The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dorganath on January 30, 2007, 07:23:19 AM
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Guys...this comes up now and again, and it seems the time has come again.
It is against the server's rules to lure monsters to pick them off one-by-one.
It is against the server's rules to drag monsters and hostile NPCs back to towns and other PCs when your character gets in over his/her head so that someone else can take care of the creatures you cannot.
Now, every time this comes up, some people respond with one or more of a number of reasons why they don't agree with this perspective. We've heard them all, trust me. Some of the top ones, and the list is by no means limited to these, are:
* Why should my character stand around and die when he would and could run to safety? * Why should my character stand around and die when there's (some NPC) there who can kill the monster for me? * Spawns weren't where they were supposed to be. * They'd be too hard for my character to kill if I didn't lure them one at a time. * People should know that the world is dangerous and just be ready for it, even while sitting in town.
The list goes on.
The fact is, we ask you not to do it because it's selfish and does not take other players and their characters, and in many cases one's own alignment, into account. You may think there's no harm. Unfortunately, that's not true. Here are just a couple examples from yesterday alone:
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34138&posts=3&start=1 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=34138&posts=3&start=1)
and
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34143&posts=2 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=34143&posts=2)
The latter is a loss of items that probably represents many RL weeks of work in terms of gathering and crafting lost because someone brought hostile NPCs into what should be a safe area and distracted the AI by running near someone's ox. This clearly led to one very upset player.
Be aware of the consequences of your actions.
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On luring: Is it against the rules for a group of people to lure a group of enemies to a safer fighting spot, so as to not continue to spawn more enemies as the fight rages deeper into the area?
On Dragging: Is it alright to run around in circles area from entrances and exits in the hopes that some friendly PC will come and save you?
Not questioning the authority of the rules, but rather if these situations are violations. The first I think is a rather reasonable, (and RPable) tactic, but that is subject to the DM team.
The second is a bit of an abuse of the NWN engine ... but is a much better alternative to standing and dieing, or luring the enemies to places where other people could be endangered.
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*Has a response to this but will elucidate later*
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luring? You mean people dont just rush into 18 giants and fight them? *looks around confused*
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Well i hope some one makes this understandable this time. As from what i heard today DDC is the only allowable tactic that one can use.
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DDC(drunken dwarven charge)? *fond memories* I remember when beginning layo, coining that up. dont know if it was used before I came or not..
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Praylor Falcus - 1/30/2007 11:35 PM Well i hope some one makes this understandable this time. As from what i heard today DDC is the only allowable tactic that one can use.
To quote myself:
It is against the server's rules to lure monsters to pick them off one-by-one.
It is against the server's rules to drag monsters and hostile NPCs back to towns and other PCs when your character gets in over his/her head so that someone else can take care of the creatures you cannot.
Can I put this another, simpler way? Perhaps "If you cannot manage an entire spawn, consider not taking it on at all."
or...
If it cannot be handled safely alone without exploiting the AI and the relatively low perceptual range of the monsters, then do not attempt it solo.
There is no realistic reason why one creature would not notice the sounds of battle nearby... yet this is exactly what happens when people intentionally lure from the edge of NPC perception.
Do mistakes happen? Sure. Do people stumble into a new area and find themselves face-to-face with more than they can handle? Sure. That's not the point, nor is it the problem.
The problem comes when people knowingly exploit the holes in monster AI in order to artificially make the fight easier.
The problem comes when people knowingly run back to some NPC or other friendly creature to have them manage what they could not.
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when i was last on alot of the new folks were leading mobs into the town and not caring when told that these mobs can and do kill peoples oxens because of there actions. yes sadly some just dont care . I watch over my oxen and where i park her more carefully now.
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Let me clarify one thing regarding luring...
I'm not suggesting that one not use sound tactics in confronting monsters. By all means, use the most appropriate, realistic tactic. But when a group of 5 or 6 creatures are standing close together, and you inch forward just enough so that one of them sees you and the others do not, that strays beyond tactics and into exploitation.
The so-called "DDC" is in fact not the only allowed tactic, but perhaps it may take some thought, preparation and an appropriate party to figure out what other tactics are available.
