The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: OneST8 on December 11, 2006, 05:08:06 AM
-
This thread is for the constructive discussion of White Wolf's EVERYONE READ! (http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=32815) announcement.
(Edit: yes yes I called him Dark Wolf as a typo, perhaps because I fail to see any good in his persona; I subconsiously associated him with "Dark Side" rather than "Light Side". Correction made.)
-
Speaking on behalf of myself and not as a Layonara Staff Member....
I'm not a customer. You're not a customer. None of us *pays* Leanthar to play here (donations have nothing to do with the purchasing or transacting of goods or services; they are donations after all).
The final note I want to make...
And it's time to remove myself from the Layonara scene once and for all.
Are you sure you can do that? I mean like you can't seem to stop yourself from creating account after account trying to prove something though I'm not exactly sure what it is you're trying to prove. It's all too wishy-washy and shifty-eyed for me to accept as a valid basis for argument.
-
I was banned some time ago by Leanthar, but I returned twice.
So, you broke the rules, twice more. Very mature. Congrats.
You think a first level character who gets crash-killed by a goblin and has the poor luck of loosing a soul strand will get reimbursed?
First level characters do not lose soul strands.
In this circumstance Layonara is a retailer, Bioware is the manufacturer, and the player community is the customer base.
Dan Scott cannot, by Bioware law, make any money off the server. Layonara is by your definition a consumer of Bioware’s as well. No one is getting paid; it is entirely volunteer staff.
These people come to your server and play here, allowing you the chance...the PRIVILEDGE to create your world.
Privilege? Really? Please create a world for us and then come back and tell us what a privilege it was. Be sure to mention how glad you were to stay up hours on hours every night making zones, writing backstories, and creating pantheons.
You are here to serve the players, they are not here to serve you, and you all need to take a moment to accept that. I was having a conversation with a player that I will not name and this player told me that Layonara is the GMs' sandbox and you need to play nice with their toys.
No one is here to “serve” anyone. This is not Worlds of Warcraft. This is not EQ. This is a family of people bringing something to life…as a team.
I'm writing this to voice a common opinion that needs to be voiced.
How nice of you to speak for all of us.
And it really doesn't surprise me to see who was added to the GM roster recently. Two of those people I have interacted with extensively, and I have to say: Bravo! You two are certainly cut out for Layonara GM-ship. They could have picked anyone more like themselves. I'm sure you'll add a great deal to the material and malcontent of the server.
Regardless of your personal interactions, people are chosen based on the contributions they make. What contributions have you made, or did you make before you broke a rule of the server so severely that you got banned in one shot? Did you write? Did you roleplay in such a way as to set yourself apart? Did you volunteer for anything? Or did you get reprimanded or spoken to for flouting the decisions made to keep this server’s reputation as high as it’s been?
It's why Layonara is in a steady decline, it's why you have crooked politics and favoritism, and it's why I "hopped" my ban and came back twice, and ultimately it'ss why I'm writing this.
So if I’m reading this correctly, you hopped your ban...twice…so you could take more abuse in the hands of crooked GMs on a declining server. Perhaps that was not the best choice?
I am also not bitter about my banning in the least, it was the direct result of a decision I made, and I paid the price for it
I would beg to differ, sir. I think your entire post was reeking of bitters. And if you are not bitter, and accepting of the responsibility of your decision, why did you come back? Would it not have been more reasonable to find a less crooked, less declining server? There is one out there that caters to powerlevelers with more flexible rules, perhaps you should shop around a bit.
Very melodramatic. I’m sure you’re quite pleased with yourself, but I’m sorry to tell you that your post is…well…ineffectual. You did not come across as a beaten-down victim of The Man, but rather an angry rules-breaker who has NO respect for the community, and certainly no respect for the team.
As a member of the team, I can only say, don’t let the door bruise your backside as you swagger out.
-
*wishing he was as eloquent as Honora . . .* yeah, ditto
-
And I was asked by someone to mention this, the way they are verifying that White Wolf is the same as Darkchild is by reading the Tells I have sent to other players and the Tells they have sent to me. So, in case any of you didn’t know; yes, they can and will read the Tell logs. So be careful, Big Brother is watching you!
Hehe... No, they can't. Fire up a NWN server and you'll see that tells aren't logged.
Besides, if the DMs were reading everything that's written... Oh, dear... Only thing I can say is: Poor DMs. :P
(I read my own chat logs from time to time and even that is far, far too much!)
-
*sighs, shaking his head, and points to Honora's post with a thumbs up*
-
Oh, sometimes I just love the Internet.
Wish people used more paragraphs when they write these sad stories about being banned. I mean it's all fun to read but kinda makes my poor eyes struggle with it.
I honestly expected to see this post soon. Since I saw your character White Wolf logged in game it was pretty obvious that others would notice that too and you'd just end up being banned again for creating an obvious character to start your second/third journey through Layonara with. I know some people actually put effort into the whole secrecy thing and it took me a while to realise who it was. So I don't think it's a case of reading people's minds (tells) in this case. You know it might just be someone you sent a tell to actually forwarded that to the GM's because they about had enough of you?
Anyway...
Did no one seriously ever tell you that Leanthar or any of the GM's aren't actually being paid anything and it's all volunteer work? That sadly seems to be what the whole post is based on.
But as you requested:
Save it, I want people here to read. Don't respond. I won't be here to continue this discussion anyway.
I don't think I'll bother responding to the other things you said. Waste of mine and everyone else's time. And people should have their own opinions of things anwyay. I'm sure they would leave if they were extremely unhappy with the world and how things were.
Good luck in life, hopefully you'll get over Layonara soon and all that.
-
Uhm, what the hell, might as well.
I know a lot of people are gonna say I'm crazy here. But just because you never actively engage in, or contribute to favortism, does not mean it is not happening. And, I'm not saying it is, I'm am saying is it is incredibly easy to believe regardless of what one factually knows for people to assume and feel there is favoritism. I'm sorry guys, but you shoot yourselves in the foot with this one just by nature of the situation. You have a very well established community, a lot of long time friends, some are players, some are DM's, some are both....
And lets be honest, some of the long time players really need to develop better people skills. And not take for granted that everyone may not know everything Layonara.
