How do I know the drows level exactly? for all I know he's a Drow, perhaps with a bit of luck I'd be able to tell his profession as well.
As for thinking a drow is evil - sorry I forgot the majority of them are good haha - A good drow is one of a million, the fact that we are swamped with them is because it's considered "cool" to play a Drow, and yes, he expects the Drow to draw weapons but he doesn't know if the Drow is powerful or not... Not everyone is gifted with seeing "Impossible" on a floating info box :O
Any char with an int of 10 would know Drow are backstabbing, and would know better than to trust one and let his guard down.
Let me put it this way: you walk out of town, see an Orc - what do you do? draw your weapons and charge probably.
And don't give me the "no I'd wait to see if he's friendly" because you probably did it a thousand times and again while leveling up... if not an Orc than a Giant :p
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I think drows should be assumed to be "level 20+" if you character's only experience of them are from the stories. :)
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what I mean with think he is evil, then that will be the case in 90% of all circumstances because most of the PC's arent so that is a fact.
You know why you see very difficult and impossible and not lvl 14 or lvl 20? Thats because you can't see their exact level, but because you at least can recognize their equipment look and so far. You character should be able to see, "this drow wears a platti armor, it sums from his sword, and there are several scars across him indicating he have seen many battles.
EDIT: well said weeblie. To shorten things, if things where as you character are supposed to believe, nearly every drow you meet is evil and it will kill you if you attack or provoke it. But if you character acutally like to be killed, then Im out of words and you win.
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But you don't know that 90% of the PCs are not evil because thats the rule of the server! thats purely OOC...
Recognize their equipment? I've seen people with burning swords at level 5, as well as 20... I've seen people wearing fancy robes at level 5 and 20.
What my character MIGHT see is "A drow in a fancy set of robes"... not a drow in "Robes of the Impossible Archmage+20".
As for actually seeing the material it's made of:
A) Most metals look almost the same, but they feel different to the touch - esecially after said Drow takes his armor and customizes it to look better.
B) Seeing someone in mithiril for example only makes him rich in my eyes, not powerful - I don't know about you but roleplaying level restrictions is silly.
As for assuming Drow are all 20+, not at all, they're not a race of demigods, they're simply evil.
Again, if we assume all Drows are that powerful what stops them from destroying the world? thousands upon thousands of epic level characters as the simple troops of grand armies... please, my character knows of his race relations with the Drow, he comes from a family that fought againts Drow (as all Elves eventually did) and is not scared of the Drow - but he is not an idiot to let his guard down around them.
And lastly - there is no "assuming levels" in game, there's assuming power :p
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Yeah, the reason I picked 20+ there is to say that drows are pretty much "epicy" in the eyes of the general population. Even if they aren't (though, most underdark drows that have come up here tend not to be the weak ones), they would most probably be perceived as such, because of what the stories say.
I believe the normal reaction of the drow is the one of running rather the one of whacking them... Unless, you are in the middle of the street, backed up by a large side crowd (read: drow burning mob!)!
And... Actually, that's a rather good question. There is actually nothing stopping the drow from taking over the world. :P
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Witch Hunter - 2/10/2007 10:12 AM
But you don't know that 90% of the PCs are not evil because thats the rule of the server! thats purely OOC...
And lastly - there is no "assuming levels" in game, there's assuming power :p
Try reading my post again! Im saying the same thing! The fact is 90% are good ok, but you character things it otherwise, ok?
And... my drow character is not evil, however it do still annoy me extremly when people start saying things that really really hits her deep and they keep doing even though I clearly state that my character just lost her head and would kill them many many times if it wasn't for the OOC rule (and its even worse when its characters that are supposed to be good, that hurt her so deep like that)
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Oh, by the way... The reason they are percieved as a powerful race is because the enviroment they live in.
Underdark is a harsh world, the weak are quite early wiped out. The adult drows are the ones who have survived. They are already the "elite". :)
Purely talking about game mechanics, a normal (average) drow might not be level 20+, but I would not hesitate to say at least 15+. If you walk around and talk with the "most powerful good people", you will most probably notice that drow are on their top-10 fear list!
