The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => NWN Ideas, Suggestions, Requests => Topic started by: Chnmmr on December 14, 2006, 10:28:09 AM
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Small suggestion here. Wood foraging is limited by timer already (90 minutes infact) so can the requirement of search and spot be seriously considered being removed? With that timer of 90 minutes and the need for search and spot (both cross class for druids) one can spend days trying to gather a single piece of wood and not get anything.
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i like the idea it'd probably help. But what would it be replaced with a wisdom check or just a certain amount found?
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wood foraging simply takes a campfire near teh tree
its part of the foraging prompts with the fire no spot or search needed that ive seen
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Search and Spot do factor into foraging for wood. Having said that, someone with zero search or spot stands about a 25% chance of finding some wood each time.
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A person with an axe can go up to a bunch of trees and take all the wood from the trees in about 5 minutes. Someone who has to forage gets one chance, and when you don't have spot or search as class skills that chance is 25%. Failure is a 90 minute wait untill you can try again, meanwhile the wood would have respawned again and said lumberjack is cutting wood again, and again.
I'm suggesting something like.... d20 + Druid/Ranger level against a DC of 20. Yes high level druids never fail... but they can only gather wood every 90 minutes (no matter where they go,) surely that is limiting enough?
As it stands, a Druid would need to wait -6- hours to succeed in wood foraging. How many CNR respawns of Hickory, Oak, etc is that?
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Wood gathering via foraging was never meant to be on the same level of production with someone chopping with an axe. It was included as a compromise to allow Rangers and Druids to gather wood without breaking dogma/oaths, encouraging them to burn a feat in order to equip the hand axe or putting them in situations of questionable RP as a result.
Sometimes, the forest does not provide very much that would be suitable for use in crafting. Sure there are sticks and branches all over the forest, but only a select few would be suitable for making staves, bows, shields and so forth.
I'm not entirely opposed to another way to check, but the current one was pretty well thought out before it was implemented, and the amount that a druid or ranger can forage is probably not going to increase in either case.
As it stands, a Druid would need to wait -6- hours to succeed in wood foraging. How many CNR respawns of Hickory, Oak, etc is that?
This is not accurate. It's possible, but it's also possible for less time...or more time. Again, the key thing to remember is that druids and rangers really shouldn't be hauling lots of wood from the forest.
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Well as it stands, Druids and Rangers which depend heavily on wood for their shields, staffs, arrows, bows, etc, can't craft their own as wood gathering is far too difficult for them and instead need to pay crafters to do so. How is it within the druidic tenants to trade with people who -cut- trees down for their wood?
Druids can only use wooded weapons (except scimitars and sickles)
Druids can't gather wood easily at all
No wood, no crafting, no crafting, no equipment
Therefore we need to trade with those who defile the forest by chopping trees down to get our equipment? How is that druidic at all? I understand the rp aspects of it being harder, but I don't think its fair at all for a class that is really expected to be self sufficient to have -such- difficulty in gathering the basic raw materials to -be- self sufficient.
Besides, the very nature of the crafting system forces people to consume vast amounts of resources to get anywhere in the craft.
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I would offer as a counter-argument that, at least in the case of druids, woodcrafting is perhaps not the best pursuit. Rather than contracting with someone who defiles the forest to obtain the wood, perhaps it is more fitting to contract with a woodcrafter to build the weapons in particular from wood that the druid would provide.
Rangers don't have as great of a restriction, RP-wise, on the chopping of trees, so in terms of bows and arrows, it's well within their ability, as long as RP is maintained.
There are several ways to RP this. My druid character has actually interrogated a prospective crafter to make sure that said crafter had respect for the forest and was not wasteful in his/her craft. He also supplies his own materials whenever possible.
I'll say again but in a different way: A lumberjack should be able to pull more usable wood out of a forest than someone walking around picking up fallen branches.
I and the rest of the team are aware that foraging is not equitable to chopping, nor was it ever meant to be. We understand that not all crafts are appropriate for all character classes.
Again...not opposed to a slightly different way of doing things, but it has to be balanced and in keeping with how the system was intended to be.
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Chnmmr - 12/15/2006 10:15 AM
Therefore we need to trade with those who defile the forest by chopping trees down to get our equipment? How is that druidic at all? I understand the rp aspects of it being harder, but I don't think its fair at all for a class that is really expected to be self sufficient to have -such- difficulty in gathering the basic raw materials to -be- self sufficient.
Why do you assume that anyone not-druid is going to be *defiling* a forest by chopping down trees? If you have that thought in mind, then accompany people who you wish to have craft for you and RP that you are pointing out where and what to cut for proper pruning.