And as a general statement:
These requests we make aren't unreasonable. They're here to help protect the fun and spirit of the game world. When a few people exploit or abuse, everyone else has to deal with the fallout from it. We're asking only for respect of the game world and respect of your fellow players.
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Dorganath is right. There are strategies that involve the use of varied classes in parties. So for example clerics, mages (wizards and sorcerers) and fighters. Its not just a matter of a bunch of fighters, going "Hold, block, fight" Rinse and repeat. I have done many varied tactics with parties and it makes things so much easier when put to plan.
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I'm almost hesitant to post his, but here are a couple tactics I've used or seen used myself that I suppose could also be considered exploitive of the poor AI in NWN.
1) The Run-by - this I've used to get past several large spawns at once, usually of Ogres. How it works is you run past the spawn close enough to get the attention of all the Ogre, but because Ogre Berserkers spend a moment getting themselves worked up into a rage a few forget what is was they were getting angry about when you pass out of their sight, the rest will chase you down though, and this usually amounts to about half of the Ogres that were spawned. Best tactic then is to find a corner, doorway, or stand in the narrow gap between a column and a wall where only 2-4 Ogres can reach you at once to fight these big fellows off. In essence you're using their size against them, as well as their relative stupidity in the case of those 'forgetful' ones. One bit of advice is that you better be sure you're not too low AC-wise or you'll get clobbered bad by even just one or two orges.
2) The Shooting Gallery - This one I've seen used in groups with more than one ranged attacker and at least a fighter or two. Again, a whole spawn, or at least a large portion of a spawn is engaged by the fighter(s) first, then the ranged atackers alternate their firing pattern so that one fires, then the other, then the first again. The AI gets confused trying to decide who to atack and will often run back and forth between the two sets of ranged attackers, never quite reaching one before being distracted by the other again. Meanwhile the fighter also works in the middle to distract any in the spawn who might stray too close to the shooters.
Either way, these tactics shouldn't be used by inexperienced characters who cannot handle at least two or three of the creatures on their own, simply because they don't always work exactly the way you hope, but they usually do. But at least they're not luring.
Personally I think it's just as much an exploit of the AI to memorize the exact locations, numbers, tactics, and spell-casting progressions of spawns and use that information to take them on as though your character(s) are pre-cognitive. But that's likely something that's rather unavoidable to some extent if you travel the same areas many times.
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An other way is just to make shure that noe jsut one follow yo but you have at least 2-4, even giants you can do this if you find a suiteable spot to defend. Also Making sure you are not along when you do this takes away the danger but puts more danger as the spawn get taugher.
The shooting galery as Nehetsreve said is a good tactics but by my experience with rain, both archer can fire at the same time if the ogre is dead in the middle of them he will just turn to each arrow that gets him. Warning, that tactics does not work with every monsters out there and not on all Ogres.
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Ideally we should all drop our weapons on the ground, lagspawn into a frenzy and roll 1s vs the soul mother. that's how Drizzt would do it. ;)
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Just my two coppers on tactics - choke points are your friends.
Edited for clarity:
A solid strategy is to have someone (preferably someone fast who can still take a hit or two from the creatures in question) enter the room with said creatures. He or she may then attract the creatures' attention in whatever fashion suits their fancy (fireballs, arrows, Hammer of the Gods, obscene hand gestures...). They then turn and run like the wind, down back through the doorway from whence they came.
The hapless (pick one) ogres/giants/halflings/renders/vampires/badgers follow, eager for blood... and run, one by one, into the pair of melee fighters arrayed on either side of the door, the pair of ranged (preferably rogue) fighters who already have their bows out, and a mage, cleric, or combinations thereof. Monsters die, good triumphs, and it's Iron Hammer time! As long as the first enemy (or two) block the rest from approaching, and the melee fighters can keep them pinned in the doorway, this strategy is generally sound. (It can be wise to keep clerics next to your melee fighters, if there's serious risk of damage being dealt out.)