I'll give you an example, my first time logging into the server to play my character, I was threatened in character, and out of with 'false' authoritive tells. What do I mean by 'false', well, lets just say some old time players here tend to think they can just decide to wear the old DM hat when talking to new players, and try to have authority they in no way have. And thats about all I'm going to say on that.
So do I think the guy was right? No. Do I think there is some creadence to what he said, uhm, yeah sure. But, it is sadly all something that is too personally linked to a perspective to ever sort out. Just my opinion there though.
-
I didn't know Kiva very well, but what little I did perceive of his personality was of someone who calls them as he sees them. Does that mean there's a problem with favoritism on Layo? Not necessarily, it is in the end, the opinion of one person who was banned. However; the technical points he speaks of intrique me, but as I have zero experience with scripting or any of the other mechanical issues in NWN, I'll leave it to others to discuss the validity of his points. Do they merit discussion? As Honnora eloquently put it.. his post is full of bitters. I'd like to think that most of us who play here are mature adults with the ability to know what is right and wrong in regards to clearly posted rules. From what I've seen, those who break the rules here, know it and usually accept the punishment and are embarrassed enough to not come back or come back with a better understanding of why. Further, I think it takes true courage to leave Kiva's post locked and allow discussion of it in an open manner so I thank the team for allowing this.
That willingness to be transparent is definately one of the server's strengths and it goes a long way to solving what we call in IT the problem between the keyboard and chair - which is - all of us are human beings with all the faults included. Let's try to remember that a bit more. :)
-
Sheez, I was glad to see him go the first time.
And now hearing his absolutely ridiculous claims about L having to 'serve' types like him??
Darkchild/White Wolf, whatever, do us all a favour and grab a needle and pop that sick little fantasyworld you're living in.
Now, you made one good point, it's the community that makes a great server. Well newsflash, the gm's are as much a part of the community as the players. I have no idea where you get that "us and them" idea from.
Now I'm going to tell you, Darkchild, something and I know you'll read it despite what you said about not returning (you returned twice despite being banned, as if you can resist reading this post). I always considered you a leech from the moment you started, the type that just takes and never gives. Making ridiculous claims about your character and just taking your personal enjoyment from Layo without constructively giving something back.
Please don't come back.
-
If anyone has any direct questions regarding anything in the post by White Wolf/Kiva, I will be happy to answer them. I'm sure the rest of the GM Team is willing to do the same.
I don't do reprisals. I never have, and I don't plan to start, so don't be apprehensive to ask difficult questions or even give negative feedback. Just keep it constructive.
-
AbnerMojo - 12/11/2006 3:43 PM
I'll give you an example, my first time logging into the server to play my character, I was threatened in character, and out of with 'false' authoritive tells. What do I mean by 'false', well, lets just say some old time players here tend to think they can just decide to wear the old DM hat when talking to new players, and try to have authority they in no way have. And thats about all I'm going to say on that.
Those situations are best handled with the player directly, and if that doesn't work, send a PM to Leanthar.
-
I again have to point to Honora's post and say. "Spot on!"
You stated very well what was in my head and I couldn't agree more.
Whitewolf, seriouly, just..leave. Layonara isn't for you. That's ok. It IS for many of us.
We are adults. We are capable of making our own decisions. We don't need a poor, misguided soul like yourself to hold our hands and protect us from the big, bad, mean bogey-man.
Don't go away mad, just...go away. :)
~KK
-
Well, just a few words. There is some favortism. and some valid points he makes. Personally, I try to stay out of stuff like this, ignore it and try to have as much fun as I can. But there will be some people out there As everyone is human, there will be no absolutly fair system. Some will favor people, and some will be harsh towards others they dont particularly like. Its a human thing. Anyways, enough rambling from me, I really need coffee...mmmm..coffee EDIT: I am mad at imaginary actions I imaginaraly imagined him imaginaly doing. And at the point I will have an imaginary hissy fit and imagine imaginly exploding to satisfy my imagination.
-
EVERYONE DISCUSS!
Actually, I'd rather not. It seems like just another rehashing of the same stuff that comes up every couple of months. What criticisms were valid probably still are, for the most part, and what weren't still aren't. But the attitude displayed by the original posters usually prohibit any kind of constructive discussion anyway, and this seems to be no exception.
-
You know, something good has come of this. Really good. We sometimes forget how much we can get wrapped up in this game. It's like a real world to us; we talk about our characters first person, we brag about their accomplishments, and we often use "I" or "me" instead of "Michaelis" or "Kyoro". But, as it has been said so many times before, it is just a game. And Kiva's post demonstrates to us what happens if we forget that. There has been much said about gaming addiction, for example here (http://thread-view.asp?tid=32456&posts=21&start=1). And someone who a) comes back twice after banning while b) begging to get his orginal character reinstated and c) also (as a "different person") begs to get his OTHER banned character reinstated to play....Kiva has a problem.
I see this as an opportunity. Let's bring up those issues that the poll OneSt8 posted; if you think that there are problems, say so. It's there for that. And let's look at our own playing styles, and decide if we're so into this world that we would be in danger of losing the perspective that Kiva has already apparently lost. His is a cautionary tale, and one that can help us refresh our own separation of fantasy from reality.
-
I really hate to discuss things like this... because it is JUST a game as Honora has stated. I just want to say a few quick things reference his post: - Is there favoritism? Certainly. It's everywhere, not just Layonara. Maybe if he played by the rules etc.. eventually he would have been favored too. For the most part, the favored ones have put in the work to deserve it. -There are certain Gm/s ... well one inparticular that does belittle others with his posts/general attitude towards players. Does this bother me? Not at all. Does he get the job done? For free might I add??? YES! Will anyone that has to do with a virtual video game community really have this kind of effect on a mature person? I like to hope not.... but by whitewolf's or whatever name's well written yet immature post he seems intelligent enough to know better...>oops< Well he should have anyway. -One final quick thing that he was 300% right about. EdtheKet is by far one of the greatest assets to Layonara. His demeanor and attitude towards others is always pleasant and never overly authoratative. p.s. Thanks for the job you guys do. All of you.. even the ones that show favoritism.. and the ones that are not the 'nicest' ... After all... We Are All HUMAN. Lawrence
-
Faldred - 12/11/2006 12:33 PM
EVERYONE DISCUSS!