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" clearly state that my character just lost her head and would kill them many many times if it wasn't for the OOC rule "
Which is exactly proof of what I have to say about Drow and why they shouldn't be in town :)
"Purely talking about game mechanics, a normal (average) drow might not be level 20+, but I would not hesitate to say at least 15+. If you walk around and talk with the "most powerful good people", you will most probably notice that drow are on their top-10 fear list!"
That might be so - but then again so would be guards that repel them, as it is clear that they battle Elves - so are we to assume all guards are level 15+
That infact most of Layonara are 15+? Doubt it.
If most people say that drow are on their top 10 fear list.. why are Drow so easily welcomed in town? before the rule forbidding subraces a drow would walk into town day one wearing no cover at all AND recieve assistance if he pleases so... are we nuts? :p
It appears so - but that's NO reason for my character to run away crying everytime he sees a Drow, i'm keeping my weapons at hand mind you, and I'm not about to let the fact they rate "impossible" scare me away - if that was the case then Layonara belongs to the high levels, and theres really nothing for a new character to do.
As for the underdark being a harsh place:
Uhh.. i don't see deep gnomes being a sinister race...
The reason Drow manage to survive in the Underdark is because they live in cities, protected cities - same applies for the Surface world, we live in protected cities.
Of course among the Drow there are elite warriors, but among the surface dwellers as well...
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Witch Hunter - 2/10/2007 1:58 PM
As for the underdark being a harsh place:
Uhh.. i don't see deep gnomes being a sinister race...
The reason Drow manage to survive in the Underdark is because they live in cities, protected cities - same applies for the Surface world, we live in protected cities.
Of course among the Drow there are elite warriors, but among the surface dwellers as well...
But in those gnome cities, it is as safe as it gets. They live in harmony. In the drow cities, they are probably safer out in the wild (granted their safty in numbers within the city keep outsiders away). In the drow city the constant infighting and slaughtering of their own kind for personaly gain is the difference.
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Not quite, gnomes are subject to raids.
Drows manage to live in their society good enough, cruel as it may be it has it's benefits.
And regardless of that, if Drow are so powerful and mighty how come when they escape the underdark they're just level 1?.. wouldn't that require someone to be level..say, 20, according to your theories? :o or is this all just technicall issues.
Drows are not demigods, they are strong - yes, but so are the Surface Elves for example... the only difference is that the Drow wage war on almost everyone :)
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Witch Hunter - 2/10/2007 2:25 PM
Not quite, gnomes are subject to raids.
Drows manage to live in their society good enough, cruel as it may be it has it's benefits.
And regardless of that, if Drow are so powerful and mighty how come when they escape the underdark they're just level 1?.. wouldn't that require someone to be level..say, 20, according to your theories? :o or is this all just technicall issues.
Drows are not demigods, they are strong - yes, but so are the Surface Elves for example... the only difference is that the Drow wage war on almost everyone :)
They are ECL 2 for a reason. Sure they come out as level 1, but they are actually in power repsects level 3. They have never "escaped the underdark". The only reason drow have not taking over and killed every other race known, is due to their infighting. They hold themselves back with their chaos.
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I think you are underestimating the power of the drow.
The impression I have is that when drows are attacking a small village, they generally succeed. The guards would not be able to stop them from burning the houses, killing the villagers and do other nasty things.
What they would not be able to attack successfully is the much bigger societies, like... Voltrex. The elven continent is extremely powerful, more so than Mistone and Dregar (I think). And... heh... yeah... on that continent, the guards you would see would most probably be level 15+ (remember that not everyone is a guard). :P
Drows have attacked the surface cities before, and succeeded. Drow invasion of Spellgard springs quickly to one's mind.
A drow elite warrior would be truly exceptional elite warrior on the surface. The way their society works leave no room for the weak. A normal surface guard would be no match for a drow guard.