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OH, well that clears that up. *rolls eyes*
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Nehetsrev - 1/31/2007 5:54 AM
1) The Run-by - this I've used to get past several large spawns at once, usually of Ogres. How it works is you run past the spawn close enough to get the attention of all the Ogre, but because Ogre Berserkers spend a moment getting themselves worked up into a rage a few forget what is was they were getting angry about when you pass out of their sight, the rest will chase you down though, and this usually amounts to about half of the Ogres that were spawned. Best tactic then is to find a corner, doorway, or stand in the narrow gap between a column and a wall where only 2-4 Ogres can reach you at once to fight these big fellows off. In essence you're using their size against them, as well as their relative stupidity in the case of those 'forgetful' ones. One bit of advice is that you better be sure you're not too low AC-wise or you'll get clobbered bad by even just one or two orges.
2) The Shooting Gallery - This one I've seen used in groups with more than one ranged attacker and at least a fighter or two. Again, a whole spawn, or at least a large portion of a spawn is engaged by the fighter(s) first, then the ranged atackers alternate their firing pattern so that one fires, then the other, then the first again. The AI gets confused trying to decide who to atack and will often run back and forth between the two sets of ranged attackers, never quite reaching one before being distracted by the other again. Meanwhile the fighter also works in the middle to distract any in the spawn who might stray too close to the shooters.
Both tactics assume the AI to be -3. Case one: the ogres are just getting VERY angry and standing still a while hyperventilating. Case two: the ogres have such bad Attention Deficit Disorder that they remember only the last arrow in their hide.
Honestly, luring one, two or 3 monsters off is no different RP-wise than being a sneaky killer ala any number of games that use "stealth kills". The flip-side of Dorg's argument that no monster would NOT hear an ally die nearby is contradicted by the assumption that there is absolutely no way to kill a man without him screaming loud enough for his friends to hear. Snap a neck, slit a throat, sap to the back of the head and all you have are a few gurgles and a plop. NWN as it stands simply does not factor these in, making every rogue character SCREAM at the top of his lungs every time he performs a sneak attack, alerting every monster in a half mile radius. That's equally as "bad RP" as luring one at a time that strays from the group, thought he AI cant help metagaming its perception of PCs in an area radius.
I agree luring one at a time is cheap, but as stated numerous times in a plethora of threads on the same topic before, two or three at a time is fine, so long as you're not luring to the extent that EVERY battle is a pushover with your character suffering zero damage. The difference being that if you do the same thing over and over with no challenge for the same xp, it's cheap, whereas skinofthe teeth pacing and chokeholds is fair game.
By pacing I mean lure one or two, and specifically advance so that as you kill them, you get a steady stream of one or two more joining in the battle as you go along. Also killing things around the corner so that they DO scream and alert a few friends to join is good too. Keep a good pace like you're running a gauntlet vs having a one on one duel with the whole tribe and time enough to heal up in between each bout.
Common Sense.
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There is another technique well suited to mage and magical parties, that is to hit the entire spawn with an area affect spell that will stun or trap them, and use area damage such as fireball to quickly turn the creatures into Ash. Again this is explotive of the AI and the spawn. Would and entire tribe of ogres/monsters be standing so close together? So we have at least five tactics, all of which make use of the AI and spawn location.
1) Luring and picking off. Perhaps favoured by rogues and craven backstabbers party.
2) Running past and using a choke point. The method of fighters with a shield (for ac).
3) Arrows from two sides. The method of an archer party.
4) Pacing, which is a variation of 1, where the party continues to move forward to bring more into the fight.
5) Stun and Explode. Sometimes just explode with a powerful enough Magi. The arcane and divine party.
All of these exploit the AI and spawn location.
Some of this could reduced at the sacrifice of saftey on the roads (and maybe increased server load).
Make the triggers for spawns out of line of sight of the spawn location, and have the monsters wander. Static monsters are probably the biggest reason that tactic (1) is unrealistic. Where the characters inch forward. If the monsters wander around then picking off monsters one at a time would require more skill and stealth. I fear however that this is not practical in the world of Layonara or it would aready exist.
Just some thoughts.
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Most spawn points are already out of the line of sight, so that one does not normally see them spawn in. There are exceptions to this, but as a general rule it holds.
Wandering is already done by spawned encounters. Statically placed creatures do not wander. The reason for the difference is that spawned encounters eventually time out, whereas placed creatures do not. Wandering makes for an AI/pathfinding hit even when the area is empty (read: more lag). So you are correct...there are reasons things are the way they are.