Actually, I'd rather not. It seems like just another rehashing of the same stuff that comes up every couple of months. What criticisms were valid probably still are, for the most part, and what weren't still aren't. But the attitude displayed by the original posters usually prohibit any kind of constructive discussion anyway, and this seems to be no exception.
Agreed. I blame the Full Moon dude.
-
Just link this/his thread to the Jimmny Cricket/Equinox one and call it a day...
Some people just dont get it... its a game.
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=13005&posts=44&start=1
-
This thread is for the constructive discussion of White Wolf's EVERYONE READ! announcement.
Hate to break it to you OneSt8. I think Honora pretty much summed up the discussion right at the top.
-He broke his server ban twice and returned.
-His post, although attempts to makes to make points is nothing more than accusations. He hasn't got his facts straight. (ie when DTs are taken, and when he makes a claim that the server logs tells).
There is a point that he alludes to . . .but I think that is already been touched upon already in the who thread about how "staff treat players" thread.
Oh and finally. . .what merln34baseball said. I think in 2-5 years from now, we will still look upon this post and say "what was this guy thinking?"
-
This is a pretty clear case of someone who does not have the full picture but acts on the little he knows, with some vigor I'll add. It occurs quarterly on average.
This entire concept of retailer, customer, producer is extremely naive. It shows the person in hand has played around with the toolset, understands a mechanic here and there, but has never really had to work with a group to do anything with this game.
Layonara is a gameworld sporting some... what is it? 50+ active staff. Hell, when I tried my spin at this all, I could barely handle working with more then 15 people. So these very quaint theories on lack of effort for such easy fixes are just really naive and failing to recognize the organizational structure that is the only thing holding Layo's massive staff together.
The comparison to a retailor, a provider of a service... it's bad one to make. This screams lack of understanding of what it takes to run a gameworld, and the incredible lack of reward. A retailor would be rewarded. The only reward Layonara recieves is brand name and pride. In grade school, junior high, and high school, these rewards substantiate effort, and all people are expected to deliver effort for these rewards. In real life they don't. You work for money. And if you aren't getting paid, and instead for something benefitting the people around you, then it is in turn the *community* who provides respect for what you do. This is what keeps volunteer organizations going that are trying to save the planet one tree or lost soul at a time.
Favortism.. *yawn*. I like favoritism. You know what favoritism is? It's the creator helping us out by pointing out the correct examples for behavior, class, and style. It is helping maintain a server in the image of what was intended. It is making the gameworld a consistently better place because there are standards right there in front of you. Act on favorites? I bloody hope they do! Make them GM's, make them producers for the module. It's common sense! The people willing and able will rise to help maintain the quality of their surroundings. Now, I'm assuming the staff will disagree with me on that entirely, because they do their best to maintain things in a fair and equal manner across the board with pretty impressive visibility. Call it my nationalistic view on Layonara. The little man always crys favoritism for a simple reason. He doesn't fit, or more often then not he doesn't rate, and should be booted out of the country so he can find his place elsewhere.
And everything spouted right there in that post perpetuates the vicious cycle of disgust. When you decry a group of volunteers, when you spray terms that basically imply they are hideous human beings, what do you expect as a response? Lack of motivation is what I would expect. Disgust. Because there's a lot of honest hard working people in there that just got called scum. When they're getting nothing but pride in return for their services. And you just ruined that relationship. No pride, no service, no service, no pride. Let's keep the cogs moving instead eh?
I really encourage you to start your own server. You're going to gain a few gray hairs over the years you end up lasting, and at around your tenth 'volunteer/employee', you're going to start gritting your teeth at your own systems and expectations. At around your 10th disgruntled rant from a player, your going to send an apology letter to Leanthar. And when your wife or girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, comes in one day and starts the conversation on the going tally for the start-up services you've been paying for, the $55/ month for your single low end low performance server, your domain costs, your website costs, and what it's totalled for that year, and the fact that you're always angry about it, that your helpers and volunteers burn out after two months because of lacking reward, and that you're juggling to keep it all together because you don't want to lose your efforts... you're going to send an apology letter to the entire community with lessons learned and hope that they listen and skip foward on the knowledge so they can just keep up the happy relationship that this all takes to survive. At least that's how it worked for me. Except the costs were a fair bit higher as I had 3 servers. And far too few donations, and far more outbursts. Good grief I'm happy to be here as a player...
Now multiply that all about tenfold, realize that's what they've actually pulled off here, and think about how long you would've lasted..... no pride, no service, no service, no pride... the cogs keep on turning. All the would be wrenches should pack up now and leave.
-
I don't plan on this being long-winded... But it may end up that way. We'll see.
Having been here over a year, and having let myself see the "favoritism" (heavy quotation marks on that one) that goes on here in the past... I can honestly say that this whole issue is moot.
Kiva said it himself. In a long-standing community, there will ALWAYS be some perception of favoritism, whether real or imagined. I can't argue that.
The thing is, it doesn't matter. We're here to play a game, take part in a community in a constructive way, and to RP.
I don't sweat stuff, big or small, and the truth is, there really isn't anything big to sweat about.
That's all there is to it.
-
I guess I do have a technical question (since Dorg offered). I know you said that tells are not logged by the server but here is my question: Can our tells be seen by anyone outside of the conversation?
-
Tells: no. Talk, whispers, party: yes, as usual.
-
Ug... my head hurts after reading the brick of complaint-text. Honestly, Honora said a lot of good stuff, as well as those that have replied "Ho-hum, another rant" have pretty well pegged my feelings on the whole thing. See you all in about 3-4 months for the next installment.
Vyris
-
The maintenance of the server comes from the GM Team's motivation and hard work, and also straight out of Leanthar's pocket, so the bottom line is:
Play by L's rules, or hit the road. ;)
-
If you dont like it here, try another server..
-
thought I would add a few more things:
Anyone that is equating WW’s analogy of the retailer/manufacture/customer to a monetary issue is missing his point entirely. Not that I am intending to insult anyone, just needed to point this out. He is talking about symbiotic relationships (SR) and any PW has a SR between those that run the world and those that play in it. There would be no world to play in without the world team (WT) and it would not be a world worth playing in without the players. I know that all members of the WT are also players but to make a world fun and full you need a large base of players and not all of them can be on the WT. Although any of them can be on the WT.