I didn't say that most people say that drow are on their top 10 fear list (as, obviously, most PCs don't have them as such), but rather that if you walk around asking the WLs, you will notice that they are generally not so very fond of drows and rather careful around them (rule nr 1: never trust a drow!). Or simply ask any "very epic" NPC like Moraken and I believe he would not disagree. :)
Layo doesn't belong to high levels but I would actually consider drows as on par with mindflayers. What would your character do if he saw a mindflayer? The same reaction of fear or bravery (hehe... stupidity?) should be for the drow. :)
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I doubt Drow, even united, could face all Elves united for example - it would be an even match.
The surface elves are just as skilled in magic and warfare and in any other aspect.
True that - those sent to the Surface are the elitest of the elite, but seriously how many of them do you think there are? theres a reason why Drows send "raiding parties" and not "raiding armies" :p
Not all drows know the Silent language, not all drows are as skilled... etc etc.
I don't think i'm underestimating drow, I think you're underestimating the surface world.
As for pairing drow with mind flayers... hardly! A drow is something you can charge and attack (TECHNICALLY, if you snap the neck of a 20 level character and you're level 1... he still dies :p)
A mindflayer would stop you before you made your first move, paralyze you and suck your brain out.
But again - all you're doing is PROVING my point.
Drow are NOT to be trusted because they are a powerful, sinister and evil race! - but as for my character, i much rather draw swords than run away crying like a baby - level or no level, he grew up with values.
Hector on the other hand...
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Actually, I believe the general view is that if the drow ever united, no force in the world would be able to stop them. The underdark is said to be much, much huger than the surface, and they would most probably be able to build up an army winning by cheer numbers!
Luckily, drows getting united is as rare as flying pink elephants. :P
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I updated my post, have a read.
As for the Underdark, it's big alright - but it's not entirely Drow :p
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The main reason that the drow aren't sending out raiding armies so very often would be because of the fact that they are unable to unite. They are rather spending their efforts on trying to get an upper hand on their neighbours than to mess with us, poor people, on the surface.
It is indeed true that the underdark is not full of Drow, but my point still remains. Layonara is different from... say... the Forgotten Realms, but the general "power feel" is usually quite equal.
If you read one of those books, you will get a look at how I see it. :)
And... yeah... I also agree on the "don't trust drow" part! But I'm just trying to explain that drows are generally more powerful than the surface races as individuals!
Edit: Hehe... not wanting to enter a discussion about mindflayers, but they are actually interesting creatures. If you can shield against their mental attacks (like... items or spells against mind trickering), they are even easier to kill than... um... a fly? Mindflayers are min/maxed creatures: Extremely strong in the mind, but equally weak in physics. :)
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Witch Hunter - 2/10/2007 11:43 AM
I doubt Drow, even united, could face all Elves united for example - it would be an even match.
The surface elves are just as skilled in magic and warfare and in any other aspect.
True that - those sent to the Surface are the elitest of the elite, but seriously how many of them do you think there are? theres a reason why Drows send "raiding parties" and not "raiding armies" :p
Not all drows know the Silent language, not all drows are as skilled... etc etc.
I don't think i'm underestimating drow, I think you're underestimating the surface world.
As for pairing drow with mind flayers... hardly! A drow is something you can charge and attack (TECHNICALLY, if you snap the neck of a 20 level character and you're level 1... he still dies :p)
A mindflayer would stop you before you made your first move, paralyze you and suck your brain out.
But again - all you're doing is PROVING my point.
Drow are NOT to be trusted because they are a powerful, sinister and evil race! - but as for my character, i much rather draw swords than run away crying like a baby - level or no level, he grew up with values.
Hector on the other hand...
you are totally getting this wrong... Non of us have ever said that drows should be trusted, they are evil, most of them very very evil. I agree that people are being too light on them. However that doesnt mean that people should be foolish and attack them, instead of keeping an eye on them or run away if they hate them so much. And as far as I recall its written in lore that drows united could beat the surface elves if not the surfacers.
Look, the general drow are evil, because there "written" exist a lot of evil drow NPC's. Viewing this from and in game in character point, the drow you meet on the street is likely evil. So if you attack it or provoke it will attack you, and likely kill you, because those evil drows on the surface, they're strong, else they wouldn't survive long with their evil minds among clerics and paladins.