Or use the foraging system and... be patient. ;)
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at least in the case of druids, woodcrafting is perhaps not the best pursuit.
I do not wish to sound rude or anything like that, so please tell me what -is- the best pursuit for druids?
Smithing? No
Wood gathering? No.. or rather very poor at it.
Tailoring? If a druids can get themself to kill many animals? I suppose...
Alchemy? All those plants we need to pick, all the gems we need to mine to get the dusts. Seems very destructive to me.
Cooking? Killing animals for their meat, picking plants -yet- again to cook, and do the many many hours of practice to get anywhere.
Scribing? Needs wood for the paper. Plants and animal products for the ink.
Fishing? Killing animals... admitedly for food.
Carpentry? Needs wood again.
I don't think I need to go on really, its enough to make my point. Lets also remember this sentence from the Folian S'pae section:
Folian approves of those resourceful enough to carve – often literally – their weapons out of what nature gives them.
But again, because of the very nature of the crafting system you -have- to use up a lot of resources. And when wood is hard to gather you're in trouble...
Followers of Katia usually use large wooden staves, which are actually strong, almost straight straight branches “given” by trees. They also often use longbows.
Again its essentially saying 'be self suffient', not 'gather wood and give it to someone else to craft for you'.
Rely not on others for your survival. Live free.
Kithairien quote. Again, self sufficiency, not 'find a crafter to make it for you'.
And so... druids of those faiths are expected to be selfsufficient. And thats very hard to do when the crafting system is resource heavy and druids can only attempt to gather wood every 90 minutes with a low chance of success.
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Trust me, I understand what you're saying.
In my personal opinion, and I've played druids in both PnP and NWN for 25 or so years (yes, really), including one druid who follows Folian here on Layonara, druids don't have to be all about "don't kill the animals". Let me cite some very real-world examples:
* Hunting of animals by humans (i.e. deer) is considered actually healthy to the populations of said animals to keep them from overpopulating. * Forest fires, generally demonized when people cause them due to negligence or arson, are actually good for the forests, as they clear out the deadwood and make room for new growth. Nature does this all on its own using things like lightning strikes. * There is a significant difference between someone who hunts an animal for one particular resource provided by that animal and leaves the rest to rot. One can make use of the skins/pelts, the meat provided from the muscles, the bones, the horns (if present), the internal organs and probably a few things I've forgotten, which is a very efficient use of a creature that has been killed. Contrast that with poachers who may hunt an animal for only one of those things, leaving the rest to waste. *While this is not a commonly-accepted concept, people are creatures of nature as much as insects and birds and cows and bears and fish. A huge section of the animal/insect kingdom survives by consuming other animals/insects. Some are omnivores and others are herbivores, but the point is: Nature consumes nature. People are no different.
On the last one, druids are people, and they need to eat. They eat what nature provides, be it a bag full of nuts and roots, a handful of berries, or a shank of pork. A druid would not, for example, go and kill every boar in a particular area in one go, but he would perhaps kill one and use its resources as best he could.
Now, regarding what crafts a druid can do: It's true that options are limited for druids, however several can be justified pretty easily both through RP and without violating dogma at all. And with respect, don't really agree with the idea you put forth that druids cannot pick plants. Remember that what is seen and can be harvested in-game is a small representation of what is ready to be picked. One is not, for example, clearing the High Forest of Aloe each time he/she goes to pick it. Those are just the places where it is most ready to be picked. Due to game mechanics reasons, they just appear in the same place every time.
* Cooking: I don't see how it's wasteful to pick plants and convert them into food. One can also become a very accomplished food crafter without killing a single animal. * Fishing: Why not? As long as the extras are not discarded. Fish too are subject to over-population, and druids need to eat. * Alchemy: Why not? The flours come from food crafting, the plants grow back if not over-harvested, gems are just another one of nature's bounties. Again, the druid could craft these things out of need rather than advancement in a craft. * Enchanting: Don't see why this wouldn't be possible * Infusing: Don't see why this wouldn't be possible
Druids, in my opinion, are among the most restricted classes in the game, and that's true for D&D in general. Yet in these restrictions are some very interesting possibilities for RP.
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Something else to think about in terms of wood, most dead wood would be unsuitable for crafting into weapons and armor. It can be carved into a neat knickknack for your living room, but having already dried in an uncontrolled environment, with no curing whatsoever, would make it brittle and weak, you need to take green wood and then treat it to make sturdy weapons and shields. And as Dorgonath said, to quote Tool "This is necessary...Life feeds on life", its about living in balance with nature, not trying to remove yourself from all connections with it on the offchance you might accidentally swallow a bug.