He makes the claim that WL status is for Layo world team buddies. We can dispel this quite quickly. How many of the WL group are RL friends with any of the Layo world team group? I know there is some overlap but that is another point that needs to be looked at. Not all Layo team members have WL PCs. That fact shows a lot.
WW said “I was having a conversation with a player that I will not name and this player told me that Layonara is the GMs' sandbox and you need to play nice with their toys.” I don't know why he finds this sad. It is true that is just how it is. If the GMs and Layo team were really acting as unfairly as WW thinks then the players would leave and the sandbox would be a sad and lonely place. But the fact is it is full and fun.
I have not always agreed with the team’s rulings on things. I know there is a guideline for SS reimbursement and there is a guideline for WL status. I have seen instances in both areas that I did not agree with and I sent L a PM each time. He has been consistent in his replies. They were along the lines of “yeah I know that was a hard choice but we have to stick to our rules all the time or the system will fail” (this is paraphrased). Not much can be said to that, at least we know that if we fulfill ALL the requirements we will get approved. Those requirements are pretty clear. If you want to do something, read the rules of the dispute forum or what it takes to be a WL and question anything that you feel is vauge. That is what participation is about.
-
I'm sorry if anyone feels this is off topic. But I think this 'Love it, or leave it' talk that can be tossed out here is related to the problem. I read that, and I'm gonna think, so what is this server about? Well it appears to be, play, shut up, and don't mouth off about your petty gripes.
I'm not saying that is peoples intention when they post it. But, it is not to hard to take it that way.
Like for example, I as a player have some issues with how poison and trap making are in their current states in the game. And how it impacts the rogue class. Now imagine that I have never read these boards before, and I read that?
I'm not going to think to write an intelligent post explaining my stance and why I feel it is a problem that should be discussed. If anything it makes me wanna find a new server to play on. Because it appears the community isn't even open to hearing me out or discussing it. And will view me as just another complainer.
It in essece inadvertently enforces a lack of communication. Which is perhaps the thing we should avoid first and foremost.
What I'd like to believe people mean when they say that is, don't try and get everything your way. But yeah, if you do have an issue, toss it out and we'll talk about it.
Also, it kind of tosses weight to the perception of favoritism in a way, when you see sevral people going to support a staffers position on a topic. A staffer replies, and lays it out. Hey fine, that's the policy. Now five others respond, not to say they are, but they come off as yes men. Especially if they do not offer the slightest difference from the all ready stated point of a staffer. Let me state again, I'm not saying that is what happens. It is how it can be perceived, especially to a new user.
I just thought that was worth mentioning.
-
jrizz - 12/11/2006 5:24 PM
Anyone that is equating WW’s analogy of the retailer/manufacture/customer to a monetary issue is missing his point entirely. Not that I am intending to insult anyone, just needed to point this out. He is talking about symbiotic relationships (SR) and any PW has a SR between those that run the world and those that play in it. There would be no world to play in without the world team (WT) and it would not be a world worth playing in without the players. I know that all members of the WT are also players but to make a world fun and full you need a large base of players and not all of them can be on the WT. Although any of them can be on the WT.
You're off base. Your idea isn't so much, but your interpretation of his statements is. He directly likened Layonara to a product sold to a customer. This is not a sold product. It can't be returned and was never bought. It has none of his aforementioned service guarantees nor warranties. The producer, retailer, whatever he wants to call it, is losing money.
"Can you imagine what it would be like if you went to a store to return a broken item and they yelled at you and blamed you for breaking it?"
Let's get a big reality check here. It's a borrowed product. From your neighbor. And you better believe that if you bring it back broken or throw it through their window they're going to yell at you. I can dig out more quotes if you need me to, though reading the entirity of his little thesis shows that his ideas are completely lost in the sauce as far as reality is concerned. His interpretation of the symbiotic relationship is extremely warped.
There's no doubt that there's a symbiosis between players and developers on a world like Layonara where the developing individuals are, at the core, acting out of benevolence. This is where this entire thought process is skewed, and it's surprising how many people really think this way. They are acting out of benevolence to keep this running. Players make the mistake of thinking that they are the integral key to the world. No offense, but we aren't. Sure, the developer's labors were towards a pretty grand world with a large player base. And sure, if the developers were the evil villains that he declares, they'd lose this massive player base.
But to say that we're needed to survive? Two thoughts on this:
1) We're not. In fact, if everyone were definitively an arse, like the example we're focusing on, I'm sure the developing individuals and those keeping it afloat would pursue the decisive action of making it a private server, they'd probably have a heck of a lot more fun with just 50+ good people instead of 50+ good people surrounded by a lot of pollution. There's no doubt that there are intruiging benefits to being a massive MP, but there's a breaking point people just fail to recognize. And it's presumptuous to start thinking this way. Sure, the developers will promote the importance of each and every player... but get it straight, it's because they're nice people trying to make sure everyone has a good time. And sure there's a colorful world emerging from it that gives the flavor that is Layonara. But it's not out of dire need.
2) Crunch the numbers. % of donations on either side. I think you'll find that this service demanding contingent is comprised of leeches. So no, not needed to survive.
If you don't respect someone or something, then get away from it. Don't try to warp reality for everyone else so it fits together better in your conscience. If a server truly acts in the manner he declares, they'll fail. *looks around* Looking good so far! Flames can sometimes be percieved as a desperate cry to make something better. And sometimes they have some notable ideas.
The points in that thesis, however, did not.
That guy is lost in the sauce, his points only make sense to the most ignorant of the realities in running a world like this. And I really hope that he and anyone else feeling the same figures that out someday, because until then, they are in fact better known as: idiots.
-
You're right on all counts, Abner, but I'd like to state two things.
1) It really IS their sandbox. If we don't like it, we leave, and they spend their days lonely and unfulfilled.
2) Most people, when confronted with someone going off on an anti-Layo rant, will pull out the classic Sandbox quote. Myself, I prefer the Don't Sweat It line... Because, honestly, the stuff most of the irate players are all in a huff about isn't such a big deal. The few things that are important (like the traps issue, or Acrobatic Attack) get their due discussion, and most have been hashed and rehashed a dozen times... But the Dev team is still on the job.