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lonnarin - 1/31/2007 4:54 PM
Common Sense.
Yes!
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As a "noob" (ahem) about to submit a rogue type I am extremely confused by this discussion. What, exactly, are the stealth tactics that are allowed (if any?) I'm not trying to be contrary in a discussion about a PW I don't know much about but this is kind of scaring me off.
Also, is there a place besides here (and a few other threads I found) where the exact rules as to what is considered cheating and what isn't can be found? In short I'm used to PnP and, for example, having a rogue "distract" a few monsters to get them to leave the group, or backstabbing the sentry without alerting the pack is not only allowable but pretty much standard. After all even a high level rogue will usually lose in a fair fight.
Thanks.
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This is the page that you are after.
http://nwn.layonara.com/Player%20Rules
Under Exploiting. I think that is the closest you are going to get in terms of rules.
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Dorganath - 2/1/2007 11:28 AM lonnarin - 1/31/2007 4:54 PM
Common Sense.
Yes!
*Pseudonym wonders how many posts, how many megabytes, how much wasted time might have been saved if those two words were stickied at the top of each and every forum category.* Common sense and courtesy, they go a long way. *Pseudonym fears he is turning into Stephen, unable to gaze upon a forum topic without passing comment or offering opinion.:)*
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*Laughs heartily.* Honestly, I WAS going to stay away from this thread, but no, Pseudo, you had to entice me. ;)
Anyhow, my thoughts are honestly mixed on the subject of luring... Dragging monsters to NPCs is just awful, though even I've done it once or twice in my time. (Three times, actually.)
Luring, though. I can understand reasons why it's both an unrealistic, exploitative tactic, as well as a perfectly reasonable, realistic one. On the one hand, creatures' perception radii aren't so realistic, considering that all it would take is "Grunt, grunt, I see a baddie!" to bring a whole string of monsters after the PC. On the other hand, if all a monster is supposedly noticing is something odd and unidentifiable, they could always wander off... Especially if the other monsters are all scattered out. Drawing out scouts is effectively just "luring" the monsters furthest away from a widely-scattered force, and vice versa.
I'm not sure if that all makes sense, but... It's been a long day.
I've never really seen anything particularly "wrong" with luring, but I'll keep it in mind to not do it. *Chuckles.*
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An example of realistic tactic.
In many cases.. The spwan/group of enemies is guarding something, like a camp, house. Or maybe CNR like ore, deposits. If then PC gets some of the groups attention and make them follow him its make perfect sence that not the whole group would follow him and leave the Camp/ ore unguarded.. so if a group of 6-8 enemies standing there it is totaly okey to get 2-3 to follow you and kill them first and then take on the rest.
The argument that the enemies that decided to stay and guard the camp can hear the battle and come helping I don't buy.. this because distance in game and in reality and also time in game and reality is different things..
When luring a few monsters from the group to follow you, you get close enough for them to spot you.. that should be about 500-800 meters in reality in an open field.. atleast.. then you get them to follow you away from the group so they can't either hear you or spot you.. thats about 1000-1500 meters.. In game it looks like you are standing 10 meters away and having an hard battle.. But in fact there are 1000 meters away.
Atleast this is how I see the world of layo.. I mean when I travel from Prantz to Sauderia it takes 10 min and it looks like it could be about 3000 meters.. but in fact it takes a day to travell that distance and it is 10 miles.. not 3000 meters..
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Frelinder - 2/1/2007 9:15 AM
The argument that the enemies that decided to stay and guard the camp can hear the battle and come helping I don't buy.. this because distance in game and in reality and also time in game and reality is different things..
When luring a few monsters from the group to follow you, you get close enough for them to spot you.. that should be about 500-800 meters in reality in an open field.. atleast.. then you get them to follow you away from the group so they can't either hear you or spot you.. thats about 1000-1500 meters.. In game it looks like you are standing 10 meters away and having an hard battle.. But in fact there are 1000 meters away.
In the last thread (http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=32780&start=1) on this (I think it was the last one, anyway), there were comments about the size of areas. Ed said this in response to a post saying caves were supposed to be huge areas:
That's not correct. If we wanted to build huge caves, we'd use large areas and make them huge caves. Most caves are not thousands of feet, and on a side note, sounds carries and echoes very well underground so everyone would hear sounds of battle. It's just that NWN isn't programmed to handle that.