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Dorganath - 12/15/2006 11:40 AM
One can also become a very accomplished food crafter without killing a single animal.
From my experience, you have to be a pretty decent level cook before you can even think about trying a roast, anyway.
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hmmm time to respond
for armor i have drogo provide what is needed to his tailor friend, hides silk cotton what is needed but not excess
for food he hunts or forages and cooks over a fire or picks fruit or berries or fishes and cooks them
or sometimes he has them raw doesnt matter hes wild anyway
his staff was found and shaped by his own hands he traded for the magic to go on it when he had found something someone else wanted
his other items he either gathered the parts to create them and had his friends make them who are all some sort of crafter or for his magic ones he used the coin he earned from helping
some things come from when you least expect them too
he still has coin saved on leaves rolled up and hidden in the bank and the man inside makes surethey stay safe
for him to be called less then druid or having violated his oaths not hardly
to tend the forest and protect the fragile harmony of the wilds you have to be able to counteract what poachers and hunters and other enemies may bring in their goals of destruction
they will use magic and spells and fancy armor and weapons
i use what my oaths allow and then augment them with my skills to protect those under my care
am i a tank to kill everything
no
but im a cheetah with shocking claws and teeth that is very hard to hit in a toe to toe conflict
we gather and forage
are we as good as choppers and miners
perhaps perhaps not
but we are druids so why does it matter
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Very well then, I shall take more advantage of the bounty of nature since it is an essentially infintisimal resource (ignoring the fact that the clounds are always covering the sky, the sun is blocked out and it is often quite dark and providing poor growing conditions for everything.)
you need to take green wood and then treat it to make sturdy weapons and shields. And as Dorgonath said, to quote Tool "This is necessary...Life feeds on life", its about living in balance with nature, not trying to remove yourself from all connections with it on the offchance you might accidentally swallow a bug.
If I was capable of gathering wood I would. 2 days I've been foraging for wood, about 10 attempts... no successes so far.
Alright.. alright... you made your points. I don't agree with them at all, I think its adjusting druids to fit with the server as it stands, but meh. I shall gather more gems, take more plants, kill more fish, more animals knowing that its alright for druids to do so here... acting in a way I think is -very- undruid like.
A druid would not, for example, go and kill every boar in a particular area in one go, but he would perhaps kill one and use its resources as best he could.
Sadly to get anywhere in crafting you have to do just that.
Druids, in my opinion, are among the most restricted classes in the game, and that's true for D&D in general. Yet in these restrictions are some very interesting possibilities for RP.
No... Druids in D&D are not anywhere as restricted as they are here. Druids in D&D can wear metal armour if they follow certain faiths, they have a multitude of spells that have been removed from their spell list that clerics and mages still have. In D&D druids are -the most powerful class, here they are nowhere near.
I don't want druids to be powerful, I don't -want- to be powerful. I just want to be able to make my own staff... or even better like the Katian section says: A staff is 'given' to me. As it stands its not really possible unless one is willing to spend days in the hopes of getting a bit of wood.
Whatever happened t nature 'watching' over its guardians? Providing for its guardians? It doesnt. Druids are so heavily restricted that one could be a better druid (defender of nature) by playing a cleric of a nature diety.
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Chnmmr - 12/15/2006 6:11 PM
I don't agree with them at all, I think its adjusting druids to fit with the server as it stands, but meh.
Respectfully, that's their job.
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I think you misunderstand me.
I'm not telling you to play against the way you feel is "correct" to RP your druid. I'm only offering possible alternatives. But if you don't feel they're right, then please do not RP in that manner. Though understand that RP and IC choices will ultimately affect what your character will and will not do. If you want to limit your druid to not consuming plants and not killing any animals for any reasons, then that is your call.
My own druid character has a few ranks in food crafting and even fewer in gem craftng...that's about it. I doubt he'll ever be much of a crafter ever.
One last note on game mechanics....
There's only so much we can do within NWN. And while the skies are filled with clouds, it would take a huge effort for us to go through and tweak all of CNR appropriately to reflect that.
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Dorganath - 12/15/2006 6:28 PM
...it would take a huge effort for us to go through and tweak all of CNR appropriately to reflect that.
And also, the cries of "Unfair" would probably resound server-wide.
My suggestion would be that if you're a druid, crafting isn't the way to go (though you could probably gemcraft and stay in character. Druids respect nature, and the method of mineral extraction used in Layo is non-invasive.) Druids are highly restrictive, even in their background given in the Handbook. You knew that coming in.