-
AbnerMojo - 12/11/2006 5:57 PM
I'm sorry if anyone feels this is off topic. But I think this 'Love it, or leave it' talk that can be tossed out here is related to the problem. I read that, and I'm gonna think, so what is this server about? Well it appears to be, play, shut up, and don't mouth off about your petty gripes.
I'm not saying that is peoples intention when they post it. But, it is not to hard to take it that way.
Like for example, I as a player have some issues with how poison and trap making are in their current states in the game. And how it impacts the rogue class. Now imagine that I have never read these boards before, and I read that?
I'm not going to think to write an intelligent post explaining my stance and why I feel it is a problem that should be discussed. If anything it makes me wanna find a new server to play on. Because it appears the community isn't even open to hearing me out or discussing it. And will view me as just another complainer.
It in essece inadvertently enforces a lack of communication. Which is perhaps the thing we should avoid first and foremost.
What I'd like to believe people mean when they say that is, don't try and get everything your way. But yeah, if you do have an issue, toss it out and we'll talk about it.
Also, it kind of tosses weight to the perception of favoritism in a way, when you see sevral people going to support a staffers position on a topic. A staffer replies, and lays it out. Hey fine, that's the policy. Now five others respond, not to say they are, but they come off as yes men. Especially if they do not offer the slightest difference from the all ready stated point of a staffer. Let me state again, I'm not saying that is what happens. It is how it can be perceived, especially to a new user.
I just thought that was worth mentioning.
Right, but there's a line you don't cross on this. Figure out your expertise and make suggestions that match your paygrade.
In other words, if you work for Microsoft, and are a secretary who primarily makes copies and gets coffee for the office...
You Can:
- Log an issue with a broken copying machine to the appropriate manager
- Make a suggestion for a better coffee supplier
- Let the management know that one of the bathroom toilets is leaking
- Do some research and make a suggestion on a new copying machine that you think might be better
You Can't:
- Write a letter, paste it all over the company walls, that says Bill Gate's organizational structure is jacked up and he is a terrible terrible human being because of it.
- Storm into a VP's office and proceed to let him know his operations management is jacked up because a toilet is broken.
Microsoft is a bad example given a lot of people's opinions... let's make it a volunteer NPO instead that deals with saving alaskan wildlands. Transfer the level of audacity/ tact versus knowledge base.
Suggestions are a great thing! Just all of us should be respectful when approaching something that is technically or organizationally a bit above our paygrade. And yeah, telling the GM Team how to run the show is above my paygrade, and I'll be pretty darn nice if I approach a subject on that. Because I don't know the intricacies of their system, I don't fully know all of their rules, and I don't want to sound like an arse when I am truly trying to help fix something. People who storm the office aren't trying to fix things, they're trying to burn them down.
-
Great....now I feel like a lowly serf who'se opinion isn't worth hearing...
-
I must not be Lawful; "if you don't like it, leave," is not an acceptable response for me. Or perhaps it's more like "I'm Lawful Neutral," where it's not really the letters that make up the words of the law that are important to me, but specifically whether those rules are efficient and serve the purpose they are intended for, as well as being upheld across the board from a neutral standpoint.
The answer is not always yes. The DMs are not a collective entity with a label reading "The Team" on it. They are not perfect, nor are you granted +20 WIS and CHA when you are welcomed into it. While there are many people that are loyal to a fault every day and step up to defend without thought, I just can't do that. If everyone up and "hit the road" one day, there would be no more Layonara. I don't get along with every DM or player, nor do I care to try. I have friends among both, some who do not get along at all. I still have friends among the playerbase who feel viciously wronged by the DMs and rant about them solely on principle, just as I have friends that are the targets. It would not be healthy for me to be overly influenced by either, because neither would any longer respect my opinion. My friendships have made me a target several times in the past despite my attempts at remaining on the side of reason rather than preference.
It is important to understand that we're all players. The DMs come from the same pool that we play in. Are you perfect? Are you capable of making judgments every day about the same people you hang out with? Can you tell a friend "no," not just when they're doing something wrong but when there's really no harm done? Do you enjoy public scrutiny, having your every action looked at under a microscope and being dragged through the mud? Do you like having to opt out of things that normally you'd be able to enjoy without thought, but because of your status it would 'look bad?' These are not excuses but simply 'setting,' reasons that things cannot be perfect 100% of the time. Just because things don't always go the way they should--and NOTHING can ever please everyone--does not really lend credence to conspiracy theories.
If you think about it, knowing that the DMs come from players, can you REALLY imagine each of them getting along so well that they could pull it off? No! People can't always agree!
Saying "it's just a game," doesn't do it for me, because while yes, it is, it is a game that needs a working relationship between the community in order to be functional and enjoyable.
Are the DMs able to see things from a different perspective than the player? Frequently. Are they always right? No. Am I always right? Yes. I mean no. I mean most of the time. (*Shifty-eyes.*)
The thing that is actually kind of funny is how different the demands are when they come up. Stop being so hard on everyone! It's a game, cut us some slack! When the response is "which people do we cut slack, when, and how much?" it's just a frustrated mumble because no one wants to deal with it, they just know THEY want slack for themselves and their friends, and DEFINITELY not for a GM, WL, high level character, friend of DM, friend of WL, someone they don't like, or anyone that has perhaps earned it. Such is life. That's why things are tightened, not loosened--you can't give it to everyone that deserves it. I suspect the whole process will be removed completely; few understand that the alternative is not "a better system" or "being nicer," but simply "nothing at all," because it can no longer be kept up.
One of several sadder things in the post is that he is correct in that many people will be nodding his heads with what they read, never mind that he has proven himself a liar several times over (and a poor one...even I suspected that one when I saw the portrait and need to have the 'human' with abyssal and infernal blood, a reminder of the first submission from the shadow plane), regardless of whether you get along with him or not. You can still like a guy and be able to see the blatant untruths in what he says, whether it is from malicious intentions or simply fed-up misunderstandings. Even if you ignore completely the bitter and horribly biased generalizations, the outright lies taint the entire paragraph-less post and what minor points he may have had for someone (I assume they're there and I just couldn't find them in the text block) are lost.