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That's all nice and well - but please leave the way I play my character to myself.
if you want to run away, be my guest - That's not what my character would do.
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Allow me to reiterate the common knowledge of Joe NPC:
All Drow are Evil.
If you can kill a Drow, DO IT! But more likely, he'll kill you, and then proceed to eat your firstborn.
All Drow have powerful magic, and are equally skilled in combat.
ALL DROW ARE EVIL!
Now, the PCs in-game currently are (mostly) heroes. What does a hero do when a hero sees a threat? That hero deals with the threat. To translate, the hero kills the threat. Just like that hero's done hundreds and hundreds of times before.
Honestly, I don't see why the Goblin, Orc, and Drow PCs haven't been attacked on sight, just like the little Red Light Gobs that follow people in have been. Or the Orcs from the north.
Some characters might not attack on sight, but then, those characters shouldn't be attacking anything in the Red Light Caverns on sight, either.
I think my favorite spawn ever was in the Great Rift. It was a Drow Sorcerer... The description read something like this:
This sinister-looking drow holds a black staff, and is covered in magical wards. But he must be friendly, because all the Drow from Hlint are! (Correct me on this; I know it's not quite right.)
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/10/2007 9:49 PM
I think my favorite spawn ever was in the Great Rift. It was a Drow Sorcerer... The description read something like this:
This sinister-looking drow holds a black staff, and is covered in magical wards. But he must be friendly, because all the Drow from Hlint are! (Correct me on this; I know it's not quite right.)
oh, now THATS a good one!!! That made me laugh, thank you!
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Looking for... this?
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=309&photoid=7273
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Witch Hunter - 2/10/2007 2:43 PM
I doubt Drow, even united, could face all Elves united for example - it would be an even match.
The surface elves are just as skilled in magic and warfare and in any other aspect.
True that - those sent to the Surface are the elitest of the elite, but seriously how many of them do you think there are? theres a reason why Drows send "raiding parties" and not "raiding armies" :p
Not all drows know the Silent language, not all drows are as skilled... etc etc.
I don't think i'm underestimating drow, I think you're underestimating the surface world.
As for pairing drow with mind flayers... hardly! A drow is something you can charge and attack (TECHNICALLY, if you snap the neck of a 20 level character and you're level 1... he still dies :p)
A mindflayer would stop you before you made your first move, paralyze you and suck your brain out.
But again - all you're doing is PROVING my point.
Drow are NOT to be trusted because they are a powerful, sinister and evil race! - but as for my character, i much rather draw swords than run away crying like a baby - level or no level, he grew up with values.
Hector on the other hand...
What you are doing is giving your opinion and stating how you feel. I am going by the modules and the writers that created drow societies and the world of forgotten realm and D&D. Over and over they talk about how the drow have not taken over the surface because they spend too much time killing each other. I mean you can say what you think, what you feel, or how you disagree all you want. I play NWN and read the books written by the people who create the fantasy worlds these games are based off of. I have read ever single book about a Drow I can get my hands on. The "king" of Drow books is RA Salvatore. He writes in his book over and over that the only thing stoping the drow from taking over all of the surface is thier constant killing of each other and the chaos that is Lloth. Drizzt always writes about it in his journals throughout his travels. I mean if you want to say RA Salvatore is wrong, and that he knows nothing about the world he writes and creates, then go for it.
I would however suggest you become a writer first, and write the books that these games are based off of, and then get them approved. At that point then your opinion will be golden. Until you start writing those books, I'm forced to simply go off of the current writes and the games based off of those books. Even here on Layonara, going off of their LORE, they follow a lot of the same rules, guidelines, and histories of the races. What they change, I also follow, thus Drow on layo are ruled by both a male and female. There is no real point arguing with your opinion, when the facts are there. I suggest reading up on Drow.
You can argue all you want that Artemis can beat Drizzt in a duel, but when they faught, Drizzt beat him. Of course Jarlaxle cheated and Drizzt didn't "win", but he was the better. Why argue that when it is written in the book by the author who created the characters? I don't get it.