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My character wears and crafts armors made from animals. I do, however, roleplay it. It would be a waste to just let an animal rot since the meat and skin can provide food and warmth for people as well as animals.
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Hmmm druids complaining about not being able to use natures bounty.........most interesting
As any druid that spews this fuzzy dogma, and has one scrape of leather, one splinter of wood or one speck of metal or gems on thier person are pretend druids........oh wait this is a game and this stuff is not real..........so take what you can, and if you see one of these fuzzy druids givin a fella a hard time in game ....by all means walk up and point out they are wearing dead animal hides and carrying dead wood from trees and they are eating the very nature they are trying to brow beat some poor person about ....druids like it when you point out thier hypocritical nature, It helps them grow and become one with the maddness
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The key for the usual druidness is "moderate". Take from nature, but only what you have to... :)
There are of course those "extreme druids", too... hehe!
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A druid would not, for example, go and kill every boar in a particular area in one go, but he would perhaps kill one and use its resources as best he could.
Sadly to get anywhere in crafting you have to do just that.
you are only forgetting one very very very important thing about layo and its the time. What you think people are doing daily by going arond and harvesting a lot of wood in 10 minutes actualy took a lot more time to do IC. Remember that the standard of time is not the same, in fact if I remember corectly 1 RL day is 2 weeks in game.
By taking that into account if you decide to go and get a few things, you did not go all head out and chop, killed and harvest every thing in like 10 min IC no you did that in many many hours, just the walk and the stalk to look at the old animal that is barely surviving, or to make sure it is not a femal with cubs. To go around the forest and getting the wood from trees that are not progressing due to being overshadowed by the older trees and putting a strugle on the growth of the tree that you are facing. The many hours walking around to find a bush of cramberies and by luck when you actualy find one there is 2 or 3 more in its vacinity.
Time is an extreamly important factor IC but there is one also in RL that you have to concider. Who said that you needed to absolutly advance to a high degree in any craft within a month. I'm going to give you the example of Rain. IT took me a good what 4 months if not more to get him to where he is now, and hes not that high. Oh yes hes what the 4rth in line for infusing ( was 4th now is 7th due to lack of supplies and not playing him as much), but realy take a look on how many people are infusing and youll see its not hard to get to where i am just because of the fact its not an art that is popular du to the fact that if you dont do everything for yourself, you are totaly dependable on the craft of others, and that is what Rain is. He works with a team of crafter, providing them with some materials they need and in return they provide him with the enchanted gems, the staff, the fine cut (at first) gems he needed to work his craft.
Protecting nature and the balance is not stopping to use nature, its only making sure that what you do is not overexploiting nature in keeping in mind the time diference there is with IC and RL. In the time of the celtic druids, do you realy think they did not actualy go and get the items they needed to brew their healing potions and stuff? They all had to learn from a mentor. Its only in this game that we think that for Druids and Cleric all comes naturaly, when in fact what a lot of you are forgeting, is that your persona had to learn from mentors that they had these abilities first and how to use them in the apropriate manner.
SO yes a druid can become good at what he does in crafting, might be longer than other RL and even longer IC, and that is a perfect way of rping that you are learning a craft with going very slowly in it to make sure you are not "defiling" nature.
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I would say again that not all crafts are appropriate for druids because of the amount of resources some of them take and the conflict they bring with dogma.
By the same token, tailoring would probably be a poor choice for an Aeridinite because there are a limited number of things one can do in that craft without killing lots of animals.
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I agree, but it still comes down to how you r are rping the time in game. Lex has not realy set onto a craft, he did some crafting with wood but only as part of a gift for someone. I dont realy know if I will be doing any crafting with him except for enchanting for potions. But like i said, it may be longer for druids or Aeridinite to become good in anycraft as long as you go slowly and only use things you got out of nessecity, like the pelt of animals because you were attacked and you needed to eat.
It's only the want and the impatience of people that make them rush through crafting. I admit that sometime I feel like i wish i was better,but to rp truly within the views of his dogma, beside the gift he made, everything else crafting wise he does slowly.
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I'm bumping this thread, asking the team to reconsider changing the roll used (or the timer).
Most of the arguments both pro and con have been made above, so I'm not going to waste too much space reiterating them. To my mind, it goes far more against the druidic ethos (for most druids) to buy from someone who cuts down trees (even in a forest friendly manner), than to teach oneself to craft using what nature provides the individual druid. It's just very difficult to understand why druids shouldn't be able to easily work with nature's bounty, to make a few tools for their use. Especially given the relative paucity of spot/search enhancing gear in the game, it does seem a bit unfair that the mechanic is geared to the class, rangers, that don't actually mechanically need it.