If your goal is to make a point, take not the road of martyrdom, for its path is not paved with reason. But reason is not the weapon of choice for many, so those who automatically agree with the team without thought for whatever reason will continue to do so, those who disagree under the guise of agreement ("sure there's blatant favoritism and everybody sucks and I hate them, but its their right!") will continue to do so, and those who for whatever reason automatically disagree will continue to nod even if they don't have the courage to raise their hand after the person they are agreeing with is shot to pieces (would you?). Unfortunately nothing can ever be resolved or explained if it is never asked to be clarified, even when threads like these are created for that very purpose.
Having everyone discuss it does not actually close the gap; it merely flags it for awhile and lets people shout at each other from across it.
-
Additionally, two big points:
- I'm not on staff and my opinions are not necessarily shared by anyone but me and my 32 alter egos.
- It's quite clear that individuals on staff are a lot nicer then I am, so don't start thinking they share my level of disgust. I just think a lot of people take a gracious host for granted and are really forgetting any fragment of tact/ general manners.
-
I would just like to state that no team member of Layonara is saying "put up or shut up".
What I am saying at least though is that communication is fundamental to the fabric of any community and ours is no exception. If you have a question, comment or concern regarding anything Layonara specific you should be raising that question *somewhere* where the community can discuss it.
This is precisely why when I woke up this morning and did my normal rounds of the forums... I got two sentences into White Wolf's post, stopped right there, froze the thread and started a second one for discussion (cross linking the two). Next, I went and read the entire thing. Twice. I still couldn't fully absorb the mess that was his panic rant but one thing I discerned was that he was certainly painting a bad picture of the admin staff and GM team. That's when I started up the poll regarding how the staff treats the community because that is seemingly the most important point he got across to me.
All of this is in direct response to the poor communication practices of one individual who had he communicated with the general community and GM teams, things may have gone much different.
There's the forums, IRC, PMs, email, instant messangers, just about every known method of communication on the internet is supported by Layonara. (The only services not officially supported are things like TeamSpeak and such simply because voice com kills any chance of flexible RP.) If I didn't want you getting my email address it wouldn't be on my profile.
Personally I prefer the totally public mediums like the forums simply because *more* people can get involved in the discussions and of course this makes the process that much more transparent for all to witness.
Some things can be changed, some things can't. Don't know? Ask. Got a better idea? Share. Discuss. Come to a resolution. That's how it works. That's communication. That's community at work. That's *exactly* why the free software movement can't be stopped by greed. It's the community that makes it or breaks it but that doesn't mean we can't ever fix it.
-
So Chongo *smiles* you dont think the player base is one of the top key components of a rich and deep PW? *raises an eyebrow* You feel that a PW without a large and diverse populace is still a fulfilling user experience, just based on the areas, npcs, crafting system, mods, and all the other things that it takes? *looks stern and then smiles* I feel that all these things have equal importance and rely on each other to create such a rich and compelling experience, that keeps us coming back time and again? *pokes chongo and grins*
-
I don't really think that's what he said.
Edit for clarification, I was referring sort of to the everyone vs someone concepts but have typed way too much today...
-
OK guys... let's step back a second.
I realize what I am about to say is going to sound a little like self-promotion, but read and understand the words, not the person who's saying them.
Layonara is what it is because of 3 primary things:
1) Leanthar's vision and plan 2) Thousands of hours of work from the GM, Project and Writing Teams 3) Countless contributions, suggestions and actions (both in-game and out) by the Community.
What does this mean? Primarily, there are some things that are core and largely static within Layonara. These are the things that Leanthar keeps this way to maintain the integrity of the world and to stay true to his own vision for this world. Let's not forget, he's been building this setting since the mid 1980's. Ultimately, it's his, and as such, we're all subject to his "house rules"....even the GM Team.
There are other things which have evolved over time. No small percentage of these were due to player community suggestions and such. I can honestly say, without people voicing their "petty gripes" as one has said, Layonara would be different...much different.
So there are some things which are immutable, because that is the way Leanthar wants them to be. In as far as these items are concerned, there is a choice as to whether or not you as a player can accept those limitations. If not, then the choice to stay or go is in your hand entirely, and I'm fairly certain that somewhere out there is another server more to your liking. I don't say that as a "shut up and play" statement, but rather simply as a matter of being in a place that you can feel comfortable.
If there is something that doesn't seem right to you, bring it up. We'll listen. We won't always act, but we will listen. Everyone's opinion here matters, from the most senior GM to the newest player and everyone in between.
-
@ jrizz I suppose you could read what I said and put those particular words together to make a point...
Let me extract a different set of words, written next to each other this time.
"If you don't respect someone or something, then get away from it. Don't try to warp reality for everyone else so it fits together better in your conscience. If a server truly acts in the manner he declares, they'll fail. *looks around* Looking good so far!"
So again, Layo is a better place for the way they treat everyone and maintain this transparent/ everyone is equal/ all you opinions count policy.
What happened to mutual respect? You don't take that benevolent precendent and then defecate all over it because they said you had a voice here. And you don't declare that because you are someone that they said was important to them, that you can act without any semblance of deference to the people who are 1) paying, and 2) working for your gametime. The latter half being the important and most often ignored.
-
After being caught up in a really long story in Hlint that lasted three hours this post is coming a lot later then I intended it to come. Sorry for those of you that would actually want to read one of my rants I neglected you, just remember you’re the minority.
Normally I would steer well clear of this subject, in fact I would pretend it didn’t exist. This is simply because I am not a nice person by any standard unless that standard involves serial murder, genocide, and corrupt politicians. However it seems this is my limit.
Leanthar by his very nature is a absurdly forgiving person. When I had first heard that Kiva was banned I had assumed that he was simply asked to disappear since no one liked him. In turn he would generate a new account and things would proceed. When I bumped into him I simply laughed since a blind-toddler should of recognized his style its as obvious as my spelling.
So lets take his little ‘They monitor your tells’ bit. Lets say that our tells are recorded in the log file, in that log file is also the following.
1) Every single combat roll or dice roll.
2) Every single last bit of text we speak in any channel
3) Every single thing an NPC or Crafting Station Says
4) Every single bit of XP that is ever given out
5) Every single monster that does a silent shout
6) Every single load script
There are probably more, but I would say its safe to say that the text log is so flooded you would really have to be doing something warranting them spending ten hours trying to find any tell of yours much less an incriminating one. Assuming that the log file even has it anymore because it has more then likely been overwritten and erased from the 2 gigs of data a week it processes.