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A point about how your PCs react to drow boils down to proper, intelligent and respectful RP IMO. I play a drow, and I play him as evil as i can (with respect with the rules) and I go out of my way to be a thorn in the side of everyone, but I do it with intelligent RP.
In real life I am a huge MMA fan, and have even competed in small shows before at an amature level. I have friends who fight profesionaly and I go to events all the time (when i have time =P). As a fighter and high school wrestler, one of the first things I do when I see someone is look for signs of them being a fighter or wrestler. It is just out of habit. Cauliflower ear is a dead give away for a wrestler. If the guy started a fight with me, you had better believe I am looking for him to shoot in and take the fight to the ground.
There is not much difference when looking at the game. If you walked into a bar and saw someone sitting there with a club at his hip and a rusty dagger, you woudn't think much of them. However if you saw someone standing there in mithril, with scars up and down his body, you would think twice, even if you are some kind of bad arse. Sure your pc is confident and feels he can kill them, but respect is shown, even with hatred. If you don't, then it is IMO disrespectful RP.
When I am RPing my drow, and he comes across a divine champion of Toran, he wants nothing more than to drive a dagger in his back. However I RP respectfully and intelligently, using common sense. My pc can see the toranite is powerful, and in favor of his god. My pc smiles, says he is sorry, and tries not to over step the bounds of law. Is he a bit of a smart arse with the toranite? Sure, but not on the same level as he would be with a lonely orc or common rogue.
In the end it boils down to respectful RP on both sides. You can't let egos get in the way, it ruins the fun and spirt of the game. That is my two cents on that.
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//Edit//
Rather than drag this into a pointless argue me and Drizzlin are talking via tells ingame.
Lets keep this on topic...uh... more people should be racist.
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Weeblie - 2/10/2007 11:43 PM
I didn't say that most people say that drow are on their top 10 fear list (as, obviously, most PCs don't have them as such), but rather that if you walk around asking the WLs, you will notice that they are generally not so very fond of drows and rather careful around them (rule nr 1: never trust a drow!) (...)
Isn't this because to become a WL you must be a reasonable roleplayer?
Playing a character without prejudice IS simply bad roleplaying.
Casting aside all prejudices over board after a couple of days, weeks and months IS bad roleplaying. Sure, you may learn to trust a single individual over the years. However the "good" drow make out an infinitesimal part of the drow population (an interesting question: how on earth can such a cruel society foster "good" drow?). The chances of such individuals even coming to the surface is even smaller! In spite of that it happens now and then anyway! It can not be anything other than a grand scheme to bring down the surfacers (literally).
Point is, the WLs tread carefully and follow the OOC rules, without entirely abandoning the distrust of drow. They show caution and never trust a dark elf.
Bad roleplaying.
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Well said! it's all a grand scheme to bring down the surfacers!
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A slightly different take on the racial struggles is this: while there are evil drow, and a goodly number, the average Hlintian sees them on a significantly less frequent basis than he or she would see, say.. the threescore or so good-alligned drow that are rebels, trying to outlive their racial heritage. Partly due to allignment restrictions and similar, we have the primary interaction between characters who are Hlinting and drow-kind being one of good-or-neutral characters with good-or-neutral characters. It is therefore the RARE drow that most PC's (at least of a lower, non-underdark-exploring level) that is evil, with notable exceptions coming in the form of the multiple drow invasions of Hlint, which, while not exactly rare, are far from common.
Thus, when one rationalizes a character's reactions, one has to take into account the fact that while initially a character would be startled or shocked to see drow wandering the streets (of Hlint, especially), such sights would grow both commonplace and mundane, as they are frequently exposed to non-evil drow. In fact, if one carries this to its logical conclusion, the many PC's who have NOT experienced drow culture first-hand would likely begin to see the drow to whom they are exposed regularly (i.e. good-alligned rebels) to be the norm, and the moderately-infrequent dark-elf invasions of Hlint to be the exception.
Just a thought.
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LightlyFrosted, your reasoning is not entirely correct. I'll quote myself from another post.