The thread continues later explaining some of the limitations of NWN on area sizes, so that some areas (like caves) are probably scaled correctly and are as big as they look, while other areas are not to scale (like some outdoor areas) because it's just not possible. Some outdoor areas probably are to scale, and just represent a small patch of the land between points A and B.
So, your explanation of luring a few away only works sometimes in some places, and there's no particular way to know when it should or shouldn't apply. It's probably a lot easier to stick with Dorganath's simple rules from above than try to over-think things and come up with explanations and/or excuses for every situation.
Dorganath - 1/31/2007 12:46 AM
"If you cannot manage an entire spawn, consider not taking it on at all."
or...
If it cannot be handled safely alone without exploiting the AI and the relatively low perceptual range of the monsters, then do not attempt it solo.
I'd repost the common sense one, but the only thing common about it is that everyone has his own definition of "sense." That's why we need the occasional friendly reminder on luring and dragging.
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I totaly agree about that some places are in fact as big as they are meant to be... and some supposed to be alot bigger.. But for example the forest of mists is not just a few trees.. is an large forrest.. if getting a few giants attention and make them follow you and then kill them out of sight from the others they can't hear you either.. When a PC is standing infront of a spawn and they can't see, and probably not hear him either..thats because he is to far away, and not because of that all creatures are near sighted.. so even the game mecanisms do infact proclaim that the distance are longer then it actually appears.
I'm not arguing about this to justify luring.. I just wan't to point out that it do make sence and that its not unrealistic to kill a group out of sight from other enemies without them notice it."
Dorganath - 1/31/2007 12:46 AM
I also agree about this and one should use common sence..
"If you cannot manage an entire spawn, consider not taking it on at all."
or...
If it cannot be handled safely alone without exploiting the AI and the relatively low perceptual range of the monsters, then do not attempt it solo. "
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By all rights, a giant would be able to see farther than a person on the ground. But as you approach a giant spawn, you can see all of them before any of them can see you.
Therein lies the key to this whole mess.
The perception range of most creatures in-game is artificially short, which is why one creature in a spawn may be able to see an approaching person or party while the others in the spawn may not, even if there are no physical obstructions to their line-of-sight and they are all relatively clustered around the same point.
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I am extremely confused. . .
obviously, given the variety of responses and opinions here the "common sense" rubric is less effective than it should be.
The dragging issue I think is fairly clear. I did this once, and immediately (both IC and OOC) realized how idiotic it was, and I will not repeat it.
The luring issue I think is extremely fuzzy. For instance, a few levels ago, I would go into the Hlint crypts, and I would kill zombies by using a ranged weapon, running away any time they got close. I never thought this was inappropriate; zombies are slow, so that seemed the best tactic. Is this considered exploitative? it's certainly luring, but I don't see it as a game exploit. What about against creatures such as spiders, that don't reveal themselves until you get close? I have made a habit of killing creatures around spiders with a ranged weapon, so as not to upset the spiders, before rushing in. From what I've read here, this would be considered an exploit, is that correct?
I've read the server rules, and I thought I was applying common sense. I realize that you can't create rules that will apply to all situations, but perhaps if you could give a few examples it would be helpful, especially to those of us who are rather new.
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Luring is fuzzy, you're right. As I said above, there's a fine line between luring and good tactics.
The examples you give, in my own personal opinion, do not constitute luring. They are tactical. If you're using a ranged weapon and the enemy gets too close, of course you're going to run away a bit so that your weapon is more effective, etc.
Getting the attention of a group, bringing them back to a better fighting spot, or perhaps across a trap, tricking them to go through the crossfire of archers, adding distance between you and an enemy to keep from getting hit...these are all tactics that make RP sense and logical sense.
Moving toward a group of creatures just close enough for one of them to see you (and not the other that is standing next to him), bringing that creature to you and fighting just out of visual range of any others makes absolutely no RP or logical sense. It's meta-gaming at the very least, because you, the player, knows you can do that. Your character should assume differently.
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Running ahead of slow creatures is called Kiting, (like the kite that you fly), actually, and isn't against server rules, as Dorg said.