I'm not asking for foraging give the same amount of wood that cutting can give, and I realize that the the system is certainly preferable to one where druids can't harvest wood at all, but it gets very frustrating when every other class can gather every cnr without a possibility of not getting anything.
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I agree with arguments on both sides of the fence here, but even if its not as much as you get from cutting down trees a druid should be able to find a little more than what is provided. It really makes sence for them to be able to find what they need to use for their own goods.
And what about foraging for skins. Why wouldnt a druid be able to happen apon, say, a pride of lions and search around for where one has died and retrieve the skin.
I try to rp that I only take the sick and dying animals, but it would kinda make as much sence that they could forage for skins as for wood or food.
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To my mind, it goes far more against the druidic ethos (for most druids) to buy from someone who cuts down trees (even in a forest friendly manner), than to teach oneself to craft using what nature provides the individual druid. It's just very difficult to understand why druids shouldn't be able to easily work with nature's bounty, to make a few tools for their use.
A bite at a time here. Chopping 'trees'... I have never seen it as chopping a tree. To me, the tree disappearing is only a mechanic that says that all the good branches or branches with in reach are taken. Of course it depends on the size of the tree, but most harvestable trees are old trees that have a very large circumference. Very hard to make a bow from a tree trunk. Instead, there are only certain small circumference branches that are flexible enough to make a bow without a lot of work. Shield on the other hand are made from larger branches, but not tree trunks. Plus, how are you going to carry a whole tree? It only make sense that when someone is foraging or chopping at a tree, s/he is only collecting branches about six feet in length and about two to four inches in diameter. Most trees will prosper from this type of pruning. It normally produces more limbs and makes a tree 'fully'.
In summary, pruning promotes growth, new limbs and generally makes a tree more healthy.
Especially given the relative paucity of spot/search enhancing gear in the game, it does seem a bit unfair that the mechanic is geared to the class, rangers, that don't actually mechanically need it. .
As far as picking branches up from the ground or foraging, how long will a branch last on the ground before it is no longer usable due to rot and water damage? Not long at all. In addition, how would a healthy branch with the dimension stated above end up on the ground in the first place? Wind storm or something in the tree that caused it to break off. This again supports the fact that these branches will have to be a small diameter branch.
Rangers are very resourceful. They can make the most out of things that they have grown up using. A ranger will use what ever is available. If there are good branches on the ground and they are all s/he needs, then why climb a tree to get more. Rangers should be efficient and not abusive because nature is also their livelihood.
I'm not asking for foraging give the same amount of wood that cutting can give, and I realize that the the system is certainly preferable to one where druids can't harvest wood at all, but it gets very frustrating when every other class can gather every cnr without a possibility of not getting anything.
There is a limit to the number of branches. So if you forage and then chop, you will NOT exceed the limit. For example, you search the ground for branches you find four branches. Then you climb the tree and get some more branches. The most you would be able to find is six. Forage + Chop will not exceed 10. However, since druids cannot chop, maybe a 'druid modifier' that may increase your chance to find up to the 10? This could be rp'd as a tree 'giving up' its branches or lowering its branches that it needs 'trimmed'.
From what I have gathered from your last statement, there is a chance that you can forage and not find anything. Whereas, all other CNR is guaranteed at least one item. Is this a foraging issue or is it a 'unable to get at least one item' issue on a certain CNR?
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Just to address you initial point, my description of "chopping" was a mechanical description, not an RPed one.
From what I have gathered from your last statement, there is a chance that you can forage and not find anything. Whereas, all other CNR is guaranteed at least one item. Is this a foraging issue or is it a 'unable to get at least one item' issue on a certain CNR?
To me, it's more the ability to get at least one piece of CNR per outing (via foraging). I'm not really concerned that foraging produces less wood on average, as you've described Twidget, I don't think it makes RP sense that it would.
The roll for foraging wood is 2d0+ search + spot against a DC of 30.
So if you have no ranks in either skill, you'll find wood on about one out of six trips that you take to get it (11+10+9.../400). This is really too small to be meaningful.
Pallena, casting empowered fox's cunning and cat's grace, and wearing jaguar armor (which she owns just for foraging), can get a maximum of 15 for combined search and spot, which means she's getting wood somewhere around three out of four trips. This may not sound like cause for complain, but it really can be disheartening to not even -get- to the crafting bench on fairly regular basis, especially when you consider it in conjunction with the timer.
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what about changing the wait time of 90 to say 60..? im saying this as there is alot of forests around and searching from one to another is fruitless while foraging..taking 30 minutes off wouldnt unbalance the system would it?