I have donated not even a single penny to Layonara in all the years I have played, not a cent. More then likely I am the single biggest bandwidth abuser in Layonara’s history since I probably have logged three times more hours then anyone else. If anything at all, I am the provider of my Ozzyish Services and Layonara is paying me with letting me get away with this abuse.
The classic why isn’t this small bug fix addressed within ten minutes of its creation, I of course looked at the thread. It explains that the fix will be in next update, sure the fix itself already is likely complete. After all it does very literally take less then ten minutes to do so, however there is loading the module, making certain nothing else is broken, double checking the trigger, fixing this and that. Which is why Layonara does not update for every single small bug in existence. Instead it updates them all at once in one go.
Ok the water-drip issue, it takes about twenty seconds to load each one another ten to close them, about a minute to open each area, generally a minute and a half to find each one assuming you already know where. I calculated from my notes on the location of these things from memory alone so I’m missing some it would take 42 hours to fix each and every single one to be marked plot. Forty-Two hours of the most boring thing you can do with the toolset not to mention any setbacks due to crashes or any other instance and that’s working at peak speeds. I would put money on this issue being resolved in V3 before it even begins simply because the base object has been edited. Something that cannot be reverse engineered due to Bioware game mechanics.
Favoritism, Exploiting, Cheating amongst the DM’s. It happens, I’ve seen it many times over the years. Your really going no where with this just flailing wildly instead of being coherent, provide an example with a screenshot and explanation and Leanthar will handle it. Even his incomprehensible forgiveness can meet its limit, just look at how long he turned the other cheek to you coming back after a ban.
World Leaders, as I am one I feel any comment I make will be taken as propaganda. That said however I will do my best to coherently prove that at least one World Leader actually deserves the title and would be a World Leader with or Without the system. My first case shall be of course myself, if I can’t justify to me why I’m a World Leader then I should hand in my tools right now. Simply put, I’ll be telling stories in Hlint with or without that World Leader title, I was doing it at level one I will be doing it at level forty. That is the sole reason I ended up a World Leader, if you can solidly dispute that I deserve it I will resign.
My second subject would be Brac’ar Fireface, not many of you know him but that name, you may call him EdTheKet. Not many of you know him, that’s not a surprise he doesn’t log to many hours. This is not because he is negligent, not because he is incompetent or favoritism this is because he is busy. Well you can say we are all busy, but what he is mostly busy with is writing a handbook, detailing the world. Back before he was drafted to be a DM he was putting in about three quarters the number of online hours as I was, which is a lot of hours. Being an extremely talented Role-player he ended up a DM and he always is impressive in action. So once the third handbook comes out you will see him and will agree that he well deserves the title and even if he didn’t have it he would be a World Leader.
There you go two cases where the WL title matters not at all, people that would still be doing there thing. One whom can devote a crazy number of hours online. The other that makes the first guys job even remotely possible. So that is not one instance but two examples of reasonable World Leaders. I bet if I put my mind to it I could go down the line and explain why for each person.
I don’t like all the DM’s I’d actually like to see a few removed. A few DM’s no doubt want to see me banned. I can forgive them for being human, and as I’m posting this they have no doubt forgiven me. Though no doubt we will continue not to like each other. The rest of his rant seems to be drivel unworthy of my attention.
I never nodded in agreement once. He was on the right track with some things but either sounded like an idiot or went about things the wrong way so his point was missed. That in essence is my fourteen paragraphs of comments.
-
AbnerMojo - 12/11/2006 5:57 PM
I'm sorry if anyone feels this is off topic. But I think this 'Love it, or leave it' talk that can be tossed out here is related to the problem. I read that, and I'm gonna think, so what is this server about? Well it appears to be, play, shut up, and don't mouth off about your petty gripes.
I'm not saying that is peoples intention when they post it. But, it is not to hard to take it that way.
I am not saying your wrong, but....
consider it from my point of view, having been a player, a GM and then a player again after a break You stick around long enough and things like this seem to come up on a fairly regular basis, really, you could create a Layonara calendar off the regularity of some of these issues appearing in the forums.
Now, that being said I don't think they recur because the team doesn't care, in fact I know that to be a fallacy. The opposite is true in fact. I can relate from my experience on the GM team that hours and hours are spent trying to figure out the BEST way to do things. There is a difference between easy, fair, balanced and BEST. You're never going to get a solution that is all of those, but the GM team tries really hard to come as close as they can.
The reason that these things keep coming back is because despite everything that I said in the LAST paragraph, theres always a few people who get bent out of shape about whatever the GM team deems to be the BEST way to deal with whatever situation they get peeved about. After a while it just gets to be old hat to see someone who is getting banned come back for one last manifesto, or to see that "What I hate about how Drow are on Layonara" post, etc.
Thus, my "If you can't hang... drop" attitude.
Vyris
-
Funny!
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=32477&posts=10&start=1 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=32477&posts=10&start=1)
[INDENT] Just comes on the forum to let everyone know he's quitting for good and to spend a dozen paragraphs explaining why. Then does it again three months later. Sample Quote: "For real, this time." Punishment: Forced to actually quit.
[/INDENT]
-
Vyris-The reason that these things keep coming back is because despite everything that I said in the LAST paragraph, theres always a few people who get bent out of shape about whatever the GM team deems to be the BEST way to deal with whatever situation they get peeved about. After a while it just gets to be old hat to see someone who is getting banned come back for one last manifesto, or to see that "What I hate about how Drow are on Layonara" post, etc.
Ok...now I will say something.
Drow are mean, Vy!!!!!
said my piece.
This is my post and by no means can be legally purchased from itunes.
-
Yes I suppose it pays to travel with a DM or be a World leader. Yes it very much feels like favoritism to me. Yes the very higher ups look like a protected class.
But well...... The kings don’t eat rancid meet while their lords have fresh venison!