A question, though... Or, rather, a scenario to run past which doesn't work with Pyyran any longer.
Mr. Stealth sneaks up to a group of monsters, in Stealth Mode. Now, his H/MS ranks are pretty high, and it would take a nice, lucky roll from one of those monsters to see him. Mr. Stealth waits until one of the monsters does roll that lucky Spot, and sneaks back to his group of DOOMDEATHDESTRUCTION fighters, trailing the curious/angry monster behind. The others stay where they are, having not spotted the curiosity that Mr. Stealth presented.
The question is, yea or nae?
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/1/2007 1:58 PM
Running ahead of slow creatures is called Kiting, (like the kite that you fly), actually, and isn't against server rules, as Dorg said.
A question, though... Or, rather, a scenario to run past which doesn't work with Pyyran any longer.
Mr. Stealth sneaks up to a group of monsters, in Stealth Mode. Now, his H/MS ranks are pretty high, and it would take a nice, lucky roll from one of those monsters to see him. Mr. Stealth waits until one of the monsters does roll that lucky Spot, and sneaks back to his group of DOOMDEATHDESTRUCTION fighters, trailing the curious/angry monster behind. The others stay where they are, having not spotted the curiosity that Mr. Stealth presented.
The question is, yea or nae?
Myself, I would say that's dependent on the INT of the enemies in question. For kobolds, goblins, ogre magi, and the like (anything with a decent INT score), the curious monster who spotted Mr. Stealth would say "Oh, look, fellows, an adventurer trying to sneak around. Let's kill him!"
If it were, however, a stag beetle, or a zombie, or anything suitably mindless and uncommunicative, I'd say that's fair game, rather than an exploit.
Ogres are a maybe.
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/1/2007 1:58 PM
The question is, yea or nae?
Turn it around.
Mr. Stealthy Enemy sneaks up to a group of characters, in Stealth Mode. Now, his H/MS ranks are pretty high, and it would take a nice, lucky roll from one of those characters to see him. Mr. Enemy waits until one of the characters does roll that lucky Spot, and sneaks back to his group of... Wait a minute.
Even the dumbest half giant has a good chance to ask, "Who dat?" if he spots someone sneaking about. The enemies our characters fight aren't utterly stupid, and aren't likely to just wander off after somebody without giving out a cry of alarm or excitement, even though NWN makes dumb stuff like that happen. This scenario sounds like abuse of the game to me.
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While not vindicating the idea of luring or dragging, I should like to point out that there are a number of times/locations where the spawning mechanism acts to the detriment of players as well. The example springing most readilly to my mind is that of the group of ogres/trolls/even inconveniently placed goblins that are 'invisible' until a party member crosses a certain threshhold. Playing a mage, I can easily take out a group of goblins - provided of course that I see them before I'm a mage-shaped pincushion. While I recognize that spawn triggers are finitely manipulable, I should also like to point out that if one seeks true 'realism', one must remember that the flaws in the system work both ways.
While this is not, as previously mentioned, an excuse to lure, drag, or otherwise manipulate the system in such a way as to reduce the 'realism' of the world or to endanger other Player Characters (or exploit the setting), things like the 'clumping' of monsters are simply a part of the game engine. Whether or not there is a reasonable ooc explanation for them all standing in a neat little bunch, there is only so much that this can be avoided - and a throng of monsters moving towards you to kill you can be just as lethal against you as a well-placed fireball against them.
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LightlyFrosted - 2/1/2007 2:08 PM While not vindicating the idea of luring or dragging, I should like to point out that there are a number of times/locations where the spawning mechanism acts to the detriment of players as well. The example springing most readilly to my mind is that of the group of ogres/trolls/even inconveniently placed goblins that are 'invisible' until a party member crosses a certain threshhold.
Ever hear of an ambush?
I'm not sure why you think that spawns are supposed to be purely beneficial to the players/characters, but that is surely not the case. We do try and keep things fair and try to make sure that they don't spawn directly on top of a person or party, but really, the monsters are out to kill you, not stand around and play pat-a-cake until you poke enough holes in them that they fall over dead.