Dark Elves are known to be evil, this is not speculation, this is a fact:
The Dark Elves have a millennia spanning history of War and Destruction. Bear in mind that there was a great Betrayal around -2311 which led the elves to separate (see the timeline). Agreed, this is almost 3700 years ago, but since elves can live to about 700 years, this is hardly long ago from an elvish perspective. So throwing the past away because it is long ago and elves and dark elves hating each other is stereotypical, does not really apply if you look at it from this perspective.
If we go forward in time, the Dark Elves captured the human city of Westgate in the year -103 (see the timeline), they destroyed the city of Port Hampshire in the year 843 (see the timeline, this is only about 500 years ago). I am sure if you ask several characters in Hlint, they can tell you the towns of Hlint and Haven were also nearly destroyed by the Dark Elves in the not-too-distant past. They also tried to stop all crafting by destroying and blowing up nearly every crafting location in Mistone.
Then at the end of last year or so (real-time) they laid siege to Hlint and nearly occupied it.
Then more recently, they started capturing people, poisoning them with a poison that will kill them if they oppose the drow. They then proceeded to lay siege to Spellgard, occupy it for a few weeks, then left after getting whatever it was they needed.
Therefore, treating them with an amount of distrust or even hostility is judging them on their past which is filled with evil deeds.
Claiming your character doesn't know about drow is very hard to justify. Dark Elves have been committing evil acts for millennia. This will have worked their way into local folklore, for example, when your character was a child he was probably told by his parents things like “Do not stray from home too far, else the Dark elves will take you” or something along those lines.
So your character has probably heard all his/her life that Dark Elves are greedy, dangerous, treacherous creatures who attack whenever they can and then as an adventurer you have surely been on quests where Dark Elves were involved (as enemies) or heard stories of such adventures.
The "average Hlintian" therefore, considers them evil.
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In addition to what EdtheKet said, I think it is not right to bring server rules (ie the alignment restrictions and so forth) into the interaction of the game to determine whether a Drow is friendly or not....and IMHO is a form of metagaming as you alluded to. The server rules are there to make sure that the quality of RP of evil aligned characters (LE,NE) are top notch, not to give characters a clue to say lets be friendly to PCs that are Drow!.
Most players think..oh just because the Drow i see is blue, and has a biography so it must be good. The history of what Drow have done in Hlint, is there for a reason and therefore should be taken into consideration when coming across them.
LightlyFrosted - 2/12/2007 8:23 AM A slightly different take on the racial struggles is this: while there are evil drow, and a goodly number, the average Hlintian sees them on a significantly less frequent basis than he or she would see, say.. the threescore or so good-alligned drow that are rebels, trying to outlive their racial heritage. Partly due to allignment restrictions and similar, we have the primary interaction between characters who are Hlinting and drow-kind being one of good-or-neutral characters with good-or-neutral characters. It is therefore the RARE drow that most PC's (at least of a lower, non-underdark-exploring level) that is evil, with notable exceptions coming in the form of the multiple drow invasions of Hlint, which, while not exactly rare, are far from common. Thus, when one rationalizes a character's reactions, one has to take into account the fact that while initially a character would be startled or shocked to see drow wandering the streets (of Hlint, especially), such sights would grow both commonplace and mundane, as they are frequently exposed to non-evil drow. In fact, if one carries this to its logical conclusion, the many PC's who have NOT experienced drow culture first-hand would likely begin to see the drow to whom they are exposed regularly (i.e. good-alligned rebels) to be the norm, and the moderately-infrequent dark-elf invasions of Hlint to be the exception. Just a thought.
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While I agree that it shouldn't be that way, I was simply pointing out that it may be a reason that bias against drowkind isn't really expressed all that often. People most often encounter good or neutral alligned drow, and therefore form their characters predjudices upon this basis.
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LightlyFrosted - 2/11/2007 1:12 PM
While I agree that it shouldn't be that way, I was simply pointing out that it may be a reason that bias against drowkind isn't really expressed all that often. People most often encounter good or neutral alligned drow, and therefore form their characters predjudices upon this basis.
Well lets change that! One meeting at a time =)
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Now theres some drow lovin' for ya'