D&D is a feudal society as are all the other fantasy games and or books I've seen. The peasants don’t get the benefit of doubt and should not when it comes to DTs. If we can rise through the ranks, then other peasants will point at us and yell that we eat fat while they eat lean. Consider how dull would a Marxist utopia be to role play in? (Shudders)
I think most of these talks complaining about high level characters getting special favors are silly. Of course they do, they likely should and until we catch up we are jealous or I am anyway but I think that’s as it should be. In a perfect world we would all have a DM watching us. But that’s never going to be possible.
Sometimes DMs will have to make a judgment call on something and we may not agree with it. Oh well it’s not our call to make.
If you like to think in a role playing manner, assume the DMs are minor gods. What I recall from mythology was that the gods are capricious and its best for mortals to give them their due and stay out of their way.
It’s the fact that there is permadeath, other players and real gods (DMs) who make decision that makes me enjoy playing in a PW and in this one in particular. Will they make the same call I would all the time? Of course not and if they did it might be as if I was the DM for my own characters then it would feel like playing the single player game. Blast I died hmm….. reloads.
-
My two cents worth (1.5 after taxes):
First, let me say that I have been employed in management by a small mom and pop company and then later in a rather large corporation. In both instances we had an employee handbook that layed out the company rules and expectations for all employees. In the small company, that handbook was seen as a general guideline as to how employees were to be treated and what they could expect from management. Often the lines were blurred and rules bent by everyone from floor managers up to VP's because we were more like family than employees and being close has it's privelages. We did for each other and for the line employees and the company flourished and grew for a good while. As the company grew, the feeling of family faded, people took advantage of the lack of adherance to the guidelines and before long, people were talking lawsuits for favoratism and discrimination and the company was forced to reapply the employee handbook in a more defined sense.
Jump ahead a few years and I am now in management in a much larger company. The employee handbook is the law of the land and is followed to the letter by all from the tall to the small without exception. Employees are written up and policy followed up to dismissal for repeat offenses. Is everyone happy? No, there are occasional wrongful dismissal suits and disdain for the rules, but it is by and large, a fair system, not perfect by any means, but fair.
Ok, what is the point? The point being that we have rules in place on the server governing disputes, appeals, submissions, behaviour, and decorum that all are expected to follow. This ain't no mom and pop shop here. As NWN servers go, this is a rather extensive system that is set up. Although we do still feel like family here in a lot of ways, fact remains, that server rules are server rules. If exceptions are made and petitions granted for everyone regardless of merit, it is my experience that in the long run, it opens things up to widespread abuse and misuse. Is there favoratism here? Likely. Does it have great impact on the server? Not really. Why? Because of the strict adherance to the rules, processes, protocol that L and the DM team have maintained. Does everyone like the rules? No way! Are they necessary for a server this size? Absolutely.
I don't think anyone that plays here enjoys getting a DT or worse yet, having a character permed. But it is part of the process by which we all get better. We become better players, better at R/P, and better judges of our own limitations and character faults. I also don't think anyone here enjoys jumping through hoops in the grievance and appeal process to solve an issue in which they feel they were wronged. It would be nice if we could just trust people to be honest and fair in their requests and automatically grant any and all to the glee of the players. But how long would that really last before the system becomes abused and the things that players work so hard for become cheapened. I for one will take the DT and the hoops because in the long run, I know they will give a richer and valued experience to my time here.
Lets face it, rules suck, but that is the nature of rules. They restrict creativity, give us limitations and boundaries we wish were not there, and can be a general pain. But, at the same time they give direction, focus, and vision to what this server is all about and where it is going. L and his team have done what few others have done (in game or in real life I might add), taken a vision for what could be and given it substance. That is no small achievement on a small server and one of epic porportions on one this size. If that substance is to continue to grow and evolve, it will have to do so by continued diligence to the rules that it is based on.
That said, it is by no means a perfect system. If it were, the grievance and appeal section would be obsolete. There is always room for improvement. 10 years from now when we are playing Layo V6.9 with 12,000 areas and 20 continents (don't faint L), there will still be things that can be improved and things that will need to be fixed. But we need to keep in mind that this is a voluntary server. People that run it have lives outside of the game and one persons grievance is not a DM mandate to drop all things in life to fix the issue. Some things will be granted, others not and the 30,000+ players will still have to live with those decisions. The one constant will be basic governing rules that form the core of what the server is about. As long as those rules are applied fairly and consistantly across the board, players will find the experience rich and rewarding. Though I am quite sure the quarterly rants will still be there to deal with too.
Finally, we as players need to keep in mind that DM's are people too, and as such are subject to things such as bad days, mistakes, emotions, and opinions, any one of which can lead to conflict and disagreement. Each and every one of the DM's have their own personalities, thoughts, and vision that impact their interacton with the player base. As player characters, they have also been on the other side of the coin for countless hours and know the effect that a DM can have on player perceptions both for the positive and for the negative. While they have powers to impact players gameplay to a large extent, they are not all knowing or all seeing of what is going on beyond the screen in players minds. I can only imagine their perspective as many times I have sat back and watched someone do something, shaking my head and asking "what were they thinking?" My point is that while they are the shadowy big brother watching over the game and occasionally stirring things up a bit, the only one that can make a player have a good time is that player him or herself. All the ingredients are there for a rich experience, but it is up to the individual player as to what they do with them. If you want to take the experience and walk away with a foul taste, it is certainly possible. But for those with the desire to find the goodness, the richness, and the fun to be had here, you don't have to look too hard. The more you give the more you get.
-
Good thoughts Des.
-
You know I can't really be bothered reading everyone's responses as it took me forever to read White wolfs. I'm with Idii though, wish he used more paragraphs as I think i read the same sentence thrice.
Anyway if anyone here thinks so deeply about a computer game I reckon theyre got rocks for brains. Yeah I can agree with a few minor points he raised but overall he takes things so damn seriously I question what he does in life.
Overall I don't think this post needs any attention at all. Should have just deleted it form the word go. Whats this crap about consumers and manufactueres..etc? Poor metaphors of a feeble mind i rekon.
Anyway I've been fairly blunt. I think he's made me irrate for wasting so much reading it. I should have stopped reading after the first sentence.
Cheers,
Polak76
-
well, for the sake of saying it
I like it here, I hope I don't screw up like that, and go all freaky... I'll just be a hyperactive elfie, sound good? and you guys keep on ignoring people that are dumb like that, and everything will turn out right.
Its sad how they try to ruin the fun for us all