Spawns are not meant to be beneficial. They're meant to be a challenge. If you meet that challenge and prevail, you get a positive reward. If not, you don't, and sometimes you get a negative reward. That's the nature of things.
Nowhere did we ever say that any one person should be able to beat any one spawn of appropriate CR at any time. The world is a dangerous place...be prepared.
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It is against the server's rules to drag monsters and hostile NPCs back to towns and other PCs when your character gets in over his/her head so that someone else can take care of the creatures you cannot.
To give an example of being inconsiderate or breaking server rules, when my character logged into the server I got started into the safe area of the Goblin wastelands. The place where the campfire is. Instantly my character was besieged by dwarven mercenaries. Heaven knows where they come from...the only place that I know where they come from is in the forests near the Haven's. If they can be dragged *that* far....thats certainly breaking the rules. Thankfully I survived and had no DTs
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The nearest Dwarven Mercenaries are next to the Road to Fort Llast. The dragging is still inexcusable, but at least it was only one AT.
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Okay I havent read every respose in this thread, so my question may have been answered in some way previously, and that is the case, sorry for wasting youre time with this :D
Anyhow I think my question revolves around a piece of this puzzle that hasent been discussed....
Okay here is my probelm. On the East server Ft. Mirtix is like, the main central hub for adventurers. Most times everyone either meets up in Mirtix to head out adventuring, or the party dissbands in Mirtix, and everyone logs off there.
Now the only way that I know back to Central or West from Mirtix, is by way of Arnax. Now if you have a high enough Hide/MS, or if you have the ability to cast invisibility (or something similar) you can go between Mirtix and Arnax mostly withought a care in the world. But I dont have either luxury.
There are only two area on the way that you absolutly have NO CHOICE but to run within an enemy spawns perceptual range. This would the Landalise plains (heading North, after you cross the river, there is no way to get to the next AT withought running within the spawns perceptual range). And the other would be the next area (if heading north), the Cloven Mountain (after you cross the bridge there is no way to get down the stairs witch will eventaly lead to the next AT withough running within the giants perceptual range).
So my problem arrises when I adventure with a party all night long and everyone is so tired that once we get back to Mirtix everyone just rests then logs. Then I come back on the next day, there is no one on and I am stuck in Mirtix.
Now I guess the argument could be made that I should have had a caster hit me with an Invis before they logged, when the party was dissbanding the night before. But there is not always a caster still with us when everyone is ready to go (like they had to leave in the middle of a dungeon, or on the way back to mirtix for some RL issue) witch happens ALOT on my trips through east. Suffice to say sometimes (not all the time) I end up stuck in Mirtix withought a single other soul on the server.
Now I see myself as having three options:
1. Use a different charector of mine to log into west or central, and find a player I know that is willing to come invis to Mirtix, and then escort me back.
Obviously this will not always be a viable option.
2. Use a different char to find a GM logged into one of the servers and/or use IRC to find a GM that is available to just port me back to Arnax, or whatever. Obviously this is not always a viable option.
3. Use my super duper monk speed, coupled with a good suply of aquisition belts to just run back. When running back I will end up having at least one Elite Giant Crusher of whatever clan (a particularly nasty casting giant if any party running through east were to get jumped at a transition by it, while traveling comepletely unbuffeed and unprepared) follow me to the North AT on the Landalise plains. Fortunatly there is a river on the plains so that neither the Bloodstone Forces spawn that I have to pass, nor the giant that may still be following me can cross, and after that im home free, no more spawns I have to run within perceptual range of.
Now my question is this:
If both option one, and two are unavailable, can I execute option three?
Or am I in clear violation of server rules, and I should NEVER attempt option three?
In witch case I cannot do anything until the former two options become available...
Anyhow, looking forward to youre input....
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This brings up an interesting point.I would vote for Option 4:
Place a 1000 True Portal in Miritix that leads to either Arnax or Wayfare.
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Bear in mind that with the many changes to the landscape in the next update, travel points are changing somewhat... so... don't sweat it.
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The rule I go by is if I'm left stranded, I either send a bird to a friend of my character's and ask for help out of the jam, or have Kell/Therise do his/her level best to get by whatever's blocking the way.
The understanding I've operated under since I joined the server is that dragging is never acceptable under any circumstances, to avoid complications later when someone says "Well, if X could run past a spawn he knows will follow him, why can't Y run away from a spawn that proved too powerful for him?"
(This is also why Kell keeps a Stardust of Shadon on him at all times. ;) )
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The primary problems with dragging and luring are when:
a) People use this tactic to exploit the AI, perceptual range and game mechanics in order to avoid facing encounters the way they were intended to be faced.
and/or
b) Leave, whether intentionally or inadvertently, one or more creatures at a transition or other ambush point such that someone coming by later is assaulted and often killed before they can realistically react in self-defense.
Regardless of the specifics of the situation, these are the key issues. Sometimes the latter case happens without a player knowing about it...or perhaps they did know about it and were able to escape. The responsible thing to do is to let people know, if you see anyone going that way, that there may be an unusual danger awaiting. This wouldn't be a problem if area transitions weren't very OOC and unfairly biased against the player.
Thankfully, the window of danger due to such circumstances is now relatively short. Under normal circumstances, the creatures should reset themselves in order to end up away from the transitions and such. Still, being aware of the issues and acting responsibly is the key, and it always has been.
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Actualy I usualy have a star dust of beyrl on me at all times, and have used like four or five of them for trips from Arnax to Mirtix and back.
It just so happened I had used my last one on that nights trip >.<
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Bumping this thread as a reminder to those who don't know the rules. :)
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also dont assume that the monsters will fall far enough behind and lose interest
as a cheetah i broke from combat with scorpions ran around the hill and then took off through the trans headed north
now little did i know these were genetically super ranger scorpions who could track through sand grass hillock and roadway
i found myself still being trailed upon entry to haven and kit had some fits till i could heal and then help finish them off
now up until this point i had never seen a spawn travel across five areas before in pursuit especially when the pursued is perm hasted with four paws at top speed
i was called on my retreat and hauling butt out of the desert as it was said i used kit to take care of them even though not intentional in the original action, yes i had used her to save my fuzzy tail in the end, and it made me feel bad after being called on it
i should have broken and tried to get to a spot to heal and use my spells instead of resorting to all out run for your life charlie brown
but i think since the last update now they dont use their bionic ranger tracking anymore and simply go back to their sandy wanderings, but of course i havent gone in to the desert in a while since then so they may be waiting for someone to think they will give up again
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Sometimes the AI will get smart and an attack order will cause it to follow you until it can make the attack. It's annoying, it usually doesn't happen, unless you're outnumbered and near death. (not actually, of course. it just seems that way.)
While luring to NPCs is a technicality and a yellow or red flag if a GM catches you doing it, sometimes that is what happens and it's more "in character" in my opinion to flee (for most characters, the Paladin rule applies :) ) than it is to stand your ground and die.
So long as you take care of your mess, ensure the area transitions are clean after the fact, then I think it is fine. If you are irresponsible about it, forget about the mess you potentially caused, and leave them to attack people as they come through, you need to consider how you feel about a community in general.
Another thing is, if you can't take care of it yourself, please break character and send a tell to someone you know. Sometimes going OOC will save someone's day, and if the RP barrier needs to be breached even slightly to prevent your mistake or running from causing someone else stress, it's entirely worth it
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Sometimes the AI will get smart and an attack order will cause it to follow you until it can make the attack. It's annoying, it usually doesn't happen, unless you're outnumbered and near death. (not actually, of course. it just seems that way.)
While luring to NPCs is a technicality and a yellow or red flag if a GM catches you doing it, sometimes that is what happens and it's more "in character" in my opinion to flee (for most characters, the Paladin rule applies :) ) than it is to stand your ground and die.
So long as you take care of your mess, ensure the area transitions are clean after the fact, then I think it is fine. If you are irresponsible about it, forget about the mess you potentially caused, and leave them to attack people as they come through, you need to consider how you feel about a community in general.
Another thing is, if you can't take care of it yourself, please break character and send a tell to someone you know. Sometimes going OOC will save someone's day, and if the RP barrier needs to be breached even slightly to prevent your mistake or running from causing someone else stress, it's entirely worth it
Yeah there was nothing like training the mithril golem into Dalanthar or leaving it at the transit spot before the changes were made to those areas =P